Meat lovers and omnivores

[andrew]

Here's a thread for us that like the best of both worlds.

There's no way I could be a vegitarian. There's nothing better than a nice juicy steak and A1 sauce.

Okay, so what?

I hear people saying it's all bad etc, but what about the postives? I mean, will staying an omnivore REALLY stunt my development or cause me to be a less healthy person? All these threads about veagen etc, nothing on meat and veg. I mean, I think it's healthier eatting meat and natural foods, than to be a vegitarian and drink soda and junk food.

Nothing against those who are, but don't come in here trying to convert.

[Hsiang-Lin]

Fair enough although I'd just add that we must remember to always question our fundamental beliefs. Making up our minds before fully understanding the whole issue leads to ignorance. But I'm sure you know that already since you're on this forum

[skinnyninja]

I'm definitely a meat lover. I don't know what's wrong with me. Maybe I'm addicted to meat.

I quit smoking a little over a year ago, and--as a reward to myself--I told myself that I would eat steak every single day. Because of my work schedule, I could only eat steak 6 days a week....but I basically stuck to this and ate steak for 6 days each week for the entire year, with very few exceptions.

I recently got kind of got bored with steak and decided to switch to hamburgers. Now I grill 2 hamburgers for my dinner, with bacon, cheese, and mayonaise. And of course, I do this 6 days a week. I'm obsessive this way and it drives my roommate nuts. "Can't you eat steak one day and burgers the next?" he asks.

No. I guess I can't. I'm on to burgers now.

After reading Steve's 30 day trials with veganism and raw foods diet, I became interested and think that I should make a change. I don't know how to do it though. I am allergic to seafood, nuts, and beans, and I basically hate vegetables. I don't even really like chicken all that much. I guess I'm a red meat addict.

But I feel fairly good. And since I quit smoking, I jog six miles three times a week. And I am fairly skinny. I don't remember the last time I got sick even.

I think eating meat helps me sleep. My sleep schedule is a nightmare, by the way. For the past 4 years, I've been working third shift twice a week, then switching back to "normal" hours. Because I don't take naps, this schedule has be sleeping 6 times a week instead of 7 times. It's weird, to say the least.

Sorry there is more than one topic in there...guess I'm a bit out of control!

[Adam]

I'm part of the camp that believes in an 'evolutionary' diet... The idea behind it is that humans have developed over hundreds of thousands of years eating lots of vegetables, seasonal fruits, and meat as the opportunity presents itself.

Most fruit appears in fall, just before the hardships of winter, so humans are designed to store that type of sugar as fat. The vast majority of food came from vegetables, so that seems to be the best way to sustain a person with a healthy diet, but even then, people have been able to get a full meal of meat at least once a week, even if it was from small game.

I am very against processed food, especially high-starch and highly refined flour based foods, such as baked potatoes, french fries, and enriched white bread... That, more than anything, is probably what has kept my weight down around 130 lbs.

Then again, this is just my opinion, and my low weight could simply be my metabolism keeping me healthy... I haven't done much in-depth research into diet, except researching the South Beach Diet, so I could be wrong.

[andrew]

No, I admit I'm fairly ignorant to all the reasons etc, but people just seem to make a huge deal out of it. It's not like I'm some pyscho meat eater, I just enjoy it, and all the food it's in. I'm you're average human.

I suppose I don't see the benifits outweighting all the effort and work I'd have to put into not eatting meat. It's not like it's anything really BAD for you. I think it's just that it's not the best possible way. I'm okay with that though. It's something that I enjoy, and I'm fairly healthy, so I just don't see the fuss.

[Michael Chui]

Generally speaking, I think that food is like medicine. Effects are quite personal, and you don't know what they are for you until you've tried it.

I'm an omnivore, and I like meat. I've considered going vegetarian, but I think that'd be contrary to my enjoyment of life, so I'd rather not. I do, however, make a point to enjoy vegetables and non-lettuce-intensive salads on occasion. One of my best friend's girlfriend happens to be a vegetarian, which means that on one hand, I get shown some of the great things in the plant world, and on the other, when we go out, my friend has to have meat, because he's suffered a deficit. =P

[escapee]

Once you "experiment" vegan/vegetarian diet for 1 -2 months , you would see meat/dairy product differently and your definition of delicious food would change as well . For me , changing to vegan diet was easier than i initially thought.

You dont have to convert to complete vegan "freak" like me and others . What you could do is to include more green stuffs into your meal for the benefit of your long term health. You may argue that you are very healthy now by being a 90% meat eater , but what about 10 years later or 15 years later when you have a lovely family to care for . Chronic disease takes time to express with the combination of stress , genetic predeposition, toxic environment, lack of exercise and most importantly - the food that we eat , when it finally does , in many cases it could be too late to rectify ..

Hippocrates (Father of Modern Medicine) cant say it any better:"Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food"

[Razo]

Vegetarian/vegan diets have intrigued me in the past, but i think the main obstacle for me is to defy most of the family foods i get given and a limit of variety. I think excluding myself from some of the family meals, that go back to my cultural roots would be close to impossible.

however, i do try and eat a mostly vegan diet as often as they're not around. It's definitely something i would like to explore more.

[andrew]

Originally Posted by escapee

Once you "experiment" vegan/vegetarian diet for 1 -2 months , you would see meat/dairy product differently and your definition of delicious food would change as well . For me , changing to vegan diet was easier than i initially thought.

You dont have to convert to complete vegan "freak" like me and others . What you could do is to include more green stuffs into your meal for the benefit of your long term health. You may argue that you are very healthy now by being a 90% meat eater , but what about 10 years later or 15 years later when you have a lovely family to care for . Chronic disease takes time to express with the combination of stress , genetic predeposition, toxic environment, lack of exercise and most importantly - the food that we eat , when it finally does , in many cases it could be too late to rectify ..

Hippocrates (Father of Modern Medicine) cant say it any better:"Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food"

While that very well may be the case, I'm not really 90% meat eatter, but I do seem to eat more proccessed foods and meats than vegitables. That's just details though. I can understand what you're saying, but I feel I am eatting fairly healthy, no bad habits, and excercize regularly. So I still don't get how you can make that out to be such a bad thing. I'm sure I'm living in the top 25% healthy people in America. That's a random ass number, but I digress.

[The Yarnist]

Originally Posted by andrew

While that very well may be the case, I'm not really 90% meat eatter, but I do seem to eat more proccessed foods and meats than vegitables. That's just details though. I can understand what you're saying, but I feel I am eatting fairly healthy, no bad habits, and excercize regularly. So I still don't get how you can make that out to be such a bad thing. I'm sure I'm living in the top 25% healthy people in America. That's a random ass number, but I digress.

I gave veg a try for quite a bit and it wasn't for me. I've made peace with that. My post below gives more details about that.

Veganism in a subjective reality

[november]

I find the guilt (I think that's the word I want to use) being manifested in this thread quite interesting.

The fact is that YOU get to choose how to feed your body. No one else. And, you can do it however you like. If you feel the need to answer to others b/c of your chosen diet, perhaps you should get to the reasons behind that. If you feel the need to convert others (or make a grande attempt at convincing them that your choice is, indeed, better and not really that hard to do), perhaps you should get to the reasons behind that.

Another person's eating habits are not of my concern. And, I eat meat.

[Brendon Colby]

Originally Posted by november

I find the guilt (I think that's the word I want to use) being manifested in this thread quite interesting.

I've sensed quite a bit of guilt being manifested in a lot of threads here (already!) that have discussed this topic.

Originally Posted by november

The fact is that YOU get to choose how to feed your body. No one else. And, you can do it however you like. If you feel the need to answer to others b/c of your chosen diet, perhaps you should get to the reasons behind that. If you feel the need to convert others (or make a grande attempt at convincing them that your choice is, indeed, better and not really that hard to do), perhaps you should get to the reasons behind that.

Another person's eating habits are not of my concern. And, I eat meat.

Agreed.

[The David]

I'm an omnivore, though not necessarily a 'meat lover.' I may eventually become a vegetarian. I don't really care about giving up every food I eat now, I just don't know if I have the resources (I'm in college and I'm on the meal plan).

It comes down to what you personally value more. A year ago, I wouldn't have even considered becoming a semi-vegetarian.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by andrew

I hear people saying it's all bad etc, but what about the postives? I mean, will staying an omnivore REALLY stunt my development or cause me to be a less healthy person? All these threads about veagen etc, nothing on meat and veg. I mean, I think it's healthier eatting meat and natural foods, than to be a vegitarian and drink soda and junk food.

Yes it REALLY WILL stunt certain kinds of development. But if you have to ask, then it doesn't concern you (at the moment).

Meat is expensive, and yet the economic lower class does not, and has never embraced veganism. It is an upper-middle-class affectation.

[november]

I thought ppl asked questions when things did concern them. LOL

[andrew]

Maybe I'm giving out the wrong impression. I'm not guilty at all, nor do I need to justify my reasons to anyone.

I was mearly curious, and interested in other's views, that's all. I don't have a problem I'm trying to fix or a critical answer I'm looking for, just interested.

[JoaquinFox]

Andrew-

I'm having trouble believing you saying that you just started the topic out of "curiosity". Especially since you seem so closed off to the possiblity of trying a vegetarian or vegan diet yourself on a 30 day trial and you also seem to be dismissing anyone who says that you need to experience it yourself in order to have a real understanding. If you are really curious about it, you could have all the answers yourself by trying it yourself. It just doesn't make sense to me why you would try any other approach.

I promise you that a 30 day trial of veganism won't kill you. And I also promise that it would give you a totally different perspective on why so many of us are vegetarian or vegan than just soliciting other's opinions.

As for lack of variety that's just completely inconsistent with my experience, but you have to be open to trying new things and experimenting with new foods. There's no way to convince you of this until you try it yourself. Like Steve often says, "I can't convince you that the color blue exists if you insist on holding onto a red lens". Let me tell you though THE COLOR BLUE EXISTS whether I convince you of it or not. And a vegan diet has been a remarkable source of happiness, health and pleasure in my life.

You don't have to defend, explain or rationalize your meat eating to me or anyone else, but I can say that I've tried both and I am happy being a vegan.

[Hsiang-Lin]

andrew,

Although I agree you are entitled to your own opinion, when you wrote, "I'm not guilty at all," some part of me said, "Ouch."

Making up your mind on an issue before fully understanding it is a symptom of ignorance. It's a subtle, but important concept to understand and often when it hits me I'm amazed at how easy it is to get sucked into a concept or belief.

Like I said before, don't approach the issue from a meat lover's perspective. Approach it with a beginner's mind and you will understand the issue. And if you still feel eating meat is better? Fair enough. You don't owe anyone but yourself to follow the path of truth and understanding, not ignorance.

[ChefSalad]

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

Making up your mind on an issue before fully understanding it is a symptom of ignorance.

Only if you don't change your mind later. I think we are all guilty of jumping to conclusions now and again. That is human nature. Ignorance (the truest evil) is when you won't change you mind based on new evidence or even hear said evidence. I sense that that may be going on in a number of omnivorous people's minds. Oh well.

Anywho, bringing this back to the topic, I've tried going vegetarian twice now. I don't really think there's any wrong with eating meat per se, but the way it's currently obtained makes it so. Hence the reason I'd like to at least reduce my meat consumption.

My past experience tells me that vegetarian diets can have distinct health problems of their own, and, as such, I'm sure that they can also stunt development. The last time I tried, I actually gained weight in the end (not a good thing for someone who's already overweight), and had strange problems with jock itch (a type of yeast infection). I think, though, that my main problem was that a lack of variety (mainly from not knowing what to eat) gave way to a "veg-junk-etarian" (to quote someone else) diet, and junkfood is never good.

So to all you established vegans and vegetarians: give us ideas on meals and strategies to increase variety and healthfulness. And leave the soy and fake meat at home. That stuff just makes me want the real thing and costs a buttload. Eventually, with enough veg-based options, a meat-free diet may take hold. Or it might not, but leave that up to us omnivores. That's the real way to change minds on this issue.

Besides, doing a 30-day vegetarian/vegan trial would be very difficult for a person with little to no vegetarian cooking experience. To expect them to try it before they condemn it is difficult when trying it is not really an option. So, veggievores, give us your love and your recipes so that we omnivores will at least have to tools to try.

[andrew]

Easy now, I don't like when I get the feeling I need to defend myself.

In the begining I said I was ignorant to it, I know that. That's why I was curious. I didn't make this thread to have people convince me one way or another, I just figured there is all this talk about people being vegan, there should be one on the other side.

There's always pros and cons to each side right? I mean I'm not against it or anything, I think it's great. I just find eatting meat to be very pleasurable in my life and figured it really can't be all that bad as it's made out to be, yeah? I mean technically I'm open to it, but I'm not very excited to try it out, hence my original statement.

[Emerald]

Hi everyone

This is one of the first threads I’ve picked up (I only joined late last night) and I’m fascinated by the whiffs of unease that I’m picking up in this discussion. I’m an omnivore myself. Ideally I would be vegetarian because I think it is ethically and environmentally a sound choice. However, my experience was/is that my energy levels dip alarming if I don’t eat some meat and fish, so I wasn’t able to continue eating a purely vegetarian diet as a long term choice. I just don’t feel “well” eating this way.

For what it’s worth, I think that by the time you are an adult you have eaten thousands of meals, made from a wide variety of foods, and should have developed a good sense of what foods agree with your constitution and make you feel healthy and energetic. If you haven’t developed this understanding then maybe a 30 day trial of your current diet would be in order! That is, really tune in to what you eat for the next 30 days, keeping written notes of what foods you consume and how you feel each day. Perhaps then if you try out other ways of eating the comparisons will be more meaningful.

[goodstyles]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

Yes it REALLY WILL stunt certain kinds of development. But if you have to ask, then it doesn't concern you (at the moment).

Huh? It doesn't concern him? Now I am intrigued...

What sort of development is being stunted by needing to ask this?

[andrew]

Originally Posted by Emerald

Hi everyone

This is one of the first threads I’ve picked up (I only joined late last night) and I’m fascinated by the whiffs of unease that I’m picking up in this discussion. I’m an omnivore myself. Ideally I would be vegetarian because I think it is ethically and environmentally a sound choice. However, my experience was/is that my energy levels dip alarming if I don’t eat some meat and fish, so I wasn’t able to continue eating a purely vegetarian diet as a long term choice. I just don’t feel “well” eating this way.

For what it’s worth, I think that by the time you are an adult you have eaten thousands of meals, made from a wide variety of foods, and should have developed a good sense of what foods agree with your constitution and make you feel healthy and energetic. If you haven’t developed this understanding then maybe a 30 day trial of your current diet would be in order! That is, really tune in to what you eat for the next 30 days, keeping written notes of what foods you consume and how you feel each day. Perhaps then if you try out other ways of eating the comparisons will be more meaningful.

Very nice first post, and welcome! You make good points.

[JoaquinFox]

I don't think anyone needs to defend themselves for their food choices. I don't want to speak for anyone else's experiences, but I have to say in terms of raising your consciousness and having a true understanding of why a vegetarian lifestyle would be positive or negative you would have to do it yourself. No one telling you one way or the other is really going to get you to the truth. I accept that there are people out there who have experimented with vegetarianism and found it not to suit them, but I find it completely foolish for someone who's never experienced a sustained and healthy vegetarian or vegan diet to voice a credible opinion on the matter.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of what diet they should choose, I'm only trying to point out that the methodology of polling people's opinion who have no experience with a sustained and healthy vegetarian or vegan diet will only render flawed conclusions. As Steve said in one of his podcasts regarding the nature of reality, he recognized that if Buddha was correct about reality he would never be able to know that until he let go of his own limited beliefs. Another analogy would be to describe the benefits of a orgasm to someone...you are never going to know what that experience is truly like until you have it yourself.

If you like meat that's great, but that's really not the point. The point is that the only people who will really understand the reasons and the rationales for going vegetarian are the ones who have taken it on and experienced the benefits (or so be it the drawbacks) of the diet. We're here to encourage each other to act consciously, so while the boards are useful in providing a space for us to share our experiences, there's no substitute for actually taking on the experience for yourself. That's the only way I can see your first post being consciously answered.

[JoaquinFox]

Originally Posted by ChefSalad

Besides, doing a 30-day vegetarian/vegan trial would be very difficult for a person with little to no vegetarian cooking experience. To expect them to try it before they condemn it is difficult when trying it is not really an option. So, veggievores, give us your love and your recipes so that we omnivores will at least have to tools to try.

Resources abound on the web, local bookstores, the library, local vegetarian groups, etc, etc, etc. Put out the intention to find good resources, maybe?

Here's your alpha reflection, ChefSalad: whyvegan.com, vegweb.com, veganfreak.com and don't forget Erin's site and book: VegFamily magazine - Raising Vegan Children, Vegan Pregnancy, and Vegan Recipes

As for books without fake meats and junk foody recipes: The Accidental Vegan, 101 Vegan Favorites, La Dolce Vegan, and Vegan With A Vengence. Find them on Amazon or powells.com.

Groups and community: I know firsthand there are vegetarians and vegan in rural Arkansas and Alabama, so don't tell me there's no possibility of you finding other people where you live.

Getting over cooking fears: Trail and error - if you don't burn it you can probably still eat whatever it is you've made. It's really hard to get food poisoning from vegan food and if you do like the recent spinach e-coli stuff it's usually a product of factory farming. So, just follow your recipes and you'll get faster and better. Buy a veg cookbook that emphasizes simplicity- there are too many to count.

[julien]

Using the word "lover" involves a generous part of greed. This is not difficult to eliminate greed as it is only psychological. An example from my personal experience in China here
Useless to say, I don't eat lots of meat ...

[Amadeus]

Why do we eat food? We eat food for energy, but where do we get the energy from? We get it from the sun. So when you eat plants you are getting energy from the absorbed sunlight. We eat animals and animial byproducts because they eat plants and the energy is absorbed by their flesh and is also found in cow's milk. It seems to make sense to get your energy as direct from the source as possible. I've been vegan now for about 2 months. I really think the most benefit has come from not eating dairy. I can't believe how much fat I was eating on a daily basis. I use to think I was addicted to sweets and believed in the whole Atkins theory. However, I realized a great deal of the junk I was eating contained diary in the form of chocolate, creams, and icing. Taking that crap out of my diet I believe is saving my life.

[ahimel]

I'm an omnivore. My roommate is a vegetarian for allergy reasons (animal products make him sick), and so I've gotten a lot of practice cooking vegetarian foods. I personally love the taste of meat - I love steaks, bacon, fried chicken, hamburgers... It's hard for me to imagine a lifestyle that gives all of that up. But a lot of people have said that the benefits gained from becoming a vegetarian were unbelievable, so I figure I'll give it a try someday. I'm thinking I'll give up meat for Lent come spring.

At the end of that trial, if I feel better, I'll continue as a veggie. If I don't feel better, but I don't miss meat, I'll continue as a veggie because it's cheaper. If I don't feel better and miss meat, I'll go back to being omnivorous.

The other thing I think a lot of people miss is the possibility of reducing intake without being a vegetarian fanatic. Because my roommate HAS to have a vegetarian meal, and because I don't always feel like cooking two versions of the same meal, I've cut down on my meat intake by quite a bit. Instead of the typical US diet that includes meat 2-3 times per day, I eat meat 2-3 times per week. Even if I go veggie next Easter, I'm not going to beat myself up if I decide I want a steak -- I'll eat a steak if the craving comes on me every 2-3 months. Does this make me as enlightened as Steve? No. But even Steve says it's stupid to be comparing myself to him. Does this make me 225x more enlightened, compassionate and healthy than I was 5 years ago? Yes. I'll settle for 295% growth/year.

Having tried to find veggie food options for several years now, my advice to the I-want-variety-vegetarian-wannabe is this: see how many of the things you cook already can be done meat-free. Obviously there's nothing you can do about a steak -- that's pretty much unavoidably a meat dish. But spaghetti can be done meat free -- just don't use meatballs/meat sauce. Pizza can be done meat free -- don't order/leave off the pepperoni. Salads, soups and baked pototoes can be done meat free -- leave off the bacon bits. Shepard's pie is good with beans, and Mexican is almost always as good as a bean burrito instead of a beef-and-bean burrito. 90% of the things I cook straight out of an off-the-shelf, down-home style cookbook can be made vegetarian - we either leave out the meat or we substitute textured soy protein or beans.

You can also look into ethnic foods. In most second- and third-world countries, meat is a luxury. So they've got an awful lot of really good recipes that don't involve meat. I've had good luck with Mexican and Hungarian.

[thadroe]

Being 100% vegetarian or vegan isn't necessarily crucial to good health. Plus, there's a lot of unhealthy vegetarians out there who eat mostly junk food. The key is, whether you are vegetarin or not, to try and get most of your calories from plant food.

You are ignoring some pretty hardcore scientific evidence if you think that eating a meat based diet will not harm you. Just do some research for yourself on the internet. The evidence is overwhelming that plant food is good for you and animal products are bad for you.

Just look at some very large scale studies like the China Project or the Nurses health study to name a couple.

I'm definitely not here to convert anyone. You always have a choice, but if you look at the evidence, you have to accept the consequences of that choice.

Thad

[november]

I'm pretty sure that the evidence is that a mostly plant-based diet is better for you than a mostly meat-based diet. That does not mean that eating animal products is bad for you. Correlational evidence does not necessarily lend itself to causal arguments.

The fact is that if you make statements like, "if you look at the evidence, blah blah blah", you are attempting to convert someone. Not that that's a bad thing.

And, who says ppl aren't accepting the consequences of their choices? There is the underlying assumption that if someone eats meat, he or she is somehow irresponsible. That is not something that can proven as truth, so why even worry about it?