vegan diet will make me ill?

[Beuford]

I find it hard to believe your cholesterol went up when you stopped consuming animal products.

[Andrew Gubb]

I disagree that the vegan diet is unhealthy - my body loves it - but I've also heard of stories like that.

Moral of the story? Everyone's different.

If you HAVE to eat meat, though, work out how you can do it as little as possible and by hurting the animals as little as possible. You'll want to get in contact with local farmers who treat their animals well. From what I understand it needen't cost more.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

I find it hard to believe your cholesterol went up when you stopped consuming animal products.

That's easy. He consumed more carbs and less protein and fat, thus raising his insulin levels and therefore his body's cholesterol production.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by coolbgdog

processed, cancer causing cooked meat

The only evidence for meat "causing" cancer is not causal at all. All we have is a weak correlation in epidemiological studies. That the food we evolved on causes cancer is a strange thought. But I'm willing to be confirmed wrong. I've seen a lot of statements in that regard, but nothing conclusive so far. If you have something, hit me.

[scotthegeek]

I was almost vegan except for bread which had eggs in it and some butter.
I hardly eat any nuts and seeds and the diet was very low in fat. I lost alot wieght very quickly and felt great. about a year later partly due to social pressure (your too thin its not healthy) I went back to eatting the old way and gain back all the wieght plus 30 bls part of the gain was also due to being laid off.

a couple a years later a had a gall bladder attact. I read that low fat diets and rapit wieght loss or gain can cause gall stone, I did all 3 and there is no way to know for sure put I think the way I went about the vegan diet cause the gall stones.

I think it wise to loss wieght slowly and to eat healthy fat and a healthy amount of fat in a diet

[scorpio1980]

Originally Posted by Beuford

I find it hard to believe your cholesterol went up when you stopped consuming animal products.

Just as agnostic pointed out. Insulin causes most health issues, not fat or animal protein. The less meat eaten usually will correlate to a higher carb diet, unless of course you down a ton of nuts.

[ginkgo]

Driving a car is also terrible for health and so people should never drive if they are going to text message.Things that are healthy can be done wrong and kill you or cripple you. A nutritarian diet by definition is health but a vegan diet can be either healthy or unhealthy. Eating bread and water only is a vegan diet.

How healthy something is or not depends on intelligence. Some people have bought gasoline additives to make a car run better and have drank them causing themselves to have horrible problems.

[nin64]

I think I can share my experience.
3 days ago...
Started raw food diet, and in the 2nd day I felt "ill"... it wasn't ill per se. It just that my nose make more mucus and it seem that my body sweating even more.
Probably because I ate some potato chips (hey, it's veg) and Colas (it's veg too) daily like some weeks ago (Can't help it. Life is just too confusing at time. Maybe I was doing my best at my level of consciousness...)
I didn't have headache or anything like that.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by agnostic

That's easy. He consumed more carbs and less protein and fat, thus raising his insulin levels and therefore his body's cholesterol production.

Now that you know this, why not fix the problem?

Add more nuts and legumes.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Now that you know this, why not fix the problem?

Add more nuts and legumes.

Or meat.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Or meat.

Sure if you want but I'm pretty sure nuts and legumes are healthier than meat and have less negative effects.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Sure if you want but I'm pretty sure nuts and legumes are healthier than meat and have less negative effects.

Why are you sure?

[Andrew Gubb]

^Research it! Meat contains antibiotics, hormones, not to mention the residual emotions and energy of the dead tortured animal, and all of that on top of the issue of whether meat would be OK for us if we didn't have such an insane industry.

"The China Study" (book you can find on amazon) details how meat has been shown to cause higher rates of cancer.

One argument I heard which makes sense is that the animal's flesh goes accumulating toxins over its lifetime, as some of them are hard to expel. These are stored most of all in the fat. That would be why I lost a large amount of weight after going vegan with no effort and no special desire to do so.

As a sidenote, this makes pork doubly bad as pigs are fed dead animals.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

^Research it! Meat contains antibiotics, hormones, not to mention the residual emotions and energy of the dead tortured animal, and all of that on top of the issue of whether meat would be OK for us if we didn't have such an insane industry.

The organic grass-fed meat I eat doesn't contain any of that stuff. I would also doubt that meat contains emotions, any hormones would be destroyed by the acid in my stomach when I eat the meat. But, I'm willing to learn: How do emotions end up in meat?

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

"The China Study" (book you can find on amazon) details how meat has been shown to cause higher rates of cancer.

Isn't the China-Study an epidemiological study? As such it can't show any causation. Only intervention studies can do that. But still, correlations are interesting, so I'll take a look, thanks. Where is the original study itself published?

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

One argument I heard which makes sense is that the animal's flesh goes accumulating toxins over its lifetime, as some of them are hard to expel. These are stored most of all in the fat. That would be why I lost a large amount of weight after going vegan with no effort and no special desire to do so.

I think that the idea that toxins, if they end up in the meat, could accumulate, makes sense. Do you have any studies on that? I'd like to know more about which toxins we are talking about and average concentrations. Is this factory-farmed meat or free-range? Which feed was used?

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

As a sidenote, this makes pork doubly bad as pigs are fed dead animals.

This is strange... The people in Okinawa eat lots of pork and cook with lard.

[Andrew Gubb]

The organic grass-fed meat I eat doesn't contain any of that stuff. I would also doubt that meat contains emotions, any hormones would be destroyed by the acid in my stomach when I eat the meat. But, I'm willing to learn: How do emotions end up in meat?

I think you're not interested in the answer I have for you: "energy". I don't believe emotions are just chemicals. I think the psychic energy remains on the meat.

Isn't the China-Study an epidemiological study? As such it can't show any causation. Only intervention studies can do that. But still, correlations are interesting, so I'll take a look, thanks. Where is the original study itself published?

I've only heard of the book. Steve recommends it. I haven't read the book but flipped through some of the youtube video series.

I think that the idea that toxins, if they end up in the meat, could accumulate, makes sense. Do you have any studies on that? I'd like to know more about which toxins we are talking about and average concentrations. Is this factory-farmed meat or free-range? Which feed was used?

I'm not a rigorous scientist! I don't really care!

I go by intuition more than anything. In scientific studies it's impossible to control everything. So they're usually only a little guide.

This is strange... The people in Okinawa eat lots of pork and cook with lard.

Maybe they don't feed their pork meat?

But they eat fish too right? Fish accumulate toxins in the same way. (In fact most fish are over the legal limit for mercury nowadays if I remember correctly).

All I can say is... maybe these Okinawans don't have any karma

[Beuford]

There are a lot of reasons why meat isn't as healthy as nuts or legumes. Next thing you are going to tell me cholesterol and saturated fat are good for you. Nuts and legumes won't take the calcium from my bones because vegetable protein is not as acidic. After replacing my meat with nuts and legumes I've been more awake during the day and slept less, I've been in better moods and my skin has been healthier. My heart rate has dropped to healthier levels, about 65 compared to 75. No, I think you should prove to me why meat is healthier than nuts and legumes.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by agnostic

Isn't the China-Study an epidemiological study? As such it can't show any causation. Only intervention studies can do that. But still, correlations are interesting, so I'll take a look, thanks. Where is the original study itself published?

You can get the original study from a University library, but I've heard it's difficult. Conveniently, Dr. Campbell in his China "Study" book leaves out the original data, and instead tells you what his interpretation of the numbers are.

There's a few independent nutrition researchers and bloggers who took the time to read the original study, and their analysis is quite different than Dr. Campbell's.

I posted a few highlights from them, here's the link.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by liamona

You can get the original study from a University library, but I've heard it's difficult. Conveniently, Dr. Campbell in his China "Study" book leaves out the original data, and instead tells you what his interpretation of the numbers are.

There's a few independent nutrition researchers and bloggers who took the time to read the original study, and their analysis is quite different than Dr. Campbell's.

I posted a few highlights from them, here's the link.

Holy Sh...!

I must admit that I was a bit worried that, being a member of the PETA-affiliated "Physicians for Responsible Medicine", he'd be biased a little (which is normal). But if these comments are right, he claims in his book the exact opposite of what the study actually says. So much for responsible medicine, I guess.

Sigh, now I'll need to get my hands on that study somehow.

Thanks a lot!

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Beuford

There are a lot of reasons why meat isn't as healthy as nuts or legumes. Next thing you are going to tell me cholesterol and saturated fat are good for you. Nuts and legumes won't take the calcium from my bones because vegetable protein is not as acidic. After replacing my meat with nuts and legumes I've been more awake during the day and slept less, I've been in better moods and my skin has been healthier. My heart rate has dropped to healthier levels, about 65 compared to 75. No, I think you should prove to me why meat is healthier than nuts and legumes.

Well, I hate to say this, but there's actually a book of that title. I haven't read it though, but I've read the other book by the same autor and it's really good. At least, cholesterol and saturated fat are not bad. Here's a Science article on the topic.

Well, the results on the bone density are controversial and the latest results suggest that it's vegetarians, especially vegans, who have lower bone density, although even this is statistically insignificant. So at best, the jury is still out on that one.

But your results are intreaguing. So you did a test of switching from meat to legumes and nuts and these were the results? How long did it take for the results to show? Did you do any other changes at the same time?

I could make an argument for meat over nuts and legumes, but given your angry response, would you really listen?

Anyway, for anyone interested:

Meat is a better source of iron and B12 (and B-vitamins in general) just off the top of my head. Meat by itself offers a complete set of amino-acids (especially taurine, carnitine and carnosine) without the need for any special diet composition.
Also there are no antinutrients in meat to block nutrient absorption, something all vegetation has to stop animals from eating it. However, replacing other foods in your diet with nuts is a good thing. But I doubt they are better than meat for the reasons mentioned.

[James Reno]

Another thing to remember is that you should be drinking plenty of water to stave off your hunger when you are going raw. In addition this hydration will keep your immune system working well.

[Andrew Gubb]

^What? When I was raw I could hardly drink more than a litre, it made me feel sick. The raw food diet is full of MASSES of hydration from the friut and veg!

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Just try it and see. There are thousands of people who are healthy vegans. See if it works for you. If you start losing weight rapidly or getting sick, then stop.

I concur with Erin.

In relation to what you talk about, you might find this article by Matt Monarch, a long-term raw foodist, to be useful:

http://www.rawspirit.org/bloodsugar.html

What he covers is relevant to veganism (and health in general, really), even if he is a raw foodist.

A quote from the article:

People often tell me that they "have to" eat certain foods or in certain ways, because their blood sugars otherwise start to go haywire, they have wheat sensitivities, or they wouldn't be matching their body type. I feel that there are a lot of misconceptions in regards to all this.

[...]

If someone is, for example, thriving on two meals a day, and they are instead told to eat many meals to suit their body type, this can actually be detrimental for them. People cannot be grouped so crudely. Each person is unique and food needs will change based on lifestyle and personality. For example, an extreme amount of emotional anxiety speeds up metabolism, possibly creating a need for more nourishment/fuel. This is not due to "body type", but stress management. Others 'medicate' themselves with food all day long, justifying their habit with reasons of blood type or even astrological sign.

After you've read that, a good follow up is this other article by Matt Monarch, which goes into more detail about detoxification (the article starts under the heading, "The Missing Link on the 100% Raw Food Diet!, by Matt Monarch"):

http://www.rawspirit.org/bloodgas.html

Note: I share those articles because they seem to make sense for me and might be helpful to you, but I haven't tested what's covered in them, so I can't speak to how effective or accurate the info in them is. I'd encourage you to be proactive and take full responsibility when dealing with your health and diet (or anything, really), and to also consider any info in context.

One thing I think that's important to mention considering the articles I shared above: Matt makes a really good point that as you become "cleaner" on a cellular level, if you ever have to go to the hospital and they have to use ("toxic") medical drugs or chemicals for whatever reason, it could kill you (in one of these articles--I don't remember which--Matt quotes a section from one of his books--I think it's Raw Success--where he talks about this topic in more detail, and says that he actually has a medical necklace or bracelet that indicates that he refuses aid of drugs in case of an accident... or something like that--look to his article for the specific quote). I wouldn't freak out about that fact, but it's something to keep in mind when you consider the raw diet, or any material about the raw diet. Not many people address that point from what I know, and it does seem to be kind of important.

For me, health really requires a holistic approach that takes into account all life areas.

I also think a holistic approach to living is helpful and can help you out if you've been focused on nutrition for a while and not getting the results you want (e.g. if you're someone who's genuinely been trying everything to lose weight, but never seem to make any progress, you might need to make changes in another life area), and I think it's important to consider everything and, as I said earlier, really be proactive and take full responsibility. I think dabbling can be potentially dangerous (not that I'm saying you're dabbling, but I'm just saying). Again, no need for fear, just mindfulness and an intelligent, conscious approach when it comes to the subject of health and diet. Also, don't be an island. There's loads of help you can get from people, and when it comes to territory you've not yet explored (e.g. a new diet), I think help from others (i.e. successful, healthy people who are doing well in most of their various life areas) is pretty important, or at least, very helpful. Stand on the shoulders of giants. (Don't draw too much into that quote, though.)

[lifeforce]

Unhealth from a vegan diet comes when a person does not get enough protein.

Throughout the day, millions of cells die and reproduce. They need protein to grow, so when you dont get enough protein, the body starts feeding on itself to get proteins. Over time, the body breaks down and dies if it doesn´t get its daily protein needs covered. I know a woman who got down to 45 kilos bodyweight and almost died.

Protein, protein, protein. Google vegetable protein sources and eat that. You´ll be safe. With todays low quality vegitables, it really helps to take multivitamins. Nutrition content of vegitables are down with 70% compared to the 70´ties. Todays vegitables are often grown on stonewoll with sunlamps and automatic springwater watering.

[Scientific Living]

I actually involuntarily went all soy based food overnight. I was suffering from extreme illness at the time and it was discovered I had about 40 different food allergies. Within 24 hours of going vegan, I felt better than I had in months!!!! Then one day later, I crashed to to a GIGANTIC detox reaction from overgrowth of intestinal yeast dying off.

Many months later, my doctor has now recommended to me the raw living foods diet, and I am slowly implementing it.

I would encourage everyone to go slowly so you don't have a terrible reaction or so that you don't feel overwhelmed, or so you don't get tired of the diet right away and give up.