Starting to Believe Diet is not the Answer

[Michelle]

For years I've struggled with about 30 extra pounds. I've tried almost everything with varying success. This diet, that diet, this way of life, that way of life, counting fat, counting calories, no counting, no meat, yes meat, only meat, raw diet, veganism, no carbs, yes carbs,no dairy, yes dairy, no sugar, lots of sugar, natural whole foods, junk foods, lots of exercise, no exercise, more rest, less rest, pilates, yoga, cycling, jogging, strength training, body awareness, alexander technique ... I could go on. I've felt under so much pressure to make this decision, make that decision ... for every diet or technique you'll find both success stories and naysayers who claim it is the worst thing you can do! What's worse, followers of one diet who are extremely convinced about their choice love to spread guilt and warnings to each other about the dangers or consequences of the other's chosen path. "Definitive" research on any given subject most often points in every direction known to man and adds nothing but more confusion to the pot.

The conclusion I've started coming to is: The reason we don't find an answer is because we are looking in the wrong place.

Diet and exercise are not the answers to health and well-being people believe them to be. Eating healthful foods and wanting to give your body some daily exercise come as a natural response to being ready and internally in that place. And while the body certainly benefits from certain natural foods and a bit of movement those aren't the building block of health.

Feeling good, joyful, loved and loving, relaxed, fulfilled, and free is really important in life and THOSE feelings are the building blocks of health. The reason all of the above techniques failed for me (and most people) is because they are too hard. They go upstream and cause lots of stress and pain in people's lives. I want to be healthy and fit just as much as the next guy, but I don't want to have to kill or deprive myself (I'm thinking: pretty unhealthy) to get there! There is nothing healthy about a body builder who eats right, works out every day but has decades of unexpressed anger or pain to work out which expresses itself through high blood pressure for which he needs to pop 5 pills a day. Good grief.

With so much info available on diet and exercise and everyone focusing on them as the ultimate solution to health, weight loss and well-being it can be incredibly confusing and frustrating for someone wanting to take loving care of herself to figure out the best way to do that.

And today it dawned on me: over the past several years of my own personal development which included weekly therapy and daily meditation my body HAS changed and my health HAS improved. A lot! And truly and honestly, I owe very very little of that improvement to any outer lifestyle adjustments. Every real and lasting improvement has first taken place on the inside. Everything I approached with an outside-first-attitude has sometimes temporarily succeeded but ultimately failed. Any lasting and successful outer adjustments in my life first came from being internally motivated and then seemed very easy and natural. Anything I tried to do without this motivation was extremely hard, exhausting, stressful and didn't work. Anything that wasn't ultimately loving to myself (and actually FELT good and loving - not the kind of pain and suffering people like to claim is love because that is how they think love feels) failed. Everything done lovingly, succeeds.

That's why I think the best "work out" you can give yourself is an internal one. Figuring out what your weight and health problems are ACTUALLY about (for this Louise Hay's You Can Heal Your Life is great!) along with meditations, working out those issues at the core level with lots of loving support, self love and self soothing, and a committment to gradually surrendering upon path of least resistance - the natural flow of life - can't help but lead to health and well-being. We humans think we know it all but sometimes we are so incredibly arrogant!

Edit: I'd just like to add (for anyone who is interested) the most important things I have done in order to gain health and fitness were to FORGIVE and LOVE. You don't realize just how exhausting holding a grudge can be and how dead you can feel if you don't allow yourself to be "nourished" by real love.

[Angela]

Arrogance burns calories!

No, just joking; I'm totally with you -- so many people feverishly *trying* to lose weight and stressing out about diet and exercise, believing that when they reach some arbitrary goal, THEN they will feel good.

Why wait?

I think it goes along with the "common wisdom" that suffering now leads to ecstasy later ... someone even started a thread here recently about how swearing off pleasure leads to success. I think that's a sucker's bet. It makes a lot more sense to me practice feeling good NOW and keep getting better and better at it! In my experience, the more you feel good, the better you feel. It's an upward spiral.

Maybe it would be a good idea to learn new ways of feeling good -- ones that work better -- if one is looking for different results. Eating coconut cream pie every day has a certain feel-good quality, and learning the joy of delicious, fresh, high-quality clean food provides another sort of feeling-good -- one that works better, in my experience, for feeling good now AND later. Taking a brisk walk or lifting weights, or playing volleyball, they have an entirely different sort of good-feel than laying around on the couch watching Law & Order: Criminal Intent. Both feel great, and it works really well to learn the balance that feels best for my body and mind now.

I love your quote: "Everything done lovingly succeeds." And sometimes treating yourself lovingly entails breaking through a certain amount of discomfort, but even discomfort can be a form of feeling good, amazingly enough -- if it's done lovingly. (As opposed to that old, 'I hate my body, I should get my fat butt up off this couch" approach. )

Love is thought, and love is action, and love feels good.

Thanks for your post -- I am inspired.

[DoctorB2B]

Michelle, I'm glad you've found a way to be happy with yourself however I think you are misguided. If you're a 400lb individual who works out "internally", you're not healthy ... you're only kidding yourself (note: I'm not saying you're 400lbs, just making a point).

I am aware of underlying conditions that could work against you in terms of weight loss but more often than not, this is not the case.

To say that diet and exercise are not the answers to health and well-being people believe them to be is, in my opinion, nonsense. Diet and exercise go hand in hand with what you're speaking of ... this internal workout. If you cut these two vital elements out, you're setting yourself up for a joyless, unloving, and unfulfilled life where you certainly don't feel free from yourself much less anything else.

You mentioned that maintaining proper diet and exercising is too hard. It is hard, your body wants to hold onto fat ... that's a natural response that has to be overcome. However what must be realized is that you're preparing yourself for health later in life rather than death early in life.

I would request that you omit your unfounded bodybuilder comment from your post ... it's stereotypical and really unnecessary for your argument. For giggles though, I'll humor you ... I don't know many bodybuilders who have built up anger, nor resentment for the years of hard work they've put in. I've been body building for a decade now, I certainly don't have any regrets, I'm healthy both inside and outside ...

What it sounds like to me is that you give up too quickly. I've gathered this from the numerous diets you have tried (any successful attempt will usually last 6-12 months minimum and I assume you aren't well advanced in age therefore you haven't really attempted many of these properly). It should be noted that these "diets" are for the most part a joke. Weight loss follows a simple formula: Calories in < calories out on a daily basis. I don't understand why it is so necessary for people to over complicate this very basic mathematical premise. Giving up too quickly also seems evident by the comment that it is simply too hard. Most things in life of any worth come with hard work. Maintaining a harmonious marriage takes hard work, becoming healthy internally is hard work, succeeding at anything takes hard work ... etc.

I would encourage you drop the notion that it's too hard and get back to it. The hard work is worth it ... trust me, if you had to see what I see on a daily basis you would want to work hard. Too often people wish they had taken better care of their bodies. Had they done so there was a good chance they could have avoided the death and disease they are currently suffering.

Continue to build your internal strength, but make that coincide with the external as well ...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by DoctorB2B

... succeeding at anything takes hard work ...

Ahh, there's more of that "common wisdom" I was talking about!

Doctor, I didn't hear Michelle saying she advocates cutting out eating healthy and moving her body. It sounds to me like she's advocating shifting the focus from these TOOLS -- these "in-order-to's" -- to a focus on the heart's desire that, if it were the focus, easily and effortlessly has her eating healthily and moving her body with joy and enthusiasm, rather than using those tools out of a sense of doing a chore or punishing herself for being wrong and bad.

People often start lower on the hierarchy -- they start at the behavior. But it's just not as effective at starting higher on the hierarchy -- up, up, up at the level of values, beliefs, and most effective of all, identity. If Who You Are is Love, then eating, moving, and everything else you do is done with love, with no effort at all -- no sense of "hard work" -- it doesn't occur as pain, but rather as Love. It may look like hard work to an outsider, but the person who is Being Love might just laugh at that notion.

And a person who is Being Love is not bloody likely to eat poorly or stay in bed all day. Being love just naturally spirals up as treating your body well.

I agree with Michelle that diet and exercise are not the answer. They are very valuable tools, and they are naturally and easily occurring outcomes of what I think the answer really is: Be your heart's desire.

[Michelle]

Michelle, I'm glad you've found a way to be happy with yourself however I think you are misguided.

That's okay. I'm fairly convinced I could have written ANYTHING concerning diet and someone would tell me I am "misguided". :-)

You mentioned that maintaining proper diet and exercising is too hard. It is hard, your body wants to hold onto fat ... that's a natural response that has to be overcome. However what must be realized is that you're preparing yourself for health later in life rather than death early in life.

I just don't believe anything should be hard. That brings me joy :-). Exercise and a healthy diet can be absolute torture for someone who isn't yet in that place. I believe exercise and diet arise naturally in our lives as "symptoms" or results of doing something right just as sickess and disease arise as symptoms or results of doing something wrong.

I would request that you omit your unfounded bodybuilder comment from your post ... it's stereotypical and really unnecessary for your argument. For giggles though, I'll humor you ... I don't know many bodybuilders who have built up anger, nor resentment for the years of hard work they've put in. I've been body building for a decade now, I certainly don't have any regrets, I'm healthy both inside and outside ...

I understand that not all bodybuilders fit this profile, but one I knew closely did - my father. And, having grown up running around gyms, I've seen a lot.

What it sounds like to me is that you give up too quickly. I've gathered this from the numerous diets you have tried (any successful attempt will usually last 6-12 months minimum and I assume you aren't well advanced in age therefore you haven't really attempted many of these properly). It should be noted that these "diets" are for the most part a joke. Weight loss follows a simple formula: Calories in < calories out on a daily basis. I don't understand why it is so necessary for people to over complicate this very basic mathematical premise.

I'll take into consideration what you say about quitting but I like to think of it more as experimenting or trying. Even the "calories in, calories out" theory can be proved wrong by research. Some research speaks for counting fat. Still others say it matters what kind of calories or fat. New research is born into our world each day which contradicts previous finding or adds to them in a confusing way.

Giving up too quickly also seems evident by the comment that it is simply too hard. Most things in life of any worth come with hard work. Maintaining a harmonious marriage takes hard work, becoming healthy internally is hard work, succeeding at anything takes hard work ... etc.

Look, I've worked really hard at things but only when the internal motivation was there. Then it was hard but didn't seem hard or it seemed hard but the hardness was irrelevant compared to the joy or need to move forward. That is the difference I guess. And I think it is only worth working hard at something when it doesn't make me miserable. I choose to be happy! And, believe it or not, I'm not fat, ugly or unhealthy (although by no means perfect).

The hard work is worth it ... trust me, if you had to see what I see on a daily basis you would want to work hard. Too often people wish they had taken better care of their bodies. Had they done so there was a good chance they could have avoided the death and disease they are currently suffering.

Well, to me it isn't worth it. And I don't have any disease. In fact, the more internal work I do the more ease I experience.

Continue to build your internal strength, but make that coincide with the external as well ...

I couldn't agree more :-)

[Michelle]

Arrogance burns calories!

No, just joking; I'm totally with you -- so many people feverishly *trying* to lose weight and stressing out about diet and exercise, believing that when they reach some arbitrary goal, THEN they will feel good.

Why wait?

My sentiments exactly.

Maybe it would be a good idea to learn new ways of feeling good -- ones that work better -- if one is looking for different results. Eating coconut cream pie every day has a certain feel-good quality, and learning the joy of delicious, fresh, high-quality clean food provides another sort of feeling-good -- one that works better, in my experience, for feeling good now AND later. Taking a brisk walk or lifting weights, or playing volleyball, they have an entirely different sort of good-feel than laying around on the couch watching Law & Order: Criminal Intent. Both feel great, and it works really well to learn the balance that feels best for my body and mind now.

Hey, I'm all for going out of one's comfort zone and experimenting/trying out etc ... but not for sticking to something which provides more misery than benefit. I think the path of bliss ultimately DOES lead to the outer goals many of us strive for, but there is a big difference between forcing something happen and allowing something to unfold. That difference, of course, is love and doesn't fruit grown with love taste much better?

I love your quote: "Everything done lovingly succeeds." And sometimes treating yourself lovingly entails breaking through a certain amount of discomfort, but even discomfort can be a form of feeling good, amazingly enough -- if it's done lovingly. (As opposed to that old, 'I hate my body, I should get my fat butt up off this couch" approach. )

Love is thought, and love is action, and love feels good.

Totally.

[Michelle]

Eating coconut cream pie every day has a certain feel-good quality, and learning the joy of delicious, fresh, high-quality clean food provides another sort of feeling-good -- one that works better, in my experience, for feeling good now AND later.

I was just thinking about this and again have to come back to inner work because you'll have an awfully hard time convincing someone who feels unworthy, dirty or unclean to enjoy "high-quality clean food". In my own experience, the better I feel the better food I want and vice versa.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michelle

... you'll have an awfully hard time convincing someone who feels unworthy, dirty or unclean to enjoy "high-quality clean food"..

I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince anyone to enjoy anything, but I'm happy to take time to present the opportunity to enjoy something. Once again, the difference is between "hard work" and being my heart's desire.

You're right; the food (and the exercise, too) are just tools. If you're Being Worthless -- believing thoughts like you are unworthy or dirty or unclean -- you're probably not going to be interested in tools that don't support that way of being. No amount of "convincing" is going to make much difference; advice like "Calories in, calories out!!" is probably going to just get tossed right out by your little Gremlin Bouncer.

And. When you take on a way of being that feels good -- one that inspires you -- suddenly your unconscious mind and your conscious mind start working together to get you the results that work well for both, and it's easy and effortless to pick tools that work well. I think it's really, really valuable to start with your identity and your beliefs, rather than with the tools.

What's that old saying? "To someone who only has a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Imagine yourself free of your old negative emotions and limiting beliefs; just imagine for a moment what would be possible in your life, not just in regards to your fitness, but in every area, if you were practicing Being what inspires you, and practicing letting go of that old, outdated gunk, and living your ideal life.

Can you imagine how delightedly your body would respond to thoughts that inspire you? Can you see yourself making different choices about what you put into a Beloved body, as opposed to the foods you'd put into a worthless one? What foods and drinks would you serve to someone whom you admire and adore? What kinds of activities would you choose if you were loving yourself as a daily practice? Who would you be doing them with? What thoughts and beliefs would you be willing to let go of if it meant having all of that possibility of an ideal life right here, right now?

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Michelle

For years I've struggled with about 30 extra pounds....Diet and exercise are not the answers to health and well-being people believe them to be.

But the flaw in your logic is that being a few pounds overweight was against your good "health and well being". Could it be your body type is just such that your healthy weight is slightly above the weight charts?

Healthy food does not automatically mean weight loss. And I've seen some thin people survive on absolute garbage food. But is the thin person really healthy? One of my friends was thin because she was mentally ill and running on massive worry/upset, her body tended to burn off some extra calories. Another woman I knew was thin because she was anorexic and it ended up killing her at a young age. I am overweight but my bp and cholesterol are "ideal" and I don't need medications. (I admittedly don't eat 100% healthy, but my point is that a little body fat isn't a curse)

Healthy eating is something everyone should be doing, no matter our weight.

Eating healthful foods and wanting to give your body some daily exercise come as a natural response to being ready and internally in that place. And while the body certainly benefits from certain natural foods and a bit of movement those aren't the building block of health.

No, you still need basic nutrition. You could've been the happiest pirate sailing the high seas, but happy or not, most of them had scurvy from lack of vitamin C. A really optimistic & content young man in victorian England might feel happy with what the has, but if his job was to work in the mines through all daylight hours, he's sure to get rickets from lack of Vit D. The basic rules of nutrition apply to everyone.

There is nothing healthy about a body builder who eats right, works out every day but has decades of unexpressed anger or pain to work out which expresses itself through high blood pressure for which he needs to pop 5 pills a day. Good grief.

But most body builders also eat a high meat diet, which is strongly linked to high blood pressure. Salt intake is also a risk factor, which people overdo and not realize.

Everything done lovingly, succeeds.

I'm not sure I agree with that. The path to hell is paved with good intentions. People can mean well but really harm or kill them self or another.

For example, look at some of the extremist religions. The parents deny their kids basic things such as blood transfusions because the parents "love" the child and believe it'll earn the child a better place in heaven. What it ends up doing is killing, should Junior get in a car accident and lose a lot of blood.

While I don't disagree mental/spiritual health is very important to overall wellness, what we need is BALANCE.

a committment to gradually surrendering upon path of least resistance - the natural flow of life - can't help but lead to health and well-being.

I don't know. To some people, the path of least resistance is apathy and sloth. These are the people who don't want to try doing anything for fear of failing, claiming they just want to 'go with the flow'. Simply existing without taking an active role in one's own health and happiness seems like it could fail.

You seem to be saying if one has a great outlook, health will follow. But I believe other factors are at work on our health, and the surest way to ruin my happy day is for someone to tell me I'm dying of cancer or my heart is failing. All the meditation in the world won't save me then.

Balance your physical needs with your emotional/spiritual ones. All are important!

[Michelle]

Could it be your body type is just such that your healthy weight is slightly above the weight charts?

Perhaps. But my body tells me she would feel better if I would let her be a little less leavy.

Healthy eating is something everyone should be doing, no matter our weight.

"Should" statements are always a problem because they thrust guilt and failure upon everyone who isn't doing that thing. They don't really help.

No, you still need basic nutrition. You could've been the happiest pirate sailing the high seas, but happy or not, most of them had scurvy from lack of vitamin C. A really optimistic & content young man in victorian England might feel happy with what the has, but if his job was to work in the mines through all daylight hours, he's sure to get rickets from lack of Vit D. The basic rules of nutrition apply to everyone.

Lots of junk foods are "fortified". "Basic nutrition" also comes in the form of a pill these days. People can keep themselves alive these days in many ways. Are they really healthy? Are they really living?

But most body builders also eat a high meat diet, which is strongly linked to high blood pressure. Salt intake is also a risk factor, which people overdo and not realize.

There are studies which claim the exact opposite. There are studies which have proven low carb high meat/fat diets in no way adversely affect cardiovascular health. No one has come up with a real answer yet.

For example, look at some of the extremist religions. The parents deny their kids basic things such as blood transfusions because the parents "love" the child and believe it'll earn the child a better place in heaven. What it ends up doing is killing, should Junior get in a car accident and lose a lot of blood.

I really try not to judge other people's choices, but it is clear that many people who believe they are acting in love simply aren't. Manipulation, fear, control are all things people like to label as love. In the end, real love does no harm so I'd have to say that the people in the above example are acting outside the boundaries of love.

I don't know. To some people, the path of least resistance is apathy and sloth. These are the people who don't want to try doing anything for fear of failing, claiming they just want to 'go with the flow'. Simply existing without taking an active role in one's own health and happiness seems like it could fail.

See, I'm someone who thinks it is absolutely okay for someone to lay around all the time if that brings them joy. Follow your bliss!

You seem to be saying if one has a great outlook, health will follow.

Absolutely not. Denial gets no one anywhere. I'm saying we should change our focus from fixing perceived outer problems and start from the inside out.

[alexplatups]

it's nice when you have different concepts about internal work and such,
but the objective reality is this: to create permanent fat loss you have to
burn more calories during the day than you consume from your food sources
and beverages.

Our bodies are very efficient, and it is easy to consume 500 more calories per
day than our body can burn (one ice cream is enough)

multiply this 500 x 7 days = 1 pound of body fat (3500 calories), this means
that during a year if this pattern is continued 52 pounds of body fat is
guaranteed.

now to lose weight is a lot more difficult than gaining, because our bodies are
very efficient at storing body fat, but do not easily release the stored fat
from the fat cells. The reason is simple, body fat is a long term energy
source for our body, and to burn it off and create permanent fat loss takes
a lot of work,

...including inside (motivation) work, which includes knowing how to focus on
a future self of yourself, knowing how to objectively assess current reality,
and knowing how to take action and bring this vision into reality by taking
steps toward permanent fat loss and adjusting your approach the whole time
that you are walking down the path toward your major health goal
(permanent fat loss)

...and since it is much more concentrated at 9 calories per gram this means
that 30 pounds of body fat is over 100,000 calories (actually they are
Kilocalories, but that's another story) it takes a lot of work, especially cardio
to burn this many calories off, and to make sure your burn fat, instead of
losing 75% of the weight from water and muscle like most people that try
losing weight using low calorie and many fad diets

anyway here is an article about body fat, what it is, how it is stored, used, etc

Body Fat, How Body Fat is broken down, stored, and burned

this can really help to understand, because it will make you look at this
process from a different angle

[Angela]

Most people who have tried to lose weight know the "how." Burn more calories than you take in -- simple! Just do it!

And how many times have you heard people say, "I know, I know! I try so hard! I've tried every diet in the world, I go to the gym every day, I've been working SO HARD to lose this weight!"?

Maybe your response is, "Well, you're doing it wrong, or you're not doing it for long enough, or you think you're doing it but you're really not."

And to the stressed out would-be weight-loser, it occurs as more and better evidence that what she believes about herself is true -- she really is worthless, stupid, wrong, incapable, hopeless. And that evidence helps keep the weight on, which helps support the negative emotion, which helps....etc. etc. Downward Spiral City.

Look at our dear friend Erin Pavlina. (please excuse me for talking about you in front of your back, Erin.) She KNOWS that eating fewer and burning more calories will take the weight off. She's a smart, committed, aware person. And she has been trying and trying for some time, and not getting the results she wants. Same is true for Michelle -- she's smart, committed, aware. She's heard and read and taken advice and evaluated; she knows HOW to lose weight. So I think it would be fair to say that it's simple, but not necessarily easy, to lose the weight.

The knowing HOW -- the knowing of "objective truth" -- about anything doesn't really stand a chance when they're up against your unconscious commitments.

That's why I joyfully advocate examining your unconscious commitments, letting go of what you don't need anymore, getting the learnings from those old negative emotions, and moving forward with inspiring possibility. Live your heart's desire, and notice how easy it is, and how much fun, to create the results you want -- and, incidentally, how effortless it feels to eat fewer and burn more calories, without all the trying and stress.

I'm with our girl here. Start with the insides. Feel good on purpose. (hey, wait -- that's a good motto! )

[joelr]

Hmmm, "should" statements and bliss being equated to laying around or eating calorie dense food for pleasure.
I'd really like to lay around more and I REALLY want to eat pleasure foods every day. And above all I'd really like to feel a warm opiate buzz all the time ever since I took home an oxycodone script when I had a kidney stone.

But all these things will eventually cause the "should" to reverse itself becoming - "I shouldn't have done that". Shouldn't I should not do these things?

Do your diets actually fail to work or do you end up cheating too much?
What is making you so miserable while dieting? Sounds like a psychological food addiction type thing with the emotional pain you describe. I have that right now, I just tried to start a diet but found I need the stress reducing chemicals more than I thought right now.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's why I joyfully advocate examining your unconscious commitments, letting go of what you don't need anymore, getting the learnings from those old negative emotions, and moving forward with inspiring possibility. Live your heart's desire, and notice how easy it is, and how much fun, to create the results you want -- and, incidentally, how effortless it feels to eat fewer and burn more calories, without all the trying and stress.

it is true that you have to have a true desire to create a lean, healthy body,
but unconscious commitments, and all other things that have to do with that
part of ourselves, are not where we should waste our time looking.

instead it isto the person's advantage to look what is really important and
what truly matters to them in life, if being lean and healthy is not important
*nothing* will help in the long run....Period! End of Story!

and by the way it is not so easy to eat less and workout more, and the majority know nothing about observing current reality, and how to use it
to accomplish what is important

[Angela]

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...unconscious commitments, and all other things that have to do with that part of ourselves, are not where we should waste our time looking.

If you say so. I don't happen to think that bringing the unconscious to consciousness is a waste of time; I think it's fun, expansive, and really effective at getting results. But I don't think anyone *should* do it.

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by joelr

Hmmm, "should" statements and bliss being equated to laying around or eating calorie dense food for pleasure.
I'd really like to lay around more and I REALLY want to eat pleasure foods every day. And above all I'd really like to feel a warm opiate buzz all the time ever since I took home an oxycodone script when I had a kidney stone.

But all these things will eventually cause the "should" to reverse itself becoming - "I shouldn't have done that". Shouldn't I should not do these things?

Do your diets actually fail to work or do you end up cheating too much?
What is making you so miserable while dieting? Sounds like a psychological food addiction type thing with the emotional pain you describe. I have that right now, I just tried to start a diet but found I need the stress reducing chemicals more than I thought right now.

Everyone who does a drug, whether that drug be food or heroine is looking to experience a certain sensation - relief from pain, inner peace - anything better than misery. There is nothing wrong with wanting to experience that while searching for other healthier ways to do the same. I believe anyone who wants to lay around should do so and I don't think laying around will kill you anymore than forcing sport on someone who hates it will.

The diets feel like they go uphill. That is where they go wrong. I believe in ease, flow and ever increasing relief - not in pain, struggle and ever increasing pain and discomfort.

I have no doubt my extra pounds are related to past pain yet unresolved. But the way to lose these pounds is not to go against how I feel and force myself to work at something which feels unnatural and wrong. It is instead my job to resolve the remaining pain and naturally flow to a place of greater joy and love where I won't feel the need to self-medicate with excess food.

[Michelle]

it's nice when you have different concepts about internal work and such,
but the objective reality is this: to create permanent fat loss you have to
burn more calories during the day than you consume from your food sources
and beverages.

This may be well and true. For me the missing part of the puzzle is the joy. I want to lose weight and still feel good. I don't want dieting to make me miserable. I do not wish for my life to be an uphill battle, but a smooth ride on a sailboat. No one, and I mean, no one has yet offered a solution which actually work in PRACTICE. Theory is all well and good, but it is useless if the 95% of people for whom it matters most fail at applying it.

[Angela]

Have you read Martha Beck's ideas on feeling good and losing weight? Here's an article in which she talks about it -- it might not be specifically helpful, but it's nice to know someone is thinking this way, free of the whole traditional weight-loss industry approach.

Diet Advice - Martha Beck's 5-Step Plan to Lose Weight - Oprah.com

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Angela

Have you read Martha Beck's ideas on feeling good and losing weight? Here's an article in which she talks about it -- it might not be specifically helpful, but it's nice to know someone is thinking this way, free of the whole traditional weight-loss industry approach.

Diet Advice - Martha Beck's 5-Step Plan to Lose Weight - Oprah.com

The advice she gives resonates with me. "Relax it off". Makes perfect sense! Love it!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michelle

The advice she gives resonates with me. "Relax it off". Makes perfect sense! Love it!

That's going to drive the "Just Do It!" people crazy.

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's going to drive the "Just Do It!" people crazy.

Haha!

[alexplatups]

I read that article, and what she talks about is mostly BS, these kinds
of things sound good when you are reading it, but observing objective
reality is the most effective approach. I will use an example below, taking
into account a person for who it is important to have a lean, healthy body,
but they have not become aware of this true desire, completely as of yet

here is what reality is:

1) this person truly wants to create permanent fat loss (primary goal)

2) he/she can observe his/her current circumstances (for example, he/she
has 50 pounds of unwanted body fat, eats twice per day, a super large
breakfast and a super large dinner before hitting the sacks at night. He/she
eats mostly processed carbohydrates, and drinks cola. He/she does not do
any exercise, except walking to the computer in the morning and walking
to bed at night) just a short summary of current reality, obviously there are
many more details if a person has over 50 pounds of unwanted body fat

3) to create permanent fat loss this person will have to do something different
to start moving in the direction of his/her desire, and it will include those
things he/she does not like doing, but he/she will do them because creating
permanent fat loss is primary, and eating right and exercising is secondary!

In other words you eat right and exercise because being lean, and healthy is
more important to you then being comfortable (when you sit on your butt
and do not do anything, and consume more calories than your body burns)

Some people start to eat right, and exercise on a regular basis, and start to
like it, but this should never be confused with what motivates you to do it.
And this motivation comes from wanting an end result...the body of your
dreams...for example for a man about...10% body fat...and for a woman
about 15% body fat

anything else that is not in these *three* things is either concepts or some
kinds of beliefs that have nothing to do with objective reality, but only get in
the way and stop/block the person from seeing his/her true desire
(permanent fat loss).

If a person does not have the skill of viewing *objective* reality, he/she will
never be able to reach and maintain long term results, simply because he/she
will not be able to adjust his/her apporoach the whole time while he/she is
moving toward his/her major health goal. Without knowing where you are in
the present moment it is very difficult to choose your steps in the direction
where you want to go.

Current reality is the only place where we can work on creating a lean,
healthy body and reaching our ideal weight, there are no tricks to this. You
either take action and burn unwanted body fat using the most effective
approach for yourself, or you walk around with this unwanted body fat
forever. And for endomorph dominant body types dieting alone will most likely
never work, and will lead to a loss of 50% muscle, 25% water and only about
25% body fat during the diet.

and when you go off your diet this weight wil come right back, and about ten
more pounds on top, because of the muscle loss and a slow down in your
metabolism. So while it is nice to want to lose body fat by relaxing it off,
this is a desire that does not go very well with objective reality, but instead
lies in the area of subjective reality, and living in an illusion that is not based
on any kinds of facts, but simply on a desire to have a result (which is
primary) without taking secondary steps to bring it into reality!

The biggest problem is that people do not want to eat the little amount of
healthy foods that their bodies can realistically burn during the day, and do
not want to exercise. Without vision and the skill to look where you are in the
present moment, creating a lean, healthy body, or any long term result will
be almost impossible.

The reason is simple, we as humans simply do not like doing certain things,
and if we do not become aware of primary goals and secondary actions,
we can't create long term results. This is very simple to understand, but
not so easy to do!

[Michelle]

1) this person truly wants to create permanent fat loss (primary goal)

This is not the primary goal. A person wants to lose weight for a reason. They may say it is to look better, be healthier, whatever - but in the end they want to feel good about and in themselves and believe that losing weight will help them to feel that way. For that reason, the primary goal is actually:

feeling good about one's self.

Since your number one point is off, I am assuming the rest is, too.

[James81]

Oh, diet and exercise is definately the answer. More exercise than diet (if you are wanting to lose weight) though. Face it, you're going to have to exercise (and I mean exercise to the point where you are actually sweating....or to put it in better terms, getting within your aerobic heartrate--that is 180-your age) if you want to lose weight.

But at the top of the list is your list of beliefs. If you don't tackle them and change them one by one, you aren't going to get the results you desire from diet and exercise. This game is like 50% beliefs, 50% putting your ass in gear and doing something. (as is most anything in life, now that I think about it)

So in a way you are right....you must first tend to your beliefs if you want to see measurable, permanent change. But don't just discredit diet and exercise so easily either. Both are equally important.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Michelle

Everyone who does a drug, whether that drug be food or heroine is looking to experience a certain sensation - relief from pain, inner peace - anything better than misery. There is nothing wrong with wanting to experience that while searching for other healthier ways to do the same. I believe anyone who wants to lay around should do so and I don't think laying around will kill you anymore than forcing sport on someone who hates it will.

Hmmm, I don't know. I did that with oxy for 6 months after a horrible divorce and nothing else helped. Looking back I'm just not sure it was the right choice. But yes, I do agree somewhat, it's better than misery. I may just be somewhat brainwashed after hearing so many people now say - "wrong choice!".

I think the trick is to get weight loss to be the drug. Once I start seeing fat loss I start getting to a place where I feel like the most important thing in life is to get lean. Like everything will be perfect once I reach my goal.
Of course it's not true but it serves it's purpose.

I can say that when I finish a diet I always feel very satisfied, much more so than if I skip it. I always think - "wow this is great! Why was I resisting this? This is so much better than being able to eat fun food.

But I did skip this year so I know it's not easy. One thing I'm not doing though is worrying about it. Since I skipped it I'm not going to judge it or even think about it. That would be useless stress. It's good to talk on the subject but don't stress out, it's not worth it.

Although my opinion is not a factor, I've always thought curvy, full figured women are more attractive than skinny minnies.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Michelle

This is not the primary goal. A person wants to lose weight for a reason. They may say it is to look better, be healthier, whatever - but in the end they want to feel good about and in themselves and believe that losing weight will help them to feel that way. For that reason, the primary goal is actually:

feeling good about one's self.

Since your number one point is off, I am assuming the rest is, too.

first of all, you know what the saying is about assuming? and second of all,
even if for some reason your primary objective is feeling good about yourself,
then creating permanent fat loss would become your secondary objective and
the rest of the steps would still be effective at producing a lean, healthy body,
you would simply never accomplish the primary goal of feeling good about
yourself, and would probably gain the weight back since it did not make you
happy, because this type of thing is not what could make us happy in the long run

this is the major problem with this approach: trying to feel good about oneself
is not a result that can be achieved in real life by everyone, not in the long
term at least, it is something that is not objective and is completely based
on your personal opinion. No matter what you do, or what you accomplish in
life, you might never feel good about yourself.

Some people are 150 pounds over weight and feel good about themselves,
and some have a body that is perfect and feel miserable, so if your primary
goal is to feel good, you will have a long wait, especially if you do not feel
good about yourself right now

feeling good about yourself is not a true desire, it is a compensation, and a
problem solving approach: In other words, you feel bad, and to find a solution
to this bad feeling, by trying to do something that will make you feel good

but the problem is that this feeling bad might be in the realm of the
unknowable, and you might never discover why you *really* feel bad

this is why it is to anyone's advantage to look at what they do in life, from
a different view point: From a viewpoint of what they want to create, and
accomplish in their life, in other words bring into reality end results that can
be objectively measured in some way. Because if you approach your life from
the viewpoint of trying to find a way to feel good, you will never reach this
end result, and will never be able to sustain it

the most important reason is simple: our feelings are in a way separate from
our *life spirit* which can be looked at as our real self, and these feelings
are not under our control, they just simply come and go, one day you feel
good and do not know why (maybe even while the world is falling apart
around you) and another day you feel really bad (even though everything
in your life is just perfectly ideal)

this is why when your primary objective (main goal, main target, main end
result that you may want to create) is something that can be measured
and when created you can say that you have brought this result completely
into reality, you can live your life creating those things that matter to you
and that are important, and your life will be built around your true desires,
but when you try to live your life by trying to find something that makes you
feel good about yourself it is a little like looking for the magic key that
will open the doors and bring you hapinness, satisfaction, and some type of
victory when you finally find it and open the door with it, behind which this
*feel god about yourself* is waiting for you.

The problem with this approach is that is an illusion, no such things exists.
There is no magic key, all we have and can realistically do in life is discover
our true desires, by being completely honest with ourselfves, and becoming
aware of what is really important to us, and what we value the most, and
obvioulsy what are our highest aspirations. Because your highest aspirations
and deepest values are your truest desires, and when you do built your life
around them you will feel something is missing in your life

the fact is that you might feel bad about yourself almost every day of your
life, and will never know why, so it makes no sense to waste even a minute
going down a road where you do not have the slightest of finding this magic
key that simply does not exist

and why it is more effective to simply focus on creating goals that you can
focus on and that are *real* and can be accomplished in the objective
reality that we all live in

[Dimond]

No one should ever be on a diet. Instead make a permanent lifestyle change of healthier habits. My raw diet, natural healing, etc. is a lifestyle for me that I enjoy. Before when I tried various healthy habits, I kept changing it around and it was okay. But now it's fun and a part of who I am. So just figure out which habits you want to improve upon or change and gradually incorporate it into your life. As with anything in life there are always many factors working together that affect your health-work, relationships, spirituality, stress, etc. It's not always possible to focus on everything at once, so just take 1-2 areas at a time. Many people, like Steve, have found the raw diet to positively improve every other area of life. Sometimes all it takes it that one thing that you change that works. If not, then you try something else. Always listen to your intuition and pay attention to how you feel physically to get clues.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Michelle

Absolutely not. Denial gets no one anywhere. I'm saying we should change our focus from fixing perceived outer problems and start from the inside out.

That's a breath of fresh air. Love your clarity, Michelle!

My body will change with exercise or mood. At times in my life where I am exploring new territory/adventures and feeling really excited to be alive, I drop weight without changes in diet or exercise. (((ease)))) The reverse happens when I feel an emotional withholding.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Dimond

No one should ever be on a diet. Instead make a permanent lifestyle change of healthier habits. My raw diet, natural healing, etc. is a lifestyle for me that I enjoy. Before when I tried various healthy habits, I kept changing it around and it was okay. But now it's fun and a part of who I am. So just figure out which habits you want to improve upon or change and gradually incorporate it into your life. As with anything in life there are always many factors working together that affect your health-work, relationships, spirituality, stress, etc. It's not always possible to focus on everything at once, so just take 1-2 areas at a time. Many people, like Steve, have found the raw diet to positively improve every other area of life. Sometimes all it takes it that one thing that you change that works. If not, then you try something else. Always listen to your intuition and pay attention to how you feel physically to get clues.

This is really great advice Dimond! But I have noticed that the majority of
people that try to change their habits do not know how to effectively move
from an oscillating pattern in their life to one that advances and produces
irreversible, long term success. Instead of using the circumstances (factors)
in their lifes as forces that can help them to create new life-long habits,
they simply start to fight, try to control, or even ignore these circumstances,
when in reality they are simply part of our every day life and we can learn to
work with them so that they help us to advance toward our goals.

The conflict that is in our mind is something people want to get control off,
and waste a lot of time in their life attempting to do this, when in reality it
is not under our control, it somehow has a life of its own, and if people stop
trying to control it, maybe they could then start to become aware of the
inner intuition that you mention and this could help them better focus on
the current circumstances in their lives, and use them as the starting
point from which they could work on new habits that work for them in the
long term, and bring them the end results that they truly desire

because what is a fact is that we can take steps toward creating that
*something* that is really important and that truly matters to us only
in the present moment, we can't go back into the past and change anything
and we can't go in the future and do something there, here and now is the
only place that we can *objectively* change our reality from what it is now
to what we want it to be in the near future. There are no tricks to this, and
from my experience it seems the majority of people that do not create long
term results do not understand that this is really how we create our realities

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by James81

But at the top of the list is your list of beliefs. If you don't tackle them and change them one by one, you aren't going to get the results you desire from diet and exercise. This game is like 50% beliefs, 50% putting your ass in gear and doing something. (as is most anything in life, now that I think about it)

So in a way you are right....you must first tend to your beliefs if you want to see measurable, permanent change. But don't just discredit diet and exercise so easily either. Both are equally important.

This is the truth as I understand it to be.

I'm in no way discrediting diet and exercise, but I think they need a more integrated place in the scheme of things as opposed to being viewed as the one true answer. They can absolutely be part of the health/weight loss answer for some people who are in that place. Fact is though, sometimes changing one belief can make the difference between seemingly effortless weight loss and weight loss which seems as difficult as climbing Everest.

For example, cortisol is a hormone shown to increase the body's tendency to hold fat particularly around the middle. Someone who feels unsafe will have natural tendency to produce more of this hormone. Working on feeling safer and therefore more relaxed, joyful and at ease in the world will automatically affect one's physical chemical composition which can have a direct affect upon how much weight the body naturally holds on to or not. Someone who feels safer may also feel naturally more inspired to spend more time outdoors (as opposed to hiding behind a desk or inside all day), may feel inclined to taking more fun "risks" such as riding their bike to work or trying water skiing, and someone who feels safer will have less tendency to self-medicate with sweets or fats.

So, you nay-sayers tell me: what is more effective in the long run? Forcing yourself self day in and day out to bang your head against a brick wall hoping to get to a place of joy and ultimately quitting from exhaustion? OR getting to the place of joy internally and having the physical manifestations of that joy slide naturally into your reality?