I do not think I will get my kids vaccinated...

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by James81

It's helpful to realize (on both the subject of homeschooling AND vaccines, I might add), that correlation does not equal causation.

I can sit here and tell you that when more people wear shorts, the sale of ice cream cones to go up. There's a very strong correlation there.

But are the sales really going up because people are wearing shorts? No. The sales are going up because it's summer...and in the summer more people wear shorts.

Ahh, excellent, pulling out the old correlation does not equal causation argument. Then compare it to some completely irrelevant and obvious situation. I am convinced. No, why don't you share why correlation does not equal causation IN THIS CASE, not in the case of people wearing shorts and buying ice cream.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Ahh, excellent, pulling out the old correlation does not equal causation argument. Then compare it to some completely irrelevant and obvious situation. I am convinced. No, why don't you share why correlation does not equal causation IN THIS CASE, not in the case of people wearing shorts and buying ice cream.

I already did (in the case of homeschooling anyway, which was why I brought up correlation/causation).

I said:

Do you think the connection has to do with the actual schooling at home...or do you think the connection is that home schooled kids have parents who are actively involved in their lives?

[Beuford]

And do you think parents would be more involved in their lives after they decided to home school them? In your other example, I don't think people are more likely to eat icecream because they are wearing shorts, but I think parents will be more involved in their childs life if they home school them. Anyway, how can you relate this to vaccinations?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Beuford

And do you think parents would be more involved in their lives after they decided to home school them? In your other example, I don't think people are more likely to eat icecream because they are wearing shorts, but I think parents will be more involved in their childs life if they home school them. Anyway, how can you relate this to vaccinations?

I think the decision to homeschool comes from parents who are already attentive to their children. Someone who is willing to take the time and devotion to home school their children, is already the type of parent who is attentive enough to their child that, whether they actually go through with homeschooling or not, would still give the child enough love and attention that the child would not develop disorders that would make them shoot up a school. In other words, my analogy works because their is a correlation between homeschooled kids and "not shooting up a school." But the cause isn't home schooling. The cause is more attentive parents.

To relate this to vaccines (which wasn't my original intent, but I'll humor you), I'd say look at the correlation between vaccines and Asperger's. Most anti-vac stuff I've read talks about autism being caused by vaccines. But are vaccines the cause? Or have other things changed in our society to cause a spike in Asperger's?

[Beuford]

I'm not particularly in to the autism and vaccinations. I think it is possible and deserves research, but my main argument is that there are many other factors in the reduction of diseases and that it is just assumed it is all thanks to vaccinations.

[liamona]

Ian's Voice Home Page

Warning: the pictures are quite graphic.

For a shorter version of Ian's story, see:

AGE OF AUTISM: How Important is Hepatitis B Vaccination at Birth?

Here's an excerpt from the IansVoice.org site, from days 3~7 in Ian's life. He only lived for 44 days after receiving the vaccine.

Ian received his shot. By that evening his fatal allergic reaction had begun. Every doctor and nurse at St. Joe’s conveyed the very same message: Ian’s reaction could absolutely not be from the vaccine. “Vaccines cannot cause this.” “Mom, all babies get rashes and the vaccination cannot cause a rash of this nature.”

Now, if we would have been provided the Vaccine Information Sheet (VIS) dated 7/11/01 as law requires, we would have known that “serious allergic reaction (very rare)” to the vaccine is possible. Incredibly, during the short time between Ian’s birth and death, a new VIS for the hepatitis B vaccine was released on 7/18/07 for the first time in seven years that better clarifies that “Severe problems are extremely rare. Severe allergic reactions are believed to occur about once in 1.1 million doses. A vaccine, like any medicine, could cause a serious reaction. But the risk of a vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.”

Shouldn't the doctors and nurses at St. Joe's be aware that even the CDC's vaccine information sheet advises severe allergic reaction to the hepatitis B vaccine are possible? If they are not, then how can they know to consider the vaccine as a possible cause when there is a reaction? Is it really possible that that not one doctor or nurse who saw our son knew what is clearly indicated on the vaccine information sheet? My son proved to us that a reaction to the hepatitis B vaccine can happen. Since that time, we have learned that it happens more often than is reported.

The VIS indicates that if a child has an adverse reaction parents should, “Ask your doctor, nurse, or health department to report the reaction by filing a Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) form.” The VIS implies that it is the parent’s job to ask their healthcare provider to report the reaction. This may be due to the fact that it is common knowledge that where parents do not specifically push for the severe reactions to be reported, the reports are largely unmade. Shouldn’t it be automatic that medical professionals report adverse reactions? How is it otherwise possible that reporting from VAERS would even come close to representing accurate numbers? One of Ian's neonatologists at Children’s Hospital of Wisconsin did report Ian's case to VAERS. She also wanted to document Ian's life in a case study for the Journal of American Academy of Pediatrics. Children's Hospital prohibited her from doing this.

[NOTE: Even the parents of vaccine-injured Hannah Poling didn't know about VAERS as they revealed in the CNN press conference they gave back in March 2008. And they are medical professionals: her mother is a pediatric nurse, her father a neurologist.]

[JMonkey]

I can't swallow this pill...

I know my peers can be incredibly stupid on many occassions, sometimes even leading to their demise (perhaps an absence of a locus ceruleus).
I'd never sell them this short though. No one but a handful of people noticing anyone who receives a vaccination actually develops the signs of the disease they were being vaccinated against? Puts a whole new spin on the term "immunisation"

I also love how one person coined the term "cooties". Makes the whole debate sound like a dust up in the sandpit.

[James81]

Originally Posted by JMonkey

No one but a handful of people noticing anyone who receives a vaccination actually develops the signs of the disease they were being vaccinated against?

I think that's kinda the point.

You give them a lesser version of the disease so the body build immunity against it.

[JMonkey]

I know chap, I posted that on page 3. I was referring to comments made that, with exaggeration, vaccinated people are far likely to contract the full disease than non-vaccinated.

I.E - If it's really that simple as not getting vaccinated then why isn't the world doing it?

[Aleksander Krstic]

Make your kids go raw, they won't need any vaccines thereafter.

[hawkal]

One of the things I wonder though is, wouldn't you agree that most people inside government and heath care organisations would honestly believe that they are doing the right thing in making sure everyone is vaccinated?

I don't want to defend them because you should have every right to make a choice but then what if everyone exercised the right to decide and chosen not to get their children vaccinated, only for their children to all catch the illness that the vaccine would of prevented. Fingers would be pointed in all directions even though it would be the fault of the parents..

See when choosing not to get your child vaccinated are you not just relying on the fact that most people will get their children vaccinated, reducing the chance of any disease spreading to your child?

It's a double edged sword with razor sharp blades.