When they say: But plants suffer too!

[C33]

I am a vegetarian, living in France, for now, and am constantly around meat eaters. Most, are uncomfortable with the fact that I need a"special meal" when they invite me, even though, I tell them all the time that I can bring my own food.

As many of you who are vegetarians or vegans, I am constantly asked about my choice.
Being a lacto-ovo vegetarians, I do get a fair share of: eggs are babies and I also get, quite often, the line: "Vegetables suffer too", with a good imitation of a salad screaming for mercy thrown in.

I am a good sport and laugh along with the crowd,but I don t like my choices to be unvalidated by the teasing. I would like to be able to have a repartee that would stop the teasing, so that they see I am really serious about my choices, and convey to people that their meat-eating habits are hurtful to them and the animals and that is no laughing matter.All of this in a light, playful way.

1- What is the scientific data about plants suffering, and how does it compare to the suffering of animals, how to explain that to a layman?

2-I do understand that saying that plants suffer is a way to deflate the real issue of meat eating as murder. How do I reply to plants suffer too, by reconnecting to the subject at hand: animals suffer!

I am not sure this post belongs to health and fitness, feel free to transfer somewhere else in the forum.

[escapee]

To tell you truth, i'm currently more concerned about the long term health of of strict vegan/vegetarians than how the plants or fruits suffer.

A good article about strict veganism. Read it with open mind.

In search of the best vegeterian diet (for rats)

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by C33

I am a vegetarian, living in France, for now, and am constantly around meat eaters. Most, are uncomfortable with the fact that I need a"special meal" when they invite me, even though, I tell them all the time that I can bring my own food.

As many of you who are vegetarians or vegans, I am constantly asked about my choice.
Being a lacto-ovo vegetarians, I do get a fair share of: eggs are babies and I also get, quite often, the line: "Vegetables suffer too", with a good imitation of a salad screaming for mercy thrown in.

I am a good sport and laugh along with the crowd,but I don t like my choices to be unvalidated by the teasing. I would like to be able to have a repartee that would stop the teasing, so that they see I am really serious about my choices, and convey to people that their meat-eating habits are hurtful to them and the animals and that is no laughing matter.All of this in a light, playful way.

1- What is the scientific data about plants suffering, and how does it compare to the suffering of animals, how to explain that to a layman?

2-I do understand that saying that plants suffer is a way to deflate the real issue of meat eating as murder. How do I reply to plants suffer too, by reconnecting to the subject at hand: animals suffer!

I am not sure this post belongs to health and fitness, feel free to transfer somewhere else in the forum.

Anyone who has came up with the 'plants suffer' nonsense are obviously so uniformed about any real issues that they resort to childlike hypothesis.

Plants have no central nervous system. They have evolved more or less, to be digested by herbivores like us humans and in fact if you look at the seesds of many plants they do not become dispersed until they are digested and excreted by animals.

Secondly many plants do not grow from seed until they are scorched by bush fires for example. Doesnt sound like these plants have feelings eh?

What you normally find is that pathetic uniformed attcks like the one you described are from those who are inwardly scared by their own health. Fact- eating animals raises cholesterol, encourages organ disease and cancers.

I have gpne past the stage where I care what other people do to their bodies. Unfortunately though the billions of animals that have to die often with immense suffering prior to their deaths, are the reason why I do care.

Those morons who use the plant argument are in fact arguing that animals DO suffer! So next time one of these pinnacles of rudeness attempts to belittle your lifestyle choices, remind them that they are supporting your premises that animals feel pain and suffer. So do they feel happy about that?

[escapee]

Fact- eating animals raises cholesterol, encourages organ disease and cancers.

I think a high HDL(good)/LDL(bad) ratio and a low triglyceride/HDL (below 3) ratio is the ideal way to prevent CVD . The ways to achieve this is eating plenty of vegetables (vitamin C, folic acid), some fruits , limiting grain and sugary product, moderate use of olive oils, supplement/animal products that contain rich source of DHA/EPA and B12 (homocysteine linked CVD and stroke)

I have now come to believe that cancer is mostly contributed by
1) trans fatty acid
2) deep fried/processed meat ( heteocyclic amino acid)
3) deep fried/processed carbohydrate ( acrylamide )
4) stress, frequent anger and lack of rest
5) commercial based animals products containing hormone and antibiotics
6) Water/Air pollution

7) Sugar ( cancer loves it ), I have yet to find an alternative treatment of cancer that allow sugary products.

8 ) imbalance ratio of omega 3 / omega 6 . Omega 3 saves life of terminally ill cancer patient

9) Alcohol and smoking

I cant list organic/range fed meat in the list because cancer and CVD is almost non existence in the old Eskimo population until of late when the fish population is contaminated with mercury and PCB .

A diet high in saturated fats, such as red meat, is not the only diet that raises serum triglyceride level. It is more important to note that, a diet high in simple carbohydrates and starchy food (such as sugar, rice, and wheat respectively) can raise serum triglyceride drastically through insulin. Only 20% of the ingested sugar load can be burned or stored as glycogen at any one meal. The remainder 80% will be converted to triglyceride which can contribute to the buildup of acidity, or stored as fat deposits.

A BIG FAT LIE

[escapee]

and finally, Low cholesterol is linked to severe depression .

low cholesterol linked to depression - Yahoo! Search Results

Optimal ratio of HDL/LDL and Tri/HDL seem to be the right way to go as far as cholesterol level is concerned .... I'm still learning about all these and would appreciate someone to correct me if i'm wrong

[Cron]

Having been a vegan for over 12 years and vegetarian for over 25 years "don't plants have feelings too?" is one of the things I have been asked over and over again.

You know what? I don't think one person who has asked me that...ever, gave me the impression of a person genuinely interested in reducing the cruelty involved with their diet.

It is brought either as a part of making my ethical choices free meal time entertainment or as a way of blowing me off so they can feel settled in dismisssing what I have had to say.

When people do this to me I tell them those things. I then ask them if they are genuinely interested in reducing cruelty to animals, helping the environment or improving their health. I tell them that if they are I can write down a list of books for them later.

That usually shuts them up cold

[Erin Pavlina]

I think PETA has a good answer for this question. If you pop over to their site and do a search you might find their answer. I know I read it at some point and they've probably got it on their site.

[mtrimpe]

I'm not a vegetarian, yet, but I do think I will become one. My reason for it is quite a different one though so perhaps it might be used as a repartee.

I want to become a vegetarian because eating meat is lazy. I believe we have to murder plants too when we eat them, just like animals and to me there is no ethical distinction between the two. It's life, we're eating it, period. If we don't do it however, we die, unless we learn how to how to do photosynthesis, live directly off of the energy of the sun.

Eating is about ingesting energy, which all eventually has to come from the sun. Face it, even oil comes from the sun. Every organism has to find some way of getting that energy from the sun.

So why do I think it's bad to eat meat? Well I don't. I think we must be really careful with the energy we receive from the sun. We must use it sparingly. We must conserve it as much as we can, since how little of it we need to live determines how many people this world can harbor, or determines how little 'negative' effect we have on this world (which is linked to the spiritual concept of non-interference in my mind).

So why eating meat is bad for me is that it's lazy and inefficient. When we eat meat, we use the animals to do the hard work of turning plants into tissue for us. Then we kill them and consume the fruits of their hard labour just to make our life easier. In the process we've robbed an animal of his freedom and forced him to grow up as a slave doing our hard work.

Apart from that all the while that animal has to spend a lot of extra energy to live himself, to walk around, grow up, enjoy himself etc. Then we have become SO arrogant that we only want the best parts of his efforts and throw the rest away, all in all disrespectfully throwing away things that animal has worked so hard for in his enslaved life.

So why I would like to become vegetarian is because it allows us to:
1. Get closer to getting our energy directly from the source, the sun.
2. Free ourselves from having to enslave a part of nature (cattle)
3. Improves the energy efficiency of this world.

This doesn't mean I think vegetarians are home free ... they still force plants to grow in man-made gardens, limiting their freedom to explore the world, enslaving them as well. Vegetarianism only allows us to stop doing that to the animals as well. If you want to be truly respectful to nature then:
1. Learn how to do photosynthesis
2. Only eat plants (or meat) that have led a free and fulfilling life in the wild and that is willing to surrender it's life to serve you.

Hehe, I sound crazy again, but hope it helps clarify someone's thoughts.

[Steve Pavlina]

Since animals eat tons of plants to gain weight, animal eaters kill a heck of a lot more plants than veg*ans. Plus they kill even more plants via clear-cutting to provide grazing land.

Calorie for calorie or pound for pound, there's no comparison -- animal eaters are the greatest enemy the plant world has ever seen.

[Cron]

Thanks for the pointer Erin. I did some cut-and-pasting as I thought others might be into it:

From:
About PETA >> FAQs >> General

“What about plants?”

There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain because they are devoid of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. It is theorized that animals are able to feel pain so that they can use it for self-protection purposes. For example, if you touch something hot and feel pain, you will learn from the pain that you should not touch that item in the future. Since plants cannot move from place to place and do not need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous. From a physiological standpoint, plants are completely different from mammals. Unlike animals’ body parts, many perennial plants, fruits, and vegetables can be harvested over and over again without dying.

If you are concerned about the impact of vegetable agriculture on the environment, you should know that a vegetarian diet is better for the environment than a meat-based one, since the vast majority of grains and legumes raised today are used as feed for cattle. Rather than eating animals, such as cows, who must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh, you can save many more plants’ lives (and destroy less land) by eating vegetables directly.

[ahimel]

Here's the PETA response:

"There is no science today that supports the belief that plants experience pain—devoid as they are of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. The main reason why animals have the ability to experience pain is so that they can protect themselves from harm. If you touch something that hurts you, the pain teaches you to leave it alone in the future. Since plants cannot move to escape pain and lack the mobility or processes to learn to avoid certain things, the ability to feel pain would be superfluous and evolutionarily illogical in plants.

Even if plants were able to suffer, it wouldn’t justify causing pain and distress to animals like dogs, cows, rodents, or chickens, who we know are capable of great suffering."

I think it comes down to why you're a vegetarian. If it's for health reasons, then you can say, "It's not about animal suffering; it's about being healthy." If it's to avoid harming animals, tell them you'd be happy to reconsider your position; can they point you to the evidence that plants suffer? If it's because it makes you feel better, say so! "I'm a vegetarian because eating meat hurts my stomach and drains my energy."

Some hosts may get irritated with veggies when they percieve you as trying to put more work on their plates. Depending on who invites you over and your relationship with them, you may try a polite refusal. "I'd love to come over, but I'm afraid it would be too much work for you. I don't eat meat, and I don't want you to have to go to the extra work of making something just for me." In most cases, the host will say, "Oh, it's no problem! I'd love to have you anyway!" But once they've said that, it's not your fault that they have extra work, it's their choice.

The other option is to tease them right back. "Of course they do. I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals; I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants." Or use some of Steve's lines "Look, there's a dog. He could be your lunch if you hurry! Quick, while the owner isn't looking -- show me your warrior fierceness!"

It all comes down to how confident you are in your decision, your relationship with the people involved, and your personal preferences for handling it.

[Frans]

Whether plants experience pain or not is irrelevant: the fact is that plants are living beings, just like animals and humans.

If you are a vegan not because of health issues but because you don't want to harm any living being, what will you answer if they ask you "But plants are living beings too"?...

Or maybe you are a Jain?

[escapee]

"But plants are living beings too"

You know, having gone back to "semi"-vegetarian from vegan, i wouldnt ask such a question to harrass the emotion of the vege guys . Why ? They are doing their best to reduce the suffer of those living beings seen in the inhumane commercial animal farm. We all know the difference between a hog having its testicle pulled off and a plant being uprooted.

My only concern is whether the majority of strict vegans would be able to live a long, healthy and productive life.

I'm all for the good old organic/range fed farm as a solution for both the consumer health and significant reduction in cruelty of animal treatment.
Learn from Luigi Cornaro

[jamasiel]

Originally Posted by Frans

Whether plants experience pain or not is irrelevant: the fact is that plants are living beings, just like animals and humans.

If you are a vegan not because of health issues but because you don't want to harm any living being, what will you answer if they ask you "But plants are living beings too"?...

Or maybe you are a Jain?

This is being disingenuous - both recouching the issue with something most vegans don't mean - "not harming any living being" and making things equivalent that aren't - plants and animals.
Sure..."living beings", but drawing one parallel doesn't mean all attributes are therefore the same.

[fdjaudinesjr]

You don't have to explain anything from them and try to go down from their level of conciousness (they won't listen anyway).

Just remember this, "We are what we eat".

I believe Einstein also said that.

I've lost my book "Beyond the Superconcious Mind". There's an explanation about it on that book.

It's an Ananda Marga book...

... I used to be a Margii... Namaskar!

[maclinda]

When I go out to get some herbs whether for food or healing (really, is it any different? ) I always ask the plants. It actually seems that the plants seem to offer a suitable sprig to me.

I know that sounds a bit "out there" perhaps but boy are those herbs good.

And no, I don't think they suffer, I think they are pleased to be of service.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by maclinda

And no, I don't think they suffer, I think they are pleased to be of service.

That brings up an interesting point. Perhaps the animals, at least the ones who aren't made to suffer, are also pleased to be of service?

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by Frans

Whether plants experience pain or not is irrelevant: the fact is that plants are living beings, just like animals and humans.

If you are a vegan not because of health issues but because you don't want to harm any living being, what will you answer if they ask you "But plants are living beings too"?...

Or maybe you are a Jain?

If the argument is that a vegan is someone who doesn't eat living beings, then that makes an omnivore someone who does eat living beings. So why don't omnivores eat babies? They're even easier to grow than vegetables.

Everybody has to draw a line somewhere. There's no reason to be a Jaininst or a Cannibal; there's a middle ground too.

[Sunsingh]

"Vegetables suffer too"

Ask them "Really?!! .. Did your carrots tell you that?" Make sure you make a face conveying feelings of some puzzlement mixed with concern and the beginnings of shock/horror at this revolting revelation.

[Jaben]

I've answered that by saying I currently am better able to relate to the suffering of the animal than the plant but am working on it. And I'll suggest if they are concerned about the suffering of the plants that they can become a fruititarian. Maybe you can request that they deposit the seeds post consumption in your garden.

I like Steve's point that more plants over all are eaten when you eat an animal than when you eat a plant. Thanks!

If you want to risk some debate you could suggest that the distinction between eating animals versus eating plants is similar to the distinction of canibalism versus eating other species.

[escapee]

they can become a fruititarian.

No no dont do that please, go for organic Lacto-ovo as a safer choice

Check out the potential danger of strict fruitarian with open mind

He told me about his experiences while following Arnold Ehret, which led to deficiencies in his diet. He once went on a grape cure, recommended by Johanna Brandt. He lived on nothing but grapes, cases of them for about 35 days. He ate pounds of them at each meal. By the 32nd day, his gum was bleeding, and his teeth loosened in their sockets. He said that one of his teeth fell out of his mouth. He exclaimed, "My God, I am detoxicating my teeth."

I began this project testing raw vegetarian/vegan diets, cooked, lacto-vegetarian, ovo-vegetarian, lacto-ovo-vegetarian, the addition of fish, fowl, meat etc. both raw and cooked. After awhile, I tested the fruitarian diet. In a cage of 40 white mice I put all kinds of fruit. They ate some but were still hungry, so I added fresh corn-on-the-cob and avocado. All seemed well until the 3rd day, when I went to the cage, I saw 8 dead bodies with the heads missing and parts of some bodies eaten. I was shocked at the carnage. This was equivalent to severe deficiencies occurring to humans after 2 months on this type of diet. I immediately put the cage on a full diet including raw milk cheese, cooked food, grains, etc. to stop the deaths. Even with the diet change, other deaths followed for about 4 more days before it ended and conditions returned to normal.

[ferociousgoals]

escapee, I respect that your diet has worked well for you and that you have research to back it up, but I think it verges on disrespectful when you come into every vegan thread and try to push people into eating dairy and eggs. There are a ton of healthy, nutritionally balanced vegans, and for some people, the difficulty of supplementing and juggling nutrients is worth it considering the ethical costs of eating animal products.

I'm not asking you to change at all (hey, what works for each person is inarguable!) and I'm not asking you to stop posting, only to consider that in threads where people who have already made their nutritional and/or ethical choices, coming in and proposing your diet is starting to seem a bit rude.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by ferociousgoals

escapee, I respect that your diet has worked well for you and that you have research to back it up, but I think it verges on disrespectful when you come into every vegan thread and try to push people into eating dairy and eggs.

While it's true that escapee recommended milk and eggs, the post was in response to fruititarian - a form of diet where you eat only those things that don't hurt the life that created it. For the most part this allows fruit but not vegetables -- the apple tree goes on living after you pick an apple, but the carrot has to be uprooted in order for you to eat it. Technically speaking, it would also allow eggs & dairy - breakfast eggs are unfertilized and cows don't die when you drink milk - but most fruititarians are vegan nonetheless. Unfortunately for people who like protein, soybeans die in the creation of tofu, so the fruititarian diet is extremely difficult to stick to while also meeting your nutritional needs.

Escapee said nothing about the dangers of veganism, nor did his/her quotes on fruititarian research.

Of course the entire post discouraging fruititarianism was a little off-topic, since no one was seriously suggesting it. It was suggested as a sarcastic remark to counter other people's sarcastic remarks. I'm pretty sure if someone greats news of your diet with, "But plants suffer, too!" they're not going to be open-minded enough to switch to fruititarianism, so it's not actually a danger.

[ferociousgoals]

It wasn't escapee's first post on this thread--read up. Also not the first entry on a vegan thread on this forum.

Maybe it's just me, I don't know. It feels to me like if I went into threads where women are having trouble with their boyfriends and suggesting that the best solution isn't working on whatever specific problem they have, but instead becoming a lesbian. I have personal experience that has shown that this option is better for me, I can pull up all sorts of research about crime rates/monogamy/life span comparing the genders, etc. It's vaguely related to the topic (relationships between humans) but it's not germane to their actual question. If someone wants to know something about veganism, an answer that is "eggs and cheese and here is research showing vegans are unhealthy" is not entirely germane and somewhat disrespectful of the original poster's question.

I'll leave it from here, it was just gnawing on me, as a 98% vegan continually forced to deal with pressure from omnivores every day out in the world, that even vegan threads here reliably have someone pushing animal products.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by ferociousgoals

It wasn't escapee's first post on this thread--read up. Also not the first entry on a vegan thread on this forum.

Maybe it's just me, I don't know.

It's not just you, I find this very irritating as well. I agree completely with what you're saying.

[Narz]

Originally Posted by escapee

To tell you truth, i'm currently more concerned about the long term health of of strict vegan/vegetarians than how the plants or fruits suffer.

A good article about strict veganism. Read it with open mind.

In search of the best vegeterian diet (for rats)

This family (two generations) does quite well on an all vegan diet. Anti-vegan articles have begun to bore me (Mercola, WestonPricians, Sally Felton, etc.).

As for fruits and vegetables suffering? Not likely, they have no central nervous system. Not to mention fruits "want" (from a reproductive standpoint) to be eating (and some of their seeds dropped or sh!t out), same with nuts (the trees hope you eat some but drop others which will then sprout). Greens can be picked without killing the plant. Milk can be obtained humanely (I'm vegetarian, not vegan, I enjoy raw goat's and sheep's milk ).

[Gazzali]

Originally Posted by C33

I am a vegetarian, living in France, for now, and am constantly around meat eaters. Most, are uncomfortable with the fact that I need a"special meal" when they invite me, even though, I tell them all the time that I can bring my own food.

As many of you who are vegetarians or vegans, I am constantly asked about my choice.
Being a lacto-ovo vegetarians, I do get a fair share of: eggs are babies and I also get, quite often, the line: "Vegetables suffer too", with a good imitation of a salad screaming for mercy thrown in.

I am a good sport and laugh along with the crowd,but I don t like my choices to be unvalidated by the teasing. I would like to be able to have a repartee that would stop the teasing, so that they see I am really serious about my choices, and convey to people that their meat-eating habits are hurtful to them and the animals and that is no laughing matter.All of this in a light, playful way.

1- What is the scientific data about plants suffering, and how does it compare to the suffering of animals, how to explain that to a layman?

2-I do understand that saying that plants suffer is a way to deflate the real issue of meat eating as murder. How do I reply to plants suffer too, by reconnecting to the subject at hand: animals suffer!

I am not sure this post belongs to health and fitness, feel free to transfer somewhere else in the forum.

Hi there

I will like to take the middle path. But if given a choice i prefer vegi than meati and i proposed something here Beneficial Learning for Outstanding Generation

gazzali

[escapee]

This family (two generations) does quite well on an all vegan diet. Anti-vegan articles have begun to bore me (Mercola, WestonPricians, Sally Felton, etc.).

As for fruits and vegetables suffering? Not likely, they have no central nervous system. Not to mention fruits "want" (from a reproductive standpoint) to be eating (and some of their seeds dropped or sh!t out), same with nuts (the trees hope you eat some but drop others which will then sprout). Greens can be picked without killing the plant. Milk can be obtained humanely (I'm vegetarian, not vegan, I enjoy raw goat's and sheep's milk ).

if you fell sick with strict vegan diet, those article would be of your interest. if you are well with the diet those article would bore you to hell. I guess that's human nature. Yeah i consider raw Lacto-vegetarian a safer/better choice than veganism. Raw milk power

One piece boring advice, listen to your body and make adjustment as needed to prevent overt deficiency problem. once you're in it , it's really really difficult to get back to the original state.

[ethereal]

I don't really have a particular stand that I take (maybe slightly biased towards meat-eating), but just a few comments by Dr. Hawkins regarding plants/animals and diet:

- Animals are conscious but are not aware that they exist / are conscious.
(My own interpretation: They may register pain and react accordingly but do not think they are "dying" or "suffering" as such.)

- Plants are not conscious (not entirely sure if I remember this correctly).

- All life benefits those above it and benefits from those below it. And in the viewpoint of reincarnation/karma, an animal that is sacrificed for food earns the karmic merit to be reborn into a "higher" being; this was well known and sanctified by Native Americans. If we all stopped eating meat, animals would not have any bodies to reincarnate into

- Vegetarianism calibrates at 205 (integrous). Vegetarianism as an act of devotion to God calibrates a lot higher.

[natopoto11]

Act according to your own morality.

It seems that you avoid meat because you believe that it promotes the suffering of the animal. The only counter argument that can possibly be offered to the "plants suffer too" argument is that they lack a central nervous system.

Now here is the thing. You all have a higher consciousness than most people and are capable of freeing yourselves from the bounds of convention. So the first question that you need to ask yourself is "what is it that I perceive as suffering?"

Most people will respond to questions based on their own experiences. They think "things that cause me to suffer must cause other beings similar to myself to suffer." This means that you are projecting your reality onto other beings. Since the CNS is perceived as causing pain in individuals, it is logical to believe that since plants lack a CNS, they are incapable of suffering.

Is it possible for a being to experience suffering in a way that is different from your suffering? I believe that each individual interprets their existence in a different way. Some interpretations are similar to others, while some are very different. What may be considered suffering to me may not be the same that you consider suffering. In a similar way, what I consider suffering for a plant or an animal may not be the same for what the plant or animal believes.

Your decisions in life should be based on what you believe to be true. You should not base your decisions on what you believe others believe. You are not the cow. You are not the plant. You are yourself and must act accordingly.