Concerns about vegan diet

[gberardi]

So I have been eating a vegan diet for at least over two months now.

I don't feel hungry. I don't feel deprived of "real food". I haven't felt like I was weak or anything due to lack of nourishment.

On the other hand, I don't feel more focused. I don't feel that I have more energy. I don't know why my hands and feet are unusually cold these days (other than the fact that Chicago is unusually cold, too...but then again, I lost over 30 lbs since last winter...). I feel like I am more forgetful sometimes, although other times I think that my brain is working just fine.

Now, I don't exercise as much as I should, and I imagine that a lack of exercise is why I don't feel as much energy as I might otherwise. Getting more oxygen in my body would also probably help with my focus and memory.

I also don't think I get nearly enough variety in my diet. For a long while, carrots were the only vegetable I would eat, and these days I have pretty much added broccoli and celery to my normal meals. I started juicing last week, so now I can get romaine lettuce and kale to my diet, but only if I can find it at the store (which I couldn't when I went on Saturday).

All that said, however, I am still concerned that I don't get enough of what I am supposed to eat. At one point, I was convinced that eating a strict plant-based diet is not only healthiest but also natural, but then I have been reading more and more evidence that suggests otherwise.

I still believe that eating plant-based food is important, but I never liked the idea of taking B12 supplements or fortified foods (since that pretty much suggests that they are unnatural, processed (and therefore unhealthy) foods. It seems to me that the most natural way for me to get B12 is to eat some animal-based foods.

One of the arguments I found against the claims of The China Study is that it may not be animal-based foods that are the problem so much as processed foods. It still didn't make me feel comfortable about eating meat ("it may still be not bad for you!" is a great tag line, I'm sure), there seems to be more and more coming up that suggests that we don't know what happens to a person who lives an entire life as a vegan.

I'm thinking about starting to eat fish and eggs again. Of course, finding such food that hasn't been poisoned may be a challenge, but the main reason why I avoided such food in the first place was not so much that I was convinced that all animal-based foods are bad for me so much as I believed it was safest to eat exclusively plant-based foods. Eating more and more plants hasn't been shown to kill people, but eating more and more animal-based foods has.

In the end, I have doubts about the long-term (lifetime, not just 5 or 10 years from now) effect of remaining on a vegan diet. As I continue to search for an answer, I was wondering if anyone here might point me to evidence that might help.

For example, I remember someone posted a link to a chart that showed that humans were herbivores, but I have since found other charts and explanations that suggest the original charts were using the wrong data, such as intestinal track length. Since I am no expert, I can only conclude that I don't know which one to believe.

In the coming months, I plan to exercise much more often. Perhaps I may need to eat more often then, or maybe I will find that I get too weak. Either way, I can only get more evidence for myself by doing since reading research reports appears to be an unreliable means of discovering the truth.

[joey m]

Please post a typical day's diet so I have some concept of what you are eating. Simply being vegan does not equate to healthy. The diet needs to be high in veggies, fruits, nuts/seeds/avocados and legumes for optimum health.

Also, it is good you are taking a B-12. Are you also taking something to ensure adequate DHA and Vitamin D? DHA is often the missing ingredient for vegans who don't feel quite right.

Remember, farm animals are fed products fortified with B-12 -- so whether you get it directly from a supplement, or from an animal who was fed fortified B-12, you are still getting it from supplemental form. I would prefer to get it direct rather than second-hand.

Best,
joey

[gberardi]

Here's some typical food I eat these days:

Breakfast:
- if I have made almond milk recently, I'll eat Optimum Power Cereal (or some other cereal like Cheerios in a and a glass of orange juice
- otherwise, I just eat two pieces of toast with almond or cashew butter and the glass of OJ
- or oatmeal and OJ
- recently, I have juiced my breakfast: an apple, a handful of baby carrots, and some greens, like celery, romaine lettuce, and/or kale.

Lunch:
- I generally have a peanut-butter (natural) and raisin sandwich, and mostly fruits: apples (Granny Smith is my favorite), grapes, plums, apricots, and peaches. I will usually have baby carrots, and half the time I have celery and/or broccoli.
- Sometimes I have peanut-butter and pickle. I can't believe how good it is. Walnut butter and pickle is amazing, but walnut butter is expensive!


Dinner:
- Rice and beans, in various forms. I try to use brown rice, and I use different kinds of beans.
- Soup
- Chili
- Salad (rarely)
- Pasta (spaghetti and some type of tomato sauce from a jar, usually)

Snacks:
- I try not to eat too many processed foods, but I will usually have some vegan cookies or pita chips or tortilla chips (blue corn, yellow corn, etc), usually in some hummus or bean dip.

Drink:
- I usually drink water will all of my meals.
- Occasionally I will drink apple juice or orange juice

And yes, I would prefer to get the original source than something that was "processed" through an animal first. B-)

DHA and Vitamin D are things I haven't been concerned about. I figure that I get outside once in awhile, but maybe I don't get enough sun. DHA...I am going to do some research now to figure out what I can do about that.

[icesar]

Funny you should ask this, I spent a couple of hours reading about this very topic last night. Let me preface by saying that I'm not vegetarian, although I don't currently include mammals in my diet. I've considered going ovo-lacto-vegetarian, and since I'm a research junkie, I got to doing some reading.

A few of the strongest points that I came away with were:
1. You can't generalize. Veg*an diets can work for people, but that doesn't mean they will work the same for everybody.
2. You can't generalize. The standard american diet (SAD) is probably the worst version or an omnivourous diet. You can't extrapolate the health effects of the SAD to ALL omnivorous diets.
3. Evolutionarily, humans are omnivores. But that is hunter-gatherer omnivores, not agriculturual omnivores.
4. People that follow special diets become emotionally attached to their diets/beliefs, and it's hard for them to discuss them objectively.

The most balanced discussion I found on the topic was at Beyond Vegetarianism--Raw Food, Vegan, Fruitarian, Paleo Diets written by some long-term former vegetarians and a current vegan.

[Cron]

This site is by a vegan registerd dietician ( RD ). It is a thorough and will educate you about all nutrition concerns:

Vegan Health.org : Table of Contents

[Uplift]

Gidday, find out about a guy named Bill Pearl. He is a living example, with years and years of genuine experience about plant based diets, and their effect on health and the body. All the best.

[escapee]

my hands and feet are unusually cold

Oh dear, How many times we have seen such a post from Vegan . gberardi , Listen to your body , when your body says no, you make the change before the symptoms get worsen. It's not too late to try lacto-ovo vegetarian (safer choice?) or even veganism again with better approach when you have fixed those symptoms.

Nutritional value of egg

Eggs provide a significant amount of protein to one's diet, as well as various nutrients.

Chicken eggs are the most commonly eaten eggs, and are highly nutritious. They supply a large amount of complete, high-quality[4] protein (which contains all essential amino acids for humans), and provide significant amounts of several vitamins and minerals, including vitamin A, riboflavin, folic acid, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, choline, iron, calcium, phosphorus and potassium. They are also one of the least expensive single-food sources of complete protein. One large chicken egg contains approximately 7 grams of protein.

[Uplift]

Good answer escapee, when you are healthy, you feel awesome. It's simple. Do something different.

[Uplift]

I can't resist, I'm a personal trainer. Everything escapee said about eggs is true. I don't eat them anymore because of my moral beliefs, but that is only my opinion or choice, and who knows if its right or wrong. Nutrition wise eggs are the true superfood. I personally ate 20 plus eggs a day for over 10 years when involved in heavy training loads and competitive sport. My cholesterol levels were low, my recovery ability, strength and energy levels incredible. I decided it was too cruel to keep taking the eggs from chickens, and stopped eating them. I can get almost as good results from milk products. After seeing Sai Baba's dairy, and how happy the cows were, I figured in a perfect world we could have dairies if they were set up with the cows in mind. Again I stress this is just my view. Nutrition wise, milk provides whey powder, awesome for health, immunity and recovery, calcium caseinate, which keeps protein in your system over a longer period, yogurt (bacteria too), cheese (vegetable 'rennerts') and butter. Protein powder with whey and calcium caseinate is cheap, efficient and convenient. Add some nuts and grains, quinoa, oats, flax, (deluxe porridge with a scoop of vanilla protein powder, ideal breakfast), almonds, walnuts, sesame, beans too (B vitamins, repair vitamin, another one of eggs rreal fortes) and berries (Goji's!!!). You'll easily cover all of the protein, fats, carbs, antioxidants and nutrients if combined with some fruits an vegetables. Spirillina, plankton and chlorella are deluxe additives too. A company called 'DEVA' makes DHA from plankton. Try and eat 5 or six smaller, but not too small, meals in a day so you have a constant trickle of nutrients. Easy on the system, deluxe for metabolism. If you don't want even milk products, it's tougher to get enough protein, and you need to be really stringent and adept at combining nuts, grains, legumes, in away that isn't too hard on digestion. Listen to yourself, use your waistline as a guide to how much you need. No way should you have cold hands and feet, or doubts about how you feel. You can feel awesome if you want. Figure out something new that suits you, trust how you feel. Escapee is right, change now.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Uplift

If you don't want even milk products, it's tougher to get enough protein, and you need to be really stringent and adept at combining nuts, grains, legumes, in away that isn't too hard on digestion.

no way! it's very easy with rice protein.

but yes I would second your suggestions, make sure you're getting enough total calories as well (looks like about 1500 you're getting right now, is that enough for you? are you male, female, height, weight?)
and also enough protein (personally 25% of calories from quality protein works for me). And to make sure all your nutrients are covered, a complete green meal or multivitamin.

and, something that helped for me, besides putting fat in the balance at about 25% of calories, was to get a tiny bit of saturated fat, about 10 grams of saturated fat per day, from fresh coconut or coconut oil. something about the unsaturated/saturated fat balance, but my body in particular likes having a bit of that in balance.


hope that you feel better!

[Uplift]

Oh no! You've hooked me! No way alright. Strength athletes will roll around on the floor laughing at the thought of relying on rice protein. 'Look mum, I've found a way to dissappear!' Sorry, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I'm 51 and I've been training for over 35 years. If I could train at the level I want to, relying on rice (and I've tried), I would. It's so cheap and versatile it would be deluxe, but bottom line, forget optimum fitness. As extreme as strength orientated activities are, they are a great way of exposing recovery ability, and diet is a major factor in recovery. Try going hard on rice (and I'm not trying to be confrontational, or condesending, just honest), and you'll soon run into trouble, probably eventually in the form of mystery virus's and flu's. When you witness someone really fit and strong, it's pretty awe inspiring, and puts things into perspective (like bad backs from lifting your shopping bags, or knee pains from walking to Mcdonald's... unbelievable!). I'll guarantee, its nothing to do with rice protein, and it's an indicator of awesome health (unless of course drugs are involved). I wholeheartily agree though, if you don't want any animal protein sources, clever rice, grain, nut and legume combinations are deluxe, and a necessity. But talk about putting in a dollar to get back 10 cents!

[joey m]

Sorry Uplift, but you are espousing some very outdated and disproven theories. First of all, the protein combination myth for vegan sources of protein has been disproven for over twenty years.

Please read the following:

Where did the concept of “essential amino acids” come from? In 1952, William Rose and his colleagues completed research that determined the human requirements for the eight essential amino acids. They set the “minimum amino acid requirement” by making it equal to the greatest amount required by any single person in their study. To set the “recommended amino acid requirement,” they simply doubled the minimum requirements. This “recommended amino acid requirement” was considered a “definitely safe intake.”

Today, if you calculate the amount of each essential amino acid provided by unprocessed plant foods and compare these values with those determined by Rose, you will find that any single one, or combination, of these whole natural plant foods provides all of the essential amino acids. Furthermore, these whole natural plant foods provide not just the “minimum requirements” but provide amounts far greater than the “recommended requirements.”

Modern researchers know that it is virtually impossible to design a calorie-sufficient diet based on unprocessed whole natural plant foods that is deficient in any of the amino acids. (The only possible exception could be a diet based solely on fruit.)

I too am a personal trainer and can tell you for absolute certain that you do not need animal proteins to get strong and fit. It is more difficult to become an elite bodybuilder without animal foods, but I do not classify this practice as being healthy nor fit. Even then, though, there are some vegan bodybuilders who have developed some reasonably nice physiques.

I myself am very fit and strong, and rely exclusively on a vegan diet to get there. The fact that you are justifying your positions by listening to weight lifters who rely almost exclusively found in Weider type magazines (which are by the way funded by the protein manufacturing companies), does not make the argument more valid. It means that you have been taken in by the media hype rather than solid science.

As far as rice protein goes, you will get a strong argument from Mike Mahler that what you are saying is simply not true. Mike Mahler is a leading trainer, and you can read some articles from him at these links:

Bodybuilding.com - Mike Mahler - Getting Big & Strong On A Vegan Diet!
Bodybuilding.com Writer: Mike Mahler - Aggressive Strength Coach!

Furthermore, eggs are hardly super foods from the perspective of health. They certainly have loads of protein which will indeed build muscle, but from a longevity perspective, they are not nutrient dense foods. I avoid eggs not only for ethical reasons, but even more importantly, for health reasons.

Best,
Joey

[gberardi]

The more I have been thinking about it, the more I believe a test is in order. I will start exercising more to see if these symptoms go away. I'll hold off on adding eggs and fish for now.

Also, perhaps I just have an imbalance in which I am getting too much of one nutrient and not enough of a related one. The links you all have posted are very informative and will provide me with some ideas of what to add to my diet. Perhaps I just need to eat bell peppers more often, and while I have increased the green leafies recently, I might need to eat even more.

[Jaben]

I applaud you for identifying the need for more green leafies! I feel great when I get plenty of greens. They are a great source for minerals and vitamins and help with detoxification. I like wheat grass shots or kale/apple/lime/ginger juice. If you have access to whole collard greens, they make great tortilla style wraps.

I have been eating exclusively raw vegan for over 4 months. A few weeks ago I started feeling light headed at 3PM each day. I admit I haven't been juicing wheat grass much the past couple of months, but the problem went away when I started eating more calories at lunch and bringing fruit for an afternoon snack.

Also, starting the new year I've been running every evening. I find it increases my energy and improves my mood and ability to focus throughout the day.

I think it requires some testing as you mentioned. Good luck!

[Uplift]

Jaben is right. Do it, try different things and you'll soon see what works, regardless of what anyone speculates. Science likes to rate foods. You'll often see a % value assigned to foods. It is supposed to be a measure of their nutrional value and efficiency. Science (the ultimate marketing tool for the world's most obese nations) hammers eggs, yet the assign the value to foods based against eggs, which are the 100% standard. It's simple. Look at all the cultures and peoples throughout time. See what they ate. At one end of the scale you had protein, fat, and calorie deficient pygmies and bushmen, the other end Nigerians, Polynesians. It also works in the different cultures of the same country. There is no right and wrong way to be. Just pick how you want to be and eat accordingly. Be honest and trust your experiences. I totally agree joey m, bodybuilding isnt very healthy. It isn't a measure of fitness. But facts are facts, and it is a measure of extreme recovery ability. Those people are so fanatical and obsessed, that they would eat fly dung if it would make them grow and recover. It is full of fads and scams. Eventually they all fizzle, because the bodybuilders either grow and recover or don't. Unfortunately rice didn't make the cut as a protein source. Or they would all be scarfing tubs of 'Atom Bomb X Riso Protein. It would be so profitable it would be ridiculous. They tried, marketers try everything. Soy made some guys a bit of money. But thats all irrelevant. Thanks for the websites joey m. If any one wants to eat no animal protein they'll be invaluable. Try them, its the only way you'll know if it works or not.

[escapee]

eggs are hardly super foods from the perspective of health. They certainly have loads of protein which will indeed build muscle

Eggs may not superfood to some due to cholesterol scare. But it is certainly nutritious in a nutrition standpoint. It's not only loaded with protein but also rich in Choline(brain nutrient), Vitamin A , D , E, Vitamin B , minerals like iron, cacium, and more.

BTW, egg has also been regarded as a brain food by the Japanese.

Egg consumption in Japan is higher than in America (40 pounds per person per year, versus 34 in the US).10 The Japanese consider eggs to be a brain food. The story is told of a woman whose husband was killed during the war. She had an infant son and throughout the following years she gradually sold off all of her furniture to provide her boy with one egg per day, "so that he could go to college." The boy grew up to be an intelligent child and, in fact, did go to college in the postwar years. Eggs are consumed as omelets, custards and in soups. They are also an important ingredient in noodles and batters.

There is no doubt that you can get the major delivery form of choline from Soy (loaded with trypsin inhibitor, Anti thyroid/minerals compound and etc), Vitamin D from sunlight and pills, Vitamin A from the limited conversion of beta carotene ( dark green vegetables ) and B12 from pills. However, If you could just take a couple of eggs, you would get all the key nutrients listed above. To say that egg is not "nutrient dense" is just is just ... ohhhhhhh .... doesnt make sense to me (no offense)

Egg is also one of the reasons why groups like seventh day adventists are among the longest living people in the world. They get all their nutrients not only from vegetables, fruits and grains but also from small amount of animal food such as egg and dairy.

I'm not saying that you cant do the same with a strict Vegan diet ( i have tried it n it had sicken me ). It's just a little easier to meet the nutrients requirement for most people by consuming small amount of nutrients dense animal food such as a good clean organic egg .

Remember, Lower overall serum cholesterol ( HDL/LDL ) has been linked to whole host of mental disorders . If you're well aware of this, Vegan Omega 3 fatty acid, olive oil (monosaturated) and limited coconut oil (saturated fat) should be on your dining table .

Low Cholesterol linked to hemorrhagic stroke

[gberardi]

Well, the main reason why I was considering fish and eggs is because I read that the Japanese, who eat a predominantly plant-based diet with some fish, have the longest lifetimes in the world.

I have to say that it is true that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. B-)

[joey m]

Uplift -- Your post is well-taken. Again, I am not advocating rice protein (nor soy for that matter) for bodybuilders. But for the generic fitness enthusiast, these supplements are more than sufficient to see great muscle and strength gains. I actually avoid all protein supplements, and am on a vegan diet, and have never had difficulty in gaining size or strength.

Escapee -- What is your definition of nutrient dense? Eggs simply don't come close to qualifying under my definition. To me nutrient density is a simple equation of the amount of micronutrients (vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals and antioxidants) divided by calories. Because eggs are loaded in calories, their limited number of nutrients makes this a particularly low nutrient food. The fact that it has certain nutrients in it is undeniable, but that is not sufficient for it to be nutrient dense. Further, I consider the Vitamin A in eggs to be a far inferior form that has been shown in studies to be less than optimal for health. Our bodies do far better with a natural mix of carotenoids found in vegetation than it does with the preformed vitamin A. Too much preformed vitamin A increases risk for all cause mortality, decreases bone density, puts pregant women at risk of birth defects....

I also think that neither coconut oil nor olive oil are health foods.

Best,
Joey

[joey m]

Gberardi:

Sorry, I never did get back to you which should have been my main focus. I agree that your diet is way too low in leafy greens. Your diet is also a bit too high in starch carbs, which tends to make me feel a touch letargic. If you replace some of those starchy carbs with greens and legumes, I think you will notice some definite improvements.

In terms of the Japanese, they tend to be healthy in spite of the fish, not because of it. There is one caveat -- by eating the fish they are getting ample levels of the DHA which is so important. You can reap the benefits of this by taking a vegan dha supplement, without having the downsides of eating fish. Fish is the most polluted food in our food chain (tends to be loaded in heavy metals, dioxins and other petrochemicals).

By taking a 175mg to 350mg dose of dha daily, your dha levels should become optimal within three months or so. Low DHA levels are strongly linked to many conditions, including depression.

Best,
Joey

[gberardi]

Originally Posted by joey m

Sorry, I never did get back to you which should have been my main focus. I agree that your diet is way too low in leafy greens. Your diet is also a bit too high in starch carbs, which tends to make me feel a touch letargic. If you replace some of those starchy carbs with greens and legumes, I think you will notice some definite improvements.

I will definitely make a bigger effort to get those greens. B-)

In terms of the Japanese, they tend to be healthy in spite of the fish, not because of it. There is one caveat -- by eating the fish they are getting ample levels of the DHA which is so important. You can reap the benefits of this by taking a vegan dha supplement, without having the downsides of eating fish. Fish is the most polluted food in our food chain (tends to be loaded in heavy metals, dioxins and other petrochemicals).

By taking a 175mg to 350mg dose of dha daily, your dha levels should become optimal within three months or so. Low DHA levels are strongly linked to many conditions, including depression.

Ok, but here is my problem. I am trying to eat healthy, which would presumably mean natural. So far, we haven't been able to engineer healthy food, and I doubt we will anytime soon.

That said, when I started cutting meat and processed foods from my diet, it was because I was trying to eat more naturally. I don't take a B12 supplement because I don't like the idea that I have to take pills in general (say for headaches or a cold), let alone to get a vital nutrient. Originally, I thought B12 was my only concern due to the fact that I can't trust I'll get enough B12 from the soil that the plants come from...especially since I wash the plants I do eat anyway.

I may eventually start taking B12 supplements since I don't eat the B12 fortified cereal as often, nor do I drink B12-fortified soy/nut/rice milk at all.

But now I have to take a supplement for DHA? I've been reading that I can get enough DHA from eating more walnuts and flax seeds. Someone suggested hemp seed oil in another forum, which blew me away because I didn't know hemp was legal for anything but clothing.

In any case, it seems that I either take supplements, which is not what I want to do, or I have to add a lot more variety to my relatively boring diet. The latter sounds more exciting and healthy to me.

I just took the The World's Healthiest Foods: Food Advisor and it is interesting how adding certain food groups to my diet more often can make a difference. I didn't add dairy, eggs, or meat, and it seems my only concerns are vitamin D and B12. This assumes, of course, that I get enough omega-3 fatty acids, which doesn't seem too hard if I eat the right plants.

[joey m]

GBerardi:

I understand the frustration of wanting to eat as natural as possible. But, there are certain realities in this day and age. The only reliable food sources of B-12 are extremely polluted and unhealthy foods. Accordingly, since we are washing our produce so caref