Getting enough trace minerals and salt: the pillar of death

[ginkgo]

Jon Barron has some very intelligent information on natural health on the internet. He also has a book about it. But I think that this guy blundered when he wrote this article: A Pillar of Salt: Baseline's Alternative Health Newsletter

He says that we do not get enough trace minerals in our diet. I do no know that a lot of our topsoil is gone. So let us go along with him on that for now. He says the answer is to eat sea salt. I know that sea salt is not as bad for you as regular salt. But that is like saying this. It is better for a rapist to use a condom. It will prevent STDs and pregnancy. So it is better but still if you if you rape someone with a condom in Texas, they will still execute you.

He talks about the history of salt. I read a 500 page book on the history of salt. Its value is similar to alcohol. They are both killers of life. If you need to perform surgery in the wild, you use alcohol to kill the bacteria before cutting the person open. Before refrigeration, many foods would go bad due to bacteria. So you use a lot of salt to kill the bacteria and the food was already dead. This could preserve the food. This was the only way to keep meat and fish from going bad right away.

Salt is not a food. Almost all foods have sodium. There is no need ever to eat salt. Just 4 ounces of it taken at one time will kill you. It is due to salt that makes it so you cannot drink ocean water and can die of dehydration on a raft surrounded by water. Salt comes from the sea which is loaded with lots of minerals. But instead of eating rocks (salt) you can eat seaweed for lots of trace minerals. Seaweed (sea vegetable) is food.

Biology teaches that animals consume foods and plants create foods out of non-foods like dirt (minerals), water, air and sunlight. The people in Japan and Okinawa are the longest living people in countries that record births. Now I am not saying that this is the only reason but they both consume lots of seaweed. Even sushi is made with seaweed. Being a food seaweed has lots of other good things in it like phytochemicals.

Thirty million dolllars have been spent studying the effects of ecklonia cava (a brown seaweed) on human health. It has many cardiovascular benefits. You can buy granulated kelp (a seaweed) and sprinkle it on foods and it does have a salty taste. So with all this stuff that Jon Barron has learned, it seems that he never learned simple biology that says that animals consume foods and plants create foods. Kelp also has plenty of sodium chloride and iodine in it but it is a food.

[andrew112]

I agree. we do not need salt. there is enough sodium in foods like vegetables, such as spinach for example, that the body needs to survive. spinach also contains lots of other vitamins and minerals that the body needs as well, such as fluoride--one cup of spinach contains 68 mcg of fluoride, which is very good for strengthening tooth enamel and preventing decay--along with eating a very healthy diet. the only nutrients that spinach does not contain are vitamin d and vitamin b12, but it contains everything else though.

spirulina seaweed is very good for the body and contains lots of protein as well as all of the amino acids. one tablespoon of spirulina seaweed contains 4 grams of complete protein.

[rocksupreme]

"Pillar of Death"? Nothing like a little sensationalism, eh?

I agree that many people, especially North Americans, get more salt than they need in their diets, and that this is probably unhealthy. But sodium is a vital mineral that has historically been deficient in some times and cultures. Salt was even used as currency for this reason.

One's required level of sodium intake also depends on activity. Athletes require more salt than non-athletes because they lose a lot of sodium through sweating.

I'm not saying everyone should go eat a handful of salt, but I don't think you can rightly say that salt is a "pillar of death" for all people in all places.

[funchy]

Salt isn't inherently evil. Salt is sodium chloride. You need sodium (Na) and chloride (Cl) for the most simple of functions, such as your nerves firing. When your nerve cell is stimulated, it passes the signal down by opening sodium channels to allow Na in and pushing potassium out. So we can't hate NaCl any more than we can hate potassium, sulphur, hydrogen, or carbon. They're necessary for life.

A little too much and your body's homeostasis processes kick in, adjusting how much water is/isn't retained in cells or kidneys. Your cells themselves have itty bitty pumps on the membrane to push things like sodium out so they don't get over saturated.

It's true that way too much overloads these systems, but how much is "too much" can vary by individuals. Nobody I know eats 4 ounces of salt at a sitting. A little, in my opinion, is fine. And I agree unprocessed sea salt is better than non-iodized over-processed pure white table salt.

Being a food seaweed has lots of other good things in it like phytochemicals.

In relation to salt, seaweed does contain noticeable sodium. It grows in salt water, after all.
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Seaweed, wakame, raw

[ginkgo]

In college books on nutrition there is no mention of sodium deficiency. Can you cite one example? Do you really think that God or nature did not put enough sodium in foods? Do you think that you need to get your iron from iron nails or iron ore?

In fact all of the MDAs (minimum daily allowance) are for minimums of vitamins and minerals. But for sodium it is a maximum daily allowance. Actually what you are mentioning is part of a lot of the confusion out there. Joel Fuhrman, M.D. has fasted thousands of people for over 30 days. They consumed no minerals (only pure distilled water) during that time.

Because salt is toxic the body is constantly trying to get rid it. During a fast your body can dump up to 80,000 mg of sodium (in salt) in a day. That is how people can lose 10 pounds of water weight in a week of fasting. The toxicity of excess sodium is relieved with lots of water. So you know that sweat and urine are salty.

But I guess you think that the body is too stupid to know how to hold onto minerals that it needs. But then how can they fast up to 50 days with no sodium intake. Note Dr Fuhrman will not fast anyone over 50 days. In cultures where they do not consume salt, their sweat and urine are NOT salty.

In Patricia Bragg's book on fasting she mentioned that she was climbing a mountain with several athletes. They took salt tablets and she did not take any. Almost near the top the athletes were having problems and were tired and she was not. IF the body sweated salt for 30 to 50 days during fasted, they would have no sodium and would die.

Food has everything you need except for vitamin D and B-12 as mentioned by andrew112. The reason they are missing is D is supposed to come from sunlight and B-12 comes from bacteria and things are very different than they used to be as far as bacteria. The body is smart. It keeps what it needs and gets rid of what it does not need. If you eat too much of any food, your stomach would burst (and you would die) before you get too much of any nutrient in it. But only 4 ounces (a quarter pounder) of salt taken at once would kill you.

Man has been here for 3 million years but no salt is detected in skeletons of people from over 10,000 years ago. So they figuire that is when people started consuming salt.

[andrew112]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

In college books on nutrition there is no mention of sodium deficiency. Can you cite one example? Do you really think that God or nature did not put enough sodium in foods? Do you think that you need to get your iron from iron nails or iron ore?

In fact all of the MDAs (minimum daily allowance) are for minimums of vitamins and minerals. But for sodium it is a maximum daily allowance. Actually what you are mentioning is part of a lot of the confusion out there. Joel Fuhrman, M.D. has fasted thousands of people for over 30 days. They consumed no minerals (only pure distilled water) during that time.

Because salt is toxic the body is constantly trying to get rid it. During a fast your body can dump up to 80,000 mg of sodium (in salt) in a day. That is how people can lose 10 pounds of water weight in a week of fasting. The toxicity of excess sodium is relieved with lots of water. So you know that sweat and urine are salty.

But I guess you think that the body is too stupid to know how to hold onto minerals that it needs. But then how can they fast up to 50 days with no sodium intake. Note Dr Fuhrman will not fast anyone over 50 days. In cultures where they do not consume salt, their sweat and urine are NOT salty.

In Patricia Bragg's book on fasting she mentioned that she was climbing a mountain with several athletes. They took salt tablets and she did not take any. Almost near the top the athletes were having problems and were tired and she was not. IF the body sweated salt for 30 to 50 days during fasted, they would have no sodium and would die.

Food has everything you need except for vitamin D and B-12 as mentioned by andrew112. The reason they are missing is D is supposed to come from sunlight and B-12 comes from bacteria and things are very different than they used to be as far as bacteria. The body is smart. It keeps what it needs and gets rid of what it does not need. If you eat too much of any food, your stomach would burst (and you would die) before you get too much of any nutrient in it. But only 4 ounces (a quarter pounder) of salt taken at once would kill you.

Man has been here for 3 million years but no salt is detected in skeletons of people from over 10,000 years ago. So they figuire that is when people started consuming salt.

I agree, but there is a fine line that exists to keep people from taking the whole "foods that are toxic to the body" thing too far. I myself would take things way too far. I once went on a diet that only consisted of purely protein and green vegetables. I was getting zero fat and the only nutrients I was getting was protein, vitamins and minerals. I stayed on this diet for a few weeks before realizing that the body does need fat. The reason why I went on this diet was because I wanted to be all muscle and zero fat. I once heard of a doctor who went on a diet similar to that and completely cured himself of the disease (I forget which one) that he had, but then he died of leukemia because he was not getting any fats at all.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by funchy

Salt isn't inherently evil. Salt is sodium chloride. You need sodium (Na) and chloride (Cl) for the most simple of functions, such as your nerves firing. When your nerve cell is stimulated, it passes the signal down by opening sodium channels to allow Na in and pushing potassium out. So we can't hate NaCl any more than we can hate potassium, sulphur, hydrogen, or carbon. They're necessary for life.

A little too much and your body's homeostasis processes kick in, adjusting how much water is/isn't retained in cells or kidneys. Your cells themselves have itty bitty pumps on the membrane to push things like sodium out so they don't get over saturated.

It's true that way too much overloads these systems, but how much is "too much" can vary by individuals. Nobody I know eats 4 ounces of salt at a sitting. A little, in my opinion, is fine. And I agree unprocessed sea salt is better than non-iodized over-processed pure white table salt.



In relation to salt, seaweed does contain noticeable sodium. It grows in salt water, after all.
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Seaweed, wakame, raw

I am not saying that minerals are bad for you. I am saying that it is toxic to get iron from iron nails as any chemist (like me) knows. What I am talking about is the SOURCE of that mineral. What you are saying is also part of the confusion about this since it is a little more complex than it appears.

Organic minerals come from foods. Inorganic minerals come from non-foods like iron nails, magnesium in airplanes etc. Is there a difference? Yes but this is more involved which is why people get confused. My point was that seaweed has a lot of sodium chloride but the source is a food. So that means that it is organic sodium. So what is the difference.

Here is the difference. Your body needs more potassium than sodium. That is why foods have more potassium than sodium. So am I saying that potassium is better than sodium? No! If you take less than 4 ounce of potassium chloride (another salt), it will kill you. It is inorganic potassium. Now isn't this all mumbo jumbo with there being no difference.

The FDA does not allow potassium supplements to have more than 99 mg of potassium. If you go to a nutritionist or doctor they will never give you more than 200 mg of potassium since you may need to be rushed to the hospital, taking more than that.

Now it sounds like I am saying (and the FDA) that this mineral is toxic. Not at all. It is the source of the potassium. I was in a store and a woman (store owner) was telling me that too much potassium is a danger (like from a doctor or in IV). Then I told her that this little pint of orange juice that she is selling has over 1,000 mgs of potassium. She said "that is different." So the iron in a nail is different than that in spinach.

This is definitely not the subject of a stupid people's forum. Now will that same doctor that knows the danger of too much potassium tell you that it is OK to eat the following food? Yes! The potassium in them in organic. OK so the doctor cannot give you more than 200 mg of potassium. Because of Latin potassium is "K" and sodium is "Na".

I have eaten the folowing. Two avocados contain 2,400 mg of potassium or K. That is a lot more than 200. Three bananas have 1,200 mg of potassium. Four large potatoes have 3,200 mg of potassium. So how can this be? It is due to the source of the minerals. The food source supplies potassium bound up with other chemicals and so it is organic potassium. The potassium chloride is inorganic potassium. Again potassium chloride is a salt just like common table salt (sodium chloride). This is why I keep mentioning if the source is a food or not.

[Antarananda]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I am not saying that minerals are bad for you. I am saying that it is toxic to get iron from iron nails as any chemist (like me) knows. What I am talking about is the SOURCE of that mineral. What you are saying is also part of the confusion about this since it is a little more complex than it appears.

Organic minerals come from foods. Inorganic minerals come from non-foods like iron nails, magnesium in airplanes etc. Is there a difference? Yes but this is more involved which is why people get confused. My point was that seaweed has a lot of sodium chloride but the source is a food. So that means that it is organic sodium. So what is the difference.

Here is the difference. Your body needs more potassium than sodium. That is why foods have more potassium than sodium. So am I saying that potassium is better than sodium? No! If you take less than 4 ounce of potassium chloride (another salt), it will kill you. It is inorganic potassium. Now isn't this all mumbo jumbo with there being no difference.

The FDA does not allow potassium supplements to have more than 99 mg of potassium. If you go to a nutritionist or doctor they will never give you more than 200 mg of potassium since you may need to be rushed to the hospital, taking more than that.

Now it sounds like I am saying (and the FDA) that this mineral is toxic. Not at all. It is the source of the potassium. I was in a store and a woman (store owner) was telling me that too much potassium is a danger (like from a doctor or in IV). Then I told her that this little pint of orange juice that she is selling has over 1,000 mgs of potassium. She said "that is different." So the iron in a nail is different than that in spinach.

This is definitely not the subject of a stupid people's forum. Now will that same doctor that knows the danger of too much potassium tell you that it is OK to eat the following food? Yes! The potassium in them in organic. OK so the doctor cannot give you more than 200 mg of potassium. Because of Latin potassium is "K" and sodium is "Na".

I have eaten the folowing. Two avocados contain 2,400 mg of potassium or K. That is a lot more than 200. Three bananas have 1,200 mg of potassium. Four large potatoes have 3,200 mg of potassium. So how can this be? It is due to the source of the minerals. The food source supplies potassium bound up with other chemicals and so it is organic potassium. The potassium chloride is inorganic potassium. Again potassium chloride is a salt just like common table salt (sodium chloride). This is why I keep mentioning if the source is a food or not.[/SIZE]

So many inaccuracies here, ginkgo.

A healthy, normal person can safely ingest about 3500 to 5000 mg daily of potassium through diet. The only reason for the 99 mg restriction is that it is playing it safe in the event that someone takes multiple doses a day and forgets, and redoses. The supplement label itself recommends taking each 99 mg dose 1-5 times a day, which comes to almost 500 mg. Where did you get the idea that 200 mg can be deadly?

I suggest you read up about hyperkalemia, hypernatremia, and how the Na⁺/K⁺-ATPase transport pump functions, from a good textbook of medical physiology. The minerals are no more toxic in their inorganic form as compared with the organic form. For a patient with renal failure, eating that banana is as dangerous as sprinkling the sodium-free KCl salt on his food.

Unsually high amounts of ingested salt (like the 4 oz amounts you mention) are dangerous not because of any inherent toxicity in the inorganic mineral, but because they create a hyperosmolar state in the body, literally sucking out the fluid from inside your cells and dumping the fluid into the blood to compensate.

[ginkgo]

I am talking about taking the potassium at one time. That limit of 200 mg of potassium is from the experience of doctors. It is not theoretical. They do not give a theoretical reason but just say that they have learned that it causes a need for them to be taken to the hospital. I did not say it causes death, just a need to go to the hospital so the doctors never go higher than that.

I gave my theory since I know that people can eat an avocado with 1,200 mg with no problem. I am not talking about eating an avocado throughout the day, but eating it at one time. I guess that you know that all doses in medicine are amount divided by time. It is meaningless to give an amount like 3 pills. It would be like 3 pills every 4 hours.

This is math and chemistry. The FDA limit is 99 mg per pill of potassium, not 99 mg every week or day. So they limit that whereas you can take a 1,000 mg pill of vitamin C. Now divide 1,200 by 99 and you get over 12. So the part about organic is not official information on medicine, but filling in the blanks. So 1,200 mg from an avocado at one time is OK. That is 12 times the pill limit. But the FDA does not limit the number of avocados eaten at one time. But modern medicine does not address this difference.

You can eat 2 of them and that is 2,400 mg of potassium. That is why I give the number amount in foods. If you drink a quart of orange juice at one time (not throughout the day), that is over 2,000 mg of K (potassiun) at one time. That is OK. That is excessive as far as drinking but after an hour of karate class, my uniform would be wet with sweat and I must have been dehydrated. I would go next door and buy a quart of OJ and drink it in about 3 minutes.

You are right about the 4 ounces of salt. There it is about the amount, not if it is organic. It is about 110,000 mg of sodium taken at one time. There it is about amount not organic or inorganic. But there is an exception to this. You could not get anywhere near that amount of sodium from food at one time. To get that amount of sodium from food (at one time) would require you to eat over 100 pounds of a food. So I am not saying that that amount of organic sodium is OK but impossible to take.

If you look at the amounts of potassium and sodium in food, you see that a large potato may have 800 mg of K but only about 30 mg of Na (sodium). Again I say that dealing with whether it is organic or not, you are dealing with the amount in foods. Salt and potassium chloride are about 50% sodium or potassium, but no food is near 50% of any mineral so the the food would burst your stomach before getting that much sodium (110,000 mg of Na or 4 ounces of salt) into your body.

Modern medicine does limit the amount of potassium in pills, but not in foods. Is it because of the organic vs inorganic? Officially, no. But there is no answer given to this. It is not addressed. It is ignored. There is no medical reason for why 99 mg of potasium is the limit per pill but over 20 times that (at one time) is OK from food. Of course a pill of potassium delivers that amount into your system at once but before you get the potasium in an avocado, it must be digested.

So modern medicine does not recognize any difference between getting a nutrient in a pill or from a food but many of us recognize the difference. No one has disagreed with my initial premise that it is better to get trace minerals from seaweed since it is a food, than from salt that is not a food. Jon Barron never considered that, saying that only salt could give you a lot of trace minerals. Actually in the Amazon rainforest certain parts are flooded and when the water recedes, it dumps lots of trace minerals onto the ground. So the foods growing there are loaded with trace minerals. The camu camu fruit only grows where the land is flooded and the trees are under water for months. Dr Oz (MD on Oprah) does suggest getting nutrients from foods, not supplements.