Curing depression with discipline?

[Miia]

Hey,

If anyone here is suffering from depression, or has a friend/family memeber who is, or just knows something about it, then maybe you could give me your opinion on the following idea (everyone else is welcome too).

I have a close friend who was diagnosed with manic depression 6 years ago. In addition to that he is a recovering alcoholic (he quit drinking 3 years ago but until this day there are about 2-3 incidents per year when he starts drinking and ends up doing so until someone stops him(usually 3 days)). His wife and kids left him some years ago because he was in an ultra self-destructive circle, drinking and smoking pot daily (there were some other issues too, like, he was cheathing on her constantly, lol). His wife divorced him and today he`s gotten to a point where he basically doesn`t have anybody except me and 2 other friends. We are basically his family now, we take care of him and he takes care of us, in his own way.
He is a very cool, intersting, affectionate etc person and I really really respect and like him... but he is totally uncapable of taking care of himself. At the moment he depends on us, 100%.
From elementary things like shopping and cleaning his home to more complicated things like, staying alive and sober. The last drinking episode took place a week ago, he is cutting down his meds and in addition to that suffered from insomania - he didn`t sleep in 8 days and ended up drinking. He got really really carried away, he tried to kill himself. We stopped him.My whole week was ruined because of that, I almost dropped out of uni because of that.

I know a lot of you will say that you can`t help someone if they don`t want to be helped, but I think he does want to get better...and he has said on many occasions that he knows he`s a burden and wants to get better.
And some of you will say that if he`s disturbing my life so much then I have to change that, e.g. focus on my life only but if I did that (not only me, but my friends too, we`re all feeling the same way pretty much) I`m afraid he`d die. And I don`t want that to happen.
So - I NEED HIM TO GET BETTER. He needs to get better for him, but for us also. I plan to move to another country soon with my bf (who is one of the 2 other friend) and the third friend already lives in another town. He needs to be able to live by himself by that time.

Our goal for now is to make him :
1. clean his home regularly (it`s such a mess, I`d get depression if I had to live there)
2. go for a walk with us 4 days a week at least (at 10 am twice a week and at 1pm on another 2 days)(he`s usual sleepingpattern involves going to bed at 7am and waking at 6pm - he needs to move into a normal time zone in order to function in the society)(plus, the last time he left his home was 2 months ago, HE NEEDS TO GO OUT, regularly)
3. we gave him 2 rats as a bday present, since he loves animals and we thought that they`d be a source of joy.... now, he cleans their cage like twice A YEAR. it stinks, I`m really scared for the rats health, this NEEDS to change.
4. make him do qi-kong every day (he`s a spacialist at it, he has given several martial art classes in the past and admits that it helps to fight depression)

If he (and we) manages to make those things a routine then it`s time to move on, time to take him to movies, art shows, etc. Time to make him go shopping by himself and eventually join some club and start working again. We need to change his habits (sitting home 24/7 and watching movies all day) and re-introduce him with society.
I believe that having responsibilities and actually carring them out can have a positive effect on one`s mental state.

I wrote all those things on paper and added that he has to do those things NO MATER WHAT, it doesn`t matter how bad or low he is feeling. If he doesn`t do those things then he will get punished. We will take away his computer, cigarettes or something else. Violent huh? But I feel that after the last drinking episode we have every right to force him do these things. And no, he doesn`t have free will, we will not let him die.

Sorry, I got carried away. My initial question was that do you think that making him do those things, forcing him out of his comfort zone,will help him to get out of depression?
I probably should add that we are all suspecting that to a large extent his bad habbits are just HABITS and not caused by depression (by now anyways). He actually is in a good phase right now (let`s leave the drinking and insomania episode out) and we`re thiking that it`s time to shake him the **** up!

Thanks,

your sincerely, a very frustrated Miia.

[drakemer]

hi Miia,

Sending you hugs! Being a friend/caretaker of someone struggling with mental illness is a lot of work, and as you support him, you should not forget to take care of yourself. I suggest journaling, keeping up with your regular hobbies, etc. Also, your university might have a counseling center, if you need some extra help to handle the stress. And expressing your frustration on the forum is okay

Some thoughts:

-why is he reducing his medication? This seems like a strange decision to me...if he didn't sleep for eight days and tried to kill himself, his psychiatrist(s) and/or social workers absolutely must know for his safety. To me, that means his medications aren't working.
-he absolutely needs to see a therapist. You can support him, but he needs professional help.
-I like the idea of exercise and cleaning routines. Some mood therapy workbooks (e.g. Mind over Mood) suggest rating activities based on pleasure (1-10 how much did you enjoy) or mastery (1-10 how well did you complete the task). Few people actually enjoy house chores, but we do need to master them to take care of ourselves.
-maybe you should make to-do lists together? You can still "schedule" time for him to sit and watch movies - in fact, a more gradual transition will probably more effective - but also schedule exercise, grocery shopping, etc.
-If his house is really so messy, I would suggest scheduling 15 minutes at a time. I think it's much easier to start on a big task if you can say, "well, if this is really stressful, I can stop after fifteen minutes" or "I can't clean the whole house today - how overwhelming - but I can at least do fifteen minutes of cleaning."

Also, when I was in a mood therapy program, we were often asked to rate our moods and anxiety levels before and after activities - we did this in order to notice the effects on our health. Almost universally, moods were higher and anxiety was lower after playing games, doing exercise, etc.

I hope some of my comments are helpful!

[ginkgo]

It sounds like you have a strong karmic connection to him. I had a next door neighbor, Molly, that l was best friends with until she moved away. We talked a great deal. She said that out of all that talking I said one thing that was the best thing that she ever heard in her whole life.

I told her that in Buddhism, the worst thing that you can ever do is not rape and kill people but to take drugs.

Why? Because if you rape and kill or whatever, you will learn from it from the pain you feel. But when you take drugs (including medications) it stops you from feeling the pain so you do not learn. The purpose of life is to learn (learn to be happy).

There are many factors that can affect depression including what you do not consume. Some have been cured of it with consuming omega-3 oil. That is fat! So fat cured them. Your brain is 60% fat so Daniel Amen M.D. (the brain doctor) says that it is correct when people call you fathead!

Here is a webpage all about diet and depression with other ways to cure it. Also it sounds like your karma is to take care of this guy. But you have to make yourself the number one priority. That is the best chance of helping him.

Here is a lesson on being a lifeguard. In the Boy Scouts I had a merit badge for this and did a 5 mile swim, but I leaned the following from Baywatch (TV show). It is a great life lesson. Say you are a lifeguard and rescuing a guy and a wave comes and is about to bash the 2 of you into a pillar.

Do you put yourself between the pillar and him or do you put him (or her) between the pillar and you? You put him between the pillar and you. If he is knocked unconscious, you can still save the 2 of you. If you are knocked unconscious then both of you die! So the saying is "take care of yourself so you can take care of others." The key is in you.

[Miia]

-why is he reducing his medication? This seems like a strange decision to me...if he didn't sleep for eight days and tried to kill himself, his psychiatrist(s) and/or social workers absolutely must know for his safety. To me, that means his medications aren't working.

It`s a loooooong and complicated story (like his whole life, if he`d write an autobiography he`d earn millions) basically at one point his psychiatrist put him on a drug called Diazepam (it`s similar to Xanax), he got addicted to it. His doctor stopped prescribing him Diazepam but since he had been already abusing the drug and was addicted, he found other ways to get the drug. Due to changes in the healthcare system he wont be getting any diazepam since January 2010 (unless he finds another illegal way to get it). He started cutting back on the drug like a year ago already...he has moved from 12 pills a day to 5 (which is still way more than normal). He WANTS to free himself of the addiction but it takes a lot of time. Diazepam addiction takes a long time to cure, you have to cut back VERY slowly (a quarter of a pill in a week is the maximum speed) or you will get VERY disturbing withdrawl symptoms (cramps, intolerance of light and sound, insomania etc..not to menion mental sideffects). He cut back more than allowed due to the fear of running out of the drug too soon.... and ended up with insomania.


His psychiatrist has NO idea of this. And we can`t tell her either because if we did some people will get into serious trouble.


On the day he tried to commit suecide, I called his psychiatrist and told her what`s going on and asked what should I do. She just replied that unless her patient has agreed to our conversation, she cannot talk to me about him and suggested that we should call ambulence and get him into a mental institution. We wanted to do that but in the end didn`t since we were afraid that he would fool the paramedics and tell them that he is just drinking and was fooling around or smth, he can be very convincing. ... and when the paramedics would leave we would be facing a raging drunk lunatic who wouldn`t trust us anymore and we would end up having even harder time coping with him. We forced him to take 2 sleeping pills and didn`t leave him all night. He was sober by the morning, very shocked and ashamed at what he had done and we felt that the danger had passed, for this time. He hasn`t drank since then and assured us that he wont commit suecide.

He gets proffessional help, he has two theraphists working on him. But as his theraphist said, he is too smart for his own good and nothing seems to work for him.

-If his house is really so messy, I would suggest scheduling 15 minutes at a time. I think it's much easier to start on a big task if you can say, "well, if this is really stressful, I can stop after fifteen minutes" or "I can't clean the whole house today - how overwhelming - but I can at least do fifteen minutes of cleaning."

This sounds like a good idea but at the moment I`m feeling like we shouldn`t back down at all. You know the saying "you give the devil a finger and he takes your hand?" this is what I`m afraid at the moment. Like, in order for this to work we cannot back down at all or he&we wont be able to take this seriously... it will start with "please, I`ll o just the dishes today and everything else tomorrow" and end up with "I promise I will clean up by Chistmas"....

Also, when I was in a mood therapy program, we were often asked to rate our moods and anxiety levels before and after activities - we did this in order to notice the effects on our health. Almost universally, moods were higher and anxiety was lower after playing games, doing exercise, etc.

I like this idea, maybe he should also start journaling... at one point in his life he kept a emotion-journal and said that it helped a great deal...

Do you put yourself between the pillar and him or do you put him (or her) between and you? You put him between the pillar and you. If he is knocked unconscious, you can still save the 2 of you. If you are knocked unconscious then both of you die! So the saying is "take care of yourself so you can take care of others." The key is in you.

I need to remind this more often to myself!

I`ll check out your link later, hav to run right now.

But thank you both for answering

[James Reno]

I don't have depression, so I don't know first hand. But whenever I force myself to get up, move around, and drink more water I feel better. In addition this may help.

Set a goal that you can work on Together and that you are both excited about or can get excited about. Something that will benefit you both positively and keep your mind and bodies active. For example, set a goal to make $500 this month buying antiques in the country and selling them in the city. Or cleaning and painting each others house, or some such thing. Something where you can get a tangible result either money, or improved living condition etc. I.E. something that you can be proud of!

[aelle]

I haven't been depressed myself, but unfortunately have experience with manic-depressive friends and relatives. It sucks, kudos to you for helping your friend. Remember to take care of yourself too - you must be well, grounded and happy to be able to help others.

Manic depression (bipolar disorder) depends on real chemical inbalance in the brain, and if his meds aren't right, you friend will have a really hard time getting better. If you want to help him, you need to tell his doctors he's been self medicating. You don't have to name names of who's been providing him with drugs or covering his ass - but the doctors need to know. Also, isn't he on anything else than Xanax? This seems odd to my admittedly non-professional eye.

Also, if your friend tried to commit suicide once, you cannot take his word that he won't do it again. People don't try to commit suicide because they are too weak-willed not to do it, or because they aren't thinking straight or think they have no one to dissappoint. His promise won't hold him back next time he has a depressive episode.

Getting back to a routine and improving life hygiene can help, but only marginally compared to the groundwork that he needs to do first, with serious professional help. Please, stop enabling his lies and hiding things from his doctors.

Hugs, and best of luck.

[ginkgo]

They used to say this all the time but now it is forgotten. Drugs treat the symptoms but not the cause of the problem. Alcohol is a legal and popular drug.

On the site mentioned on my previous quote it has info from the 13th most cited psychologists of all of them living and dead. He feels that bi-polar is normal and everyone has it. But they only declare it at a certain level.

Say someone kills your best friend in front of you. Your brain releases all the feel bad chemicals. Is that a myth? If you exercise your brain releases all these feel good chemicals (endorphins). But there is no need to exercise at all. Just get someone to inject you with endorphins.

[NexusOfCompletion]

This is a very real and respectable thing you are doing for your friend. There is a mix of mentalitys on here and I am glad to see your compassion. I totally think that discipline is a great way to deal with depression. I have noticed that at times of my greatest despair, my life, thoughts, and actions are all out of balance. Over the summer I work, and because I'm not at the university I go out with friends and indulge every night. I quickly end up depressed and miserable, but when school come back I find balance and discipline. I seem to come and go in waves, the best part is I am learning and I know how to quickly bring myself back to a place of discipline. Your friend will just have to learn on his own.

[joyfulgrowth]

Originally Posted by NexusOfCompletion

There is a mix of mentalitys on here and I am glad to see your compassion. I totally think that discipline is a great way to deal with depression. I have noticed that at times of my greatest despair, my life, thoughts, and actions are all out of balance. Over the summer I work, and because I'm not at the university I go out with friends and indulge every night. I quickly end up depressed and miserable

Would you call that clinically depressed? There is a difference between feeling crappy for a while because of an unhealthy lifestyle, and being clinically depressed.

Once somebody is in a place like Miia describes, he probably hates himself so much for his depression, drug use and lack of discipline, that trying to push or motivate him may have the very opposite effect.

His psychiatrist has NO idea of this. And we can`t tell her either because if we did some people will get into serious trouble.

Miia, are you aware that you are currently taking responsibility for other people at the cost of your own needs ("I almost dropped out of uni because of that" and other quotes)???

And it might NOT be the path that serves him and those other people most on the long run.

If you don't want to speak to the psychiatrist, please make sure to get yourself some very good support, because you sound like your love and care make you prone to codependency that may be very detrimental to your wellbeing on the long run.

Do you have support groups in your area for family members of people with depression or addiction problems? Please check that out.

[joyfulgrowth]

My initial question was that do you think that making him do those things, forcing him out of his comfort zone, will help him to get out of depression?

No.

He might eventually deal with the added pressure by smoking pot daily and not returning home anymore to avoid contact with the people who constantly trigger those guilt feelings in him, which would make it even harder to reach him.

(Of course he may also thrive under your attempts to support him by adding pressure, I have just never seen that happen with any depressed person I know.)

Does he have health insurance? In your country, are there residential therapies and would that be in any way affordable for him?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Drugs treat the symptoms but not the cause of the problem.

Except that when the symptom is driving you to commit suicide, it is essential to treat the symptom.

[Miia]

Once somebody is in a place like Miia describes, he probably hates himself so much for his depression, drug use and lack of discipline, that trying to push or motivate him may have the very opposite effect.

This has crossed my mind BUT what are the alternatives? He has tried everything.... his best solution is "the last time I had depression it just passed one day, I woke up and it was gone. This is what I`m waiting for."

In my opinion he just needs to man up and survive those feelings...it`s like the day after his drinking I went to check on him and he looked terrible, said he feels like crap because of what he did to us, said things like "the closest people to you get hurt the most, always" and that he is so ashamed etc... he called it a moral hang-over. I told him to stop wasting his energy on thoughts like that, it does no good; better to start looking ahead and think of ways which will help him to avoid incidents like this in the future (I also gave a hint about what we are planning).... I`m afraid he didn`t listen but my idea with this "forcing him to be disciplined" thing is the same - he just needs to be stronger than the thoughts-emotions crossing his mind "Oh God, I`m almost 50 and I`m being taught how to wash dishes...". SO WHAT if you don`t know? The reality is that you don`t, now accept that and let`s move on because the single best thing he can do for US is to get BETTER and this is the only way we can think of for now.
I planned to tell him these things... but I don`t actually know how the "depressed" mind works, I have read that it is really hard for them to surpress some thoughts and feelings, they lack control of their thoughts?

Would you call that clinically depressed? There is a difference between feeling crappy for a while because of an unhealthy lifestyle, and being clinically depressed.

This is what I thought too. Although I am still having a hard time to say the least, understanding what depression is and most of all - accepting what it is said to be. But whatever, lets not get into that, it`s not important right now.

They used to say this all the time but now it is forgotten. Drugs treat the symptoms but not the cause of the problem. Alcohol is a legal and popular drug.

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying but I personally don`t have time to dig into his mind that deep...and my personal religion says that sometimes it`s better to not dig that deep, sometimes it`s just better to forget and turn the ship around and start looking ahead.

Please, stop enabling his lies and hiding things from his doctors.

Thank you aelle for waking me up. You are right. I will work on this as soon as I can.

Also, isn't he on anything else than Xanax? This seems odd to my admittedly non-professional eye.

he is using like 12 other meds too. I just don`t remember their names.

Also, if your friend tried to commit suicide once, you cannot take his word that he won't do it again. People don't try to commit suicide because they are too weak-willed not to do it, or because they aren't thinking straight or think they have no one to dissappoint. His promise won't hold him back next time he has a depressive episode.

This is why we plan to talk to him and ask him to take us with him the next time he goes to visit his doctor... so that we could officially get his "agreement" to talk to his doc without him.

Do you have support groups in your area for family members of people with depression or addiction problems? Please check that out.

I`m afraid we don`t.... but we`ll talk with his doctor and maybe she has some things to say.

Again, thanks everybody. It does help somehow to get my ideas out and into the open here.

[joyfulgrowth]

I planned to tell him these things... but I don`t actually know how the "depressed" mind works, I have read that it is really hard for them to surpress some thoughts and feelings, they lack control of their thoughts?

First of all, I really don't believe that you can help him by trying to teach him to suppress his thoughts and feelings.

And yes, the attempt to do so will probably trigger more hopelessness and bad thoughts. After all, if you "can't even control your thoughts", you must be really crap, right? To him the whole suggestion probably feels like crossing the Atlantic by swimming.

Make sure you

care for yourself (better now in a conscious way, than in a year when you might be so exhausted that the only thing you can think of to protect yourself is completely dropping him),

if you can, reassure him that he won't loose your love even when he doesn't do what you ask him to (that he is not only loved when he is a good boy making others happy)

and still from time to time let him know in a self-responsible way how his actions affect you (knowing that his mind will easily hear that as "I am crap and I am the cause of people close to me suffering". So you will want to do your best to link your feelings to your own needs and longings rather than to his actions).

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Miia

In my opinion he just needs to man up and survive those feelings...it`s like the day after his drinking I went to check on him and he looked terrible, said he feels like crap because of what he did to us, said things like "the closest people to you get hurt the most, always" and that he is so ashamed etc... he called it a moral hang-over.

That is a sexist thing to say. It is like saying that (I have read Gloria Steinem's writings) men should take charge and be active and women should be passive. So the man should take charge and rape the woman and woman should just accept it and be passive and woman up!

To stress even more what I said before, Jesus says that you look for slivers in other's eyes when you have logs in your own eyes. If he were to go on the Dr Phil show with him, Dr Phil may say that the first thing is that he will have his doctor check your friend for heavy metal toxicity.

[Miia]

That is a sexist thing to say.

I know, and I knew that when I wrote it but I did not mean it like that. I just couldn`t find anything better to say at the moment...

[Miia]

Make sure you

care for yourself (better now in a conscious way, than in a year when you might be so exhausted that the only thing you can think of to protect yourself is completely dropping him),

if you can, reassure him that he won't loose your love even when he doesn't do what you ask him to (that he is not only loved when he is a good boy making others happy)

and still from time to time let him know in a self-responsible way how his actions affect you

I completely agree with you, except the last part - from time to time let him know in a self-responsible way how his actions affect you.

Well in general I agree with that too But I was thinking that when showing him our "plan", I should say something like "the only way you can make up the last week is by at least trying to do this". That sounds harsh I know. But it is what I`m feeling at the moment, and others too... actually my bf shouted that he wants to kill him but oh well...

I`m just afraid that if we don`t use "you own it to us" thing then he wont do it. The only thing that motivated him to put down the bottle was when he saw me sitting in a corner with my head between my hands. It`s ugly to manipulate him like this but my thought is that if it is the only thing that will work then lets use it.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Miia

In my opinion he just needs to man up and survive those feelings...

he just needs to be stronger than the thoughts-emotions crossing his mind

The reality is that you don`t, now accept that and let`s move on because the single best thing he can do for US is to get BETTER and this is the only way we can think of for now.

I planned to tell him these things... but I don`t actually know how the "depressed" mind works, I have read that it is really hard for them to surpress some thoughts and feelings, they lack control of their thoughts?

Of course I don´t know how his depressed mind worked... but with attitudes like this in my depression you would just sink me in deeper.

This is not to say that your plan isn´t good, because I think it is.

But I also think you should stick to the physical activities (especially sports is good + cleaning up) and leave the judgment at home.

Somebody telling you to "man up", "get over it", "be stronger", "grow up"... fine... how? Where is that button that you push or switch you pull??
If you cannot do that... it means that they will be disappointed in you. Another reason to have a drink, stay in bed today... it will never be good enough anyway, so why bother?

This doesn´t have to be your reality, but it is his reality.

He has professionals to take care of his emotional state. The only thing you can do for him is to make it easier for him by helping him clean up, and getting him to do some exercise (best something that makes you sweat, actually exercise, walking is good, but not enough)

Another thing you could help him with is meditation or breathing exercises. They helped me a lot when I was feeling overwhelmed I got permission from myself to do absolutely nothing, to think about absolutely nothing, just to sit and be... It was still a far cry from having happy thoughts whenever I wanted to, but it was better than all the negative thoughts that I was having...

Trust me... it is not so easy as just to say to "get over it". That simply doesn´t work and only serves to make him feel worse.



(yes, some of my own demons are talking here as well... but I still think it is valid for most depressed people when dealing with "happy" people).

[Angela]

I have experienced depression, and if someone had come at me in the depths of my downery with so many needs, demands, and general Bossy Boots-ness, it almost certainly would have triggered overwhelm and despair for me.

Also, if you operating as if he depends on you, then he's got some secondary gain for staying exactly as he is -- what helpless person would want to mess with letting go of someone who is taking care of his every need?

If you want to make a positive difference for this person, I would strongly suggest working within his worldview, rather than your own. If it's too difficult for you to get into his perspective, I'd suggest working with an NLP practitioner to a) shift your own perspective and b) work directly with your friend, if he's amenable.

NLP therapy will help your friend get in touch with his own inner resources, to find his own motivation, and to distinguish what actions would benefit him most and how. An NLP practitioner won't *make* your friend do anything; rather, she'll help him to shift himself, if he would like to shift.

[aelle]

Re-reading this thread, there seem to be some misconception about manic depression. It is a real mental ilness, like depression (although they are two different disorders) and you can't will yourself out of it or snap out of it any more than one can snap out of schizophrenia, anorexia nervosa or autism.
Some lifestyle factors can make it better or worse (drug intake, diet, exercise, routine, sleep etc) but one cannot "just man up" and be done with depression or bipolar disorder.

Miia, you would really benefit from meeting your friend psychiatrist, if only to get educated about his disease and the best ways in which you can help him.

[joyfulgrowth]

Originally Posted by Miia

I was thinking that when showing him our "plan", I should say something like "the only way you can make up the last week is by at least trying to do this". That sounds harsh I know. But it is what I`m feeling at the moment, and others too... actually my bf shouted that he wants to kill him but oh well...

I`m just afraid that if we don`t use "you own it to us" thing then he wont do it. The only thing that motivated him to put down the bottle was when he saw me sitting in a corner with my head between my hands. It`s ugly to manipulate him like this but my thought is that if it is the only thing that will work then lets use it.

I don't believe it will work, and I believe you risk worsening the problem, even if it brings some temporary relief in a situation where you feel really overwhelmed and don't know what else to do. As you have said yourself, you don't know much about depression, and I can assure you, purposely feeding his self-judgment is the worst thing you could possibly do.

I am choosing to take myself out of this thread now, because hearing of your and your bf's overwhelm and of your friend's pain really touches me, and I am scared that I would fall back into my old codependency patterns spending more time and energy than works for me trying to support you in finding relief and rest for yourself and a way to effectively support him.


Please talk openly to his psychiatrist.

Please don't feed his self-judgment. It is fully possible to scream out that you are nerve-wrecked without blaming him.

And please find some quality support for yourself ASAP.

I wish you all the best.

[sarah786]

Hey thanx for ur story... I also often hear about how people should take accountability for their own actions and if someone has negative energy you should avoid them. I have people in my life that could use my support, but I have been avoiding it lately because i feel down. Your story has made me realize helping and supporting them does not have to be a negative experience. Thank you for opening my eyes again. I feel liek i was meant to read this story

[Gypsyrover]

I think you raise an interesting point with the idea of tying discipline and depression together. I have bipolar disorder and what you say touches on a lot of things I've tried and thought about in all the years of and since my diagnosis and treatment.

First, I'll address the idea that he just needs to toughen up and do what he needs to do. I'll tell you flat out, that on the outside that seems really simple. However, it's exactly the same as telling a paralyzed person to just walk already. Their brains (for whatever reason) aren't wired to "talk) to the neurons in their legs. When you have bipolar disorder, the electrical impulses in your brain aren't firing or being received correctly, which doesn't allow for certain hormones, etc. to be properly absorbed. Think of it as a reservoir where the little gates just fly up and down and you never know quite when they'll be up or down, or how long they'll stay there, or how much water will flow through when they do... My point is that it's a very much a physiological disorder that's reflected behaviorally.

Because of that, medication is essential to make those gates go up and down when they ought to (as it were). Frequently, therapy is as well to deal with all the things we do while trying to regulate ourselves along the way. Or the consequences of either extreme, as in the Xanax addiction your friend is dealing with.

However, and this is my own personal opinion and experience, there is an important role that discipline plays in maintaining equilibrium when you have bipolar disorder. My list is a little different though. The rules that I follow, pretty much no matter what, because I've found that they are every bit as important to me being healthy as my meds are include: I sleep and/or stay in bed at least 6 and not more than 9 hours each day, with 7 being my target most days. That means I lay in bed and rest, even if I'm not asleep. I also (this is the hardest!) eat regularly, I try to eat every 4 hours or so and to balance carbs, fat and protein each time I eat. This helps my blood sugar stay stable and avoids mini-mood swings that can trigger bigger ones. I supplement carefully as well.

That's my soapbox, lol. Although I will make one final point. I can tell you that your friend makes perfect sense when he says he's waiting for the depression to just go away. We cycle. It's the way it works. Whether we wallow, revel or resist....we always know that the coin is going to flip eventually. No matter how proactive we are, part of this life is always going to be a waiting game....

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Miia

we're thiking that it's time to shake him the **** up!
Thanks,
your sincerely, a very frustrated Miia.

Hi Miia,
First, thanks for being a caring! human being, who wants your friend sincerely well. Give yourself lots of credit for this, and also remember to care for yourself well first, so you can maintain the requisite resources to then help others.

Wellbeing, evidently is a continual...process of
1. Relating in a close personal spiritual...relationship with God/Jesus.
&
2. Living blessed with emotionally...healthy family &/or other friends, including oneself.
&
3. Learning also enough about endocrinology etc. to assure we live healthy physically...
with these 3 facets all important to remember.

But minimize harsh discipline like 'should, must, have-to' tec; as that too often results in more pain & frustration, both for helpers, & the suffering. Iow, to away-from strategies, it's better to add positive, constructive Self-initiated FUN activities as powerful motivators. - How many of these can you help him discover & develop.

Also it's much easier to help someone live a depression-FREE life, when the guiding person guiding them, has considerable training & competence, so you might want to help this person find a Hypnotherapist, or NLP-practitioner, with such successful skillsets, ok

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by aelle

Re-reading this thread, there seem to be some misconception about manic depression. It is a real mental ilness, like depression (although they are two different disorders) and you can't will yourself out of it or snap out of it any more than one can snap out of schizophrenia, anorexia nervosa or autism.
Some lifestyle factors can make it better or worse (drug intake, diet, exercise, routine, sleep etc) but one cannot "just man up" and be done with depression or bipolar disorder.

Miia, you would really benefit from meeting your friend psychiatrist, if only to get educated about his disease and the best ways in which you can help him.

Yes, as mentioned before, it could be a deficiency of omega-3 oil. If that is the case, nothing mental you do can help it. Now I know a great deal about fasting. Now if someone has not eaten in 50 days and is dying, you cannot cure it by any mental attitude. The cure is food.

Some can be depressed due to a vitamin B deficiency. This is all on the link in my first post. There is a good chance that it is a combination of things. Dr Phil likes to check for heavy metal toxicity since if it is that, then nothing that you do will help. Some can be depressed from a lack of sunlight.

Have you heard of that? It is called H.A.P.P.Y. Just kidding. It is called S.A.D. The point is that if it is one of these things then everything else you do will be a waste.

Now you can go up to a man with no legs. You can tell him that if he does not run then you are going to shoot him between the legs. Still he is not going to run. Depression is just one word but can have many causes.

Have you heard of the actor Jean Claude van Damme. He got depressed and hired an ND. The ND figured out it was because he stopped training now that he was rich. That was the cause so he hired me to do the exercise for him. Wouldn't that be nice? So he started training again and he was cured. Mark Hyman, M.D. says that studies show that exercise helps depression more than any drugs.

Here are excerpts from the webpage that my link on my first post links to:

"I just heard Linda Hamilton talking on TV. She is an actress and the star of the Terminator movies. She said that she battled with bipolar for years but got over it with nutrition and exercise. She added that exercise is so important."

"The following is an uplifting story about a minister, Pastor Alvin Tallant. A Yahoo Search for him shows 8 websites with more information on his healing, where his church is located, etc. As a teenager he was allergic to mold, dust and pollen. In his mid-forties he had 12 surgeries over a 3 year period."

"On 12/2/94 he had his gallbladder removed. In the recovery room his blood pressure dropped to 60/40. They had severed an artery during the operation. He had to spend the next 5 days in SICU. He had 7 surgeries on his nose and sinuses, 3 surgeries on his left foot (which resulted in a bone infection), 5 surgeries on his throat for sleep apnea, surgery on both wrists and ankles for broken bones and cysts and 5 procedures over a 3 year period to crush kidney stones. He was diagnosed as being bipolar (manic depression) and had received treatment for depression many times. In 1996 he had a nervous breakdown and his psychiatrist said that he would be on heavy medication the rest of his life."

"In 2004 he was taking a drug for allergies, a drug for anxiety disorder and 3 drugs for depression. He was diagnosed with anemia and leukopenia (extremely low number of white blood cells in the blood). He had polyps removed from his colon and esophagus. His immune system was shot and his body was shutting down. He had 3 skin cancers removed from his face. In early summer 2004 his dermatologist started him on Efudex, chemotherapy in cream form that he used all over his face and head that he was supposed to use for the rest of his life. He was told to stay out of the sun."

He cured all the above and became healthy without drugs or a doctor.

[joyfulgrowth]

Since two people have suggested NLP:

Please be aware that the experience of NLP practioners can vary greatly. In some places, you can become an NLP practitioner after 6 or 8 days of training, and unlike NLP Master, Trainer and Coach, the focus of those trainings usually is more on integrating the basic NLP formats into your own life and not on working with others (let alone people with chronic mental health problems in a crisis situation!).

So in case you should choose to look for NLP support as suggested by some, try to find somebody whose website gives you the trust that they have extensively worked with people in challenging situations (even with other methods), and not just returned from their first "personal development by NLP" training and are looking for clients to practice with...

(e.g. Angela's website would give me that initial trust, because I see she has done extensive NLP training and is also trained as a hypnotherapist, and because I like her contributions to this forum).

[Angela]

Thank you for saying that, joyfulgrowth! I appreciate that.

And you are so right: you'd want to find a Master Practitioner who has documented experience helping people getting the kind of results you want, and whom you and the other people involved feel safe with. Get references, and have a consultation! (Any good practitioner will provide a free consultation to see if it's a good fit.)

And the practitioner should also get a referral from the guy's doctor.

[Miia]

Thank you guys!

I`m not sure how realistic it is to find a good NLP practitioner where we live (basically under a rock), but I`m searching on it.

My friend agreed to take us with him when he goes to visit his doc the next time (in 3 weeks) and we will sign some papers so that we can talk to his doctor without his presence. He said that it can`t be done by phone so we just have to wait 3 weeks... he also asked why we want this and I asnwered "so we could help you", he started laughing and said "OMG, you want help from there?!". He has praised his doctor many times and has said that his doc is one of the best in our town and maybe in our country BUT still a far cry from what`s needed... he said that she only writes drugs to him and has barely asked how he is feeling... in addition to his doc he has a therapist working with him, she makes home visits and all that... at first she really impressed him and he said that this seems to work but by now things have somehow turned around so that HE is the one giving advice to HER.

I/We have never really delved into his therapy, doctors and meds because ... he himself is basically a doctor, he has had this thing for such a long time, he has been in the hospital many times, he says he knows more about drugs and depression than his doc, she has said it... but maybe it`s time we started investing some energy into this side of the issue... although I have to admit that after hearing his stories about the conventional healthcare system for some years now, I have lost hope in it.

But NLP is something new indeed.
And I will talk with his doctor, ask what we can do for him and ask her for some advice on how to keep ourselves on the surface (or maybe she can point us to somebody who deals with that).

We still have 3 weeks until his appointment with the doc. Unlike some of you, I think that it`s worth trying to make him clean, eat and go outside regularly but my question is how... I am very grateful for some of you reminding me that we can`t and shouldn`t blame him and that we have to go easy on him and not be bossy. This was a wake up call of some sort... we are impatient, overwhelmed and mad at him because we are exhausted but it`s not like he is doing these things ON PURPOSE... plus we need to remind ourselves that we agreed to this situation. He didn`t ask for help... so if I`m tired there is no one else to blame but me. And even if he doesn`t get better - we still love him. Although I`m kind of worried (to say the least) what will happen when we move away (I have to move away, there`s no choice).

I hope that when I will present him our plan that he`ll just agree to it... but what if he doesn`t? I`ll say "please, this will be good for you"? and he will still say no? then what? Do you see "punishing him" when he doesn`t do these things as a threat to his mental state?

I`m just afraid that if we`re not forceful then he`ll do nothing and nothing will EVER CHANGE. (I know, I know, I need to get help) How to be forceful without hurting him?

P.s. Gypsyrover, thank you for sharing your insight, it was really helpful. I now understand why he is waiting to wake up and be well.. would have never thought

[Reverend Keith]

All the suggestions, from NLP to meditation to diet, are good. There are all sorts of things that MAY help with depression. For my own two cents, I've had some friends have excellent luck with herbal treatments. I found a very well researched book on herbs for mental health, which I did a short review of here.

I've also seen some good results with Cognitive Therapy. There's an online program that's free called MoodGYM, found here.

But if there is a possibility your friend is suicidal, I think you have little choice but to call in the professionals. To be frank, a person requiring so much care from friends probably belongs in some kind of monitored facility, under some level of supervision. I know it's not a happy thought, but neither is losing him because your efforts to help him ended up worstening his condition. That wouldn't be easy to live with.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Reverend Keith

But if there is a possibility your friend is suicidal, I think you have little choice but to call in the professionals. To be frank, a person requiring so much care from friends probably belongs in some kind of monitored facility, under some level of supervision. I know it's not a happy thought, but neither is losing him because your efforts to help him ended up worstening his condition. That wouldn't be easy to live with.

Totally agree with this. Don't hesitate if there's that chance.

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by Miia

Thank you guys!

I`m not sure how realistic it is to find a good NLP practitioner where we live (basically under a rock), but I`m searching on it.

My friend agreed to take us with him when he goes to visit his doc the next time (in 3 weeks) and we will sign some papers so that we can talk to his doctor without his presence. He said that it can`t be done by phone so we just have to wait 3 weeks... he also asked why we want this and I asnwered "so we could help you", he started laughing and said "OMG, you want help from there?!". He has praised his doctor many times and has said that his doc is one of the best in our town and maybe in our country BUT still a far cry from what`s needed... he said that she only writes drugs to him and has barely asked how he is feeling... in addition to his doc he has a therapist working with him, she makes home visits and all that... at first she really impressed him and he said that this seems to work but by now things have somehow turned around so that HE is the one giving advice to HER.

I/We have never really delved into his therapy, doctors and meds because ... he himself is basically a doctor, he has had this thing for such a long time, he has been in the hospital many times, he says he knows more about drugs and depression than his doc, she has said it... but maybe it`s time we started investing some energy into this side of the issue... although I have to admit that after hearing his stories about the conventional healthcare system for some years now, I have lost hope in it.

But NLP is something new indeed.
And I will talk with his doctor, ask what we can do for him and ask her for some advice on how to keep ourselves on the surface (or maybe she can point us to somebody who deals with that).

We still have 3 weeks until his appointment with the doc. Unlike some of you, I think that it`s worth trying to make him clean, eat and go outside regularly but my question is how... I am very grateful for some of you reminding me that we can`t and shouldn`t blame him and that we have to go easy on him and not be bossy. This was a wake up call of some sort... we are impatient, overwhelmed and mad at him because we are exhausted but it`s not like he is doing these things ON PURPOSE... plus we need to remind ourselves that we agreed to this situation. He didn`t ask for help... so if I`m tired there is no one else to blame but me. And even if he doesn`t get better - we still love him. Although I`m kind of worried (to say the least) what will happen when we move away (I have to move away, there`s no choice).

I hope that when I will present him our plan that he`ll just agree to it... but what if he doesn`t? I`ll say "please, this will be good for you"? and he will still say no? then what? Do you see "punishing him" when he doesn`t do these things as a threat to his mental state?

I`m just afraid that if we`re not forceful then he`ll do nothing and nothing will EVER CHANGE. (I know, I know, I need to get help) How to be forceful without hurting him?

P.s. Gypsyrover, thank you for sharing your insight, it was really helpful. I now understand why he is waiting to wake up and be well.. would have never thought

This article may be of help. Understanding Family Relationship Problems

Granted I'm still going through this