The Vegetarian Myth

[Kasha]

I found this very interesting: Our Natural Life « ONL050 In Defense of Omnivores

It's a podcast featuring an interview with Lierre Keith, the author of "The Vegetarian Myth". It struck a chord within me as many of her experiences parallel my 10-year history with a diet 90% free of animal products (the 10% was either special dinners out, or visits with family).

If anyone is going to post negatively about the highly personal decision of many vegetarians choosing to thrive on a diet including meat, I only ask that you state how many years you have embraced the vegan lifestyle. It's been my experience and observation that the first 5-7 years have many benefits while the body uses up its reserves. After that point however is when most people start to feel the negative effects.

[Aleksander Krstic]

I don't think veg diet uses your body's reserves lol.

[Kasha]

Vegetarian diets lack in certain vitamins, minerals and protein. You body makes up for these by drawing on its reserves.

[Big C]

Vegetarian diets do lack some of the proteins that the body needs and can come from eating meat. But like everything its a case of anything in moderation.

[Beuford]

There is nothing you need from animal products that you can't get from plant products. Even B12, as that is a bacteria thing, not an animal thing.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by Big C

Vegetarian diets do lack some of the proteins that the body needs and can come from eating meat. But like everything its a case of anything in moderation.

Certain plants don't necessarily contain complete proteins. So you just eat more than 1 type of plant, and you will get complete proteins.

[aggie]

i was not a vegan, but a vegetarian for eleven years...and i was fine until the last 3 years when i went thru very mentally, emotionally and physically trying experience.

i am ashamed to say, i stopped one day at a grocery store, bought a rotissorie chicken and started to eat it in the car...the craving for protein at that time seemed to be overwhelming.

tried going back to minimal meat eating...could not tolerate it and my humane beliefs could not be compromised. so eventually went back but since have added some fish and seafood on occasion.

i feel a little like i failed...i take lots of supplements, some dairy as well.

i started working out a lot more and have more muscle mass now...don't know if that is a contributing factor.

time and money wise....just have not been able to develop a really advanced alternative eating lifestyle to date.

[Aleksander Krstic]

Originally Posted by aggie

i was not a vegan, but a vegetarian for eleven years...and i was fine until the last 3 years when i went thru very mentally, emotionally and physically trying experience.

i am ashamed to say, i stopped one day at a grocery store, bought a rotissorie chicken and started to eat it in the car...the craving for protein at that time seemed to be overwhelming.

tried going back to minimal meat eating...could not tolerate it and my humane beliefs could not be compromised. so eventually went back but since have added some fish and seafood on occasion.

i feel a little like i failed...i take lots of supplements, some dairy as well.

i started working out a lot more and have more muscle mass now...don't know if that is a contributing factor.

time and money wise....just have not been able to develop a really advanced alternative eating lifestyle to date.

I don't know how severe your state has been, but if I'm not wrong I could say that I was also through a severe medically bad state because of going vegetarian, and I went right through it. No big deal.

In my case it didn't even happen to be an illness but just a temporary thing, life trying to scare me. Which is not going to happen that easily.

[aggie]

i am very glad for you.

i hope my proverbial ship has turned, albeit slowly and i will eventually find myself back to where i was.

knowing someone has come thru it is encouraging.

[Aleksander Krstic]

Thank you and your welcome!

[Dimond]

It's rare that someone vegetarian or vegan is eating healthy. Most eat just as much junk. If they ate properly, they would be more healthy than anyone eating meat. Not eating animal products is not why they're unhealthy. It's sad when people buy into this.

[Aleksander Krstic]

I'm not eating junk food and I'm a vegeterian if you've meant me.

[agnostic]

You'd be hard-pressed to find any respectable anthropologist who doesn't tell you than man evolved into the animal that he is on heavy meat-consumption.
Meat is healthy food, raising it with grains makes it less than optimal, though, but you can choose what you buy.
The Vegetarian Myth is a great book. I'm an ex-vegan myself. I don't really remember how long, but not longer than 3 years, I guess. So I can't say that I had any big ill effects, but I must say that I started feeling better after adding in meat again. Lierre Keith knows what she's talking about. It's a must-read for everyone who considers (or is currently) going vegetarian or vegan. She makes a compelling case against the choice and has enough experience (20 years) to back it up.
I have a lot of respect for someone who is able to change such deep-seated beliefs. If she would only read "the Myth of Male Power", she'd probably change even more.

[KazeCraven]

I eat vegan...

except when there are respectable animal product sources that don't fund the life-long imprisonment and suffering of animals. If it doesn't say, I assume the worst.

[aggie]

no one could ever convince me to go back to full fledged meat eating....i became a vegetarian for all those years for health reasons...but primarily for the inhumane treatment of food animals.

i want to eventually come to the point where i no longer eat fish or seafood.

when i tried eating red meat again, i phyically could not tolerate it. i don't think anything that stays in your intestines for 72 hours works well for me.

and it is a myth that vegetarians are junk eaters.

it can work as diet and a lifestyle, one just needs to make a concentrated effort if it is what one truly wants to do.

[KtotheB]

I've been a total vegetarian for 18 years. I'm doing great; with absolutely no need or cravings for meat.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by KtotheB

I've been a total vegetarian for 18 years. I'm doing great; with absolutely no need or cravings for meat.

Well done! I've been a vegetarian for 4 days. I've been getting off it for a long time though, as it is not as easy when you still live at home and don't do the shopping or prepare the meals, and it can be a bit to ask. A piece of fruit feels a lot nicer than a piece of steak though.

[Aleksander Krstic]

1 year here.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by Kasha

Vegetarian diets lack in certain vitamins, minerals and protein. You body makes up for these by drawing on its reserves.

This is outright wrong. There is nothing made by animals that Humans require. All vitamins are made by plants and bacteria (vitamin D is made by humans and doesn't really fit the definition of a vitamin). All minerals are.. well minerals. Animals don't have fusion reactors in them, and cannot create minerals.

As for protein, that has been explained here so many times. It's really not worth responding to unless you know what "protein" a vegetarian diet is lacking in.

[gigij]

I eat a vegetarian diet (not vegan).

I have a twin who eats an omnivorous diet.

I have had many people comment that they don't believe we are twins as they think I look 5 - 10 years younger than her.

Coincidence - I dunno ...

[James81]

Using the word "Myth" in your titles sure is a fantastic marketing tool in personal development and health type products, isn't it?

As for vegetarians not getting proteins, I was under the impression that most of the protein in a vegatarian/vegan diet come from things like nuts?

According to the AMA, though, too much protein is bad for you anyway. If you pick up their guide to wellness and read on page 6, it says that your diet shouldn't contain more than 10-20% protein.

(BTW, I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan. I love meat too much to give it up entirely. But I don't bash vegetarians/vegans or try to tell them they are unhealthy for their lifestyle. That's just silly. I DO however, take issue with the "moral elitist" portion of that lifestyle simply because I think it's a tad hypocritical. But I digress.)

[aggie]

ouch...hope i don't come across as moral elitist.....i go only by what i feel is morally correct for me.

besides if someone is perfectly comfortable eating baby cow atrophied muscle meat because it has been taken away from its mom and kept in a crate that does not allow standing or turning...who am i to judge

[James81]

Originally Posted by aggie

besides if someone is perfectly comfortable eating baby cow atrophied muscle meat because it has been taken away from its mom and kept in a crate that does not allow standing or turning...who am i to judge

See, this is the kind of stuff that turns me off to vegetarianism and it's also the kind of stuff that people who eat meat DON'T want to hear. Not because they are burying their head in the sand or anything like that, but because it's so uppity and condescending. You could get your point across in much more effective ways than this, and perhaps draw more people to your cause if it didn't sound like you were using it as a platform to judge others. (you may not be judging others with that statement, but it comes across that way and, as such, is not an effective way to communicate in order to bring more people to your cause...which, if you truly think that that's what's happening, I would think you'd WANT to bring more people to vegetarianism to minimize those things)

It's also not factual for all cases. Some of us like to buy meat from local farmers who don't mistreat their animals. Some of us even still minimize our meat eating because we know it's not good for us to eat that much meat anyway. See what I'm saying? You choose worst possible case scenarios and tout them as if that's the way all cows are being treated in all the farms in all the world.

And when you do that, it immediately puts the other person on the defensive. First thing I thought when I read your post? Does she realize all the animals that get ground up by the plows? Does she even care about all the bugs that are killed to keep them from eating the vegetables she eats? Does she even realize that in some cases, animals are TRAPPED or SHOT to death because they get in to eat the crops?

I'm not trying to debate this with you. The point of my post is that if you truly believe that eating meat is a moral "sin" (for lack of a better word), then you would want to hone your communication in such a way so that you can have other people see your point of view.

Judgemental and condescending language does not help your cause. It only breeds discontentment and defensiveness.

[aggie]

i was actually intentionally overdoing it for i guess was a misplaced, poor attempt at sarcastic humor

i guess it is ok for people to say how much they love to eat meat regardless of where it comes from.

believe me, i have really, really given up trying to sway anyone my way. but my posting before my last comment implied an elitist morality simply because i stated I could not morally do it. that is a little unfair.

why is it people who give reasons for not eating meat are turned into some kind of fringe lunatic.

i really don't care what anyone eats but me

and obviously my stand up comedian stint is shot to hell

lighten up a little, please

[James81]

Originally Posted by aggie

i was actually intentionally overdoing it for i guess was a misplaced, poor attempt at sarcastic humor

i guess it is ok for people to say how much they love to eat meat regardless of where it comes from.

believe me, i have really, really given up trying to sway anyone my way. but my posting before my last comment implied an elitist morality simply because i stated I could not morally do it. that is a little unfair.

why is it people who give reasons for not eating meat are turned into some kind of fringe lunatic.

i really don't care what anyone eats but me

and obviously my stand up comedian stint is shot to hell

lighten up a little, please

ha ha, it's hard to tell sarcasm on the internet. I've heard people say the stuff you said and they were actually serious. lol So I tend to just take stuff seriously unless there's a bunch of smilies or a "j/k" thrown in somewhere.

But, as you can tell be how jumpy I was to reply to your post, what I talked about is a pretty sensitive issue. And it could mostly be worked out if people would just stop using it for a platform to criticize and judge other.

But anyway, sorry for not seeing the sarcasm.

[aggie]

i understand the point you are making...it is a sensative issue to discuss from both sides without provoking some defense mechanisms....i know at times i have to watch how i communicate these feelings....but this is a good place to unlearn those techniques developed on the "outside"

[lifeforce]

Originally Posted by James81

Using the word "Myth" in your titles sure is a fantastic marketing tool in personal development and health type products, isn't it?

As for vegetarians not getting proteins, I was under the impression that most of the protein in a vegatarian/vegan diet come from things like nuts?

According to the AMA, though, too much protein is bad for you anyway. If you pick up their guide to wellness and read on page 6, it says that your diet shouldn't contain more than 10-20% protein.

(BTW, I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan. I love meat too much to give it up entirely. But I don't bash vegetarians/vegans or try to tell them they are unhealthy for their lifestyle. That's just silly. I DO however, take issue with the "moral elitist" portion of that lifestyle simply because I think it's a tad hypocritical. But I digress.)

So many people have it backwards when it comes to the ratio of protein to carbohydrates in their diets. If you have two groups of people and have one group eat ONLY carbohydrates, those people would die within a year. The other group eating only protein/fat would do just fine.

If vegitarians and vegians get enough protein from quality sources like soy and peas, there is no problem with a vegian/vegitarian lifestyle. However, if the indevidual gets shuggar addicted on highcarb foods like some fruits, grains (and bread), potatoes, rice, corn and has a high ratio of carbohydrates, that way of eating will damage the health.

The carbohydrate consumption should for maximal health be limited in favor of fats and protein. The brain runs on shuggar. However, it runs on very low amounts of shuggar (carbs). So when you ingest too much (like 60-70% carbs), the organ in your body called pancreas will start to produce insuline. Insuline opens up the storage cells, wich are muscle cells and fat cells, and store the extra shuggar in the blood as glucose and fat. With carbs you get fatter. Also, when insuline lowers the blood shuggar, you get carb cravings and want to eat lots of carbs again. This produces a new insuline spike/fat storrage, and so it continues

Anyways, sorry for my broken english - hope this mini lesson helps

[bluedragon]

I don't know, it somehow feels wrong that so many people fail on a diet that is supposedly healthy. It shouldn't be that way, I mean, if the vegan diet is so extremely hard to fine-tune and get the right amount of each nutrient, maybe it really is un-natural. I know the Taoists also promote the idea of a balanced diet, and in their energetic view of all things, meat and animal products contain more yang energy while vegetarian food can also be yang (like chilli peppers, garlic etc), but less so, and it is necessary to obtain your yang energy through other practices like tai chi in order to be healthy as a vegan (or raw foodist). Maybe all vegetarians naturally have an inclination towards meditation, public speaking and other things that allow you to draw energy from outside and that's the only reason why they are able to thrive on a diet almost devoid of yang energy.

[James81]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I don't know, it somehow feels wrong that so many people fail on a diet that is supposedly healthy. It shouldn't be that way, I mean, if the vegan diet is so extremely hard to fine-tune and get the right amount of each nutrient, maybe it really is un-natural.

Eating healthy in general can be a difficult process to fine tune. Why? Because we are SLAMMED with images of unhealthy food at every corner...we're marketted to and conditioned to eat a certain way by what the media promotes through it's marketing. We revolve our lives around food and we are in such a state of abundance (at least in the modern world, and not in "third world" type countries) that it's really easy to just eat whatever crap is available and cheap.

I wouldn't call a vegetarian diet un-natural. I would call our way of life un-natural, but it's so prevalent that it's hard to shake our beliefs about food and restructure them to where we are eating healthy.

[scorpio1980]

My meat is wild or grass fed. Meat is healthy, and part of a balanced diet. Not all meat eaters are unhealthy. I for instance eat one big meal at the end of my day. I snack on nuts, and fruit during the day,and then my big meal consists of a large portion of veggies with a large portion of meat or fish. I eat probably 30% carbs maybe a little less. I have noticed a correlation with the amount of carbs one eats the fatter, paler, and unhealthy one gets. This notion that carbs is more important than protein or fat is crazy. We are not meant to spike our insulin levels all day, everyday.