Veg/Vegan and changing the world

[funchy]

Originally Posted by jeff3

There are lots of different possibilities for solutions besides the either/or solution the extremists in this argument are offering.

What solution do you propose?

All the irrational/emotional fears will have to be set aside and that would mean looking at the progress that has been made in the agri-industry as well as the problems.

Can you cite some of this progress?

The "progress" I'm seeing is the spread of factory farming being the norm. Size of farms goes up while little family farms diminish. Use of antibiotics in farming continues at high rates, and the number of antibiotic resistant microbes is growing. Bovine Growth Hormone and steroids are the norm in meat. Chicken is being given arsenic-laced feed. It's in the meat you eat, and it's in the runoff. They're even finding drug contaminants from farm manure being absorbed by crops (even organic crops), so even produce isn't always free of drug contamination. I am not making this stuff up!

Environmentally we're seeing more exemptions being created for the livestock industry, as more people notice and show concern for the blight they bring. In my state for example, this year a law was just passed to block citizens right to sue a factory farm for pollution/smell/discharge problems. Federally livestock farming remains exempt from the Clean Air Act. Additionally, the federal government passed a law making it a felony to quietly protest animal abuse if the industry in question loses any money as a result. Those who stand up are written off as "ecoterrorists" and added to the FBI database along side middle-eastern suicide bombers. Average people who just want the right to have clean and and water are being marginalized and treated as criminals.

It would also mean looking at the fact that not everyone would thrive on a veggie diet.

There are happy healthy vegan athletes, weight-lifters, scientists, and average people. Seems like the only limiting factor is whether a person believes they can do it or not.

If you can provide me with an explanation on why everyone can't thrive on a veggie diet, I am all ears. I have been unable to find proof of this, other than a few unscientific personal anecdotes. Logically it does not make sense. I don't know of any other species of animals that needs such extremely specialized diets for every individual animal.

The real issue with many people is that they are just simply against eating meat because of personal issues with killing animals and this emotional based position polarizes them in a way that blinds them to everything thing except the negatives.

Some people love the taste of meat and are also polarized, so they're blind to all the baggage that comes along with a meat diet.

I don't have a problem with killing animals that need to be killed. I work at an animal shelter, and I'm the badguy there who has to order the euthanasias. But what we're taking about isn't killing an animal. It's about cramming 10,000 birds in a dark shed to inhale their own ammonia, keep them alive enough with antibiotics long enough to make it to slaughter, butcher these weak/sick animals & give the meat to people to eat, and spread all the rest of the waste out in the open environment. Keep in mind you are what you eat. Can eating sick animals really give you health?

It really shows what the motive is when there is no mention of compromise and all I read is about is the evil Ranchers and the government conspiracy to help them rape the earth for $$$.

To be fair, you're not offering a compromise either.

I suppose each argument has at it's heart two diametrically opposed ideas and that's what I see here, I'm sort of in the middle, I personally know people way out on the right and then I read several persistent posters here who are way on the left.

The left of what?

I don't see myself as an extremist. The extremists are those who want to ban pet ownership, have all domesticated animals go extinct, and isolate us from all contact with animals. I see myself as someone who just woke up one day and asked myself why we do all this if none of it is necessary? It's such a waste.

The extremes cannot co-exist and likely cannot even see the others point, even when well made, because of their polarized minds.

I think you're being unfair. I was raised to eat meat, and I'm flooded with messages each day perpetuating the meat culture. I get to hear how great meat is from everyone I meet, from TV, from outdated health books, Dairy Board happy cow ads, you name it.

I see the others' point all too well. I see as their manure runs off and closes beaches I personally visit in the summer. I see their point when fishkills and deadzones empty large areas of my Chesapeake Bay of life. Excessive fertilizer use. A serious source of methane. Groundwater & ponds contaminated with antibiotics & farm run-off. E Coli on veggies or in drinking water. These are real-world facts. I live in farm country, and I see it every day. I'm happy to point people to the news stories and studies, but if you're in denial that it's 'no big deal', then there's no point.

[24evita]

I have a quote to share with you all that perhaps may give some of us something to think about where this discussion is concerned:

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution of the vegetarian diet"

Albert Einstein

I know people wonder how much difference does it really make, while others fight to keep eating meat and animal products at any cost. And while all this is fair, as we are all entitled to our own opinions, the future of the earth, our health and evolution may make the decision for us, no matter what anyone says here today. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

I personally have never felt better eating only plant-foods. It is almost as if overnight everything in my life got better and it has since been an amazing 2 years

[jeff3]

Originally Posted by funchy

What solution do you propose?



Can you cite some of this progress?


What I have personally seen is an increased awareness of all the issues you mentioned and a response. It may not be the response you want but I have seen great improvements in the way animals are treated, the use of drugs and pollution issues. These are things I've seen, not just read about or "googled". Admittedly, my sphere of activity does not include all facets of the industry, nor the entire country, but I have spoke with many farmers and middlemen and they are aware of the issues and make visible efforts to correct problems.

This has been done to death in other threads, but.....anyway, the agri industry in the US outgrew itself when our population took off and freezing meat became possible. We grew way too fast and unregulated, many mistakes and outright deplorable conditions resulted from the strictly profit driven market. Most of those old grainy atrocious PETA films are from the '70s when things were terrible attest to that fact. As more conscious people have been placed in lower management of these businesses things have slowly improved. You and I are obviously not looking in the same places because I see improvements occurring. Do bad things still happen? sure. Do waste lagoons still break or leak? sure. But what you are not reporting (because it doesn't support your agenda) is how many lagoons don't leak or break, how many healthy animals there are, how many farms like mine their are who don't pump water and use non tillable land as pasture....ect.... The ratio of good to bad is never mentioned, only the things that support the anti-meat campaign, of course this is natural to only present evidence for one side of a case...jus don't pretend their isn't another side. It just doesn't make the news because it's not newsworthy.




There are happy healthy vegan athletes, weight-lifters, scientists, and average people. Seems like the only limiting factor is whether a person believes they can do it or not.

I think that is a beautiful statement...it could equally be prefaced with, "There is a way to solve this so the people who want to eat meat can and those of us who don't , won't."

If you can provide me with an explanation on why everyone can't thrive on a veggie diet, I am all ears. I have been unable to find proof of this, other than a few unscientific personal anecdotes. Logically it does not make sense. I don't know of any other species of animals that needs such extremely specialized diets for every individual animal.


I don't want to eat a vegetarian diet. Next everyone will be saying "step away from the veggies, a little sun-gazing is all you need"

Seriously, I didn't even look it up because I know, statistically, it is very improbable that 'everyone' would thrive on a V diet.


Some people love the taste of meat and are also polarized, so they're blind to all the baggage that comes along with a meat diet.

That is true, but as awareness increases people are getting the message that moderation is important.

I don't have a problem with killing animals that need to be killed. I work at an animal shelter, and I'm the badguy there who has to order the euthanasias. But what we're taking about isn't killing an animal. It's about cramming 10,000 birds in a dark shed to inhale their own ammonia, keep them alive enough with antibiotics long enough to make it to slaughter, butcher these weak/sick animals & give the meat to people to eat, and spread all the rest of the waste out in the open environment. Keep in mind you are what you eat. Can eating sick animals really give you health?

It's in the farmers interest to keep animals healthy and generally they do. Tell me where you have personally seen 10,000 birds in a "shed" . We did actually raise 100's of thousands of laying hens when I was young but I don't really remember much about it as I was tiny. I do know that my cattle are healthier than a lot of peoples children are, probably given more attention too. They bring more money when they are clean and healthy, all the way to the last stage of the game. The sick and diseased animals exist, just like they do in our population, but, they are in the minority, especially beef cattle.

To be fair, you're not offering a compromise either.



The left of what?

I don't see myself as an extremist. The extremists are those who want to ban pet ownership, have all domesticated animals go extinct, and isolate us from all contact with animals. I see myself as someone who just woke up one day and asked myself why we do all this if none of it is necessary? It's such a waste.

I see your position as extreme mainly because you desire to impose your will on others by eliminating choice. I think you do not have an accurate view of the overall state of things either. The fact that you work in a shelter puts you into close, constant contact with the sort of things that would naturally turn you that way. I worked in a hospital for 17 years and then just quit, my view of things changed dramatically when I realized half the world was not sick, just 90% of the people I interacted with were.

I think you're being unfair. I was raised to eat meat, and I'm flooded with messages each day perpetuating the meat culture. I get to hear how great meat is from everyone I meet, from TV, from outdated health books, Dairy Board happy cow ads, you name it.

I see the others' point all too well. I see as their manure runs off and closes beaches I personally visit in the summer. I see their point when fishkills and deadzones empty large areas of my Chesapeake Bay of life. Excessive fertilizer use. A serious source of methane. Groundwater & ponds contaminated with antibiotics & farm run-off. E Coli on veggies or in drinking water. These are real-world facts. I live in farm country, and I see it every day. I'm happy to point people to the news stories and studies, but if you're in denial that it's 'no big deal', then there's no point.

I guess you're not trying to be funny when you basically say "There is no other side to this, no good thing exist in the farming industry, it is all bad."
By making your point you actually proved mine.

[joylangtry]

I want to challenge you, Jeff3 and Scorpio1980, and anyone else sharing their opinions, to try eating no animal products for 30 days, and see how you feel. Just do it, and see what happens. I am willing to bet that most everyone who sincerely practices eating a well-rounded, nutritious plant-based diet, and makes it past 10 days, will feel so amazingly well by day 21 that they will not go back. At least not for any reason other than convenience or accessibility.

It's not easy, even though it is so simple.

For now, forget all the secondary reasons, the environment, the animals and everything else. Just do it for your own personal experience, and find out what happens.

The veg*ns with whom you argue have all mostly tried it your way with the notable exception of any lifelong veg*ns raised as such from birth. I'm not aware of any of them much over the age of Steve's & Erin's kids. Most people in American society are raised omnivore (I think we can accept that as a given). So, they have experience from your perspective, yet you have none from our (veg*n) perspective. So, try it, then carry on with your debate.

Furthermore:

Think about advertising and cigarettes and alcohol. Depending on one's age and/or interest in TV ads going back into the 50's, you may recall that cigarettes and alcohol were pretty heavily promoted on TV for years. In much the same way we have and continue to see meat and dairy products promoted in our culture.

After these ads were banned, it eventually became common to promote the opposite, warning of the dangers of tobacco & alcohol use. By now it is generally unstylish to smoke cigarettes and I even see here a movement building toward an alcohol-free lifestyle. It is now considered common knowledge that these things are harmful, or at least very potentially harmful.

My point? When you argue in favor of the meat-loving status quo, unless you have the specific experience with the alternative, you have no credibility. You are just repeating all the socially conditioned blather that you've learned, that helps you ignore the reality of what you are feeding yourself, and therefore, what you really are at the physical level. Have you ever meditated upon the raw ingredients you are making your body out of; the stuff making up all the new cells that are you?

Jeff3, if you earn your livelihood by raising cattle, then of course you feel threatened by all this. If you have happy cows, great. At least while they live, they are escaping the experience of the least fortunate livestock. I can actually relate to this - I ate beef from my husband's cousin's farm up until 2 years ago, and thought it was wonderful. But, honestly, the prolonged experience of not eating any dead animal is more wonderful, and you must experience it to understand.

[24evita]

Originally Posted by joylangtry

Think about advertising and cigarettes and alcohol. Depending on one's age and/or interest in TV ads going back into the 50's, you may recall that cigarettes and alcohol were pretty heavily promoted on TV for years. In much the same way we have and continue to see meat and dairy products promoted in our culture.

After these ads were banned, it eventually became common to promote the opposite, warning of the dangers of tobacco & alcohol use. By now it is generally unstylish to smoke cigarettes and I even see here a movement building toward an alcohol-free lifestyle. It is now considered common knowledge that these things are harmful, or at least very potentially harmful.

Joy, this piece and your whole comment is very rational and said with a lot of logic. I completely agree, today we have been so brainwashed into saying what we are lead to believe to say.

Most people don't even realize that vegetarianism was promoted especially around the 1800 and 1900's until about the 1950's at which time 2 things happened, we got a basic hold on protein, vitamins and minerals and thought one could only survive on animal products to have these, and so the meat and dairy industry began their push and the second thing that happened is factory farming began. So most people between 30 and 60 today cannot fathom any other way.

But we simply need to step out of the box and try it as you said for oursevles. It is not that crazy, on top of all of that, the benefits really are impressive.

At the end of the day it is not about what any study or person says. It is I believe about consulting our own conscience and not being afraid to look at things in a new light.

[scorpio1980]

Originally Posted by joylangtry

I want to challenge you, Jeff3 and Scorpio1980, and anyone else sharing their opinions, to try eating no animal products for 30 days, and see how you feel. Just do it, and see what happens. I am willing to bet that most everyone who sincerely practices eating a well-rounded, nutritious plant-based diet, and makes it past 10 days, will feel so amazingly well by day 21 that they will not go back. At least not for any reason other than convenience or accessibility.

It's not easy, even though it is so simple.

For now, forget all the secondary reasons, the environment, the animals and everything else. Just do it for your own personal experience, and find out what happens.

The veg*ns with whom you argue have all mostly tried it your way with the notable exception of any lifelong veg*ns raised as such from birth. I'm not aware of any of them much over the age of Steve's & Erin's kids. Most people in American society are raised omnivore (I think we can accept that as a given). So, they have experience from your perspective, yet you have none from our (veg*n) perspective. So, try it, then carry on with your debate.

Furthermore:

Think about advertising and cigarettes and alcohol. Depending on one's age and/or interest in TV ads going back into the 50's, you may recall that cigarettes and alcohol were pretty heavily promoted on TV for years. In much the same way we have and continue to see meat and dairy products promoted in our culture.

After these ads were banned, it eventually became common to promote the opposite, warning of the dangers of tobacco & alcohol use. By now it is generally unstylish to smoke cigarettes and I even see here a movement building toward an alcohol-free lifestyle. It is now considered common knowledge that these things are harmful, or at least very potentially harmful.

My point? When you argue in favor of the meat-loving status quo, unless you have the specific experience with the alternative, you have no credibility. You are just repeating all the socially conditioned blather that you've learned, that helps you ignore the reality of what you are feeding yourself, and therefore, what you really are. Have you ever meditated upon the raw ingredients you are making your body out of; the stuff making up all the new cells that are you?

Jeff3, if you earn your livelihood by raising cattle, then of course you feel threatened by all this. If you have happy cows, great. At least while they live, they are escaping the experience of the least fortunate livestock. I can actually relate to this - I ate beef from my husband's cousin's farm up until 2 years ago, and thought it was wonderful. But, honestly, the prolonged experience of not eating any dead animal is more wonderful, and you must experience it to understand.

Why do you just automatically assume just because I speak against the argument of an all vegan world I must have no experience with it? Since you never asked let me inform you. I was a veggie for almost 9 months, I did vegan for 3, and I tried raw for 30days. I always speak against something only when I have experience with it. Perhaps you do great on these types of diets as well as your vegan friends, but I didn't. I hated how weak, and unsatisfied I felt. Yes I did it the right way, I recieved all the correct nutrition for the most part. I started doing veggie, because my cholesterol was bad, I had high blood pressure, low energy, etc. After 6 months on being veggie my blood work had gotten worse, and I didn't feel anymore energetic. I then tried vegan, and raw for a stint, trying to improve things since my dad died at 46 from heart issues, and now i'm in my late 20s. The vegan diet made me feel worse, I had no energy, my blood work got worse yet again, and now I was having signs of early diabetes. When I was vegan I consumed a"proper vegan diet". I ate lots of veggies,some fruit, hemp seeds, beans,walnuts, almonds, rice, olive oil, and so forth. I got tired of my blood work getting worse, and tired of feeling tired, and just not healthy everyday even though I was eating supposedly healthy. Long story made short I basically said this whole trying to eat veggie,and vegan wasn't seeming to make me healthier yet it actually made me feel, look, and my blood work worse. I slowly started to add eggs, and fish back to my diet, and I felt great. I now eat a very healthy omnivoire diet. I eat eggs, beef,chicken, fish, raw milk when I can get it, etc. I also consume very, very limited grains,and I mostly eat very little carbs, except sometimes I indulge in cereal like kashi. My diet is usually high in fats, low in carbs, and moderate protein. I consume a large salad with lunch and dinner, drowned in olive oil with sliced up steak or chicken or fish usually in the salad. Eggs, cup of berries, and some other fruit for breakfast. My blood work has never been better. As a vegan my blood showed an average bp of 170/100,cholesterol was 230, and not to mention testosterone levels were low. Now as an omnivoire my bp is averaging 110/70 which is better than good, cholesterol was 190 with a very high HDL, and my test levels are normal again. The best part is I actually feel healthy again, and I feel whole. Adding animal food back into my diet was the best thing to do for my health that I ever did, besides upping the veggie content. So you asked me to try it for 30 days, and i've gone much further than that, and my health vanished. After everything I now know what the real culprit of bad health is, and what it isn't atleast for me. How about you vegan get off your high horse, and realize not everyone is exactly like you. How about realize that I'm not alone, and their are thousands of people that tried the veggie, and vegan lifestyle yet health issues became worse. I for one did not thrive on a vegan diet. Even though I had health issues related to the vegan diet, doesn't mean I go around here telling you vegans to wake up and eat animals because it's the best way to be healthy. If you are thriving on a plant based diet thats great, and i'm happy for you. Whats good for you isn't good for everyone. Tell an eskimo a vegan diet is good for him, infact he would probably get violently ill from lack of fat. To get the amount of fat in his diet that he thrives on you would litterally have to give him a diet of nuts, seeds, and oils which would lack alot of nutrition. The point is we all have different needs, and what does you well might not suit another as well. I do best on a whole organic diet of fresh meat, and plants, and thats what I will do for the rest of mylife. To force someone to eat a certain way is a dangerous thing to try, and depending on the person could make them very sick. Again the diet that works best for you doesn't mean it works best for me or anyone else. You can recite all the raw, and vegan gurus that you want, but all that proves is that they do good on the vegan diet as well. We have thousands of omnivoires who can claim the opposite. Not one thing is right for everyone.

[joylangtry]

OK, scorpio1980, I apologize for generalizing, and was clearly incorrect in your regard. I don't really believe that there are thousands trying a veg*n diet and failing, though. Most people who condemn it, in my experience, do so without any attempt to give it a serious try. But good for you that you did, and I am sorry that you did not obtain better results.

[scorpio1980]

Thank you Joy! My reply was not to ask for an apology, but to rather point out what we all seem to forget from time to time, and that is that we all aren't the same. I am happy that some people can thrive on a vegan diet, but just as many if not more will not thrive on a vegan diet. I believe we are best suited to eat whatever our recent ancestors ate. I agree people should not belittle what they have not tried themselves.I will say I get angry when people say eat this way, and all your problems will dissapear, and you will feel great. No, No, No...we have to find out what works best for us. I agree with most vegans in the belief that plant food is very important, but no, animal products have only improved my health, not taken health from me. I have tested the diet first hand, and nobody can tell me my results didn't happen. The real killers are fast food,trans fats, and man made stuff. Good luck to all, but please don't believe your diet to be the be all, and end all of good health for everyone, because it's not. I don't care what diet you partake in someone somewhere will thrive on it, yet at the same time someone somewhere will die from it.

[jeff3]

Originally Posted by joylangtry

I want to challenge you, Jeff3 and Scorpio1980, and anyone else sharing their opinions, to try eating no animal products for 30 days, and see how you feel.

I have actually considered doing that just for the sake of argument.

My point? When you argue in favor of the meat-loving status quo, unless you have the specific experience with the alternative, you have no credibility. You are just repeating all the socially conditioned blather that you've learned, that helps you ignore the reality of what you are feeding yourself, and therefore, what you really are at the physical level. Have you ever meditated upon the raw ingredients you are making your body out of; the stuff making up all the new cells that are you?

It's not accurate to say I have no credibility when arguing for meat, only if I made specific arguments against veganism would my credibility suffer, at least from a logical standpoint. I have yet to see any benefits I would personally derive from a vegan diet. I hear people say they feel wonderful and they feel this or that, but I know that I can say the same thing most of the time. I am healthier now than I was 10 years ago, and I eat meat 2-3 times a day. I can see that possibly a placebo effect could occur if I were to go to the lengths many have to go to to eat vegan. It's easy to see that by setting the intention to be healthier and then making sacrifices and additions to ones daily activities one could activate their own innate healing abilities and derive benefits. The thing is that I can do the same thing by simply "blessing my food" and decreeing that it is healthy. As long as I don't go against the established thought and eat poison or drink gasoline this seems to work OK.


Jeff3, if you earn your livelihood by raising cattle, then of course you feel threatened by all this. If you have happy cows, great. At least while they live, they are escaping the experience of the least fortunate livestock. I can actually relate to this - I ate beef from my husband's cousin's farm up until 2 years ago, and thought it was wonderful. But, honestly, the prolonged experience of not eating any dead animal is more wonderful, and you must experience it to understand.

I'm not threatened at all, I am very certain that I am doing exactly what I should be doing and as far as being financially threatened, that's not a concern either because it's just supplemental income and the anti-meat campaign hasn't amounted to a drop in the bucket as far as beef sales. As far as wonderful experiences go, I have my share. The fact that I feel no guilt nor feel that I am suffering spiritually or something by eating meat may be the reason I don't seem to have any hang-ups about it or feel that I am missing something.