Can vegan-ism satisfy all of our bodies' biological needs?

[Curtis2011]

Is it possible? Are there any nutrients that our bodies need (or are better off with) that can only be found in animals or in animal products?

Just curious.

[VegasGypsy]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Is it possible? Are there any nutrients that our bodies need (or are better off with) that can only be found in animals or in animal products?

Just curious.

The only nutrient a vegetarian or vegan needs that can only be found in animal products...Vitamin B. So I take liquid Vitamin B12 that also contains all of the B vitamins. The manufacturer is "NOW', and I buy it at Sunflower Market in Las Vegas.

That is the ONLY nutrient you need to take if you're a veggie or vegan.

[scorpio1980]

A major one is DHA. Also EPA, CLA, B12, K2, among others. All are only found in animal foods, and of course supplementation. Although, to call a diet healthy, and sustainable one should not have to supplement to be healthy, we should also be able to thrive on local food all year round to be considered a healthy, sustainable diet.

[Beuford]

It would appear so but nothing we need is animal food exclusive. This has been debunked 1 million times on these forums

[Andrew Gubb]

I've been two years vegan and I've known people who have been happily vegan for more like 20. In these last two years my health has gone from "danger of death" to "usually OK". I won't say it's only the veganism, but I haven't got worse for it, for sure.

You should base your health choices on people's experience more than anything. Trying to make a sensible choice based on understanding of the body's workings is very, very tricky (and also subject to manipulation, as the info you get from the scientific world is heavily biased towards certain interests). However, if someone says they feel great on a certain diet and don't get sick, then you know for a fact that it could work for you.

For the record, neither me nor my closest vegan friend have ever taken B12 supplements, and we seem to be fine for it. I'm interested in trying to see if I feel remarkably better, though. I don't really expect I will.

[Aleksander Krstic]

I'm a veg so I can't say for sure, but I'm sure I don't need suplements.

[aelle]

I have been a vegan for close to 2 years, a vegetarian for a year before that. I feel fine and my bloodwork always comes back perfect. My doctor, who was a vegan-skeptic when I first told him about my diet, is now convinced it can be healthy. So as far as I'm concerned, yes, my body needs are completely met by my diet.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

For the record, neither me nor my closest vegan friend have ever taken B12 supplements, and we seem to be fine for it. I'm interested in trying to see if I feel remarkably better, though. I don't really expect I will.

The problem with this approach is that, as far as I understand, there is a 10 year buffer period (YMMV) during the time you stop your B12 intake and the time you see the first signs of deficiency. Also, a B12 deficiency (if treated late) can cause irreversible damage. I find the trial-and-error approach, that works fine for many other dietary choices, both too long and too risky here, so in doubt, I take my supplements.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by scorpio1980

A major one is DHA. Also EPA, CLA, B12, K2, among others. All are only found in animal foods, and of course supplementation. Although, to call a diet healthy, and sustainable one should not have to supplement to be healthy, we should also be able to thrive on local food all year round to be considered a healthy, sustainable diet.

DHA an EPA are both produced by algae and the human body. CLA isn't essential, in fact it might be dangerous. It has been shown to cause increases in cholesterol and could increase risk of diabetes.

B12 is made by a bacteria that would be on all our plants, if it weren't for our modern factory farming practices. Most meat producing animals have to be supplemented because they eat the same grain that we do.

K2 is also not essential, but can be found in certain fermented plant foods. Vitamin K is, but K1 is found in abundance in green vegetables.

A plant based diet doesn't need to be supplemented to be healthy. In fact it's more likely to be healthy than a diet including large portions of meat.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

B12 is made by a bacteria that would be on all our plants, if it weren't for our modern factory farming practices. Most meat producing animals have to be supplemented because they eat the same grain that we do.

Does this mean that eating organic from time to time is enough to be OK?

[Joeschmoe]

I think the answer to that is that we don't really know. It's not been studied, because so little of the country/world goes without getting it supplemented through animal products. I think that most people are probably fine, but it's not something that you should mess around with. Either get blood tests or supplement to be safe.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by scorpio1980

A major one is DHA. Also EPA, CLA, B12, K2, among others. All are only found in animal foods, and of course supplementation.

There's also vitamin A, and D3, for those who live in areas like the Scandinavian countries that don't get enough sun during the winter months ("Vitamin D Winter" geographic areas north of the 37 degree latitude).

Of course many people are able to efficiently make the conversions of certain nutrients, like beta-carotene to vitamin A, and alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA, and these tend to be the ones who are successful healthy veg*ns.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Does this mean that eating organic from time to time is enough to be OK?

No. The B12 would need to come come from dirt (read:manure) sticking to the fruits and veggies. B12 deficiency is the major deficiency of a vegan diet. I would agree that if you go that route and can't be convinced otherwise to take a supplement of some sort. Better safe than sick.

[Andrew Gubb]

^See this is why I haven't prescribed to the B12 theory until now.

People who hate to see other people being compassionate towards animals use it to discourage you. It feels most likely that it's a complete fabrication for their purposes.

I'm not interested in torturing and killing animals to live.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

^See this is why I haven't prescribed to the B12 theory until now.

People who hate to see other people being compassionate towards animals use it to discourage you. It feels most likely that it's a complete fabrication for their purposes.

I'm not interested in torturing and killing animals to live.

I don't hate to see people being compassionate towards animals. (, seriously?) I am just worried to see people hurting themselves.

Here's a pro-vegetarian paper from the AJCN in May 09 reporting B12 malnutrition in vegetarians and especially vegans worldwide.

More here, here, and here, through just a quick pubmed search. I suspect I won't be able to convince you of eating organic, humanely raised meat from a local source, but I hope that at least I can help you by convincing you to take a necessary (or at worst unharmful) supplement. Seems to me like you have nothing to lose by taking it and will probably lose your health in the long run if you don't. Stick to your moral guns if you have to, but don't gamble with your health because of it. This could be the only body you'll ever get.

- an ex-vegan.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I'm not interested in torturing and killing animals to live.

You don't have to do any sort of thing. The supplement is cheap, and recommended by most reputable veg*n health sites.

[Andrew Gubb]

agnostic,

I'm sorry, maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Do you only ever eat humanely grown meat (naturally never eating meat in a restaurant) and have you made 100% sure that what you do eat is humane? Have you been down to the ranch to see?

And why don't you take supplements instead?

I'm interested in this B12 thing, but I still see it as being absurdly convenient for the meat industry. I'll research it more. Thanks for challenging me, anyway

[Andrew Brunelle]

If you are a vegan, it would be wise to supplement B-12 and maybe even a B-complex vitamin. Otherwise, besides DHA and EPA, all your dietary needs can be met, but I personally believe that if you eat just a little meat each week, all your needs will be taken care of. No dairy, just a small piece of meat every now and then and you won't have to supplement.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

agnostic,

I'm sorry, maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Do you only ever eat humanely grown meat (naturally never eating meat in a restaurant) and have you made 100% sure that what you do eat is humane? Have you been down to the ranch to see?

And why don't you take supplements instead?

I'm interested in this B12 thing, but I still see it as being absurdly convenient for the meat industry. I'll research it more. Thanks for challenging me, anyway

Hi Andrew,
I eat mostly grass-fed beef from a local farm where I can see the cows. I've checked this personally. So my cows don't eat away anyone's grains and thus don't get sick because of it. I do eat out from time to time, then I have no control over the food, but this is rare, so I guess over 90% of the meat I eat is humane. I don't take supplements because I believe meat to be healthy food and thus see no need to avoid it. I eat that kind of meat for health-reasons, actually. But as far as I understand it I also help the environment by basically eating solar-powered grass (indirectly) instead of fossil-fuel-powered grains as my main calorie supply.

I'd say vitamins are more convenient for the vegetable and fruit industry. People tend to like eating their meat and fat and avoid their vegetables. They are led away from animal products and towards plants, even though year-long studies on even meat-only diets show no ill effects.
I think that "This is only good for the such-and-such-industry"-arguments rarely add to the substance of a discussion, as you can do this for anything. There's an organic produce industry, a meat industry, a grain industry, a vegetable oil industry, a dairy industry etc. They all want money and bend the truth to their benefit. I found that in areas of importance like diet there's no way around primary sources. And even scientists are only people who love to confirm their own biases. So it goes.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by aelle

I have been a vegan for close to 2 years, a vegetarian for a year before that. I feel fine and my blood work always comes back perfect.

The problem with this approach is that, as far as I understand, there is a 10 year buffer period (YMMV) during the time you stop your B12 intake and the time you see the first signs of deficiency. I take my supplements.

You are right but the thing about a buffer zone is vague. Do you know what it really means? It is similar to saying that one house is expensive and one is cheap. How much is cheap? $25,000 or $150,000?

The body destroys excess vitamin D that you get from food or supplements. Why? It is the most toxic vitamin. If you take 100 days worth of vitamin D, forget about it. That is an Italian saying that can mean different things. In this one it means it will end all problems. You will die from liver failure from taking 100 days worth of vitamin D.

Vitamin B-12 is the opposite. You can take 100 years, not days but 100 years of vitamin B-12 with no problem. The RDA of magnesium is 350 mg. That is how much you should get every day. That much B-12 (350 mg) will last more than a day. It will give you the B-12 that you need over 20 years.

As it is explained by Johnny Depp, who plays Donnie Brasco in the movie "Donnie Brasco"
"Forget about it" is like, if you agree with someone, you know, like "Raquel Welch is one great piece of ass, forget about it." But then, if you disagree, like "A Lincoln is better than a Cadillac? Forget about it!" you know? But then, it's also like if something's the greatest thing in the world, like minga those peppers, "forget about it." But it's also like saying "Go to hell!" too. Like, you know, like "Hey Paulie, you got a one inch pecker!" and Paulie says "Forget about it!" And then, sometimes it just means forget about it.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by scorpio1980

A major one is DHA. Also EPA, CLA, B12, K2, among others. All are only found in animal foods, and of course supplementation. Although, to call a diet healthy, and sustainable one should not have to supplement to be healthy, we should also be able to thrive on local food all year round to be considered a healthy, sustainable diet.

The highest source of CLA is kangaroo meat!

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Is it possible? Are there any nutrients that our bodies need (or are better off with) that can only be found in animals or in animal products?

Just curious.

One thing that was not mentioned can be obtained from plant foods but only if you try to use ones that are not common plant foods. Many meat eaters have a problem also. President George Bush was not a vegetarian but he took omega-3 supplements. People tend to get too much omega-6 and not enough omega-3.

Omega-3 is important to lubricate your brain (so you do not get depressed), lubricate skin and lubricate arteries so you do not get heart attacks and strokes. The best source is certain fish. Good plant sources are chia seeds and flaxseeds.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Hi Andrew,
I eat mostly grass-fed beef from a local farm where I can see the cows. I've checked this personally. So my cows don't eat away anyone's grains and thus don't get sick because of it. I do eat out from time to time, then I have no control over the food, but this is rare, so I guess over 90% of the meat I eat is humane. I don't take supplements because I believe meat to be healthy food and thus see no need to avoid it. I eat that kind of meat for health-reasons, actually. But as far as I understand it I also help the environment by basically eating solar-powered grass (indirectly) instead of fossil-fuel-powered grains as my main calorie supply.

Fine, but personally I wouldn't accept that as morally OK.

Actually I don't think raising and killing animals for meat in the best conditions is OK if we have the choice not to.

We should agree to disagree on this one, I suppose.

I'd say vitamins are more convenient for the vegetable and fruit industry. People tend to like eating their meat and fat and avoid their vegetables. They are led away from animal products and towards plants, even though year-long studies on even meat-only diets show no ill effects.
I think that "This is only good for the such-and-such-industry"-arguments rarely add to the substance of a discussion, as you can do this for anything.

Except that the meat industry is subsidised by government - vegetables are not. The meat industry is more powerful than the others. Meat eating is also a way to drive mass consumerism, something which was explicitly decided upon as a goal for society. It's more wasteful as the meat is fed on and wastes otherwise useful food. Remember the "where do you get your protein" argument? Why are so many people in society scared of giving up meat, but seem to be OK with the Atkin's diet?

I found that in areas of importance like diet there's no way around primary sources. And even scientists are only people who love to confirm their own biases. So it goes.

Scientists are also far more open to manipulation than they'd like to believe. The right strings pulled and a certain paper doesn't get published - whoops!

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I'm interested in this B12 thing, but I still see it as being absurdly convenient for the meat industry.

I don't understand this. You've mentionned this sentiment several times already and I really don't understand what you're getting at. B12 supplements are vegan (well, it depends on the adjuvants, but the active ingredients are vegan). The vitamin is grown in labs by bacteria on agar substates, not harvested from cows' entrails. Vegan groups like the vegan society do encourage vegans to supplement, because sick vegans would be awfully inconvenient to the promotion of the movement. I don't see what benefits the meat industry in that.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

You are right but the thing about a buffer zone is vague. Do you know what it really means? It is similar to saying that one house is expensive and one is cheap. How much is cheap? $25,000 or $150,000?

Yes, a buffer period is a vague term, meaning both that it will delay consequences and that the delay period is uncertain. I thought everyone on the internet knew the acronym for Your Mileage May Vary, but evidently not

Originally Posted by ginkgo

The body destroys excess vitamin D that you get from food or supplements. Why? It is the most toxic vitamin. If you take 100 days worth of vitamin D, forget about it. That is an Italian saying that can mean different things. In this one it means it will end all problems. You will die from liver failure from taking 100 days worth of vitamin D.

Vitamin B-12 is the opposite. You can take 100 years, not days but 100 years of vitamin B-12 with no problem. The RDA of magnesium is 350 mg. That is how much you should get every day. That much B-12 (350 mg) will last more than a day. It will give you the B-12 that you need over 20 years.

This is pretty random. Some micronutrients are fat soluble: Vitamins D, A, E, K. Which means that they will be stocked in our body fat and that, yes, you can overdose on them. Others, like vitamin C and the B group, are water soluble, which means that any excess will be evacuated through urine.

Vitamin B12 is particular in that it is water soluble but stocked in the liver. However, unlike what you suggest, the liver will not just process any quantity: the more you take at once, the more you will pee out. This is why even people with chronic absorption deficiency have to get regular B12 shots, not just one for the next 20 years.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Fine, but personally I wouldn't accept that as morally OK.

Actually I don't think raising and killing animals for meat in the best conditions is OK if we have the choice not to.

We should agree to disagree on this one, I suppose.

Yes, we seem to have different opinions on this. And moral arguments tend to get heated and personal. Ironically, the topic of morality brings out the worst in people. It's probably best to leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Except that the meat industry is subsidised by government - vegetables are not. The meat industry is more powerful than the others.

As far as I know, over 90% of agricultural subsidies go to wheat, corn, soybeans, rice, and cotton. The government-recommended diet limits meat consumption and is basically grain-based. Corn is literally cheaper than dirt, which is the reason why we began feeding it to cows in the first place (who eat free grass usually, which is inedible to humans) .It makes them sick, but it makes them grow faster. But it's only "worth it" due to low corn prices. Growing crops at current prices is done at a loss if it weren't for subsidies. You can watch King Corn, a movie about corn production in the US for a good overview.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Meat eating is also a way to drive mass consumerism, something which was explicitly decided upon as a goal for society. It's more wasteful as the meat is fed on and wastes otherwise useful food. Remember the "where do you get your protein" argument? Why are so many people in society scared of giving up meat, but seem to be OK with the Atkin's diet?

Trust me, having been both vegan and low-carb, vegetarianism and even veganism, is much more acceptable that saying: I don't eat bread.

When I said I was vegan, many people said they wanted to make the switch, because they've heard that it's healthier. When I say that I eat low-carb, most people tell me that I will die of a heart-attack.

Low-carbers don't have a propaganda-machine like PETA to work for them, I guess.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Scientists are also far more open to manipulation than they'd like to believe. The right strings pulled and a certain paper doesn't get published - whoops!

Yes. That's why I started to read the studies themselves.

[JohnnyHatch]

The animals the meat-eaters eat (yes, I am a meat eater) the animals eat something that gives them Vitamin B, usually some type of plant etc. Vegetarian can eat these same plants.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatch

The animals the meat-eaters eat (yes, I am a meat eater) the animals eat something that gives them Vitamin B, usually some type of plant etc. Vegetarian can eat these same plants.

No... B12 is produced by bacteria that lives in the gut of animals (some can absorb it right away, others can't and get it from manure soiled grass). Not by plants.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by aelle

I don't understand this. You've mentionned this sentiment several times already and I really don't understand what you're getting at.

Having to take B12 once a week for the rest of your life is discouraging and seems to suggest that the vegan diet is unnatural and dangerous if done incorrectly. So I get the idea that the whole B12 thing is propaganda.

I also doubt a lot any sort of scientific theory concerning diet. Did you read that post about the arctic explorer who was healthy for 5 years on a pure meat diet? No vitamin C at all. How does science explain that?

I'd go one step further and ask science to explain sungazing and breatharianism. I've known an ex-breatharian myself, who not only lacked vitamin B12, he lacked all of the vitamins and food too, and he was better than fine. In fact, he had a satori experience.

[Andrew Gubb]

I've been researching a bit more and it seems spirulina IS a good source for B12. 3g contains enough for the day.

I also hear a theory that you stop making B12 naturally when you eat meat, and your body can start up again after you stop (but maybe not always).

It'd be nice to see a study of vegans that have gone twenty years without supplementation...

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Having to take B12 once a week for the rest of your life is discouraging and seems to suggest that the vegan diet is unnatural and dangerous if done incorrectly. So I get the idea that the whole B12 thing is propaganda.

Mmh... sounds a bit far-fetched to me, but I see your logic. That would not be much of an argument, though, because there is close to nothing natural about the diet of most of the Earth's population. Anyone who lives above the 45th parallel (most of Europe) has to get unnatural sources of vitamin D, anyone who lives away from coastlines has to get unnatural sources of iodin...

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I also doubt a lot any sort of scientific theory concerning diet. Did you read that post about the arctic explorer who was healthy for 5 years on a pure meat diet? No vitamin C at all. How does science explain that?
.../...

Funny how that was crossposted on another no-meat thread (here)! But most animals do synthesize their own Vit. C, polar animals in particular. No mystery here.