the effects of complex carbs on strength training

[rocketman]

this question will come as very obvious to those here familiar with nutritional concepts, so please bare with my ignorance:

i recently made a simple switch in my diet, adding two servings of fruit per day, cutting out all junk food and most sugar, and switching from white bread to whole grain bread. except for the few added calories from the fruits, i have had no caloric increase nor have i increased my overall protein intake..

however, the effects in the gym have been near miraculous. obviously i have felt overall better during the day in terms of sleep/energy, but that was expected. however, my strength during weight training has literally exploded. i am quite perplexed by this and would like an explanation for this. i have been under the assumption that only protein and overall caloric intake contributes to muscle development. what are the complex carbs doing in my body to make me stronger?

[joelr]

Complex carbs increase protein synthesis so you absorb more protein and they are used for energy.
During the recovery phase your body will burn the carbs for energy which will spare more protein for muscle building.
Bodybuilders on a mass phase usually go about 60% carbs.

They also cause more intra-muscular water retention which gives an immediate strength boost and cause muscles to hold more glycogen.

Once a low carb diet starts I notice my muscles "deflate" from glycogen/water loss (this is different from the water retention under the skin).

Once your muscles are full try to maintain that state while adding muscle but don't go overboard with carbs. Once your carb stores are full the rest is used for energy and fat storage so you have to figure out how much you can eat before weight gain starts.
It's ok to gain a few lbs though, it's hard to gain muscle without a little bit of fat gain.

The initial gains will stay but further increase will taper off to normal (barring any androgen use)once you are carb loaded.

[ginkgo]

It has nothing to do with simple carbs and complex carbs. This is the Biggest Nutrition Myth Ever. See article. Fruit is a simple carb. It is about this. What animal kills the most Americans? Is it dogs, sharks, lions, bats, rats, spiders or elephants? It is man.

So if you feed yourself food made by man, it is designed to make you fat and sick. That is good business. Then they can sell you more food and drugs (medicine). But if you feed your self food made by God or nature, then that is good for your body. Brown rice has all these great nutrients in the bran and germ and man takes it out to make it rice. Rice is not a whole grain. It is an unholy grain. Brown rice is a whole grain and it grows in nature.

Sugar cane is loaded with nutrients and it prevents cavities. People who chew on it (sugar cane) do not get cavities. Man takes out all the nutrients to make it into sugar. Sugar has no nutrients. All those nutrients are now in the waste product blackstrap molasses that is sold in health food stores. See link below. What animal is destroying the planet with pollution and global warming? What animal is likely to steal your identity? What animal may try to rape your wife? In Philadelphia, everyday a person is murdered by another person. Now a dog may go put a gift on your sidewalk for you to step on. But he is the pet of a man.

In the M Night Shyamalin 1998 movie, The Happening, nature is killing man in self-defense. Then in the 2008 movie, The Day the Earth Stood Still, aliens decided to kill man since he was killing the earth. You are simply saying that a healthy diet is helping you much more than an unhealthy diet in strength training. That is great news. Bookmark this article so that lots of bodybuilders can learn this. It is not a matter of protein, carb or fat, but where they come from. You can get carbs from fruit or from jelly beans and chocolate cake.

[ginkgo]

Protein and calories do not contribute to muscular development. Drink too much water and you die. Drink too little and you die. Drink the right amount for optimum health. Too little protein or calories and you die. Too much and you die. Eat right amount for optimum development.

Some herbs contribute to muscular development like maca and Chinese yam. Carbs, protein and fat add up to 3 things. Plant foods contain thousands of phytochemicals. They have already identified over 900 of them like resveratrol and lycopene.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Protein and calories do not contribute to muscular development.

They do. I have done a pre-contest type diet every winter to get in shape for summer for over 10 years. In the fall I experiment with muscle building diets.

They are ABSOLUTELY essential to fat loss and muscle growth. By lowering protein I can see a drop in strength within a few weeks. Same with carbs.
It's next to impossible to gain mass without enough complex carbs.
Have you tested your theory? Let's see your before/after photos. I can show you mine.
How much mass have you put on without altering your caloric intake?

[ginkgo]

"It's next to impossible to gain mass without enough complex carbs."

Wow, hold on to your horses and calm down. [you are not using steroids, are you-- roid rage] Try to understand what I wrote. OK! I said that you need the right amount for optimum functioning. You are saying that if you do not get enough, then you suffer. Isn't that the same thing? I said that without enough of protein, carbs, fat or calories, you die. Don't you agree. Dead people do not have big muscles. "Enough is enough!"

Some people are confused about herbs and think that they are drugs. There are the medicinal herbs which are like drugs. But the superior ones are the food herbs. You can eat them like food. For example a Chinese restaurant puts goji berries in a dinner. With food herbs, the more you eat, the better. You do not need them to live, like carbs and protein, but they can help with different things. How tall is that Chinese basketball player, 7'8"?

I mentioned on another thread that bodybuilders burn a lot more calories, so they need extra. Without enough then the body needs to burn itself like when you are fasting. That is also mentioned under EXERCISE on my site on Losing Weight. That site has the latest research on fats that help you to lose body fat. Imagine that! Eating fat to lose fat. Some fats reduce size of fat cells and some fats reduce the number of fat cells.

[st33med]

I have to explain the Science again? *sigh*

Complex carbs are broken down further and further into ATP. These ATP molecules are our bodies basic "energy" molecule. Using this energy, ATP forms long chains of fat molecules for storage of energy.

Proteins are absolutely essential to our buildup of muscles. Without them, all the exercise is for naught, and our body slows down because of the lack of developed enzymes and folded protein molecules from amino acids.

Wow, hold on to your horses and calm down. [you are not using steroids, are you-- roid rage] Try to understand what I wrote.

Please, that does not contribute much to the argument and it is insulting. joelr was giving a calm rebuttal to your argument.

You are saying that if you do not get enough, then you suffer. Isn't that the same thing?

No. He was saying that protein contributes to muscle building.

[ginkgo]

Bodybuilders challenge others with a comparison of muscles (before and after pictures). Now martial artists will challenge others to a fight. "You are saying that fruit makes you a better fighter. OK then you and I will fight and see who is the better fighter." Steroids are still popular and have side effects. The governor of CA used them.

Now I guess this is a little insulting. It sounds like you are really impressed with yourself getting into AP biology. On that immunization site I quoted Andrew Weil, M.D. Before he got his MD from Harvard, he was a B.A. in biology. I thought that it should be a B.S. in biology, but I guess they have both.

So are you planning on becoming a biologist or a biology teacher? Maybe you should get your own website and put your different lessons on biology on it. Then you refer someone to that site and if they click on a Google ad, you make money.

I guess I need to explain Einstein's theory of relativity. When a car is not moving, it is travelling through time at the fastest rate possible. As it starts moving through space, its movement through time slows down. As it travels through space faster, it moves through time at a slower rate. Space is curved because gravity bends space.

[MightySunTzu]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]
Just wondering, how do any of these statements pertain to the discussion at hand as to whether:

Originally Posted by ginkgo

protein and calories do not contribute to muscle development.

?
1.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Bodybuilders challenge others with a comparison of muscles (before and after pictures).

2.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Now martial artists will challenge others to a fight. "You are saying that fruit makes you a better fighter.

3.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

OK then you and I will fight and see who is the better fighter."

4.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Steroids are still popular and have side effects.

5.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

The governor of CA used them.

6.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Now I guess this is a little insulting. It sounds like you are really impressed with yourself getting into AP biology.

7.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

On that immunization site I quoted Andrew Weil, M.D. Before he got his MD from Harvard, he was a B.A. in biology.

8.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

So are you planning on becoming a biologist or a biology teacher?

9.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Maybe you should get your own website and put your different lessons on biology on it. Then you refer someone to that site and if they click on a Google ad, you make money.

10.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I guess I need to explain Einstein's theory of relativity. When a car is not moving, it is travelling through time at the fastest rate possible. As it starts moving through space, its movement through time slows down. As it travels through space faster, it moves through time at a slower rate. Space is curved because gravity bends space.[/SIZE]

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Protein and calories do not contribute to muscular development.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

"It's next to impossible to gain mass without enough complex carbs."

Wow, hold on to your horses and calm down. [you are not using steroids, are you-- roid rage] Try to understand what I wrote. OK! I said that you need the right amount for optimum functioning. You are saying that if you do not get enough, then you suffer. Isn't that the same thing? I said that without enough of protein, carbs, fat or calories, you die. Don't you agree. Dead people do not have big muscles. "Enough is enough!"

Some people are confused about herbs and think that they are drugs. There are the medicinal herbs which are like drugs. But the superior ones are the food herbs. You can eat them like food. For example a Chinese restaurant puts goji berries in a dinner. With food herbs, the more you eat, the better. You do not need them to live, like carbs and protein, but they can help with different things. How tall is that Chinese basketball player, 7'8"?

I mentioned on another thread that bodybuilders burn a lot more calories, so they need extra. Without enough then the body needs to burn itself like when you are fasting. That is also mentioned under EXERCISE on my site on Losing Weight. That site has the latest research on fats that help you to lose body fat. Imagine that! Eating fat to lose fat. Some fats reduce size of fat cells and some fats reduce the number of fat cells.

Huh? err What??

Random. Too many herbs.

You are wrong about Einstein in your response to the other post. Gravity does not curve space, MASS curves space.
If you want to talk Relativity, cars and their movement through space/time, tell me, if I'm in a car traveling at 80% speed of light, what percentage would my clock be running at?


I mention pictures not to compare muscles but to express the point that you are sprouting all this conjecture but have probably never used it yourself to make any dramatic changes to your body.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]
Just wondering, how do any of these statements pertain to the discussion at hand as to whether: ?
1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

I guess I should have put a quote of st33 med. It was not about the issue at all. It was a response to what st33med said right before my post. He got off topic and I responded to what he said.

[mikemann1991]

By the way, congratulations, rocketman!

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by joelr

Huh? err What??

Random. Too many herbs.

You are wrong about Einstein in your response to the other post. Gravity does not curve space, MASS curves space.
If you want to talk Relativity, cars and their movement through space/time, tell me, if I'm in a car traveling at 80% speed of light, what percentage would my clock be running at?

I mention pictures not to compare muscles but to express the point that you are sprouting all this conjecture but have probably never used it yourself to make any dramatic changes to your body.

Sprouting conjecture? I have actually traveled at 80% speed of light. I have the equation to plug the numbers into to figure it out at any speed (velocity). At 100% the speed of light (which is impossible since mass would become infinite) the time movement is 0 or in other words, time stops. Mass creates the gravity that bends the space.

The point that I was originally trying to make was (another analogy) is that air does not contribute to muscle growth. It is not like if you hyperventilate, your muscles will grow quicker. But without enough air you would die and muscles do not grow on dead people. Or if you did not get enough air (oxygen), your muscles would probably not grow since your body would start dying. So yes get enough air but it does not contribute to muscle growth.

Sunlight can help your muscles grow or contribute to muscle growth. See thread about testosterone. You can test it out and get no sunlight (with no pre-vitamin D) while trying to build muscles. Then get lots of sunlight like the governor of CA did and see what happens. I have the governor's 700+ page book, Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Sprouting conjecture? I have actually traveled at 80% speed of light. I have the equation to plug the numbers into to figure it out at any speed (velocity). At 100% the speed of light (which is impossible since mass would become infinite) the time movement is 0 or in other words, time stops. Mass creates the gravity that bends the space.

The point that I was originally trying to make was (another analogy) is that air does not contribute to muscle growth. It is not like if you hyperventilate, your muscles will grow quicker. But without enough air you would die and muscles do not grow on dead people. Or if you did not get enough air (oxygen), your muscles would probably not grow since your body would start dying. So yes get enough air but it does not contribute to muscle growth.

Sunlight can help your muscles grow or contribute to muscle growth. See thread about testosterone. You can test it out and get no sunlight (with no pre-vitamin D) while trying to build muscles. Then get lots of sunlight like the governor of CA did and see what happens. I have the governor's 700+ page book, Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding.

That's almost right, not quite though. Mass creates the bend which is then called Gravity.
You say you have traveled at 535,680,000 miles per hour???? One half billion miles per hour....
On the Special Relativity question I have already calculated the answer. I too know the equation.

Arnold talks about tanning in his book in terms of contest prep. There is NO noticeable difference in terms of sunlight/muscle size. It is used in bodybuilding to LOOK better onstage. It may be advised to get enough vitamin D as part of a program to make sure your body is in full muscle building mode but it really doesn't account for Jack in the real world.
In that book Arnold's main message is train hard, train properly, rest, eat the right foods and eat lot's of it.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by joelr

That's almost right, not quite though. Mass creates the bend which is then called Gravity.
You say you have traveled at 535,680,000 miles per hour???? One half billion miles per hour....
On the Special Relativity question I have already calculated the answer. I too know the equation.

Arnold talks about tanning in his book in terms of contest prep. There is NO noticeable difference in terms of sunlight/muscle size. It is used in bodybuilding to LOOK better onstage. It may be advised to get enough vitamin D as part of a program to make sure your body is in full muscle building mode but it really doesn't account for Jack in the real world.
In that book Arnold's main message is train hard, train properly, rest, eat the right foods and eat lot's of it.

"Mass creates the bend which is then called Gravity." Yes, that is the most precise way of explaining it. I was using a media line that was created to attract readers. So you do know your physics. I am not someone that says something without explaining it. That is rude. Now if I said that I could fly like superman and can lift battleships into the air like him, I would not expect anyone to take me seriously. So you were referring to muscles when you said sprouting conjecture so I changed it into a joke. I like the miles per second speed of light better. So it is too outrageous to be serious to say that I traveled at 149,000 miles a second.

So I was trying to get you to lighten up by making a joke. I know that bodybuilders sunbathe so that their skin looks better.

But I quoted a raw vegan bodybuilder about what I was saying about it helping to build muscles even if bodybuilders do not notice it. "The 3rd edition of Raw Power! has been expanded to 224 pages (from 130). This new edition has sections on: A Word from the Author, Introduction to Raw Power!, Power of the Mind, The Raw-Food Diet, Minerals, Absorption, Assimilation, and Digestion, Exercise and Weight Training, Weight Loss, Sunshine, Meditation / Relaxation, Raw Bodybuilding Foods, Raw Bodybuilding Supplements...."

They probably just think that it is a coincidence that they sunbathe and their muscles respond great to exercise. That is why I said that you should try both ways. It is very obvious to me this effect that the sunbathing has on my muscles in response to training even if others have not put 2 and 2 together.

Actually a few times I have put 2 and 2 together when others have not. Maybe from fasting I am more attuned to my body and what is going on with it. Here is an example of putting 2 and 2 together:

According to the 500 page college textbook, Human Biology by Sylvia S Mader (1995) prostate cancer is very different than the other types of cancer. It says about prostate cancer "The disease is most common in northwestern Europe and North America. It is rare in the Near East, Africa, Central America, and South America. For reasons not currently known, African Americans have the highest incidence rate in the world."

Are you wondering why this is since it may affect you. It is because black skinned people need 4 times the sunlight as white skinned people to get the same amount of vitamin D. The prostate gland thrives on vitamin D from sunlight. In a magazine they wanted to see if there were certain things affecting prostate problems like pollution in certain parts of the country.

So they gave different colors to different percentages of people with these problems and then applied those colors to a map of the U.S. They found the color with the highest amount of problems went across the most northern part of the U.S. Then as they went further south the percentage of people with prostate problems became lower and lower. So they determined that this was due to the unique vitamin D from the sun.

As far as danger from sunbathing, make sure to wash off all those cancer causing chemicals that you sweated onto your skin from inside your body. They do not evaporate like the water. Even if you do not, it is still better on your skin than inside you. But the UV-C rays from the sun can completely destroy your skin so you must never, ever under any circumstances, go sunbathing ON THE MOON. All of the UV-C rays from the sun are completely destroyed in the earth's atmosphere. You see nature is not out to get you. It is you living in a way out of touch with nature and against what your body needs that causes these health problems. A study showed that vitamin D can cut chances of prostate cancer by 50%.

Too much vitamin D can kill you (see hypervitaminosa D). It is the most toxic vitamin. That is why foods have very little of it. But sunlight hitting the skin creates a pre-vitamin D that is not toxic. Men get breast cancer since they have a breast (but not breasts), but women do not get prostate cancer.

So if no one realized that sunlight made a big difference in a cancer that only men can get (like the people who wrote that college textbook mentioned above) then it is very possible for bodybuilders to not notice the big difference that sunlight makes in their muscle growth. Maybe not as much as steroids, but sunlight is healthy. Yes, steroids do contribute to muscle growth, but they are not legal in 12 states (another joke).

[FoxGarden]

I'm glad you noticed a benefit from adjusting your diet there. I think simply eating a healthier diet will give you the ability to increase muscle mass and overall body image.

I don't know the exact science behind it, and I'm not going to pretend I do, but I've noticed from personal experience that the better I eat, the more energy I have. Whether this energy applies to a mental state or a physical state (ie. working out) it's going to be there regardless.

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by FoxGarden

I'm glad you noticed a benefit from adjusting your diet there. I think simply eating a healthier diet will give you the ability to increase muscle mass and overall body image.

I don't know the exact science behind it, and I'm not going to pretend I do, but I've noticed from personal experience that the better I eat, the more energy I have. Whether this energy applies to a mental state or a physical state (ie. working out) it's going to be there regardless.

yeah, i did it to improve my mental state, but didn't expect the physical strength improvements

[James81]

I think people worry too much about this ****.

I just want to be healthy and strong. I really could care less about muscle mass and all that jazz.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

But I quoted a raw vegan bodybuilder about what I was saying about it helping to build muscles even if bodybuilders do not notice it.

They probably just think that it is a coincidence that they sunbathe and their muscles respond great to exercise. That is why I said that you should try both ways. It is very obvious to me this effect that the sunbathing has on my muscles in response to training even if others have not put 2 and 2 together.

then it is very possible for bodybuilders to not notice the big difference that sunlight makes in their muscle growth. Maybe not as much as steroids, but sunlight is healthy. Yes, steroids do contribute to muscle growth

See the problem with what you propose - (sunlight = significant difference to muscles) Unless you can take 2 twins, do exactly the same with both, except expose one to alot more sunlight than the other, there is no way you can prove what you are saying.


bodybuilders from sunny countries are no bigger than the ones from cold countries. Bodybuilders from the caribbean are no bigger than the ones from cold parts of the USA. In fact you will find bigger guys in the USA, than the caribbean. It could be argued that in the USA there is much more steroids and supplements. This just prove my point. These have been shown to give a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE.

Bodybuilders are always on the look out for the edge. Steroids has been shown to make a sig difference, higher protein has been shown to make significant difference, so has increase calories, creatine, glutamine WITH A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO TRY IT. But can you show one scientific study or even broscience that shows a significant increase in muscle mass over a short space of time that can only be attributed to sunlight and not to roids, creatine, water, or any other factor. Arnold use to train in Austria. Wen he came to Venice beach and trained in the outdoor sunshine, he does not in any of his books report seeing a difference in his muscle mass with the added sunshine. If it did beleive me, you will see many bodybuilders sunbathing.

I dont think sun makes a difference, I see people of equal size in countries or states with no sun vs states with sun. Californian bodybuilders are no bigger than the bodybuilders in New York. London is colder than spain, but do the spanish have bigger tanned bodybuilders? NO . Ask any bodybuilder, the most significant ingredient in bodybuilding is GENES. Then a synergy of protein and steroids. One without the other will seriously impede progress (with the exception of Paul dillet and flex wheller and a handful of the genetically gifted)

If you still believe the sunshine theory. How much extra muscle mass a month or even year can I expect to gain with sun light (all other variables being equal)? Pls tell me in pounds - and a web link to your source. You said you noticed on your self the difference. how much muscle mass did you acquire? Do you have before and after pictures. If you cut your protein and calories in half, but kept the sunshine will you still gain mass at the same rate? If you took away your sunshine, but kept protein and calories, will you gain or lose mass? Have you considered that the sun could be a placebo,or because it made you feel mentally/emotionally good you had a better workout. Like when people find they have more energy for activities on holidays

Originally Posted by James81

I think people worry too much about this ****.

I just want to be healthy and strong. I really could care less about muscle mass and all that jazz.

This is not a dig at you. Your post just brought certain thoughts to mind

Muscle mass is a side product of being strong. Unless you lift exclusively in singles( which is a sure fire way to get injured). Gymnasts are not concerned with muscle and yet have some of the best physiques in the world.

There is being strong and looking strong. Alot of guys want a physique worthy of mens health mag, and the strength as a byproduct. This takes a plan. desired physiques include Matthew McConaughy or Hugh Jackman in Wolverine, Daniel craig in Bond, Christian Bale in American Psycho.


healthy and strong are ambiguous goals. Strong enough to lift what? Healthy enough to live disease free for how long? Alot of healthy people are not strong, alot of strong people are not healthy. Most people could not without a shadow of a doubt tell you they are healthy or strong. Both probably because they dont have a definite weight they define as strong or a definite age or energy level they define as healthy. They conclude because I am healthier then I am healthy. Kind of like saying "I use to eat Big macs, fries and a milk shake , but now I eat bacon lettuce and tomato on white bread with mayo and a coffee. While this is healthier and you will be healthier from the reduced calories and salt and sugar, it still is not a healthy meal. Being annoyed is probable healthier than being eternally angry, but being annoyed aint healthy.

[fitx3]

I really like this thread! As a female fitness enthusiast, I have been learning so much from you guys. I'm taking little bits from here and there from all of you.

@Gingko, you pretty much have made me understand things clearly on why we should eat certain carbs and not others. You just explained it better to me than anyone else has so far. You make a great teacher when it comes to nutrition and would love to read more on what you have to say. I think the only thing that has people confused is your statement about protein and calories not contributing to muscular development. Even I know that's not true.

@joelr, I'd love to know more about your experimentation with muscle building diets. A short time ago I had a very thin but shapely body due to being the "cardio girl" on a low carb diet. Now that I strength train, I have WAY more definition and muscle tone and I LOVE the way I look now. I eat way more carbs but I realize the key IS finding BALANCE. I too have the pictures to prove it.

@rocketman, good luck to you. I have read 2 of your posts so far and I am picking up from you to be a young guy on the right track in a physical way and a decent one when it comes to certain morals.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Orecle

See the problem with what you propose - (sunlight = significant difference to muscles) Unless you can take 2 twins, do exactly the same with both, except expose one to alot more sunlight than the other, there is no way you can prove what you are saying.

I guess that Venice Beach is in Southern CA. Just in CA there is a big difference in available sunlight. As far as proving it, you cannot prove that a healthy diet is healthier unless you did what you proposed. It is only profitable enough to prove something when it comes to drugs. Vioxx was approved of by the FDA since it was proven to be safe. It was proven. That is why the FDA approved of it.

Also I was talking about myself and a guy who wrote a book on raw diet and bodybuilding about sunlight. Since the steroids are more powerful than the sunlight, there would be less difference or maybe hardly any. I said that the sunlight increases testosterone. At least I said that on the thread about testosterone and bodybuilding. That is how the sunlight works. But if the steroids are creating more testosterone or doing something similar, I do not know the combined effects. See thread on testosterone for more on this.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I guess that Venice Beach is in Southern CA. Just in CA there is a big difference in available sunlight. As far as proving it, you cannot prove that a healthy diet is healthier unless you did what you proposed. It is only profitable enough to prove something when it comes to drugs. Vioxx was approved of by the FDA since it was proven to be safe. It was proven. That is why the FDA approved of it.

Also I was talking about myself and a guy who wrote a book on raw diet and bodybuilding about sunlight. Since the steroids are more powerful than the sunlight, there would be less difference or maybe hardly any. I said that the sunlight increases testosterone. At least I said that on the thread about testosterone and bodybuilding. That is how the sunlight works. But if the steroids are creating more testosterone or doing something similar, I do not know the combined effects. See thread on testosterone for more on this.

How does sunlight increase testosterone? I do not need to try apples to know it is healthier than a burger. I have many others and numarace studies to show me that fruit is healthier than a burger. What do you think makes people try healthy diets? I will tell you. Its other peoples testimonies.

So how much sunlight should I have, and again how much increased muscle can i expect from this regime?

If you cant answer this, on what is your claims based? You saying try it for yourself, is of no use to me. There are too many variables to control for me to acknowledge its not just placebo

Since you are championing this method how much muscle did you put on? How long did this take?

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by fitx3

I really like this thread! As a female fitness enthusiast, I have been learning so much from you guys. I'm taking little bits from here and there from all of you.

@Gingko, you pretty much have made me understand things clearly on why we should eat certain carbs and not others. You just explained it better to me than anyone else has so far. You make a great teacher when it comes to nutrition and would love to read more on what you have to say. I think the only thing that has people confused is your statement about protein and calories not contributing to muscular development. Even I know that's not true.

I think that the problem is in defining 'contributing'. You need certain things for good health like protein, carbs, fats, vitamins, minerals, air for breathing and other things. Now if you define 'contribute' as all of the above things then why isolate 2 of them?. If they all contribute to muscle growth then I agree that all of them do. But 2 were picked as contributing and not the rest and that is where I disagree.

This is what I have been saying all along with the examples. Take fat. It is needed for lubrication of joints, brain and blood vessels. If your body fat drops before a certain level (like around 5%) then you die. Dead people cannot do bodybuiliding. So in that sense it contributes to muscle growth.

Too much of the above is bad for health. It is estimated that Americans eat 5 times the protein they need. Also the excess cabs and calories help make people obese and we have the highest amount of obese people ever. I kept stressing the word enough.

You need enough of all of the above including sleep but does that mean that they contribute or not? Try building muscles without enough sleep or enough vitamins and minerals. Without enough vitamin D, your bones become very weak. So are people saying sleep contributes to muscle building or not. If so then why was it left out?

It is like saying that for America to be financially sound, white people need to do their part. What about the non-white people? By saying one, you are excluding the others. The only thing wrong with that saying is the word 'white'.

So are people saying that all the above needed for good health contribute to muscle growth or not. By saying protein and not sleep, it is like saying white people instead of all Americans. Saying one excludes others. So it is all how you are defining contribute. Scientologists like Tom Cruise, Clint Eastwood, Will Smith and John Travolta say that most confusion comes from confusion on the meaning of a word. So we are dealing with 'enough' and 'contribute.'

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I think that the problem is in defining 'contributing'. You need certain things for good health like protein, carbs, fats, vitamins, minerals, air for breathing and other things. Now if you define 'contribute' as all of the above things then why isolate 2 of them?. If they all contribute to muscle growth then I agree that all of them do. But 2 were picked as contributing and not the rest and that is where I disagree.

This is what I have been saying all along with the examples. Take fat. It is needed for lubrication of joints, brain and blood vessels. If your body fat drops before a certain level (like around 5%) then you die. Dead people cannot do bodybuiliding. So in that sense it contributes to muscle growth.

our senses take in millions of bits of seperate info, however we do not/cannot consciously interpret and respond to all of these. We chunk. we respond to the significant info, delete the rest and act accordingly. When we are in the street we do not pay attention to all we see.

Some things are a significant contributor to muscle growth. while some things are a contributor to life. Going by your analogy, I can say since you need legs to walk to the gym, and the lights to be on in the gym, and maybe a vehicle to drive you there. Now we need a vehicle, lightbulbs and shoes for muscle growth.

Saying you need sleep for growth is pointless, as that is obvious. If you had said 8 hrs vs 4hrs, then we have a debate. Sleep is needed for life. or - let me throw in ' we need a bed for muscle growth'.

The debate is what significantly contributes to muscle growth. The type of muscle growth that makes people say 'How long have you been training, or How can I look like you. Sunlight, protein, calories and the like mean squat if you do not do resistance training or some sort of heavy lifting whether that be construction worket et al. on the other hand, training and under nutrition will significantly stunt your muscle growth very early. the vitamin factor is debatable as I take vitamins but am no bigger than others that rely on the little they get from food.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Too much of the above is bad for health. It is estimated that Americans eat 5 times the protein they need. Also the excess cabs and calories help make people obese and we have the highest amount of obese people ever. I kept stressing the word enough.

You need enough of all of the above including sleep but does that mean that they contribute or not? Try building muscles without enough sleep or enough vitamins and minerals. Without enough vitamin D, your bones become very weak. So are people saying sleep contributes to muscle building or not. If so then why was it left out?

The question is which vitamins can be omitted and muscle growth still occur at the same rate. Your sleep analogy cant be tested so there is no point including it. However your vitamin D claim can be. I personally bodybuild and I take multi vitamins, extra vit c, b-complex, zinc, magnesium. I personally know at least 12 competing professionals. Even though all take multi - vits. The only vitamin they all rave about is B-complex of vitamins, and they take these in injections, as well as vitamin C. If vitamin D comes from sunlight great. The problem with what you propose is you have no advice on the amount of sun needed, length of time of exposure, how much mass I can expect gain. Do i need to be in boxers?


Take all these 12 wk transformation. The reason they are so popular is the results can be seen. In pictures, on websites, in movies.
Creatine - the results were seen by many in 2 weeks. When i was adviced to up my protein, i saw the result in a wk. my strength went up for 3 mths straight. But you have no advice on the results one can see if one tries the sunlight

Originally Posted by ginkgo

It is like saying that for America to be financially sound, white people need to do their part. What about the non-white people? By saying one, you are excluding the others. The only thing wrong with that saying is the word 'white'.

So are people saying that all the above needed for good health contribute to muscle growth or not. By saying protein and not sleep, it is like saying white people instead of all Americans. Saying one excludes others. So it is all how you are defining contribute. Scientologists like Tom Cruise, Clint Eastwood, Will Smith and John Travolta say that most confusion comes from confusion on the meaning of a word. So we are dealing with 'enough' and 'contribute.

Since white people are the majority in America and by far the most affluent, if they didnt pull their weight, the American economy will most certainly drop like a lead baloon. This was a bad analogy to begin with. If non-whites didnt pull their weight the American economy will take a battering. Infact if non-americans (investors) didnt pull their weight, or pulled out their investments - the american economy will be fcuk. Again its about chunking, its about saying the significant bits. If someone asks you to relay a conversation, you dont relay it word for word. If you travelled the world we dont expect you to literally travel to every single spot on the world. If we ask for a report of your travels ' we do not expect a perfectly full sensory description of all you experienced.

Factors that are significantly (meaning you can tell the person weight trains)contribute to muscle growth are as follows - Protein, fats, (fats are not just for lubrication - they directly contribute to testosterone and they help digest protein) carbs for energy to lift in the first place and the body wil use protein for fuel instead of muscle if not enough carbs and fats is present.
steroids have also significantly contributed to muscle gain.

By the way, a diet or lifestyle for health and a dietfor muscle growth are not the same. they are not even similar. Many gym rats eat absolute crap, drink, smoke, weed, cocaine, eat fried chicken, burgers and still grow. The ones on alot of steroids are far from healthy but grow much more than the healthiest natural head.

WHY?

because the significant factors FOR MUSCLE GROWTH, NOT HEALTH are present

PROTEINS, CARBS, FATS, Weight lifting, and steroids for the super big

its like when people claim if you dont drink pure water for a set period, you will die. I never drank pure water for mths, I only had dilutables and fizzy drinks and I know many peeps who refuse to drink pure water. but they get the water mixed up in juice the water is still there.

Asking for a coca cola, does not exclude the water that is the base of the drink. Asking for any drink with out including the phrase "pls add water" will not exclude the water so thats a bad example when you say mentioning protein and not sleep, is excluding one. thats like saying asking for a coke, but not including a mention of the manufacterer of the coke is excluding the existance of the creator of the coke. the fact you are alive tells us you have and do regularly sleep, just as the existance of coke, shows there is a manufacterer

ps
No bodybuilder can grow to competition level on the amount of protein deemed healthy by the general public

[ginkgo]

"Going by your analogy, I can say since you need legs to walk to the gym, and the lights to be on in the gym, and maybe a vehicle to drive you there. Now we need a vehicle, lightbulbs and shoes for muscle growth."

This is not valid reasoning. I mentioned things that are necessities to gaining muscles meaning that without them it is impossible to get muscle growth. You mentioned luxuries. In PA luxuries are taxed and necessities are not taxed. If you walk to the gym or have a gym at home, there is no need for a vehicle. If the gym is outside like Muscle Beach or it has enough sunlight coming in, then there is no need for light bulbs. Also you can build muscles without shoes.

[ginkgo]

"Saying you need sleep for growth is pointless, as that is obvious. If you had said 8 hrs vs 4hrs, then we have a debate. Sleep is needed for life. or - let me throw in ' we need a bed for muscle growth'."

You are saying that it is pointless to mention things that are needed for life. Right? Then you are saying that carbs and protein are not needed for life since they were mentioned.

"the vitamin factor is debatable as I take vitamins but am no bigger than others that rely on the little they get from food."

Vitamins are not vitamin pills. You need to get vitamins from food or somewhere or else. I feel people should get vitamins from foods, not pills. If you do not get enough vitamin D, you get rickets and without enough vitamin C, you get scurvy.

You mention other things that I said nothing about. I never say that you need to drink water. On a post I say that people in China drink tea, not water. It is the post about how tea (not water) prevents cancer, helps with losing excess fat, helps concentration etc.

If you need certain nutrients (including carbs and protein which is what people are discussing with me) and if you do not get enough of them, you will be malnourished. So you and I are both saying that if you are malnourished then you will have problems with muscle growth. But lack of other things than protein and carbs can cause malnourishment. President George Bush takes a supplement of fat. That is the only one that I know of. It is omega-3.

So if things are necessary for life (like protein and carbs) it is not necessary to say that they contribute to building muscles. That is what you said but you used the word pointless. So you just need enough of the necessary elements. Resistance training and steroids are not needed for life. Many live without them. So those are the 2 things that I would say contribute to muscle growth since they are not needed for life like protein and carbs are.

The OP said that he was not taking in more carbs or protein, just eating healthier. So I am saying that anything and everything that contributes to better health will mean better results with bodybuilding.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

This is not valid reasoning. I mentioned things that are necessities to gaining muscles meaning that without them it is impossible to get muscle growth. You mentioned luxuries. In PA luxuries are taxed and necessities are not taxed. If you walk to the gym or have a gym at home, there is no need for a vehicle. If the gym is outside like Muscle Beach or it has enough sunlight coming in, then there is no need for light bulbs. Also you can build muscles without shoes.

No, your style of argueing is not reasonable. This thread is about what is optimal to muscle growth not life. Do you not get this? You mention things that are a necessity and automatic to life, not to body buliding.

You are the one that has taken the thread down this direction, with your obsession with inclusion, when it suits you.

You talk about the need for vitamin D and sunlight, but not the dozens of other vitamins, or the importance of water or calories, macronutrient ratios, et al

ps how many gyms are outside in the open air. So what about us in cold countries? do people not train in the evenings after work. How many outside open spaces are there to train outside?

Originally Posted by ginkgo

The point that I was originally trying to make was (another analogy) is that air does not contribute to muscle growth. It is not like if you hyperventilate, your muscles will grow quicker. But without enough air you would die and muscles do not grow on dead people. Or if you did not get enough air (oxygen), your muscles would probably not grow since your body would start dying. So yes get enough air but it does not contribute to muscle growth.
Sunlight can help your muscles grow or contribute to muscle growth. See thread about testosterone. You can test it out and get no sunlight (with no pre-vitamin D) while trying to build muscles. Then get lots of sunlight like the governor of CA did and see what happens. I have the governor's 700+ page book, Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding.

So you can tout your vitamin D and sunlight but you dont tout air. Which one will kill you faster with its omition. Air, vit d and sunlight. Is this truely your style of debate?

Originally Posted by ginkgo

You are saying that it is pointless to mention things that are needed for life. Right? Then you are saying that carbs and protein are not needed for life since they were mentioned.[/COLOR]


You mention other things that I said nothing about. I never say that you need to drink water. On a post I say that people in China drink tea, not water. It is the post about how tea (not water) prevents cancer, helps with losing excess fat, helps concentration etc.

You are playing pick and mix again. So you penalise me for saying you're inclusion of the obvious is pointless, but then you do the same with your tea, cancer example. Without water you will die much sooner than before cancer ever hitting you. So should that not get top priority in your post. In a tea, is not water 99.99999999% of the substance you drink? No, you didnt put it becos tea obviously comes with water. Just as carbs, protein and fats are the basis of food. obvious stuff. stuff that doesnt need to be OCD about

Originally Posted by ginkgo

If you need certain nutrients (including carbs and protein which is what people are discussing with me) and if you do not get enough of them, you will be malnourished. So you and I are both saying that if you are malnourished then you will have problems with muscle growth. But lack of other things than protein and carbs can cause malnourishment.

So if things are necessary for life (like protein and carbs) it is not necessary to say that they contribute to building muscles. That is what you said but you used the word pointless. So you just need enough of the necessary elements.

Again this is a thread about optimal muscle growth. You do not need to talk about beds in a legal book, even though sleep is needed for life. without life there is no bodybuilding, that is obvious. this is not a thread of 5 yr olds. thats like going to a bakery and asking for a chicken salad sandwich, then reminding the baker to not forget the bread. That would be pointless. if you requested a specific type of bread, it wont be pointless.

I am saying it is pointless to state things that come automatically. Just as it is pointless to go to a fancy restaurant, ask for food. then request a fork, spoon, knife, a clean plate, a chair thats not broken, your food to be in date, to be cooked in clean utensils, in a clean kitchen. We expect all of these automatically. So you do not need to include them when requesting a 3 course meal.

Originally Posted by joelr

That's almost right, not quite though. Mass creates the bend which is then called Gravity.
You say you have traveled at 535,680,000 miles per hour???? One half billion miles per hour....
On the Special Relativity question I have already calculated the answer. I too know the equation.

Arnold talks about tanning in his book in terms of contest prep. There is NO noticeable difference in terms of sunlight/muscle size. It is used in bodybuilding to LOOK better onstage. It may be advised to get enough vitamin D as part of a program to make sure your body is in full muscle building mode but it really doesn't account for Jack in the real world.
In that book Arnold's main message is train hard, train properly, rest, eat the right foods and eat lot's of it.

This I agree with, this is the truth

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Resistance training and steroids are not needed for life. Many live without them. So those are the 2 things that I would say contribute to muscle growth since they are not needed for life like protein and carbs are.

So I am saying that anything and everything that contributes to better health will mean better results with bodybuilding.

yeah but many do not reach the maximum physical muscle-building capacity without them. Show me one person that looks symmetrically muscular, without resistance training.

No everything that contributes to health does not equal better results in bodybuilding. Bodybuilders on steroids will always be bigger and stronger than natural bodybuilders. Does that mean that steroids contributes to health. Pro bodybuilders eat up to 6000 plus calories, some even up to 8, 9000 calories a day. Is this healthy? Then they cut carbs, and use an array of substances to cut the bodyfat to 3%, is this healthy?

A truely healthy diet will kill optimal muscle gain. I am guessing your vegan bodybuilder is probably ripped but not big.
Additional sunlight is not needed for muscle growth. Infact i do not think it would put an ounce extra muscle on a person. You are free, to prove me wrong. Operative word being prove, not suggest I try myself