Seeing no difference whatsoever on 98.5% raw

[Chill of Eons]

Hi lifeforms. Here's the basic facts:

-Went vegan last December. Been vegan since. Saw no difference in any way, other than caring more about the animals I used to eat. No detox, no increased energy, no withdrawal, nothing. But I figured that was no reason to go back to animal products, because I know I'd be causing more damage to my system down the road, and it wasn't costing me any more money per month for food either (which some would surely find surprising).

-When I first read about Steve's raw experiences, I decided immediately that I absolutely wanted, and rather damned badly at that, to do the same. However, I didn't think it was within my ability for chiefly two reasons, that 1) It would cost probably at least 3 times what I was spending already, which I certainly couldn't afford, and 2) It would take me way too long to eat enough and get "sufficient" calories in a day, which I average between 1600 and 1800. Which I guess would further average as 1700. However, much to my relief, when I actually sat down and calculated the prices and calories and all using Excel, it actually seemed doable for me, and it is so far. I spend around $250 a month on food now, probably more now that I'm also buying protein powders, whereas I was spending $200 a month or less before. It’s still less than I expected.

In July I started trying to greatly reduce my ingestion of breakfast cereal, soy products like Tofurkey which I had been eating almost daily, and whatever else was processed or cooked. At first I didn’t believe I would be able to give up soy and remain vegan. After a couple weeks, I completed my first day ever of eating 100 percent raw. Ok so the almonds were pasteurized without my awareness, and I didn't learn that until about a month later. But since mid-july I've been able to avoid all other heated food (although I did eat a sizable amount of dried plums for a while, not knowing they were probably heated above the acceptable point) without any real difficulty, while also getting about the same amount of calories. I was somewhat surprised, since I saw that I was indeed capable of eating entirely raw, and without having to spend 3 hours a day manipulating and eating the food.

I buy my food almost entirely from Trader Joe's. Mostly non-organic. The organic stuff is way more expensive. I get and eat mostly the same foods all the time, and I don't mind. At this rate I'd never truly tire of it, unlike the vast majority of humans. I'm not saying that makes me special or anything.

Here's what I eat regularly:

Avocados, 2 to 3 a day. They taste just as good as the organic ones and are considerably cheaper, $3.29 for a bag of 4! And not hard to eat 3 in a day either, if I eat them later in the day, which I now do.

SunWarrior Protein, believed to be the best raw protein there is (though I'm sure many rawers eschew such things), one scoop a day with the morning smoo (I got a Vita-Mix TurboBlend 4500 for my raw conviction, so I’m certainly dedicated on some level). I can't really afford to take it more often than that.

Nutiva Organic Hemp Protein Plus Fiber: About half a serving each morning in the smoo. Doesn't taste good, but mixing it with the SunW helps. I got it cuz I read recently that hempseed has “edestin” protein which is supposed to be the most easily used protein in humans. I'm sure many would disagree. I hope they soak them first before pulverizing them, because if they don’t then it’s
probably still full of enzyme inhibitors that could be overworking my pancreas. But I doubt they consider that. The powder seems to be cheaper overall than the actual seeds, which is why I buy it. Haven’t tried the seeds yet.

Romaine: 6 oz a day. You get 12 oz for two bucks. I wish I consumed like 5 times the greens that I do. I get spinach too, it’s the same price for the same volume.

Celery: I'm getting lazy and don't feel like including the amounts anymore. It's a moderate amount, I'll say that.

Peaches: Love these. I'd be angry without them. One of my favorite fruits. The ones I’m getting now are virtually indistinguishable from nectarines, just the way I like it.

Coconut, organic: Just started getting this. It's grand. And only $2.50 at this healthfood store I just started going to, how benevolent! I expected it to be at least twice the price.

Oranges: Average tasting non-organic valencias. The organic ones at TradJoe's are invariably soupy messes, even when not apparently squishy on the outside, that actually taste worse so I have learned the hard way to avoid those like a cancer.

Bananas, 7 to 8 a day!!! They're only 19 cents each, with an average of 90 calories! I used to think I could never manage eating that number, but it's damned EASY! The more I eat them the more I like them! I am Steve in that regard! I could not do this thing without many bananas! I space them out, never eating more than three at a time, usually two, and waiting at least 90 minutes before eating more of them (especially if I ingested any significant amount of fat) so I don't risk getting heart palpitations from it like my uncle did (seriously, I never hear of that happening from bananas, and he only ate 3 or 4 at once). Combined with the avocados (not literally) that's actually only slightly above 100% DV of potassium, so I should be fine.

Lime: Just the juice. They’re incredibly cheap and a decent sweetener. I like the taste a lot more than lemon. They sure do burn the fingers though.

Almonds, Truly Raw, Unpasteurized, ORGANIC Valencia from Spain: I cannot get them to sprout, which is a damned shame, because I have yet to taste sprouted almonds and I do covet those increased nutrients, especially protein. So I just eat them after soaking. But sometimes a few of them taste putrid and repulsively powdery just from soaking for 8 hours and have to be spit out. Oh well. I eat two ounces a day.

Celtic Sea Salt: Unbleached salt is the only kind I will consume now. It tastes somewhat better anyway. I apply it to the avocados every time, otherwise they often taste like trees.

Sunflower Seeds: Sometimes. They're very cheap, 2 dolla for a pound. I got them to sprout recently so that excites me, I should be pouring them down all the time for maximum protein. I believe in the protein myth as far as that I need a lot more than I'm getting, which averages probably to 35 grams.

That covers all of what I eat daily or semi-daily. Sometimes I get things like blue, straw, raspberries (favorite berry), but berries you get so little calories for the price. I also have recently tried things like okra, which I like a lot, jalapeno, which I love in salads (okra too), persimmon, catnip (tastes like lemon), chard, and radish. I also recently started going to a Meetup raw
thing and am floored by what they make there. So I get some variety. I used to eat corn every day but have recently abandoned that because many rawers think you should intake no grains whatsoever, even raw or sprouted. I also wanted to see if corn was the thing that was blocking any benefits from manifesting, but obviously not.

There are obviously dozens of other extremely healthy natural foods I could eat too, but many of them are too expensive to buy but occasionally, especially something like dulse. Unless I grew them. Especially dulse. Haw, just kidding. You can’t grow seaweed, or at least I can’t. I could try a bunch of herbs and spices, or easily grow them in pots I presume.

So now, what you have been waiting for, the main focus of this thread: What am I doing wrong, why am I seeing no change after over two solid months? Too much fat? That’s the answer I’m expecting from most, that and not enough variety, and not enough organic. The fat thing would be by far the hardest for me to change, because I weigh freaking 125 pounds as a 6’1 male. Does
losing weight sound like a good idea for someone who fits that description? It’s actually getting harder now for me to exercise. I was jogging every morning for 25 minutes for about a month straight, jogging very slow mind you but I was going at my own pace. I knew better than to speed up before I hit 18-20 minutes because if I do I get worn out and HAVE to stop and just walk for at least 5 minutes, and that’s the way it’s always been. I do admit though that I have never, before a couple months ago, been able to jog at ANY speed for anywhere near 25 minutes straight (usually I had to start walking for a while after less than 5 minutes!) without becoming short of breath, so that may be a raw benefit. That doesn’t mean I feel like I have more energy though. I seem to be losing what miniscule muscle mass I possessed, particularly in my arms, and can no longer stand to lift a mere ten pound dumbell. I may be imagining it but there appear to be deeper craters near thewrists, indicative of receded tissue.

Practically all of the raw stories I hear are that they saw a difference within the first few days, or within the first month at the very least. If it wasn’t a good difference it was at least a “bad” difference that indicated detox. It’s frustrating that I can boast of eating almost entirely raw for 2 months and the biggest change I notice is a harder time exercising. Even if I still saw no difference after two more months, I still wouldn’t want to go back to heated
provisions (not that my taste buds have changed or anything), but
by then it would be completely obvious that I need to adjust it somehow.

Regarding calories, does anyone think an average of 1700 a day (raw only of course) is remotely adequate for a mostly sedentary individual who’s never been an ounce overweight? Or even 2000 a day? This is also someone who wants to GAIN weight, specifically of the muscle type, so the answer is probably no.

Thanks for reading!!!!

[rocksupreme]

Originally Posted by Chill of Eons

Regarding calories, does anyone think an average of 1700 a day (raw only of course) is remotely adequate for a mostly sedentary individual who’s never been an ounce overweight? Or even 2000 a day? This is also someone who wants to GAIN weight, specifically of the muscle type, so the answer is probably no.

Thanks for reading!!!!

I'm not going to comment on the raw diet, but I can tell you that 1700 calories is not enough for someone who is skinny. People with plenty of fat reserves can get by on much less, but you will feel lethargic without more energy from food calories. Especially if you're trying to gain weight, I suggest adding 100 calories a day for a few days then reevaluating. You can add up to 500 calories a week that way (+100 a day during the week and hold on the weekends).

[Wanderer]

Its very hard to gain weight on a raw diet. Especially one where you don't have much money. Gaining and losing weight in there simplest form are:

Losing: Eat raw foods (no complex carbs), lots of cardio
Gaining: Eat lots of carbs and protein and do heavy weights

The amount of calories the 'average' man is meant to eat is 2500 daily, at 6'1, you should probably be eating that as a min, and if you want to gain weight, it should be more like 3k, 3k500. Also, try and eat every few hours. If your serious about it then I would go for a diet like this.

7am 4 pieces of wholemeal toast with lots of peanut butter
9am Big pile of fruit

11am Vegetable fried rice

1pm Home fries made with potatoes and a vegan burger

4pm Couscous/Pasta with tofu etc.

Big weights

7pm More fruit, protein shake (after your workout)

10pm 4 More pieces of toast with peanut butter

3am (wake up during the night for) Vegan burger/Sausages/some protein and carbs.

It IS possible to be vegan and gain weight, the menu above (or similar) and heavy weights daily (different body parts) and you would see a difference within a month, probably sooner.

I doubt you could achieve the same results as a raw foodist, simply because getting the calories and protein you need would be too hard, maybe if you ate lots of smoothies and protein powder, but then the cost is prohibitive again.

If you are serious about gaining weight then a raw diet is probably not the way to go right now. Hope this helped.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Chill of Eons

I buy my food almost entirely from Trader Joe's. Mostly non-organic. The organic stuff is way more expensive.

Do you have access to any other grocery stores, especially ethnic ones? If you don't mind eating non-organic produce, you ought to explore them.

How about Wild Oats-type health food stores? Some of their prices are better than TJ's.

Other options are farmer's markets and buying clubs, co-ops where people buy in bulk as a group. This comes in handy for getting good prices on nuts.

It also helps to look through the grocery store circulars that get mailed out once a week.

Another option is the reduced bin at the health food store. I've scored some perfectly fine (if bruised) organic produce for a steep discount. You do have to eat them that day or the next because they tend to be at peak ripeness.

Middle-eastern grocery stores tend to have the lowest quality produce, but sometimes you can find good stuff if you go regularly.

Hispanic ones are usually middle of the road. Asian grocery stores tend to have the highest quality produce, so the prices are higher, but still you can get a deal on some things.

Do you belong to Freecycle? Sometimes people with fruit trees will let you pick your own for free.

Look at Craigslist. Get an RSS feed for the search terms "fruit" or "produce."

Romaine: 6 oz a day. You get 12 oz for two bucks.

That is way too expensive for Romaine. I hardly ever get lettuce at TJs, but I also have a locally-owned health food store that always has a sale on at least one kind of green-leaf lettuce.

They often sell a head of organic lettuce for $1.75. It contains way more than what comes in those 12 oz. bags.

Peaches: Love these. I'd be angry without them. One of my favorite fruits. The ones I’m getting now are virtually indistinguishable from nectarines, just the way I like it.

The ones at TJ's are usually much more expensive than what you can get from other stores. One of the conventional grocery stores had them for 69 cents/lb. last week.

Oranges: Average tasting non-organic valencias. The organic ones at TradJoe's are invariably soupy messes, even when not apparently squishy on the outside, that actually taste worse so I have learned the hard way to avoid those like a cancer.

It's hard to judge the quality of non-organic citrus fruits from merely looking at the color of the peel, as the FDA allows these to be artificially colored without having to say so on the label. This is why sometimes it "pays" to buy organic.

You may be better off buying one piece of a new batch at a conventional grocery store to see how it tastes. If it tastes good, go back and stock up.

Bananas, 7 to 8 a day!!! They're only 19 cents each, with an average of 90 calories!

I don't eat bananas, but I get them for the rest of the family. This is an item that tends to be for sale in the discount bin at the HFS. And they tend to be really cheap at the Hispanic markets.

Almonds, Truly Raw, Unpasteurized, ORGANIC Valencia from Spain: I cannot get them to sprout, which is a damned shame, because I have yet to taste sprouted almonds and I do covet those increased nutrients, especially protein. So I just eat them after soaking. But sometimes a few of them taste putrid and repulsively powdery just from soaking for 8 hours and have to be spit out.

Are these the ones from TJ's? I've gotten them to sprout. Maybe I got lucky? Hmm.

The fat thing would be by far the hardest for me to change, because I weigh freaking 125 pounds as a 6’1 male. Does losing weight sound like a good idea for someone who fits that description?

No. If anything, you ought to increase the fat and carbs wherever you can. I wonder if you should try to add more nuts, like Macademia.

Practically all of the raw stories I hear are that they saw a difference within the first few days, or within the first month at the very least.

What were they eating before the switch? Pretty much anyone eating the SAD would feel a difference switching to any kind of whole-foods diet initially, barring food sensitivities/allergies and gut issues.

Personally, I don't care how people feel the first couple of years on a diet. I want to know about how people do long-term, at least five to ten years.

If it wasn’t a good difference it was at least a “bad” difference that indicated detox. It’s frustrating that I can boast of eating almost entirely raw for 2 months and the biggest change I notice is a harder time exercising.

Do most people on the raw diet use powdered protein? I wonder how you would do if you ditched them, and added more sprouted nuts to your diet instead. Of course you're having trouble exercising, you're probably not eating enough!

[Gabo]

When I did my raw trial, I noticed absolutely no differences..... until I went off the trial. What I've found is that I don't notice anything on a raw diet because I feel good in general. Once I started eating cooked foods again, I felt noticeably more sluggish and less lucid throughout the day. When I eat dairy or eggs, I feel even worse.

Also, as other people have recommended, I would say you need to eat a lot more calories than you currently do. I am 6'2, and I eat at least 3000 calories a day and don't gain weight. I couldn't imagine surviving off only 1700 calories.

[Wanderer]

Just another thought based on what Liamona said, I went to a market the other day and got 30 bannanas, 20 small oranges and 10 apples for $3. They weren't reduced or on offer, that was just the prices at the Market. I remember when I lived in America I saw a Sedo's (I think), in Miami and they were selling a pound of bannanas (7 or so) for 19 cents. Shopping around really does work!

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by Chill of Eons

Hi lifeforms.

Nice.

[Steve23]

Originally Posted by rocksupreme

I'm not going to comment on the raw diet, but I can tell you that 1700 calories is not enough for someone who is skinny.

Yeah, especially at your weight! No wonder you don't have much energy!

When you talk about not feeling much different, do you track that difference? One thing I have been doing to try do notice clearly when and how much energy I have is keeping track several times a day:
I take my heart rate.
I give a number score to how focused, energetic, and satisfied I feel.
I note the time.

Then you can go back and see how you feel and when.

(Note: I think that if the most energy you feel is right after eating, then you probably need more calories on a regular basis)

[stanmrak]

You're doing great! Don't worry about the "no difference". U may not feel anything now, but 20, 30 years down the road? No doubt. I'm the same way; been eating healthy for 30 years and boy am i glad!

A few comments:
Eating a lot bananas at once could spike your blood sugar, which you don't want to do. Maybe u could eat some of your avocados with them to slow down the insulin response.

Peaches have the highest level of pesticides of any fruit. If you can't live without them, but organic.

[liamona]

Green Smoothie Girl has some great specials going on for bulk purchases. Depending on how much you buy, the cost for raw almonds is $3 to $5/lb.

If you don't belong to a co-op, you ought to start one with some friends, especially those who are doing the raw diet. It's a great way to get support and save money at the same time.

https://gsmg.infusionsoft.com/cart/s...&i=3&navicat=3

[Aleksander Krstic]

Low-protein diet?

[Steve23]

Originally Posted by stanmrak

You're doing great!

I also applaud your discipline!

But keep some more calories, man!

[Herbivore]

Too much fat.
I'm as thin as you, yet I've been doing 811 for 4 months. So, fat's not helping you. More than 10% fat only gets in the way. As a cooked fooder, I used to add oil and Protein powders to everything. I didn't gain muscle, just water retention.
Fat inhibits sugar uptake into the cells, so eating fat to keep weight on is actually blocking what the cells really need - carbs.

Non-organic food can be irradiated (ie, killed). so your not as raw as you think. Solution: farmers markets - cheap prices at some, and some organic, and non-irradiated. Generally superior to supermarkets. And go for the 29 cent bananas at TJ's (60 more cents a day - and worth it. you get back more.)

Protein powders: not only a waste of money, but too much protein is unhealthy.

I know many raw-fooders that gained muscle without lifting weights. No powders.

Not enough calories.

Dried food isn't optimum.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

More than 10% fat only gets in the way.

But not consuming any fat gets in the way of being able to absorb fat-soluble vitamins and nutrients:

Health Journal: Adding fat to veggies can make them more nutritious

"It turns out that some of the best stuff in fruits and vegetables -- certain vitamins and cancer-fighting compounds -- are "fat-soluble." That means some fat needs to be present for the body to adequately absorb the nutrients. But studies are now showing that people who opt for no-fat dressing or who skip adding foods like avocado or cheese to a dish to avoid fat calories, are getting far less out of their salads and other veggies.

"What we're finding is that if you don't have some fat in the meal, all these wonderful" compounds are missed, says Steven Clinton, program leader for molecular carcinogenesis and chemoprevention and the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center in Columbus.
Dr. Clinton's latest research looks at how adding avocado -- which is relatively high in unsaturated fat -- to salsa or a salad affects how well the body absorbs healthful compounds in the foods. In particular, the study looked at absorption of carotenoids, the red, yellow and orange pigments found in many fruits and vegetables that are believed to have cancer-fighting properties.

For the salsa study, 11 test subjects were first given a meal of fat-free salsa and some bread. Another day, the same meal was offered, but this time avocado was added to the salsa, boosting the fat content of the meal to about 37 percent of calories. In checking blood levels of the test subjects, researchers found that the men and women absorbed an average of 4.4 times as much lycopene and 2.6 times as much beta carotene when the avocado was added to the food."

These are the studies the article cited:
Carotenoid bioavailability is higher from salads ingested with full-fat than with fat-reduced salad dressings as measured with electrochemical detection -- Brown et al. 80 (2): 396 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

"Results: After ingestion of the salads with fat-free salad dressing, the appearance of -carotene, ß-carotene, and lycopene in chylomicrons was negligible."

Conclusions: High-sensitivity HPLC with coulometric array detection enabled us to quantify the intestinal absorption of carotenoids ingested from a single vegetable salad.

Essentially no absorption of carotenoids was observed when salads with fat-free salad dressing were consumed. A substantially greater absorption of carotenoids was observed when salads were consumed with full-fat than with reduced-fat salad dressing."

Carotenoid Absorption from Salad and Salsa by Humans Is Enhanced by the Addition of Avocado or Avocado Oil -- Unlu et al. 135 (3): 431 -- Journal of Nutrition

"In conclusion, adding avocado fruit can significantly enhance carotenoid absorption from salad and salsa, which is attributed primarily to the lipids present in avocado."

[Herbivore]

I look at things this way: If there's fat-soluable vitamins in a food, then there'd be the nessesary fat in that same food. If nature/God gets this stuff wrong, animal life wouldn't have survived.

And carrots are a bad example, as humans aren't meant to eat them. We're meant for leafy greens, which by no coincidense, contain a decent amount of fat(oil).

Wild animals don't add fat to their food. They're not sickly. Humans are.

[James Reno]

I think you are getting enough calories. What really matters is nutrient density. Also, if you have no increase in energy with all that good food, make sure you are drinking enough water. About 8 glasses per day.

This is my page on before and after calories, although I wanted to lose weight and did, 30 lbs.

Huge Reduction In Calories With A Raw Food Lifestyle!

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

And carrots are a bad example, as humans aren't meant to eat them.

The studies measured carotenoids, which are found in a lot of produce besides carrots:

"In particular, the study looked at absorption of carotenoids, the red, yellow and orange pigments found in many fruits and vegetables that are believed to have cancer-fighting properties."

In addition, the results of an interesting 12-year Swedish study just came out:

Abstract: Food Choices and Coronary Heart Disease: A Population Based Cohort Study of Rural Swedish Men with 12 Years of Follow-up - MDPI

This is what it found:

"We identified a significant interaction between intake of fruit and vegetables and dairy fat consumption. Daily fruit and vegetables consumption was associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease only when combined with a high intake of dairy fat. Low intake of dairy fat, choosing mostly wholemeal bread or eating fish at least twice a week was not associated with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease in this cohort of rural middle-aged men. The current nutritional recommendations were hence only partly supported."

I guess God got it wrong when he made these fruits and vegetables!

[ginkgo]

People cannot feel if their arteries are 15% clogged or 70% clogged. It feels the same. Most people who get a heart attack feel fine.