When it comes to a diet of vegans or meat eaters,

[ginkgo]

it is very complex to do it right, but there are thousands of ways to do it wrong. For example if you do not eat foods with vitamin C, you can get scurvy. This happened to people on ships who ate mostly fish.

If you do not get enough vitamin D, you can get rickets and increase chances of cancer and other problems. I could go on and on and on but you get the idea. If a person cares about their health, they should learn the important things in nutrition. Note that the concept of simple and complex carbohydrates is complex but there is no necessity to health to address this. The truth is that plant foods (like vegetables) contain both.

What is important to know is that nature makes the best foods and man invents the worst things like trans fats that are illegal in some places now. Animals and man have survived millions of years on just foods made by nature, not man-made foods. According to one chart of the bigger countries with the longest living people, Japan was #1 (they are a country of health enthusiasts) and America was 38th.

[Gabo]

Many people get caught up in what type of diet someone has (vegan, vegetarian, meat, etc) but I think what's far more important for a healthy diet is what kinds of foods you eat within whatever restrictions you place on yourself. It is quite possible to eat very unhealthy foods on a vegan diet, for example, or to eat mainly healthy foods while still eating animals. So rather than placing labels on how good diets are based on their restrictions, we should instead ask ourselves what exactly we eat and if the things we eat are healthy.

[aggie]

i agree...because of what you stated...i think in more cases than not, imo, vegans or vegetarians are based more on animal compassion than health.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

it is very complex to do it right, but there are thousands of ways to do it wrong. For example if you do not eat foods with vitamin C, you can get scurvy. This happened to people on ships who ate mostly fish.

Ironically, had they eaten mostly fish, they would have avoided scurvy.

I think one thing both camps can agree on is that one should reduce sugar, refined flour and transfats and try to eat, as Pollan put it so nicely: Food.
Which means non-processed natural stuff. Something that was grown or, in the case of meat-eaters, raised. Sometimes I think the rest is details and should be guided by personal taste.

[JohnnyHatch]

I agree. going vegan, vegetarian, has to be done right. It doesn't mean, just stopping to eat meat and then eating only lettuce and apples. You have to get your nutrients other place. Where do you think fish get their vitamin C, from.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatch

I agree. going vegan, vegetarian, has to be done right. It doesn't mean, just stopping to eat meat and then eating only lettuce and apples. You have to get your nutrients other place. Where do you think fish get their vitamin C, from.

Most animals make their own vitamin C.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Most animals make their own vitamin C.

You're thinking Vitamin D. Vitamin C deficiency leads to scurvy.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

You're thinking Vitamin D. Vitamin C deficiency leads to scurvy.

In humans, yes. But a lot of animals do synthesize their own vitamin C. Look it up.

[SmartAlx]

LOL. Well if your point was that animals are a good source of Vitamin C, just look at the list of plants are good sources of Vitamin C.

Vitamin C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sailors didn't take animals aboard to fight scurvy. They took plants like lemons and oranges.

[aelle]

That's not the point ! The point is that most animals, including fish, do synthesize vitamin C, and do not need a dietary source. Every species have a different metabolism, and what needs to be provided by the diet for one species is no sign of what the essentail dietary nutrients are for another. "Where do you think fish get their vitamin C" therefore is a rhetorical question that makes no sense.

Sailors may have found it more convenient to pack cabbages and oranges, but Russian soldiers are still taught to eat arctic fox if stranded in Siberia to fight scurvy.

And I am a vegan, by the way.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

LOL. Well if your point was that animals are a good source of Vitamin C, just look at the list of plants are good sources of Vitamin C.

Vitamin C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sailors didn't take animals aboard to fight scurvy. They took plants like lemons and oranges.

Yup, and those who took them on arctic expeditions died of scurvy while those who ate their meat didn't.

Look here.

[SmartAlx]

Anyway, getting back on topic, as far as the question of making your diet one of vegans or meat eaters, I would guess that Vegans are probably a bit more tender, but Meat Eaters would probably be juicier. I think I would personally prefer to eat Vegans.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Gabo

It is quite possible to eat very unhealthy foods on a vegan diet, for example, or to eat mainly healthy foods while still eating animals. So rather than placing labels on how good diets are based on their restrictions, we should instead ask ourselves what exactly we eat and if the things we eat are healthy.

Agreed. I think it's quite possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, a mostly animal based diet, and anything in between, and have personally followed eating styles across the spectrum, changing the composition as it feels like it's time to do so. Overall, I just try to make sure there are plenty of veggies, some berries, not much sugar, and few if any heavily processed foods. As Pollan says, "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much."

Also, I'm a fan of regular blood testing to see how one's food intake and exercise affects health markers and if any deficiencies pop up. People into caloric restriction particularly recommend it, but I think it can benefit anyone.

Tests and Biomarkers | CRS

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Ironically, had they eaten mostly fish, they would have avoided scurvy.

I think one thing both camps can agree on is that one should reduce sugar, refined flour and transfats and try to eat, as Pollan put it so nicely: Food.
Which means non-processed natural stuff. Something that was grown or, in the case of meat-eaters, raised. Sometimes I think the rest is details and should be guided by personal taste.

What do you imagine that they ate on those ships? Pizza? Their diet was fish, fish with fish and fish with more fish. They cured the scurvy that would kill most of the crew by bringing along limes since they had vitamin C in them and so they were called Limeys. An orange has 60 mg of vitamin C. Three ounces of baked haddock has 1 mg of vitamin C. The other fish in the Nutrition Almanac have none.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Three ounces of baked haddock has 1 mg of vitamin C. The other fish in the Nutrition Almanac have none.

Even though meat only contains a small amount, it's enough to prevent scurvy by helping the body bypass the need for it, as explained in the article Agnostic posted a link to:

Why meat prevents scurvy « Plant Poisons and Rotten Stuff – The Blog

"In fact, meat not only prevents scurvy because it contains tiny quantities of vitamin C, it prevents it because it bypasses the need for vitamin C.

Vitamin C is required to form collagen in the body, and it does this – despite being described everywhere as an antioxidant – by oxidation. Vitamin C’s role in collagen formation is to transfer a hydroxyl group to the amino acids lysine and proline. Meat, however, already contains appreciable quantities of hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline, bypassing some of the requirement for vitamin C. In other words, your vitamin C requirement is dependent upon how much meat you do not eat."

This is probably why all-meat eaters like Eskimos and the African Masai didn't suffer from scurvy.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by liamona

Even though meat only contains a small amount, it's enough to prevent scurvy by helping the body bypass the need for it, as explained in the article Agnostic posted a link to:

Why meat prevents scurvy « Plant Poisons and Rotten Stuff – The Blog

"In fact, meat not only prevents scurvy because it contains tiny quantities of vitamin C, it prevents it because it bypasses the need for vitamin C.

Vitamin C is required to form collagen in the body, and it does this – despite being described everywhere as an antioxidant – by oxidation. Vitamin C’s role in collagen formation is to transfer a hydroxyl group to the amino acids lysine and proline. Meat, however, already contains appreciable quantities of hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline, bypassing some of the requirement for vitamin C. In other words, your vitamin C requirement is dependent upon how much meat you do not eat."

This is probably why all-meat eaters like Eskimos and the African Masai didn't suffer from scurvy.

The above article says that biscuits caused scurvy in 2 people. Their scurvy was cured by giving up biscuits!?

If the best diet was raw meat, as article says, who wants to eat meat raw? You can get 5' tapeworms from eating raw meat. Who eats raw calves' brains? Do you?

That is an original idea. Check yourself into a mental institution to prove that your diet works. So I guess that this stuff that is in meat, is not in fish. The people on the ships ate lots of fishy fish.

I would rather get plenty of vitamin C eating natural sweets (fruit) that even babies like to eat, then bypass it with raw organ meats. See if a baby likes eating that.

But if I am ever stuck in the Arctic, then I will remember the advice in this article. I do know that living in the freezing cold, like the Eskimos do is not a fun life. People love the summers and go to the beach to lie mostly naked in the sun.

There are even nude beaches. I bet there are no nude beaches where the eskimos live. Rich people in cold areas will go to a warm beach for a vacation. In the summer, there are not many people going to the Arctic for a nice vacation.

If you were in the Russian army and you were bad, they would send you to Siberia where it is very cold. If you fall asleep in a warm area outside, you will be fine. Fall asleep outside in a cold area and you will die.

Natural Hygiene says that people are the healthiest living in the tropical areas. Eskimos struggle to stay alive whereas the saying in the Bahamas is Don't worry, be happy! There are many health drinks that are selling like crazy. They are not made from meat. They are made of fruits like acai, aronia, mangosteen, noni, goji and camu camu fruit with 40 times the vitamin C of oranges.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I would rather get plenty of vitamin C eating natural sweets (fruit) that even babies like to eat, then bypass it with raw organ meats. See if a baby likes eating that.

Jalapeños are my favorite source of vitamin C. In addition to having more of the nutrient than oranges, they're also easier to grow on our balcony

Though she's a vegetarian now, my girlfriend apparently loved rare steak as a little kid. Babies, of course, should stick with their mother's milk, though organ meat is excellent for later on. Liver was always my favorite, followed by sardines and oysters, and though this would likely sound crazy to most people, I used to make energy drinks with raw steak.

Both I and one of my good friends who was a nutrition major and is now in med school (a rather alternatively oriented version) would be happy to be in a study where high quality raw meat is provided free of charge, including plenty of organ meat, marrow, fat, and muscle. Raw dairy would be a welcome addition.

I do have a copy of my blood results from when I was on a strictly raw animal and vegetable diet for several months, and the numbers surprised the health staff (cholesterol, for one, was unusually good, while eating 12-18 raw eggs per day), so I think a close study would be interesting (and yummy).

[James81]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

If you do not get enough vitamin D, you can get rickets and increase chances of cancer and other problems. I could go on and on and on but you get the idea. If a person cares about their health, they should learn the important things in nutrition. Note that the concept of simple and complex carbohydrates is complex but there is no necessity to health to address this. The truth is that plant foods (like vegetables) contain both.

What plant sources exactly contain Vitamin D?



Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet: Vitamin D

Not that it's important, because most people can get their vitamin D simply from exposure to sunlight.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by James81

What plant sources exactly contain Vitamin D?

That's a good chart you linked to, illustrating the point that none of them do.

Not that it's important, because most people can get their vitamin D simply from exposure to sunlight.

That's true, but it's strange that so many outdoors-y people who live in sunny areas still have a vitamin D deficiency. I shudder to think what low blood levels of vitamin D people living in northern climates probably have.

BTW, nutrition researcher Chris Masterjohn wrote a pretty comprehensive article about vitamin D from food and sun:

From Seafood to Sunshine--A New Understanding of Vitamin D Safety

[liamona]

Originally Posted by openeyes

Though she's a vegetarian now, my girlfriend apparently loved rare steak as a little kid. Babies, of course, should stick with their mother's milk, though organ meat is excellent for later on.

That's for sure—and you can start giving four month old babies cooked egg yolks and cod liver oil. At six months you can introduce pureed meats. Babies sure love that!

Liver was always my favorite, followed by sardines and oysters, and though this would likely sound crazy to most people, I used to make energy drinks with raw steak.

Wow, you must be really healthy!

[James81]

Originally Posted by liamona

That's a good chart you linked to, illustrating the point that none of them do.

lol, that was exactly what I set out to accomplish with that chart. So thanks.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

The above article says that biscuits caused scurvy in 2 people. Their scurvy was cured by giving up biscuits!?

The more (refined) carbs you eat, the more vitamin C you need.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

If the best diet was raw meat, as article says, who wants to eat meat raw? You can get 5' tapeworms from eating raw meat. Who eats raw calves' brains? Do you?

There are millions of people who think that rare steak is delicious. And the brain used to be a delicacy before the BSE scare. Eating only the meat from an animal is a modern thing, really. You can get food poisoning from plant foods just as easily.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

That is an original idea. Check yourself into a mental institution to prove that your diet works. So I guess that this stuff that is in meat, is not in fish. The people on the ships ate lots of fishy fish.

Uhm ...

They put themselves under supervision by medical staff to prove that they wouldn't get scurvy (or anything else bad) on a meat diet. It resulted in at least two scientific papers on the topic.

And, I really hate to break it to you, but the main food on ships was stuff like dried peas and flour and what one could make of it. Refined carbs mostly.

The link I put here to the Eskimo-article would have shown you that cooked fish is very well sufficient for preventing scurvy.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I would rather get plenty of vitamin C eating natural sweets (fruit) that even babies like to eat, then bypass it with raw organ meats. See if a baby likes eating that.

Babies eat lots of different things, because they are not prejudiced in any way:

Babies do produce functional enzymes (pepsin and proteolytic enzymes) and digestive juices (hydrochloric acid in the stomach) that work on proteins and fats. This makes perfect sense since the milk from a healthy mother has 50-60 percent of its energy as fat, which is critical for growth, energy and development. In addition, the cholesterol in human milk supplies an infant with close to six times the amount most adults consume from food. In some cultures, a new mother is encouraged to eat six to ten eggs a day and almost ten ounces of chicken and pork for at least a month after birth. This fat-rich diet ensures her breast milk will contain adequate healthy fats.

Thus, a baby's earliest solid foods should be mostly animal foods since his digestive system, although immature, is better equipped to supply enzymes for digestion of fats and proteins rather than carbohydrates. This explains why current research is pointing to meat (including nutrient-dense organ meat) as being a nourishing early weaning food.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

But if I am ever stuck in the Arctic, then I will remember the advice in this article. I do know that living in the freezing cold, like the Eskimos do is not a fun life. People love the summers and go to the beach to lie mostly naked in the sun.
There are even nude beaches. I bet there are no nude beaches where the eskimos live. Rich people in cold areas will go to a warm beach for a vacation. In the summer, there are not many people going to the Arctic for a nice vacation.

If you were in the Russian army and you were bad, they would send you to Siberia where it is very cold. If you fall asleep in a warm area outside, you will be fine. Fall asleep outside in a cold area and you will die.

Natural Hygiene says that people are the healthiest living in the tropical areas. Eskimos struggle to stay alive whereas the saying in the Bahamas is Don't worry, be happy!

It's funny that Steffansson put it this way: ""When an Eskimo is well dressed, his two layers of fur clothing imprison the body heat so effectively that the air in actual contact with his skin is always at the temperature of a tropical summer."

You can learn more about the Inuit here.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

There are many health drinks that are selling like crazy. They are not made from meat. They are made of fruits like acai, aronia, mangosteen, noni, goji and camu camu fruit with 40 times the vitamin C of oranges.

You are perfectly right, there are not enough meat-juices.

[rocksupreme]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

...Japan was #1 (they are a country of health enthusiasts)...

I just wanted to point out briefly that this is a myth. Instant noodles, various candies, artificial sweeteners, and binge drinking are extremely common here - and not just with college students.

Japan has a legacy of longevity, but I predict that will decline as the older generations (that lived primarily on vegetables, fish, and rice) die off and are replaced by those younger, fatter, and more sedentary.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by rocksupreme

I just wanted to point out briefly that this is a myth. Instant noodles, various candies, artificial sweeteners, and binge drinking are extremely common here - and not just with college students.

Japan has a legacy of longevity, but I predict that will decline as the older generations (that lived primarily on vegetables, fish, and rice) die off and are replaced by those younger, fatter, and more sedentary.

This is true of single men and salary men during work hours, but Japanese women of all ages and all social classes are obsessed with their health. I wouldn't be surprised if they nudged their husbands in this direction after marriage, too.

[rocksupreme]

Originally Posted by aelle

This is true of single men and salary men during work hours, but Japanese women of all ages and all social classes are obsessed with their health. I wouldn't be surprised if they nudged their husbands in this direction after marriage, too.

No, they are not obsessed with health. They are obsessed with looking young and skinny, but that's not really the same thing.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by rocksupreme

No, they are not obsessed with health. They are obsessed with looking young and skinny, but that's not really the same thing.

That explains their fondness for laxatives! Yeah, real healthy.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by rocksupreme

No, they are not obsessed with health. They are obsessed with looking young and skinny, but that's not really the same thing.

Not my experience at all, but as I have no sources to back it up I'll trust you have ground for what you say