Eating meat, healthier than vegan?

[dwixi]

YouTube - Vegan Video - A collection of pseudoscientific tripe cleverly presented.

Look at this video.

Its really interesting.

Its writing over a pro vegetarian video.

Apparently people that eat meat live longer than vegetarians! D:

What do you think?

[Xanafax]

I think science will show us the way.

Whilst the guy doing the writing does debunk their science (I googled it...) it doesn't necessarily mean he is right.

I have read about the paleo diet, it's interesting, and I've read about Vegetarianism/Veganism - it too is interesting. Both present convincing cases to the lay man.

However like I said a scientific understanding of our bodies will show clearly what diet we should have. You cannot ignore the fact that meat tastes nicer to us that Vegetables. We can convince ourselves it doesn't. But as a Tabula Rasa in our youth we gravitate towards the meat more.

But the jury is still out, I don't know what to believe frankly. Too much propaganda not enough facts available.

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

I think science will show us the way.

Whilst the guy doing the writing does debunk their science (I googled it...) it doesn't necessarily mean he is right.

I have read about the paleo diet, it's interesting, and I've read about Vegetarianism/Veganism - it too is interesting. Both present convincing cases to the lay man.

However like I said a scientific understanding of our bodies will show clearly what diet we should have. You cannot ignore the fact that meat tastes nicer to us that Vegetables. We can convince ourselves it doesn't. But as a Tabula Rasa in our youth we gravitate towards the meat more.

But the jury is still out, I don't know what to believe frankly. Too much propaganda not enough facts available.

I wouldnt let that you think meat tastes nicer let you make a dissision.

I mean. The feeling of doing hard core drugs feels nicer than your natural state but that doesnt mean its what we should be doing.

[jeff3]

Originally Posted by dwixi

YouTube - Vegan Video - A collection of pseudoscientific tripe cleverly presented.

Look at this video.

Its really interesting.

Its writing over a pro vegetarian video.

Apparently people that eat meat live longer than vegetarians! D:

What do you think?

It's old news to me, I passed on the Kool-Aid.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

But the jury is still out, I don't know what to believe frankly. Too much propaganda not enough facts available.

That's how I feel about it as well. There are "facts" from both sides of the coin that disagree with each other.

What I do know is this: most Americans probably need less hamburgers and more fruits and vegetables in their diet for optimal health.

[newdad]

I would venture that either side of the coin is healthier than eating what 90% of what Western Civilization eats.

[James81]

Depends on the meat.

After all, it's generally accepted that fish is really good for you and that you should eat red meat sparingly.

To me, that makes sense. Because I figure it was probably easier for our ancestors to catch fish and eat them than it was to kill a buffalo. lol

[Erin Pavlina]

Aside from the health factor, there is the ethical issue. A lot of people go vegan because they see eating meat as murder. They believe that if we can live without it, we should in good conscience do so. I think if you polled most pigs, cows, and chickens, they'd agree they'd like to stay alive until they die of natural causes. If you really need to have a burger, follow a cow around until he falls over at a ripe old age of natural causes, then eat the remains. There, everyone is happy

[Xanafax]

Ahh Erin. I have no ethical problem with eating animals. I don't believe they serve any purpose any more, since agriculture has removed them from the food chain almost entirely.

Food is what they are good for.

[ballhit2]

As an ethical vegan, I await test-tube meat with glee, knowing that nothing with eyes died to create it.

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

What I do know is this: most Americans probably need less hamburgers and more fruits and vegetables in their diet for optimal health.

Exactly. People argue against the strawman of a diet consisting of lots of meat prepared in unhealthy ways (fast food burgers, fried chicken, etc.). I think a diet that is sensible on meat and includes lots of fruits and vegetables can be very healthy. The average meat eater does not consume that diet.

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I think if you polled most pigs, cows, and chickens, they'd agree they'd like to stay alive until they die of natural causes.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but I find a lot of projecting when it comes to the ethical argument. Would the animal choose to live rather than sustain us? We don't know. Is it objectively regrettable or "bad" that an animal dies to support other animals, even if (such as the case w/humans) the predatory animal has a choice not to kill? I don't know.

We really don't know about the inner lives of animals.

[Daffy Duck]

It is interesting that many of us want to protect cows but have no ethical problem killing a mosquito.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by ballhit2

As an ethical vegan, I await test-tube meat with glee, knowing that nothing with eyes died to create it.

My over-all issue with this is that there is still over-all energy waste.

When eating locally cultivated vegan food, you re-enter your place in the natural food chain, eating what the land yields and giving back nutrients to the soil that the plants raised can benefit from.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

It is interesting that many of us want to protect cows but have no ethical problem killing a mosquito.

Hey if something is attacking you, you have a right to defend yourself. But when was the last time you were chased by a cow who wanted to eat you?

[Daffy Duck]

I kill mosquitoes whether or not they're attacking me. I consider it a preemptive strike.

I don't personally feel any ethical issues with eating animals, but I do want them to be treated nicely while they're alive and them humanly put to death when it's time. Locking chickens in tiny cages is just mean.

[newdad]

I eat grass-fed buffalo. There is a farm about 1/2 a mile from me that I get it from. There are maybe thirty to forty in the herd at any time and they have several fields that they rotate on.

I know these buffalo have it good. The fields are huge compared to the size of the herd,

BTW, Erin. My neighbor raises one or two cattle a year. Last year on my way home, one of the young steers tried chasing me down. If it weren't for the fence he would have ran me down. Don't let cattle fool you, if they weren't hindered by their inability to unlock gates, they'd be after all of us.

[Erin Pavlina]

Truly I believe everyone has the right to eat what they want. I'm just reminded of the 1800's when people probably said, "Why do the slaves complain? We feed them, clothe them and give them shelter. Is it so hard for them to act grateful for this? it's what they're made for after all. Without us slave owners, these slaves probably wouldn't be able to feed themselves."

My personal opinion is that we no more have the right to prematurely end a being's life or keep it in captivity than we do another person. I know a lot of people don't see animals in this light and that's okay. But I do. If the animal drops dead after living a nice long life, eat it. But to round them up, herd them into a truck, stun them, hang them, and slit their throats all the while they are crying and screaming... don't tell me that's what they're made for.

[Desmond]

If so, then would you say that carnivores are evil, since they cannot eat plants?

And if animals have souls and eating them would cause these beings to suffer, then what about plants? They are living too, are they not?

What about bacteria? Is it wrong to use antibiotic soap? They are living too are they not? And if every living thing has a consciousness, then washing your hands would also be wrong, since 99% of the germs on your hands are harmless.

I know it feels wrong, but that's just the cycle of life.

I believe that animals do have feelings, but they are not conscious beings like humans and some other species are.

[Erin Pavlina]

No one is evil. I don't hold any ill will towards people who eat meat. I just can't do it because to me it's murder. But I understand that to many it is not.

I would not willingly harm anything, yet everyday there is a give and take in life and something that is alive gets killed. But to knowingly and intentionally and without regard to that animal go out and kill it for food... that is something I cannot do. To not even understand its predicament, or that it prefers to live free, to strip it of its right to live by holding it alive in a cage for months until it's fat enough for someone to enjoy on a plate, that is gross to me.

I don't think that eating an animal is necessarily a bad choice, I'm just saying wait until it's died naturally, while living and roaming free. I don't expect people to agree with me. But there may be some people who do, and for them I wanted to express my opinion on this subject.

Again, I don't consider it right or wrong to eat an animal. Just understand the consequences when you do and make sure you're not fooling yourself.

[funchy]

dwixi : Sorry, I think the edited version is a load of tripe. If their ideas are so brilliant, why did they need to steal someone else's copyrighted video and cover it with their own rationalizations? And IMO their "facts" are misleading at best.

If you look at statistics and try to find correlation, you'll find that generally speaking people on high-meat diets (eg. the SAD diet) do NOT live as long. On average there is a correlation between heart disease and cancers, which are top killers of adults in the US. We also know meat concentrated environmental toxins plus gives us drug residues, both of which may be linked to a whole myriad of health problems.

We can say "but if I ate grass-fed, free-range, organic 'humane' beef" but the reality is that almost no commercially available meat meets this criteria. If nobody can obtain it, for all intents and purposes when we say "meat" we must mean the factory-farmed crap that's on our grocer's shelves or restaurant's menus.

Originally Posted by Desmond

If so, then would you say that carnivores are evil, since they cannot eat plants?

Carnivores are designed to eat only meat. We are not carnivores.

Carnivore animals don't have the brains to contemplate the consequences of their dietary actions. We do.

Carnivore animals don't have a "good" or "evil" because they lack the ability to know right from wrong. We can tell right from wrong. We just choose not to sometimes.

And if animals have souls and eating them would cause these beings to suffer, then what about plants? They are living too, are they not?

Plants have no central nervous system. How can you suffer without feeling pain?

If you eat a plant-based diet you're only killing a small fraction of the plants. To produce a pound of food from plants you need a pound of plant-based foods. To produce a pound of beef you need about 7-10 pounds of plant foods and ~1000 gallons of fresh water.

If we can be perfectly happy eating one way, isn't it just a huge waste when we insist on choosing the less-efficient, polluting, pathogen-rich way?

I know it feels wrong, but that's just the cycle of life.

Then by your argument, anything that is the cycle of life must be ok. People die. So it must be ok if people die sooner than they might want to. So therefore homicide should be ok as well?

I believe that animals do have feelings, but they are not conscious beings like humans and some other species are.

How intelligent a being is should not be the criteria for killing & eating it. By this logic, if a person was born mentally disabled or was in a coma, you'd be ok eating him/her? Are newborn babies ok to be eaten, as long as you do it before they develop self-awareness? Reminds me of an old movie called Soylent Green.

If we use consciousness as criteria, can we define what you mean by that? Do you mean aware? Thinking? Able to think in advance of taking action? If so, those terms do apply to animals, and I can prove it.

Level of consciousness should not justify the absolutely unnatural, unhealthy, cruel conditions we as humans create in order to commercially produce meat. What did the chicken do to deserve having it's beak being cut off with a hot knife by a non-veterinarian, no anesthesia or pain medication? What did the calf do to deserve being pulled from mom within hours of birth, put in a 2' chain in a metal crate, and locked out of reach of grass or fresh air until the day it's killed? Did you know young male cows and pigs are castrated (have their testicles cut out) without anesthesia and usually without a vet? How can these things be ok?

If we use the humans-are-superior argument to justify confining & consuming animals, isn't it more accurate to say humans-are-better because we good enough to think it through and decide we don't need to cause massive suffering to suit our pleasures.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Truly I believe everyone has the right to eat what they want. I'm just reminded of the 1800's when people probably said, "Why do the slaves complain? We feed them, clothe them and give them shelter. Is it so hard for them to act grateful for this? it's what they're made for after all. Without us slave owners, these slaves probably wouldn't be able to feed themselves."

My personal opinion is that we no more have the right to prematurely end a being's life or keep it in captivity than we do another person. I know a lot of people don't see animals in this light and that's okay. But I do. If the animal drops dead after living a nice long life, eat it. But to round them up, herd them into a truck, stun them, hang them, and slit their throats all the while they are crying and screaming... don't tell me that's what they're made for.

I think someone could make an ethical arguement against the current state of how meat is processed in this country and mass marketed. There are a few solid points to that arguement, I can agree. Herding cattle up or throwing chickens into cages is just wrong.

That doesn't make eating meat wrong. And that doesn't make killing the weaker animals wrong either. (i.e. hunting as opposed to herding and mass slaughtering) That's a pretty natural part of evolution (survival of the fittest) and it's actually BENEFICIAL to those animals that are hunted naturally. Why? Because, take deer hunting for example. The ONLY deer you ever see in the woods are the weaker deer. The stronger, most healthy deer, you will NEVER see (until they get older and weaker). There is a limited amount of food out there for these animals in the woods. Hell, even WITH hunting, there are some pretty scarce foods sources for them in the winter. My dad feeds deer with corn (he calls them his "pets" lol) and the deer FLOCK around that feeder when it goes off.

So, by controlling the animal population, you are actually ensuring that the stronger deer are finding enough food for the winter and don't die long, painful deaths from starvation. I think a bullet is probably less painful that starving to death, don't you think? I mean, if I had a choice, I'd rather somebody shot me than starve to death.

So, while i agree that rounding them up, herding them for slaughter is unethical, natural hunting is a win-win situation.

[James81]

btw, deer meat (venison) is pretty good for you (healthwise).

[Indy107]

Originally Posted by Desmond

And if animals have souls and eating them would cause these beings to suffer, then what about plants? They are living too, are they not?

I have been reading this thread with interest as I share the same feelings as Funchy and Erin. I don't eat meat either - especially grocery store factory farmed crap.

Anyway, this comment about plants reminded me of Cleve Baxter. Not to throw a wrench in the system here, as I DO eat plants, but back in the 60's Baxter did an experiment with a plant and a lie detector. It seems that plants ARE aware. Whether or not they feel pain - I don't know - but they are aware.

In one experiment - and I'm going from memory here - he ran a double blind experiment with 2 plants and 4 volunteers. Basically it was a room with 2 plants. The volunteers were given secret instructions, which they were not to read until they entered the room, one at a time, with the plants. The instructions said basically do nothing, but one volunteer was instructed to destroy one of the plants. No one knew who the 'murderer was going to be, not even Baxter. Afterward, the remaining plant was connected to a lie detector, and one by one, the volunteers were asked to enter the room. When the 'murderer' entered the room, the lie detector went nuts - off the scale. That plant witnessed this volunteer killing the other plant.

Sounds strange - I know. Google Cleve Baxter or The Secret Life of Plants. Interesting stuff. Makes you wonder.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by dwixi

Apparently people that eat meat, live longer than vegetarians!
What do you think?

a gross over-simplification, considering additional factors are involved, in how long a person lives, let alone how healthy a person lives, including as I have said before, a person's "blood-type" Blood Type Diet: Scientific Basis

Too, it's not the 'years' in your life that count half as much, as the LIFE QUALITY in your years.

[LVGeneration]

My grate-grandparents have lived in a remote farm, I used to go visit them every summer. They raised cattle, pigs, chicken, turkey, you name it. They had an orchard, a vineyard, a corn field, vegetable garden, pond, etc. Them and their parents, and their grandparent ate a mixed diet of vegetables and meat. They ate everything, but pork and beef were a big part of their traditional cooking. They lived long healthy lives, approached almost 100 years of age, and the story in my family goes that one of my grate-grate-grandparents was still doing cartwheels at 120 years old.
I am telling you this story because I feel that sometimes we (including me, of course) forget the big picture in trying to concentrate on the small pieces of the puzzle. I think the culprit of poor health is pollution, environmental pollution and chemical pollution of our bodies. Americans are supposed to be the richest people of the world, yet we are not the healthiest. We over-process our food with chemicals. If you ask me, it's not about eating meat or not, it's about what kind of meat you're eating. The same goes for milk, eggs, vegetables and fruits, etc. I had the best example in my family, they ate meat, eggs and milk everyday, the very things that are supposed to be bad for you. Except they were all organic. And they lived a long, healthy life.
Sorry about the long comment, just my 2 cents

[Daffy Duck]

I think one of Erin's primary points was just to have awareness. If you eat some meat from a Burger King, understand that the cow may not have been treated nicely.

These are issues we face almost every day. The other day I bought some cheap undershirts from a department store. I know that the shirts were likely made by underpaid Asian workers. So by buying the shirts, am I now a supporter of slave labor? I don't think so, but some others might.

Can't really get around that unless you make everything yourself.

[jeff3]

I think most of the obesity and health problems today stem from the sedentary lives people live as compared to what the people just a couple generations ago did.Also, as we make all these advancements in medicine, people who are less fit to survive are surviving and reproducing, definitely not part of natures plan. My parents and certainly their parents worked longer, harder hours out in the sun and fresh air than I have ever had to. This was by necessity of course, but the point is, less people sat at a desk or video console than we have doing this now.

I've posted this here before but my fathers family ate lots of pork, salted pork, home preserved meats (with nitrates), they cooked with lard and ate real butter, drank rain water from a "cistern" which ran off their roof. This was every day. They started at sunrise and worked till dark when crop season was in full swing, they used to let school out for cotton picking time. Out of 14 brothers and sisters I think 11 are still alive and in their 70's and 80's, the ones who have died were in their 80's except one who had downs syndrome and she lived to be over 60 which is very rare for a downs child. If you ate what they did and sat at a desk it might kill you pretty quick, but physical activity plus having the benefit of no-one telling them it was unhealthy probably gave them an edge.

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by LVGeneration

My grate-grandparents have lived in a remote farm, I used to go visit them every summer. They raised cattle, pigs, chicken, turkey, you name it. They had an orchard, a vineyard, a corn field, vegetable garden, pond, etc. Them and their parents, and their grandparent ate a mixed diet of vegetables and meat. They ate everything, but pork and beef were a big part of their traditional cooking. They lived long healthy lives, approached almost 100 years of age, and the story in my family goes that one of my grate-grate-grandparents was still doing cartwheels at 120 years old.
I am telling you this story because I feel that sometimes we (including me, of course) forget the big picture in trying to concentrate on the small pieces of the puzzle. I think the culprit of poor health is pollution, environmental pollution and chemical pollution of our bodies. Americans are supposed to be the richest people of the world, yet we are not the healthiest. We over-process our food with chemicals. If you ask me, it's not about eating meat or not, it's about what kind of meat you're eating. The same goes for milk, eggs, vegetables and fruits, etc. I had the best example in my family, they ate meat, eggs and milk everyday, the very things that are supposed to be bad for you. Except they were all organic. And they lived a long, healthy life.
Sorry about the long comment, just my 2 cents

Good post LVGen, i agree wholeheartedly.

[Inthon]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

No one is evil. I don't hold any ill will towards people who eat meat. I just can't do it because to me it's murder. But I understand that to many it is not.

I would not willingly harm anything, yet everyday there is a give and take in life and something that is alive gets killed. But to knowingly and intentionally and without regard to that animal go out and kill it for food... that is something I cannot do. To not even understand its predicament, or that it prefers to live free, to strip it of its right to live by holding it alive in a cage for months until it's fat enough for someone to enjoy on a plate, that is gross to me.

I don't think that eating an animal is necessarily a bad choice, I'm just saying wait until it's died naturally, while living and roaming free. I don't expect people to agree with me. But there may be some people who do, and for them I wanted to express my opinion on this subject.

Again, I don't consider it right or wrong to eat an animal. Just understand the consequences when you do and make sure you're not fooling yourself.

Very well said. This site has raised my consciousness about meat-eating.

I still eat meat daily, but I have a much greater awareness of what goes into it and I buy humanely handled meat or just try to eat less of it. It's not perfect, but it's a start.

I think that's what personal development is all about. Searching for Truth, Awareness and Consciousness and then taking steps in the right direction.

Keep it up Steve and Erin.