what about this argument against meat

[Beuford]

Just so you know I can't afford to pay $40 for a kg of organic cruelty free meat. Nor could I drive 100km to find a "local supplier", if you think organic meat has not nearly as much saturated fat as non organic.

I CAN afford to pay $3 a kg for fruit(neither organic or non-organic fruit have high levels of cholesterol or saturated fat), however. Or maybe 35 cents for a kg of potatoes.

Hmm which option should I chose?

[aggie]

well, that is part of the whole problem in the usa too....anything grain fed, free range, happy, not factory farmed, not over processed, organic, not full of perservatives, fillers, sweeteners, and in general healthy cost a small fortune....it is a problem whether you eat meat or not.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by agnostic

That commercial is really embarrassing. One could have checked the facts first and at least learned that saturated fat in the fridge is not liquid. I mean, how did they even make the spot? They must have used some sort of vegetable oil or use some synthetic stuff.

What's really strange is that the "saturated" fat in the fridge is liquid, but it then turns solid at room temperature in the drain. WTF?!

You just made me realize that what I wrote about that commercial doesn't make very much sense. I'm going to have to change it.

ETA:

Or not....I guess the handy "Edit" button under your posts goes away after a certain time?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Just so you know I can't afford to pay $40 for a kg of organic cruelty free meat. Nor could I drive 100km to find a "local supplier", if you think organic meat has not nearly as much saturated fat as non organic.

I CAN afford to pay $3 a kg for fruit(neither organic or non-organic fruit have high levels of cholesterol or saturated fat), however. Or maybe 35 cents for a kg of potatoes.

Hmm which option should I chose?

Isn't it sad that affordability gets in the way of eating what's good?

[aggie]

if it was affordable we would not have a screwed up health care system so badly in need of reform....oops, wrong thread

[Jaiysun4]

Originally Posted by liamona

Isn't it sad that affordability gets in the way of eating what's good?

...Welcome....to the REAL world!

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Just so you know I can't afford to pay $40 for a kg of organic cruelty free meat. Nor could I drive 100km to find a "local supplier", if you think organic meat has not nearly as much saturated fat as non organic.

I CAN afford to pay $3 a kg for fruit(neither organic or non-organic fruit have high levels of cholesterol or saturated fat), however. Or maybe 35 cents for a kg of potatoes.

Hmm which option should I chose?

Eggs and ground meat are cheap choices among the organic animal foods. Saturated fat is still the same (and it isn't bad for you), it's just a difference in the Polyunsaturates- more Omega 3s.

Living off organic ground meat and eggs from a supermarket is actually a pretty cheap way to get quality calories.

[scorpio1980]

I'm looking at my last receipt from whole foods, spinich 5.59lb,
gala apples 4.99lb, grapes 8.99lb, organic free range chicken breast 4.99lb,
grass fed ground beef 5.99lb, oraganic free range eggs 2.99dozen. I could go on, but on the whole I could eat animal products for the same price if not cheaper than the plant products. I even find it roughly the same at a farmers market. I eat from both groups so no worries to me about which are healthy, because both groups are natural food, and perfectly healthy. Saturated fat isn't unhealthy in of itself, we need it for all sorts of bodily regulation. Why not bring up sugar as the unhealthy culprit it is?

[Beuford]

Where I live non organic meat costs twice as much as organic plants.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Where I live non organic meat costs twice as much as organic plants.

Per pound, but probably not per calorie. You only need about three pounds (750g) of meat a day if all you ever eat is meat.

Where I live (Germany), you get 500g of non-organic ground meat for 1.95€, the organic version costs 2.79€ for 400g. That's usually around 1300 calories.

10 organic eggs cost 2.59€, that makes about 900 calories.

Organic vegetables around 2€ per 750g, and they usually have around 30 calories per 100g, so you get about 200 calories worth of food.
Fruit is higher in calories, you can get 1 kg of organic apples for 2€, but that still leaves you at 600 calories for eating 1kg of apples.
Organic blueberries cost 1.99€ per 200g and that's under 90 calories.

The 100% organic-meat only diet costs under 200€ a month for all the calories you need. And that includes a new filter for your tap water every month.

Organic fruits and vegetables will cost considerably more per calorie and as a fruits n veggies only guy, you need to go through a lot of food for your calories.

[Beuford]

What about nutritional value? What about wholegrains, or legumes? Nuts and seeds? What about fiber?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Per pound, but probably not per calorie. You only need about three pounds (750g) of meat a day if all you ever eat is meat.

That's a good point!

Where I live (Germany), you get 500g of non-organic ground meat for 1.95€, the organic version costs 2.79€ for 400g. That's usually around 1300 calories.

10 organic eggs cost 2.59€, that makes about 900 calories.

Organic vegetables around 2€ per 750g, and they usually have around 30 calories per 100g, so you get about 200 calories worth of food.

Huh, that doesn't seem as expensive as I'd thought. (right now the exchange rate is .68€ to one Federal Reserve Note—I wonder if I'm doing the conversion right?).

Organic fruits and vegetables will cost considerably more per calorie and as a fruits n veggies only guy, you need to go through a lot of food for your calories.

There's also the satiety factor. I feel really, really full on a meat and fat diet so I eat very little.

OTOH, when I increase the amount of carbs in my diet (even so-called "good" carbs like fruit and vegetables), I feel MORE hungry, so I end up eating more calories and yet feeling less satisfied with the increased amount of food.

Then I end up gaining weight.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

What about nutritional value? What about wholegrains, or legumes? Nuts and seeds? What about fiber?

Meat is all you need in terms of nutrition. You need neither wholegrains nor legumes nor nuts nor seeds. Fiber is nondigestible carbohydrate. Why would you need that? Your digestion will be fine on meat only as many digestive diseases are actually successfully treated with a meat-based diet. Certainly no gases from any legumes.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by liamona

Huh, that doesn't seem as expensive as I'd thought. (right now the exchange rate is .68€ to one Federal Reserve Note—I wonder if I'm doing the conversion right?).

The exchange rate is right. Which food do you mean specifically?

All prices are from German discount markets.

Originally Posted by liamona

OTOH, when I increase the amount of carbs in my diet (even so-called "good" carbs like fruit and vegetables), I feel MORE hungry, so I end up eating more calories and yet feeling less satisfied with the increased amount of food.

Carbs do that.
Tom Naughton just put up a post on this.

[cinnabar]

Originally Posted by liamona

Thanks for the link! It reminded me to order "Fat Head" on Netflix. Unfortunately, it says that there's a long wait to get the movie!

I just finished it last night! Good show, good show. I'll get it in the mail pronto, so you can watch it, too!

[liamona]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Fiber is nondigestible carbohydrate. Why would you need that? Your digestion will be fine on meat only as many digestive diseases are actually successfully treated with a meat-based diet.

I had a hard time believing this until I combined taking a high bacterial count probiotic with an all meat and fat diet for a few days, and then added in a few veggies. Despite having zero fiber intake, it didn't affect my digestion at all. I wish I had discovered this years ago.

Konstantin Monastyrsky, the author of Fiber Menace has a great explanation of why fiber is actually bad for you (which he found out after being on a high fiber vegetarian diet):

Gut Sense: Restoring Intestinal Flora

Certainly no gases from any legumes.

Amen to that!

[liamona]

Originally Posted by agnostic

The exchange rate is right. Which food do you mean specifically?

The eggs and meat, especially the organic meat. I think I messed up when I was trying to make the grams to ounces conversion (darn our stupid Imperial measurement system!).

As for the eggs, they're sold by the dozen here, so I tried to figure out how much the cost was per egg between dollars and euros. As you can see, math is not my forté!

[liamona]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

I just finished it last night! Good show, good show. I'll get it in the mail pronto, so you can watch it, too!

LOL. Well they obviously have more than one copy floating around, because I got mine this afternoon and just watched it.

Naughton did an excellent job! I'm glad he revealed that Morgan Spurlock has never released the details of his food log. I got a kick at the ending of the movie, when he was showing how he'd changed his diet after getting off junk food, because that's pretty much how I eat. I love frying grated cheese in coconut oil or butter too!

I highly recommend it for people who don't want to read serious books like Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories. It would be great for high school students to watch. Or the entire AMA or AHA or any other alphabet letter agency.

[liamona]

OTOH, when I increase the amount of carbs in my diet (even so-called "good" carbs like fruit and vegetables), I feel MORE hungry, so I end up eating more calories and yet feeling less satisfied with the increased amount of food.

Originally Posted by agnostic

Carbs do that.
Tom Naughton just put up a post on this.

Good one! Do you read the Hyperlipid blog? Peter just posted satirically about hunger and eating saturated fat:

"Anyhoo. Half a pound of doner meat [similar to Greek gyros] down and you are now just ravenous. You fight the hunger off for another 10 minutes, but you know you are on to a looser. You blow another £3.20 on a second portion. Sitting in Mothercare's car park, finishing your second kebab, you promise yourself that now you will just drive home and stop eating, and you actually turn on the ignition before the palmitic acid driven hunger breaks your will like a matchstick and you go back for a third portion. This time you don't leave the shop and wolf down your fourth portion, an extra large one, which gets you up to well over the two pounds of meat mark, and you need more. After that it's a race within the family to spent the week's food budget on Friday night doner kebabs. With five or six pounds of meat eaten you hopefully run out of money and the palmitic acid pusher mercilessly and mercifully kicks you out on the street, half a sheep in your stomach and ravenous from the palmitic acid flooding your brain. That hunger is going to go on for days and you already are aware that there is no money until the next giro comes through...


WHAT? You don't recognise the scenario? Well that must just be your ignorance of this study and this newspaper article summarising it."

Hyperlipid: Want some acid? Bad trip on palmitic...

[liamona]

This is an old study from the sixties that Peter posted about recently. It's illuminating because it was actually done on humans for longer than a year, and not on rats.

There were three groups of people with heart disease; two of them were told to limit their animal foods and fat intake, while at the same time one group increased their consumption of corn oil and the other olive oil.

Although the members of the corn oil group had dramatically lowered total cholesterol levels (they didn't measure LDL or HDL back then), by the end of the study 12 to 18 months later the control group which ate a normal high saturated fat diet had the most amount of people who remained free of heart attacks and other problems.

Another interesting thing is that one person from each of the corn and olive oil groups got diabetes during the trial, but the symptoms disappeared at the end of the study.

So I guess the moral is that a low-fat diet mixed with corn oil will lower your cholesterol, but you could still get diabetes or a heart attack for all your efforts.


Hyperlipid: Palmitic acid based food vs olive oil or corn oil supplements

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by liamona

This is an old study from the sixties that Peter posted about recently. It's illuminating because it was actually done on humans for longer than a year, and not on rats.

There were three groups of people with heart disease; two of them were told to limit their animal foods and fat intake, while at the same time one group increased their consumption of corn oil and the other olive oil.

Although the members of the corn oil group had dramatically lowered total cholesterol levels (they didn't measure LDL or HDL back then), by the end of the study 12 to 18 months later the control group which ate a normal high saturated fat diet had the most amount of people who remained free of heart attacks and other problems.

Another interesting thing is that one person from each of the corn and olive oil groups got diabetes during the trial, but the symptoms disappeared at the end of the study.

So I guess the moral is that a low-fat diet mixed with corn oil will lower your cholesterol, but you could still get diabetes or a heart attack for all your efforts.


Hyperlipid: Palmitic acid based food vs olive oil or corn oil supplements

Yeah, that's what's so sad and ironic about all of this. "Healthy" eating can make you sick.