To all vegans/raw foodists..Read this

[amj]

This is actually for everyone. The vegan and raw foods diet sounds great. Eventually I want to follow it. However, one must be conscious that they are getting adequate vitamin intake. I came across a site saying that many vegan/raw foodists are deficient in vitamin B-12. I am going to buy B-12supplements asap.

*Deficiency in vitamin B-12 can lead to heart disease, and deterioration of the arteries, nerves, genetic defects, kidney failure, low blood volume, hypothyroid

*If a vegan or raw foods mother is already B-12 deficient during pregnancy the baby may be born with seriously low B-12 levels and develop signs of deficiency in as soon as two weeks

Symptoms of vitamin B-12 defiency

low energy
depression
numbness and tingling in hands and feet
nervousness
paranoia
hyperactive reflexes
impaired memory
behavioral changes
diarrhea
fever
frequent upper respiratory infections
impotence
infertility
sore tongue
enlargement of mucos membranes of the mouth, vagina and stomach
macrocytic anemia
low platelets
increased bleeding
low white blood cell count
*there are special neurological symptoms that can be almost irreversible if it becomes chronic

Foods with active vitamin B-12

Arame dulse, kelp, kombu and wakame have significant active B-12

Table 1: Selected food sources of vitamin B12 [5]Food Micrograms (μg)
per serving Percent
DV*
Mollusks, clam, mixed species, cooked, 3 ounces 84.1 1400
Liver, beef, braised, 1 slice 47.9 780
Fortified breakfast cereals, (100%) fortified), ¾ cup 6.0 100
Trout, rainbow, wild, cooked, 3 ounces 5.4 90
Salmon, sockeye, cooked, 3 ounces 4.9 80
Trout, rainbow, farmed, cooked, 3 ounces 4.2 50
Beef, top sirloin, lean, choice, broiled, 3 ounces 2.4 40
Fast Food, Cheeseburger, regular, double patty & bun, 1 sandwich 1.9 30
Fast Food, Taco, 1 large 1.6 25
Fortified breakfast cereals (25% fortified), ¾ cup 1.5 25
Yogurt, plain, skim, with 13 grams protein per cup, 1 cup 1.4 25
Haddock, cooked, 3 ounces 1.2 20
Clams, breaded & fried, ¾ cup 1.1 20
Tuna, white, canned in water, drained solids, 3 ounces 1.0 15
Milk, 1 cup 0.9 15
Pork, cured, ham, lean only, canned, roasted, 3 ounces 0.6 10
Egg, whole, hard boiled, 1 0.6 10
American pasteurized cheese food, 1 ounces 0.3 6
Chicken, breast, meat only, roasted, ½ breast 0.3 6

*Many feel that spirulina, klamath lake algae and all the sea vegetables have enough B-12. They do but they also contain analog B-12 which competes with the human active B-12.

Other factors that can cause B-12 deficiency

inadequate protein or calories, drugs, toxins, alcohol, pancreatic tumors, oral contraceptives, fungal infections, liver and kidney disease, tobacco smoking and B-6 or iron deficiency.

I hope everybody is getting enough vitamin B-12, especially vegans and raw foodists.
Shalom (peace)

[bluedragon]

B12 deficiency = OLD, classic anti-vegan argument. Everyone has heard it. Doctors who support the vegan diet have debunked it. Yet some still keep insisting on it. I don't know who is right. But I do know that there are probably as many experts saying you can get vitamin B12 as a vegan as there are experts who say you can't.

[Beuford]

It is really modern farmed plant food that you dont get B12 from. In the wild, you aren't going to wash your food carefully and cook it so the food will have more dirt on it and there would be bugs. Since our need for B12 is tiny, you'd probably accidentally get sufficient B12 if you went herbivorous in the wild. Though if I were, I'd intentionally eat some bugs but only as a really small part of my diet.

[Savage]

I've heard the arguments on both sides of this issue many times over. I've been vegan since 1997 and have never had any B-12 deficiency problems.

Last year I took a B-12 supplement (a fairly well-regarded one recommended by a nutritionist) for several weeks out of curiosity. I noticed no difference at all. I stopped taking it and still didn't notice any difference. I haven't bothered to supplement with B-12 since then. The only difference I could discern was that I was paying for more expensive urine.

You can still get a B-12 deficiency even if you're not vegan, so this problem isn't just a vegan one. It may have more to do with how well your body absorbs and utilizes B-12 than with what your intake is.

[ginkgo]

Many vegetarians and vegans have B-12 deficiencies, but so does a big portion of meat eaters. My mother ate lots of meat but the doctor would give her shot of B-12 in her buttocks.

So I think that supplementing B-12 is good to err on the side of caution. You do not have to worry about too much. The sub-lingual is the best.

Also it is the cheapest supplement. Many people take 500 mg of vitamin C daily. That is everyday. 500 mg of B-12 is enough to last you 100 years. So your title should be to all people that eat food.

[Rose of Cairo]

I'm getting so tired of the B12 propaganda.

Proportionally, vegans don't have more B12 deficiencies than meat eaters. It seems to be more an absorption than an intake problem. People tend to just have rotten guts nowadays.

It's true that the soil is poorer in B12 (and in anything else) than it once was, so plants contain less B12. It's also true that we now buy washed, bug free stuff at the supermarket instead of finding our food in nature where we used to eat it unwashed and with sometimes insects on it. So yeah, I can see how vegans could have a hard time getting their B12.

If you have B12 deficiencies or are scared of getting some, please by all means supplement it. Or alternatively, just take a trip outside in nature and gather berries from time to time. That is a very healthy type of exercise in fresh air anyway! If you're really hungry when you find the berries, chances are good that you'll mistakenly eat some tiny insects that were sitting on the berries. Since our B12 needs are minimal, swallowing two bugs a year should be enough to cover them.

I have decided that I won't supplement unless I get some symptoms. I find the B12 fear mongering quite silly.

[amj]

I wasn't trying to encourage anyone to change their lifestyle. I ran across some info and decided to let others know what I found out. For me, it made sense and made me want to get supplements. I may not take them all the time but I think they would still be good to have in case I need them.

[ginkgo]

I never had any B-12 deficiencies but figured that I might as well supplement it. Some vitamins are toxic so the body destroys any extra so your body will not store it.

A couple of months worth of vitamin D, taken at one time, will kill you-- death by liver failure. That is from supplements or foods. Sunlight causes your skin to create a pre-vitamin D that is not toxic.

Your body can store vitamin-B-12 for years. So you can take a supplement every once in a while.

[amj]

I haven't heard of anyone I know being vitamin B-12 deficient but then again, I have never even heard it mentioned from doctors. I don't even know if they regularly test people for deficiencies like that.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by amj

I haven't heard of anyone I know being vitamin B-12 deficient but then again, I have never even heard it mentioned from doctors. I don't even know if they regularly test people for deficiencies like that.

They only do it if requested. It is not that a shortage gives you a serious disease. There was one group of vegans that got tested and many of them had a deficiency including the leader who never had any symptoms of B-12 deficiency that he noticed. Now this group of 85% raw food eaters takes subliminal B-12 supplements.

A shortage can cause depression but they do not test depressed people for it since they could make a lot of money from a depressed person instead of curing it with a supplement costing a few dollars a year.

My friend is a vegan and he got the symptoms, but for many vegetarians and vegans, it just shortens their life since it increases homeosystine levels leading to hearrt attack and stroke. This also applies to omega-3, that comes from fish. An article says that this is the reason that vegetarians do not have a longer life span than meat-eaters.

Although deficiencies in the above also apply to meat eaters with the latter applying to people who do not eat much cold water fish. President Bush was not a vegetarian but took an omega-3 supplement.

President Bush also had Lyme disease. There is an epidemic of this in the NE U.S. that comes from bites of deer ticks. It is mostly among the richer people. They live in the rural areas where deers reside. It is hard to diagnose and is misdiagnosed a lot.

[amj]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

They only do it if requested. It is not that a shortage gives you a serious disease. There was one group of vegans that got tested and many of them had a deficiency including the leader who never had any symptoms of B-12 deficiency that he noticed. Now this group of 85% raw food eaters takes subliminal B-12 supplements.

A shortage can cause depression but they do not test depressed people for it since they could make a lot of money from a depressed person instead of curing it with a supplement costing a few dollars a year.

My friend is a vegan and he got the symptoms, but for many vegetarians and vegans, it just shortens their life since it increases homeosystine levels leading to hearrt attack and stroke. This also applies to omega-3, that comes from fish. An article says that this is the reason that vegetarians do not have a longer life span than meat-eaters.

Although deficiencies in the above also apply to meat eaters with the latter applying to people who do not eat much cold water fish. President Bush was not a vegetarian but took an omega-3 supplement.

President Bush also had Lyme disease. There is an epidemic of this in the NE U.S. that comes from bites of deer ticks. It is mostly among the richer people. They live in the rural areas where deers reside. It is hard to diagnose and is misdiagnosed a lot.

Interesting. From what I read, if a person does not have enough, very serious problems could occur. With pregnant women, it was said that if they were deficient, the baby could show deficiency within 2 weeks. Some even die. I can believe it. I think all people, especially raw foodists and vegans can benefit from taking the supplement from time to time. From what I understand, it doesn't have high levels of toxicity so people don't have to worry about side effects from taking too much.

[Beuford]

What I'll probably do when I finally become vegan is just take an occasional supplement and not be a clean freak especially with food.

[Herbivore]

Yea, OLD.
How many times do we have to refute this? Don't the newbe's realize that us veterans have read all that stuff?....and a lot more? And that's why we know better.

I've been a health enthusiast for 18 years. A year ago, I knew so much, that I knew to go 100% raw 811, and stopped ALL supplements - they through things off balance. B-12 is made from bacteria, and they are everywhere - even in the air we breathe).


My results(How I measure up against the list of symptoms):


low energy - a little better
depression - opposite - I've never been this happy
numbness and tingling in hands and feet - no
nervousness - I had this on cooked + heavy food
paranoia - no. Feeling of freedom
hyperactive reflexes - I've always had that. I see it as a good thing
impaired memory - opposite: I got craazy memory!
behavioral changes - YES! I have banished all bad moods, anger, etc
diarrhea - no
fever - I stopped my yearly sickness 5 years ago.
frequent upper respiratory infections - none
impotence - none in 41 years
infertility - ?
sore tongue - When I eat alot of pineapple
enlargement of mucos membranes of the mouth, vagina and stomach - no
macrocytic anemia - no
low platelets - I wouldn't know; I don't worry(thats a negative emotion)
increased bleeding - no

[amj]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

Yea, OLD.
How many times do we have to refute this? Don't the newbe's realize that us veterans have read all that stuff?....and a lot more? And that's why we know better.

I've been a health enthusiast for 18 years. A year ago, I knew so much, that I knew to go 100% raw 811, and stopped ALL supplements - they through things off balance. B-12 is made from bacteria, and they are everywhere - even in the air we breathe).


My results(How I measure up against the list of symptoms):


low energy - a little better
depression - opposite - I've never been this happy
numbness and tingling in hands and feet - no
nervousness - I had this on cooked + heavy food
paranoia - no. Feeling of freedom
hyperactive reflexes - I've always had that. I see it as a good thing
impaired memory - opposite: I got craazy memory!
behavioral changes - YES! I have banished all bad moods, anger, etc
diarrhea - no
fever - I stopped my yearly sickness 5 years ago.
frequent upper respiratory infections - none
impotence - none in 41 years
infertility - ?
sore tongue - When I eat alot of pineapple
enlargement of mucos membranes of the mouth, vagina and stomach - no
macrocytic anemia - no
low platelets - I wouldn't know; I don't worry(thats a negative emotion)
increased bleeding - no

You don't have to refute it. It's meant to help, not discourage anyone from pursuing their desired lifestyle. If you dislike the information provided, that's fine. I found it to be interesting and decided to relay that information to everyone because it was something I never knew.