i got the h1n1 vaccine and....

[gigij]

Originally Posted by liamona

I wonder what fresh Cutter-type incident is in the works today? I'm glad I don't have to worry about it.

Now that you mention it I seem to recall hearing something similar regarding human post exposure rabies vaccine a few years back.
I have to look into that though ... don't quote me on it yet.

Actually theres a question for you - if your kid was bitten by a rabid animal would you give them that vaccine?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Then why do you link them to vaccinations, when kids were vaccinated throughout the 1960s?

They weren't vaccinated with the amount of vaccines kids are vaccinated for today. With all the crap kids are eating and being exposed to, all the vaccines don't seem to be helping them be healthy.

The CDC points out that the rate of autism among vaccinated kids is no higher than the rate of autism among non-vaccinated kids.

I'm sure it does. It likes to point out things like that, it's kind of its job, right?

But it's not the place I like to go for information on how to actually be and stay healthy. I think the last time I checked the most helpful thing it had for me was to wash my hands frequently. Score one for CDC!

But for the most part, I've been able to be healthy without vaccines or the substantial non-helpful information from the CDC.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by liamona

But it's not the place I like to go for information on how to actually be and stay healthy.

And yet your quoting Wikipedia - lmao

You trust them more?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by gigij

And yet your quoting Wikipedia - lmao

You trust them more?

Yeah, you ought to laugh, they are kind of lame, but good for a quick and dirty search for initial information. Those in the know—like you!—know to dig deeper.

So those who want to know more about the infamous Cutter Incident are hereby warned that the Wiki entry may not give you all the goods on it. But you do get an idea that it was no fun, right?

[gigij]

Originally Posted by gigij

Now that you mention it I seem to recall hearing something similar regarding human post exposure rabies vaccine a few years back.
I have to look into that though ... don't quote me on it yet.

Actually theres a question for you - if your kid was bitten by a rabid animal would you give them that vaccine?

Yup - there was a recall in 2004 due to the presence of non-inactivated virus in a batch. Don't ask me how I knew that ...

Same question though - would you get that vaccine if exposed? Or take your chances?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by liamona

I think the only interest you have is proving me wrong in some way, and since you have, I hope you feel happy and successful about it. LOL.

I was interested in pointing out a significant piece of misinformation, yes. It seems a more effective argument against vaccines to point out flaws in the studies than to say there aren't any studies.

[moonrambler]

The CDC points out that the rate of autism among vaccinated kids is no higher than the rate of autism among non-vaccinated kids.

Originally Posted by liamona

I'm sure it does. It likes to point out things like that, it's kind of its job, right?

You conveniently left out the last part of my comment. The CDC makes a point about insignificant rates of difference between the two groups, and the opposing group hasn't been able to effectively link autism with vaccines.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

I was interested in pointing out a significant piece of misinformation, yes. It seems a more effective argument against vaccines to point out flaws in the studies than to say there aren't any studies.

You're right, I'm not the best source for vaccine studies. I used to keep up on them, but I just don't care anymore. Why should I since I have no interest in vaccines? They have no place in my life; therefore, I don't waste much time reading up on them.

I'd rather spend my time more constructively on how to build up my health. I also start out with the mindset that the world isn't a scary place full of dreadful diseases that only BigPharma can save me from.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

You conveniently left out the last part of my comment.

Well you conveniently didn't address some of the things I brought up, so that makes us even.

I want to write more, but unfortunately real life is cutting into my internet time, as usual. Stay well everyone!

[Maximum Jack]

Thimerosal, an ingredient used in the vaccine is 49% mercury by weight, this is a highly questionable compound. Squalene is a naturally occurring oil which is also found in the vaccine, it is also found in the nervous system and the brain of the human body. Sounds safe enough, in fact you have probably eaten this compound in the form of olive oil and benefited from this nutritious food. The problem occurs when you by pass the normal route of ingestion by injecting it directly, here the bodies own immune system recognise this threat and seeks out and attacks it. This results in the bodies own nervous system being attacked, this has been linked with Gulf War Syndrome and other debilitating autoimmune diseases. Polysorbate 80 another ingredient and it is basically a detergent, it is used in the medical field regularly. Researchers like it because it has the ability break open cells, it also promotes tumors. Observed side effects include altered heart function, blood brain barrier can be weakened and penetrated, seizures, reduced fertility and death. Polysorbate 80 is known to cause cancer in animals. If you are in any doubt as to the safety of the vaccine obtain a list of the ingredients and google search each to identify its known properties.

[stanmrak]

For all those of you throwing around those studies to prove your point: You can NEVER assume any given study is accurate. You don't have access to the full information, or the expertise, that you'd need to determine that. Many studies are designed to deliberately come to a particular conclusion, to the advantage of the party funding the study. I've seen too many of those examples to ever put any my faith in any study again.

Back in 2005, Dr. John Ioannidis, an epidemiologist at Ioannina School of Medicine, Greece, showed that there is less than a 50 percent chance that the results of any randomly chosen scientific paper will be true. See his published report here: PLoS Medicine: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False.

Prestigious journals boast that they are very selective, and turn down the vast majority of papers that are submitted to them. The assumption is that they therefore publish only the best scientific work.

But Dr. Ioannidis' study of 49 papers in leading journals, which had been cited by more than 1,000 other scientists — in other words, well-regarded research — showed that within only a few years, almost a third of the papers had been refuted by other studies.

Making matters worse, the "hotter" the field, the greater the competition, and the more likely that published research in top journals will be proven wrong.

[blossom]

I agree. Also, isn't it just life, that every time someone in the field releases information about something current , three years later they turn around and say, öh wait a minute...it's actually the opposite of what we said it was three years ago...ignore old information, it's this now"...and then it sometimes changes AGAIN a few years later. I don't put much stock in "the latest findings" they usually turn out to be totally wrong. Scientists are still human, they make mistakes too. I think sometimes, they just release initial information to keep everyone happy and appeased so they feel safe that their scientists are doing their best to figure it out...regardless of whether they are actually "right" about what they release...that's another matter.

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by liamona

The Cutter incident was one of the worst pharmaceutical disasters in U.S. history and caused several thousand children to be exposed to live polio virus upon vaccination.[1]

Numbers affected

The mistake resulted in the production of 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of the children who received the vaccine 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis and of these 5 children died as a result of polio infection.[2]

Also notice that (as mentioned in your quote) one of the most tremendous errors in vaccination history resulted in 56 children suffering permanent disability (and five deaths) from an error in vaccine production. This is a terrible tragedy, but that should be reassuring that some of the alarmist talk is over hyped. If everyone got so worked up about this incident, why would all the other alleged tragedies that are still being caused by vaccines go unchecked today?

And you have to honestly ask yourself, do you think 56 or more kids would have suffered permanent effects or worse from polio if the vaccine had never been introduced?

[funchy]

I just logged in here, after being away for a few days.

I can't reply to everyone, but here are a few things that stuck out :

The idea I'll get cancer from the vaccine: There is no proof people who rarely-to-never get vaccines get cancer any more or less often than the general public. Cancer is a serious disease, but the word cancer is a blanket term covering various triggers, cell types, and outcomes. If we're going to say X causes "cancer", we'd need to be specific and say what kind of cancer and how.

The idea Amish don't get X because they're not vaccinated: The Amish I know are vaccinated. I live just minutes from Lancaster County, Pa, one of the largest Amish populations in the country.
The other thing people don't realize when they claim Amish don't have such-and-such problem: generally the Amish don't use our healthcare insurance, Medicare, our long-term care, or our mental heath services. They take care of their extended family, in the home, away from government statistic gatherers. They also vary a great deal in how much outside (processed) food their families eat, their vaccination levels, their expose to the 'English' and our germs, etc. Some of them live such closed lives, they rarely leave their farm communities to be seen by outsiders. Do we really accurately know what heath problems they face?

It is true if you've gotten this strain of the H1N1 and got over it, you'll also have immunity from reinfection -- for that one strain. But the thing about influenza is that this is one of those viruses which changes often. It doesn't help that it's crossing back and forth to livestock, and then us humans keep reinfecting ourselves with new versions thanks to the livestock farming/processing industry. Expect to see slight variations in the strain every year. Don't be surprised if in another 10-20 years another really horrible strain appears.

Is a study accurate? Are the results of a study "fact"? A study is just a collection of data attempting to see how closely one variable follows another. Just because one variable follows (correlates) with another doesn't necessarily mean A causes B. B could cause A. Or there could be a lurking variable, C, which cause A and B. Or it could be coincidence, too small sample size, or data collection error which gives an honest researcher misleading results. It's just a starting point, to justify doing a larger study or to investigate causative factors. Ask who is funding it and/or conducting the study. A study is just one of many tools used to learn about our world.

How do I know I am immune? Why do I believe what the CDC tells me? Vaccinations are the same thing which allowed me to survive childhood alive and uncrippled; before vaccinations and antibiotics were common, about 50% of American babies didn't make it to adulthood. I know from firsthand experience that I've never been sick with mumps, measles, rubella, tetanus, pertussis, or polio. If they said I was immune to those diseases and I am, why would they lie only about influenza? And in a world where anyone can test if a vaccine works (including competitors who suspect a vaccine might be a fraud), why would any negative findings be kept secret? Immune response CAN be tested. In fact, before getting all the shots I did this summer, they did bloodwork first to see how much resistance I had left from previous shots (eg. MMR and Polio) so I wouldn't have to repeat vaccinations unnecessarily. [Ask for a "blood titer" at your doctor's office] An independent lab did my blood, and I got a copy of the detailed results. Unless diseases such as measles don't exist, there's no reason for me to think it's a worldwide conspiracy.

The whole mercury-thimerosal thing: It is true this vaccine may be preserved with thimerosal. thimerosal breaks down in the body into ethyl mercury. (Ethyl mercury is NOT the same thing as elemental mercury, eg the kind in thermometers) People need to also understand we're exposed to both kinds of mercury in our environment, even if we're never vaccinated. One scientist stated the amount of mercury in a vaccination is the same as that found in a can of tunafish. Why aren't those fearing thimerosal also wanting to see fish banned as a food? There is some form of mercury in everything from fluorescent light bulbs to disposable batteries to electronics items, yet where are the mercury-is-deadly people when it comes to these things? I am not saying I believe mercury is good; I am saying is that exposure to it is inevitable. If those who believe thimerosal is toxic want me to take them more seriously, I need to also see them working just as hard to get people to stop eating fish... and yet on many of the "natural" health web sites, eating fish is being promoted.


Anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know I'm not dead yet from vaccines. If I do experience something negative or if I come across solid proof there is a problem, I will post it.

[blossom]

Hi Funchy,

You made some good points in your last post. It doesn't surprise me that there is mercury in cans of tuna either, since the water is so full of lead and other heavy metals from all the dumpings that have been going on now for decades...no wonder the fish are all toxic...I hardly eat tuna or any fish these days for that reason, but sometimes I do.
As far as batteries and fluro lights go, well, we don't ingest them do we? Loads of household appliances, and even our computers, contain highly dangerous chemicals, no question about that...but we don't eat these things, we use them in our daily lives. We do, however breathe in an exhorbitant amount of toxic chemicals on a daily basis from our living environments and the products we use to 'clean' our carpets and our showers and everything else. This is slowly making everyone sick, and like I said earlier, it would be VERY difficult, infact pretty much impossible to be able to trace any sort of latent cancer to any one particular influence simply because there are WAY TOO MANY to count!

There may be many other ways that people are (unwittingly) ingesting mercury...that sounds more like fodder for another conspiracy right there, why aren't canned fish companies telling people about this? Obviously because noone in their right mind would buy the product if they knew, right. Then again, if more people took the time to want to understand the effect that toxic dumping and other unethical practises that go on have on the water, and therefore the fish, they wouldn't need a company to tell them...they'd already know, and opt against it!

The point is that, to willingly accept a vaccination with that amount of mercury or even psuedo-mercury, it still ain't that good for a persons blood and brain is it? It's poison, whether it be low grade or full strength mercury! What is the difference between thermomenter mercury and Ethyl mercury anyway? You didn't actually share that information with us in your post? Surely there are just as effective preservatives they can use instead?

Having said that though, perhaps your immunity is strong enough to withstand it...since you work in a hospital, you would no doubt be exposed to loads of different toxic chemicals, breathing in the bleach they clean the floors with and all the rest, so you have probably built up quite a tolerance to lots of different chemicals...I wish you all the best with it

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by stanmrak

For all those of you throwing around those studies to prove your point: You can NEVER assume any given study is accurate.

Since I'm the main study-thrower in this thread just to mention, I only had one point to prove, and that is that studies have indeed been performed. Accuracy is another subject altogether.

You don't have access to the full information, or the expertise, that you'd need to determine that. Many studies are designed to deliberately come to a particular conclusion, to the advantage of the party funding the study. I've seen too many of those examples to ever put any my faith in any study again.

So how do you make decisions on the subjects? This is what I'm concerned I see sometimes . . . it's like people decide they believe something about the medical establishment and that's all there is to it. Nothing will make them even consider a different possibility.

Back in 2005, Dr. John Ioannidis, an epidemiologist at Ioannina School of Medicine, Greece, showed that there is less than a 50 percent chance that the results of any randomly chosen scientific paper will be true. See his published report here: PLoS Medicine: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False.

Prestigious journals boast that they are very selective, and turn down the vast majority of papers that are submitted to them. The assumption is that they therefore publish only the best scientific work.

But Dr. Ioannidis' study of 49 papers in leading journals, which had been cited by more than 1,000 other scientists — in other words, well-regarded research — showed that within only a few years, almost a third of the papers had been refuted by other studies.

Making matters worse, the "hotter" the field, the greater the competition, and the more likely that published research in top journals will be proven wrong.

Disturbing findings. It surprises me in some ways but on the other hand it doesn't. I'm always looking for studies to cite, and I see research where they have a group size of, say, 10, and no placebo group. I also see results that don't indicate much of anything and yet the company is proclaiming great results.

When we're talking about vaccines, though -- outside of H1N1, which is new -- they've got millions upon millions of individual results. It really is pure guesswork to point to an increased incidence of a condition -- autism, for instance -- and connect it with vaccines.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by blossom

There may be many other ways that people are (unwittingly) ingesting mercury...that sounds more like fodder for another conspiracy right there, why aren't canned fish companies telling people about this? Obviously because noone in their right mind would buy the product if they knew, right.

The canned fish companies certainly aren't going to advertise the presence of mercury, but the FDA and the CDC set out guidelines about eating fish that may have higher levels of heavy metals, particularly for pregnant and nursing women, babies and young children. The information is out there, from the same agencies people keep accusing of conspiring to inject kids with mercury.

What is the difference between thermomenter mercury and Ethyl mercury anyway?

Ethyl mercury is expelled from the body quickly, while the other mercury is not. And most vaccines that kids in the U.S. get don't contain thimerosal anymore, and haven't for nearly 10 years.

[stanmrak]

I suggest everyone who's concerned about flu vaccines listen to this interview. Dr. Russell Blaylock is a retired neurosurgeon who has done nothing but research for the last 30 years, and is certainly an expert in vaccines and neurology. He does not have any connections with any health organization.

Swine Flu -- One of the Most Massive Cover-ups in American History

Dr Blaylock explains that most of the harmful effects from vaccines are neurological in nature, and take months, if not years, to manifest.
When the neurological problems develop, it's so far down the road that the vaccine manufacturer can easily claim plausible deniability. (What causes autism? Alzheimers? ADD? uh... "we don't know — but we're working on a cure!") The connection is impossible to prove, so the vaccination programs continue to accelerate. Vaccine safety studies only last on an average of 7 days after the shot is given, according to Dr. Blaylock.

In addition, these studies on the dangers of vaccine ingredients only show up in medical journals specializing in neuroscience, not vaccine science, so most doctors don't see them because they don't read those specialized journals.

Everyone is aware of the increase in neurological diseases in the world these days: more and more kids are on anti-depressants or are diagnosed with attention-deficit disorder, mass murders are getting more common, autism, schizophrenia, alzheimer's, parkinsons, brain cancer — all on the rise, some at epidemic rates. All rising along with the ramped up program of vaccinations we now give young babies. Infants now get as many as 26 different vaccines in the first two years of life!

Why haven't you heard of Dr. Blaylock? He's essentially blacklisted from all major media outlets by the pharmaceutical industry because of his opinions.

[blossom]

Thanks moonrambler for making that distinction. Could you also tell me how dangerous ethyl mercury really is, if you know? I know it's only one component of this vaccine, but I'm just curious as I've never heard of it.

I do think it is the publics responsability to research these things, it's just hard to know who to trust when there is so much misinformation out there, and such an unwillingness to trust the powers that be...it makes it very difficult.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by blossom

Thanks moonrambler for making that distinction. Could you also tell me how dangerous ethyl mercury really is, if you know? I know it's only one component of this vaccine, but I'm just curious as I've never heard of it.

I do think it is the publics responsability to research these things, it's just hard to know who to trust when there is so much misinformation out there, and such an unwillingness to trust the powers that be...it makes it very difficult.

The only thing I know is that it's toxic in "high doses," but I don't know what they consider high doses. I also don't know why thimerosal (the ethyl mercury preservative) has to be included in multi-dose H1N1 vaccines, when it has been removed from childhood vaccines. And it seems contradictory that the FDA decided to take thimerosol off the approved substance list for childhood vaccines, but it's allowed for flu shots.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Writertype

Also notice that (as mentioned in your quote) one of the most tremendous errors in vaccination history resulted in 56 children suffering permanent disability (and five deaths) from an error in vaccine production. This is a terrible tragedy, but that should be reassuring that some of the alarmist talk is over hyped. If everyone got so worked up about this incident, why would all the other alleged tragedies that are still being caused by vaccines go unchecked today?

And you have to honestly ask yourself, do you think 56 or more kids would have suffered permanent effects or worse from polio if the vaccine had never been introduced?

This is just one vaccine—there's been plenty of issues of vaccine contamination and errors in production. Don't forget that another polio vaccine (after this particular debacle) was contaminated with SV-40 (which is short for simian virus #40. The number refers to how many simian viruses there were).

I've posted on this issue before—the government scientists who discovered this contaminant, or other problem with vaccines, routinely got silenced and/or demoted or fired.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by gigij

Same question though - would you get that vaccine if exposed? Or take your chances?

Yes, I'll take my chances, since in my city only two animals have been found with rabies since 1969. Most exposures to rabies in the U.S. comes from wild bats, which I personally have never come across (thank goodness!).

[liamona]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

I also don't know why thimerosal (the ethyl mercury preservative) has to be included in multi-dose H1N1 vaccines, when it has been removed from childhood vaccines.

Actually it's still being used.

It's in some of the multi-dose containers for DTaP, DTaP-Hib, Td, Hib, etc. (vaccines commonly given to children).

This file contains all the wonderful "side" ingredients in vaccines:

Vaccine Excipient and Media Summary, by Excipient

(This is the from the 2009 "Epidemiology and Prevention of Vaccine-Preventable Diseases" pink book that the CDC publishes.)

The entry for thimerosal is on page 5.

It says that even some of the single-dose vaccines contain it, but doesn't list them.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by blossom

I do think it is the publics responsability to research these things, it's just hard to know who to trust when there is so much misinformation out there, and such an unwillingness to trust the powers that be...it makes it very difficult.

I have been researching alternative news & information for years, and now that government and corporate forces have joined together in practically one seamless organization, I've come to the conclusion that if a multitude of "experts" recommend a course of action, you're probably better off doing the exact opposite.

And I don't just mean for health issues—I'm extremely grateful that I started researching the economy back in 2007, and made changes to my 401k back when all the "experts" were still saying the economy was fine.

Just watch t.v. for about 10 minutes, or as long as you can stand without wanting to throw up. It's the way the PTB let us useless eaters know what we should be thinking and doing.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by liamona

Yes, I'll take my chances, since in my city only two animals have been found with rabies since 1969. Most exposures to rabies in the U.S. comes from wild bats, which I personally have never come across (thank goodness!).

haha - that's why I ask actually. I was exposed to rabies from a bat in 2005 and I went ahead and had the shots. Interesting that you would take your chances though - good for you - I wasn't willing to risk it.
Just cowardly I guess ...

[liamona]

Originally Posted by gigij

haha - that's why I ask actually. I was exposed to rabies from a bat in 2005 and I went ahead and had the shots. Interesting that you would take your chances though - good for you - I wasn't willing to risk it.
Just cowardly I guess ...

I'm sure you made the right decision. How were you exposed to a bat?

[gigij]

It got in my house - not that unusual actually - they often live in attics and then make their way into the main part of the house - especially the sick ones I think - they get disoriented.

Oh and btw - just got confirmed today that the girl who works in the desk next to me has been diagnosed with h1n1. lol

I have pretty bad luck eh?

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by gigij

haha - that's why I ask actually. I was exposed to rabies from a bat in 2005 and I went ahead and had the shots. Interesting that you would take your chances though - good for you - I wasn't willing to risk it.
Just cowardly I guess ...

Absolutely the right choice. Once you show any signs of rabies it is virtually 100% lethal with or without treatment. Apparently six people have survived a rabies infection, with five of those having been previously vaccinated, but realistically if you show signs of rabies you will die from the infection.

[koneall]

I'm planning on having the swine flu vaccine. I can see the hospital from my office and there's been a line stretching into the parking lot for two days. I'm not worried about one-in-a-million bad reactions. I own my business which means I only make money when I'm working plus I don't get sick leave. I don't want to lose a week's income because of recuperating from the virus. I've never had bad reactions to a vaccine, including polio 40 years ago, cholera 30 years ago and rabies vaccine 20 years ago. My dad was military and we traveled a lot, requiring vaccination for a lot of bugs that only exist in Europe or asia.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by gigij

It got in my house - not that unusual actually - they often live in attics and then make their way into the main part of the house - especially the sick ones I think - they get disoriented.

Ewww! That is scary.