Never believed the dairy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ - well don't I look stupid now

[tomn8er]

Originally Posted by Dreamline

There is a big difference in life between "wants," "cans" and "shoulds." Basically the questions are:

"Should we be drinking cow's milk?" Probably not. The evidence is overwhelming that is bad on many levels. Even if you don't realize it is hurting you. Not all effects are immediate. You can ingest lead and mercury for a long time before you start to feel poisoned. Any nutrients the dairy board's commercial promises you can easily be obtained from sources that ARE designed for human consumption. The vitamin aspect shouldn't even be an aspect.

"Can we drink cow's milk?" Yes, most of us can and not feel any obvious effects. At least not right away and at least not that we directly attribute to milk. But just because our bodies are incredibly adaptive even when under duress, it's really not a great idea to press one's luck.

"I like cow's milk, I feel fine and I WANT to drink it" is called denial. I don't care if smoking is bad for me. I'm willing to ignore overwhelming evidence and I don't care what you think, I'm going to keep doing it. Whatev. It's your body. I say that sincerely.

But all humans have a negative immune response to dairy products. Your immune system also protects you from dire illness, cancers and autoimmune disease when it's allowed to function optimally. Do you really want it distracted on a daily, hourly or even minutely basis by something you aren't even designed to ingest? Hmmm...



Jennifer

Well said Jennifer! I agree with you totally! Unfortunately I'm still stuck at the "I like cow's milk, I feel fine and I WANT to drink it" stage! Man, I tried going vegan a couple years back and milk was by the far the hardest thing to avoid for me! They throw it in everything, even crackers and such. Pretty much all desserts are off-limits! Plus i love eating cereal and cereal without milk just isn't the same. But I guess I could start by cutting back on the big stuff - no more yogurt or milk. But I'm certainly not giving up pizza any time in the near future!!!

[Daffy Duck]

As I get older I'm naturally getting tired of some dairy products. I think I'll always love cereal and yogurt, but anything too cheesy and especially pizza lately I'm very turned off by. Most college students can just eat a ton of pizza but I think I've had enough. The past few times I've ate pizza I really didn't enjoy it... it was just there.

Ditto for ice cream. I like a small soft serve now and then but the hard and rich ice cream... too much! It does taste good though, I'll give it that.

I'm skeptical of the "evidence" against dairy -- but I also don't think we need 3 servings of dairy every day that the USDA recommends. One serving a day (or less) works well for me.

[Indy107]

Interesting vid on youtube.

Milk, The Deadly Poison

[Jthorn]

That video isn't saying anything different to what I 've been saying all along. Milk isn't inherently bad, but is today, for the reasons we outlined again and again.

By the way, fruits are meant to carry seeds and nutrients for them, roots are meant to absorb nutrients, leafs are meant to absorb sunlight. Pretty much nothing that humans or animals eat has the sole purpose of being consumed. It's astonishing how people fancy themselves open minded, yet can't fathom drinking something meant for another species.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Jthorn

Milk isn't inherently bad, but is today, for the reasons we outlined again and again.

Yeah, I notice that too. Stuff that's posted over and over and over and over again somehow gets conveniently ignored. Strange, huh?

Here I go for my own round of the "outlining again and again." It's a link to a couple of chapters from Weston Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, about the two groups of optimally-healthy people who consumed dairy.

Price himself came to value high-quality dairy (i.e, raw milk from cows fed on grass growing in rich soil) and recommended it to his patients. A few of the chapters contain pictures of before and after x-rays taken of their healed bones and teeth after they improved their diet.

Lately science has revealed that milk and fat from grass-fed cows contain vitamin K2, something that is woefully lacking in the modern diet.

Note that milk and fat from grain-fed cows has virtually no K2.

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: Chapter 3

"Isolated and modernized Swiss"

Their diet was mainly rye bread, cheese, and butter. They ate meat once a week.

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: Chapter 9

"Isolated and modernized African tribes"

Section on the Masai tribe, whose diet was mainly raw meat, blood, and milk.

[Indy107]

Originally Posted by Jthorn

It's astonishing how people fancy themselves open minded, yet can't fathom drinking something meant for another species.

So if you are open minded, then it would be no problem having a little gorilla milk on your cereal? Maybe a spoonful of Nestles quick in your warm glass of cat milk? I consider myself very open minded, but I also realize milk was meant for one purpose, to feed and nourish us as babies. Then we're done. That's why the milk dries up, and why we lose the enzyme that helps us process it. It's simply nature's way.

[Jthorn]

Originally Posted by Indy107

So if you are open minded, then it would be no problem having a little gorilla milk on your cereal? Maybe a spoonful of Nestles quick in your warm glass of cat milk? I consider myself very open minded, but I also realize milk was meant for one purpose, to feed and nourish us as babies. Then we're done. That's why the milk dries up, and why we lose the enzyme that helps us process it. It's simply nature's way.

I don't know about yours, but in my reality an open minded person is the one who can grasp that ways change and doesn't accept anything as static.
Someone above says that not accepting milk is bad equals denial; and yet they observe themselves how adaptive the human body is.

It's funny, since this site & forum also discusses subjective reality and intention manifestation (and I 've seen people intending bodily changes). Yet people that discuss those things can't grasp that someone's reality is drinking milk and manifests their body that way.

[Indy107]

Originally Posted by Jthorn

It's funny, since this site & forum also discusses subjective reality and intention manifestation (and I 've seen people intending bodily changes). Yet people that discuss those things can't grasp that someone's reality is drinking milk and manifests their body that way.

Now I have often thought about that. If I 'truly believe' - that say drinking milk or eating chocolate doughnuts and french fries for breakfast is good for me......is it? If I 'believe' it is healthy - then it should be. I think I read/heard Abraham/Hicks discuss this. Interesting concept either way.

I personally have never been a milk drinker - but my wife is. And no matter how many times I point out how many chemicals are in it, or how many hormones are in it, or how processed it has become - she will always believe it is good for her - because she was raised that way. I guess you can lead a horse to water - but you can't make him drink (or in this case - not drink)

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Indy107

Now I have often thought about that. If I 'truly believe' - that say drinking milk or eating chocolate doughnuts and french fries for breakfast is good for me......is it? If I 'believe' it is healthy - then it should be. I think I read/heard Abraham/Hicks discuss this. Interesting concept either way.

I personally have never been a milk drinker - but my wife is. And no matter how many times I point out how many chemicals are in it, or how many hormones are in it, or how processed it has become - she will always believe it is good for her - because she was raised that way. I guess you can lead a horse to water - but you can't make him drink (or in this case - not drink)

From what I understand of LoA and how it's worked in my life, if you truly believed that cow's milk (for example) is perfectly healthy, you will see plenty of confirmations in your life: you'll feel great consuming it, people raving about the benefits of milk will abound, you will randomly bump into scientific studies that confirm it and you would not hear the opposite point of view anymore. You would not be hearing much from lactose intolerant people etc. If you try to forge a belief that living on chocolate and doughnuts is healthy but see that people who eat a lot of them aren't, it's not going to work. If you believe something in spite of contrary evidence in your life it's not LoA, it's denial.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by aelle

From what I understand of LoA and how it's worked in my life, if you truly believed that cow's milk (for example) is perfectly healthy, you will see plenty of confirmations in your life: you'll feel great consuming it, people raving about the benefits of milk will abound, you will randomly bump into scientific studies that confirm it and you would not hear the opposite point of view anymore. You would not be hearing much from lactose intolerant people etc. If you try to forge a belief that living on chocolate and doughnuts is healthy but see that people who eat a lot of them aren't, it's not going to work. If you believe something in spite of contrary evidence in your life it's not LoA, it's denial.

That's a great way of putting it. Maybe sometimes people think they're employing LoA, but it's really wishful thinking?

[Jthorn]

It is an interesting question. Afterall, there are plenty of people who smoke, drink and eat junk food, yet remain apparently healthy throughout their lives. Until others pump them full of worries and they get sick .

The way I see it, if you believe in subjective reality, there can be no denial. At least that's my impression; that this is the whole point.

An objective reality however, does not exclude the possibility of a human body that is capable of adapting. I 'm open to imagining that, given enough time, our bodies could learn to make optimal use of junk food.
Milk though, is not junk. Even if your body reacts to lactose, it's still packed full of good stuff - good for us now, with no need to evolve - and there's no denying that ( as far as real milk is concerned).

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Jthorn

Milk though, is not junk. Even if your body reacts to lactose, it's still packed full of good stuff - good for us now, with no need to evolve - and there's no denying that ( as far as real milk is concerned).

ITA. I have definitely felt the difference between drinking industrially-produced milk and raw milk from grass-fed cows. It's like night and day.

The Ethicurean recently posted a story about the sad plight of dairy farmers in the U.S., and reminded me yet again why it's necessary to avoid industrial dairy products.

Although milk prices are falling dramatically, supposedly due to over-production, food manufacturers are importing and using a nasty unregulated additive called “milk protein concentrates”:

There is almost no domestic production of MPCs. Even as U.S. dairy farmers threaten to pour milk down the drain, rather than sell it for less than half what it cost them to produce it, dairy processing companies have continued to move from cheap domestic milk to even cheaper MPCs from countries with poor food-safety records. Wrote John Bunting in the May issue of the dairy industry insider Milkweed: “More MPCs were imported in January and February of this year than any other year…. For the first two months of 2009, there was a 71.8% increase in MPC imports compared to [the same two months in] 2008.”

Here's a couple of good articles on it from the Family Farm Defenders site:

Family Farm Defenders : Milk Protein Concentrate MPC-Consumers Must Be Warned

Milk Protein Concentrate (MPC) sounds OK, but how would it look if we saw the word “glue” on our food and beverage labels? MPC is legal for glue and for industrial uses, but it has never been approved for human consumption. Why then does the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) permit MPC use in any food or beverage without first having this unapproved ingredient tested for safety and nutrition as required by law under federal “Generally Regarded As Safe”(GRAS) status?

The FDA has failed to uphold its own standards that are supposed to protect the public’s food supply by allowing this illegal “manufactured” powder to be used in baby formulas, sports drinks, nutritional supplements, diet products, snacks, candies, desserts, yogurt, cheese products, pizza, ice cream, and countless other food items. Ignoring the strong objections raised by both dairy farmers and consumer food activists, FDA has allowed MPC use to continue with about 200 “patents” now in use or pending.

[...]

The fact that MPC is a powder that comes from diverse foreign countries makes it impossible to verify its source since it might be mixed together to obtain certain levels of protein, and no one using it wants to certify its origin or its safety or nutritional analysis. Some of the countries sending MPC to the U.S. for use in our food supply include India, Russia, and China, all nations where questionable health issues in the past have included radiation contamination, chemical pollution, and disease factors. India, one of the major exporters of MPC, has free-ranging, garbage-eating water buffalo as a chief source of its milk protein concentrate. Shipment and transhipment can easily hide the fact that MPC originates in foreign countries routinely challenged by outbreaks of Mad Cow Disease, Hoof and Mouth Disease, brucellosis, and many other serious diseases. Don’t count on U.S. Customs to watch out for consumers since less than two percent of any imports is being inspected.

Family Farm Defenders : Is There Krap In Your Kraft Singles

Big food processors, like Kraft - the largest U.S. cheese company, owned by tobacco giant Philip-Morris - use MPC in many popular products: cheese, frozen desserts, and high protein sports drinks, energy bars, and nutritional supplements.

[...]

So Why Is Anyone Allowed to Use MPC?

When it comes to cheese, technically, no one is allowed to use MPC. The FDA has "standards of identity" for most cheeses, including Pasteurized Processed Cheese Food (like Kraft Singles). MPC is not an approved ingredient under FDA's standards of identity. Yet the agency has looked the other way as imports of MPC skyrocketed. In 2000 alone, dairy processors like Kraft imported 52,000 metric tons of MPC - that's the equivalent of 4.6 billion pounds of milk!

Who Benefits from Using MPC?

Big food processing companies save money by buying cheap imported MPC rather than paying a fair price to U.S. dairy farmers. In fact, these companies are so anxious to use cheap imports that last year they petitioned the FDA to change the definition of milk! They want to be able to list the liquid form of MPC as "milk" on product labels. In 2004 alone the dairy giants imported over 34 million metric tons of MPC.

[ballhit2]

I just wanted to comment in the thread which allowed a cuss word in its title.

Woot!

[funchy]

Originally Posted by liamona

MPC is not an approved ingredient under FDA's standards of identity. Yet the agency has looked the other way as imports of MPC skyrocketed. In 2000 alone, dairy processors like Kraft imported 52,000 metric tons of MPC - that's the equivalent of 4.6 billion pounds of milk!

Forgive me for asking what might be a stupid question, but why do they consider a derivative of milk unsafe? Or are they objecting to using MPC in cheese because the final product wouldn't really be true cheese then (as in false advertising) ?

BTW, I personally think Kraft products generally aren't real food. Kraft seems so synonymous with overprocessed, cheap-quality, mass-produced junk. I only wish the public opinion would start to realize Kraft food is pretty much junk-food. If they're going to eat it, fine... but at least call it for what it is. Why are Doritos considered junkfood but Kraft Mac-n-Cheeze considered a part of a normal American dinner? But we are the same country that thinks french fries are "vegetables".

[jeff3]

Originally Posted by aelle

From what I understand of LoA and how it's worked in my life, if you truly believed that cow's milk (for example) is perfectly healthy, you will see plenty of confirmations in your life: you'll feel great consuming it, people raving about the benefits of milk will abound, you will randomly bump into scientific studies that confirm it and you would not hear the opposite point of view anymore. You would not be hearing much from lactose intolerant people etc. If you try to forge a belief that living on chocolate and doughnuts is healthy but see that people who eat a lot of them aren't, it's not going to work. If you believe something in spite of contrary evidence in your life it's not LoA, it's denial.

actually that's Websters definition of "faith".

[Froztwolf]

Thanks you guys.
You have finally convinced me to do a 30 day experiment of no-dairy to see if it affects my allergy.
It will be tough as I consume quite a bit of yoghurt as well as cheesy foods but then it's only 30 days. And if it does have a considerable effect on my allergy then it's totally worth it.

So thanks again.