Going from vegetarian to vegan

[Creative]

I have decided to go vegan after reading some eyeopening articles, one of them was this. Basically I was quite ignorant of the awful treatment of cows and after discovering that cows are mechanically raped to keep them producing milk I am kicking myself for not making this decision earlier.

I know there are a lot of vegans in this forum and need some help. My diet is already pretty limited and so I need ideas on how to fill the gap which will be left once I eliminate dairy. I would love to find a cruelty free source of dairy but it does look unlikely at the moment (I live in the UK so please let me know if there is anywhere).

Right now I don't eat any refined or processed foods apart from wholemeal bread and the odd packet of crisps, I don't eat eggs or any type of meat, I don't eat garlic or onions, no soya and generally eat a 70-80% raw diet. I love fruits, nuts and vegetables and eat as many as possible.

Tomorrow I am going to go out and buy things to replace the dairy products I have been eating- I am thinking Almond milk and cashew butter but no idea how to replace yoghurt. I had problems with soya and can't eat it, and I used to make lovely cakes using yoghurt in the recipe so either need a vegan alternative or new recipes.

Please help me as I am a little nervous that I won't do this right. My current diet has been very successful in putting my lupus into remission and so I don't want to mess it up!

[funchy]

Good for you for making this conscious, healthy, caring choice! If you feel yourself wavering, read up on how veal is made. It's a byproduct of the dairy industry, since male calves are useless. Nothing more sad that tearing a calf from his mother the day he's born, locking him in a crate or little "calf-house" unable to graze fields or touch other cows. The day he's let out of the little box is the day he's shipped to his death.

What are you trying to replace when you say you want a replacement for milk? Milk is not a necessity to any healthy diet, so cutting it out won't hurt you. (We are the only animal to eat another animal's milk and the only animal who continue to eat milk past infancy!)

Are you looking for replacements for favorite recipes? Something with a similar taste? Something for baking?

I was never a big milk person, so I find ricemilk or soymilk adequate. There is fake cheese, but so far I haven't found any I like enough to recommend. I have better luck not trying to made SAD-type recipes, and instead I just open a cookbook designed for cooking animal-product free.

Good luck to you!

[Creative]

Originally Posted by funchy

Are you looking for replacements for favorite recipes? Something with a similar taste? Something for baking?

Good luck to you!

I do have a favourite recipe for carrot cake which uses yoghurt- wondering if there is a vegan alternative as the cake is perfect and I am loathe to not make it ever. I don't drink milk but I do have butter sometimes.

I feel awful as I know what veal is but never really realised that it all links to the dairy industry. As a Hindu not only do I value all living beings lives we see the cow as sacred therefore I can't possibly have milk if it causes a cow suffering. I would happily use milk from a cow raised happily by ISKCON where the aim is not to milk her to death, kill her and then eat her.

I have just told a friend about my intention to go vegan and I got the old 'where will you get calcium'? She seemed like she'd think about at least having less milk after I filled her in on my reasons. I feel I must spread the word as my parents didn't know about this either.

Luckily most of my cosmetics are vegan- now I shall make sure they all are!

[aelle]

Congratulations for your decision, and good luck. I would suggest getting some vegan cookbooks. They will help you re-learn a new cooking style, instead of thinking in terms of replacement - which can indeed feel limiting and disappointing. A few favorites of mine are Veganomicon, Yellow Rose Recipes, the Asian Vegan Kitchen... I'm big on spices and flavourful foods! Veganomicon especially contains a lot of supermarket-friendly recipes (therefore based on produce, beans, whole foods in general), and clearly labels soy-free recipes too. You'll soon find that there is no reason to feel limited or bored on a vegan diet!

As for your carrot cake dilemma, there are several ways to replace yogurt. Try adding a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to plant milk to make it curdle. If the yogurt is there just for cohesion, you can replace it by equivalent volume of apple sauce. It is also quite possible that you can skip the yogurt alltogether, since carrots already contain the pectin that create binding. Have fun experimenting in the kitchen!

[Creative]

It's my second day today and the only thing I miss is butter on my bread. The cashew butter was just too strong for me and didn't have that nice soft taste. Is there something vegan like butter?

Luckily I stopped eating chocolate and most cheeses a long time ago. Will have to find vegan jacket potato fillings now...

[greendaisy]

Originally Posted by Creative

It's my second day today and the only thing I miss is butter on my bread. The cashew butter was just too strong for me and didn't have that nice soft taste. Is there something vegan like butter?

Luckily I stopped eating chocolate and most cheeses a long time ago. Will have to find vegan jacket potato fillings now...

Congratulations. There are lots of vegan blogs out there now, as well as some great vegan and/or raw online communities. It really helped me to immerse myself in as much vegan information as possible early on. I did lots of reading every day, and that process helped me as I shifted some of my habits. These are also great places to find recipes or ask about substitutions, etc.

There are some good vegan versions of butter, but finding soy-free versions may take some research. For your potatoes, try a bit of olive oil, some nutritional yeast, and black pepper.


Good luck!

[funchy]

What people crave in butter may be the high fat content and probably the salt. The texture and fat content might be replaced by a animal-product free margarine. (Just watch out because they're sneaking fish oil into everything to cater to the current Omega3-6 fad). There was a pretty good one free of meat or hydrogenated oils called Smart Balance or something like that. There are alot of 'butter-like' options out there, if you're willing to read through the labels.

For cooking, olive oil is great.

For putting on bread, why not also try things that aren't the fatty "butter" experience. For example, check out apple butter, gourmet jams, or peanut butter.

I had to google to find out what jacket potatoes are, and if my internet was right, you're looking for toppings for a baked potato? Out of habit, I rarely have baked potatoes, but I did find a ton of recipe ideas online:
The Gluten Free Vegan Challenge: Vegan Twice Baked Potato Recipe | Book of Yum
Vegan baked potato toppings [Archive] - VeggieBoards - Vegetarian Forum
vegancooking: Baked Potato Potluck - Ideas?


The internet has been a huge help to me in finding wonderful critter-free recipes. Just put "vegan" or "vegetarian" next to the food name and google it.

[funchy]

Here's a great link I wanted to share, both for nutrition/recipe information as well as support:

Vegan Fitness :: Home

[ginkgo]

There's no need to fear, Underdog is here. There is no need to be nervous. That comes from being in the future instead of the present. Why not look forward to tasting things that you never tasted before with more health than ever. Here are lots of raw vegan desserts.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by funchy

I had to google to find out what jacket potatoes are, and if my internet was right, you're looking for toppings for a baked potato? Out of habit, I rarely have baked potatoes, but I did find a ton of recipe ideas online:
The Gluten Free Vegan Challenge: Vegan Twice Baked Potato Recipe | Book of Yum
Vegan baked potato toppings [Archive] - VeggieBoards - Vegetarian Forum
vegancooking: Baked Potato Potluck - Ideas?


The internet has been a huge help to me in finding wonderful critter-free recipes. Just put "vegan" or "vegetarian" next to the food name and google it.

Aw thanks funchy- I forget jacket potato is a UK term, those links seem interesting and I'll have to give some of them a go.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

There's no need to fear, Underdog is here. There is no need to be nervous. That comes from being in the future instead of the present. Why not look forward to tasting things that you never tasted before with more health than ever. Here are lots of raw vegan desserts.

I am suddenly very hungry... lol thanks Ginkgo

[RubberDuck]

Creative: Inspired by your initial post, I did a little study on milk. Actually quite shocking what I found.... I'm surely going vegan as well, and no more milk for the kids...

http://www.notmilk.com/

Paratuberculosis And Crohn's Disease: Got Milk?

etc. etc......

RD

[liamona]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

Creative: Inspired by your initial post, I did a little study on milk. Actually quite shocking what I found.... I'm surely going vegan as well, and no more milk for the kids...

The NOTMILK Homepage! (MILK is a bad-news substance!)

Paratuberculosis And Crohn's Disease: Got Milk?

I'd take the stuff from Robert Cohen's NotMilk.com site with a large grain of salt:

"Beware of Robert Cohen aka the NotMilk Man"
VegSource Article

Be sure to check out the other links at the bottom of the article.

[RubberDuck]

Originally Posted by liamona

I'd take the stuff from Robert Cohen's NotMilk.com site with a large grain of salt:

"Beware of Robert Cohen aka the NotMilk Man"
VegSource Article

Be sure to check out the other links at the bottom of the article.

Thanks for the tip on Robert Cohen.

I mainly studied the "Paratuberculosis And Crohn's Disease: Got Milk?"
by Michael Greger, MD. This seems to be legitimate enough, with lots of references.

RD

[Kasha]

I am with you on this Creative. I no longer want to inflict pain and suffering on any other living being. But I cannot help but feel that eggs are ok - they also make me feel really good after eating them.

What do you all think?

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Kasha

I am with you on this Creative. I no longer want to inflict pain and suffering on any other living being. But I cannot help but feel that eggs are ok

Depends on your beliefs and the kind of egg you buy.

Most eggs are from hens in cages so small the hen can't open her wings. They're starved in cycles to stimulate more egg production. When making new hens, usually male chicks are destroyed, since the breed of laying hen doesn't produce enough meat to make it worthwhile. Industry standard is to usually toss the live male baby chicks into a macerator which is like a chipper shredder. As soon as an adult hen stops laying enough, she is shipped to processing. It is legal and normal to ship hens in crates too small to stand or open wings in, open on all sides, stacked in big layers on the open flatbed truck.

Because of the stress and conditions, the hens are often fed a "therapeutic dose" of antibiotics at all times to keep them aliive & producing. What mom eats ends up in your egg.

Hens are given a drug to make the unhealthy looking eggs yellow, which obvious ends up in the egg you eat.

It's coming out that arsenic is being found in chickens (both meat and egg). I forget why. Some dumb reason having to do with greed, probably.
NWAnews.com :: Northwest Arkansas' News Source

Organic may be free of many of those problems but don't assume that organic really means natural chickens living in natural settings. You still have high-density confinement or cages. You still have animals bred for unnatural levels of production.

Organic AND free-range is a little better, but unfortunately "free range" is not defined as running free all of the time with ample space. It can still involve high density and caging most of the time & still could involve the starvation periods.

I was getting eggs from my mother's pet chickens. She buys only hens and the birds live long healthy lives scratching in the yard, being a chicken. No starvation periods. No drugs of any kind. The eggs were not fertilized since no rooster lived in the yard, so the eggs were worthless to the hens.

I will tell you something I was surprised to find out: I can tell the difference between the standard store eggs and mom's pet chicken eggs, in color and flavor. If you've ever wondered why eggs sometimes seem bland by themselves, try a real egg from a real chicken living like a chicken should.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by Kasha

I am with you on this Creative. I no longer want to inflict pain and suffering on any other living being. But I cannot help but feel that eggs are ok - they also make me feel really good after eating them.

What do you all think?

I tend to think eggs are the same as meat and therefore never ate them anyway. I suppose everyone feels different about it.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

Creative: Inspired by your initial post, I did a little study on milk. Actually quite shocking what I found.... I'm surely going vegan as well, and no more milk for the kids...

The NOTMILK Homepage! (MILK is a bad-news substance!)

Paratuberculosis And Crohn's Disease: Got Milk?

etc. etc......

RD

There are plenty of issues with milk but I'm not sure those sites are unbiased. Many people feel loads better after quitting dairy and I suspect that is because of digestive problems. It is my sixth day of veganism and I think with some planning it will be a smooth transition. Shame there are no cruelty-free dairys though as I do not feel any better without my dairy. My reasons for being vegan are 100% ethical. Seems like a gap that needs to be filled in the market. I would happily have dairy from cows who aren't slaughtered or have their calves taken away from them.

[Creative]

Fascinating article on Uk dairy farming. Pretty useful read when in the early days of being vegan. Just made me even more determined to stay on course

[SaySay]

Originally Posted by Kasha

I am with you on this Creative. I no longer want to inflict pain and suffering on any other living being. But I cannot help but feel that eggs are ok - they also make me feel really good after eating them.

What do you all think?

Google around for undercover video's of 'free range' and 'organic' egg farms. You will be surprised at what passes under these titles, and the horrible cruelty involved.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Kasha

I am with you on this Creative. I no longer want to inflict pain and suffering on any other living being. But I cannot help but feel that eggs are ok - they also make me feel really good after eating them.

What do you all think?

Originally Posted by SaySay

Google around for undercover video's of 'free range' and 'organic' egg farms. You will be surprised at what passes under these titles, and the horrible cruelty involved.

Why should someone who wants to eat eggs from humanely raised chickens do that, when there's better alternatives to those farms (like funchy's mother's eggs)?

It's strange that any time meat or eggs are brought up, people rush in with the same old information about factory farms.

It would be more productive to direct meat and egg eaters' attention to the good sources rather than keep on pointing out the bad ones that none of us want.

Kasha, if you can't keep chickens yourself, try to find a small farmer locally, someone whose farm you can visit so you can check the condition that the chickens live under.

[SaySay]

Originally Posted by liamona

Why should someone who wants to eat eggs from humanely raised chickens do that, when there's better alternatives to those farms (like funchy's mother's eggs)?

It's strange that any time meat or eggs are brought up, people rush in with the same old information about factory farms.

It would be more productive to direct meat and egg eaters' attention to the good sources rather than keep on pointing out the bad ones that none of us want.

Kasha, if you can't keep chickens yourself, try to find a small farmer locally, someone whose farm you can visit so you can check the condition that the chickens live under.

I know a lot of people who eat eggs, and since I'm vegan, those people are always quick to remind me how they ONLY buy the organic, free range eggs. They stress it so much, make a big fuss about it, like it's some great point of pride for them/

They buy their eggs from the grocery store/Trader Joe's/health food store/co-op. The eggs that come from farms that claim free range status to make people feel all heartwarm about their purchase, but that actually treat their chickens to a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ life of over production and over crowding.

The problem with your brand (yes I read your posts, I know what you promote) of happy meat is that 90% of people are NOT like you. They want the label to make them feel better, they are not willing to actually do the work.

As well, if you eat eggs/meat/dairy as a habit, you are a eggs/meat/dairy eater. That means if you go out to a restaurant you will order an egg/meat/dairy dish.

Really Liamona, do you never eat out? Do you ONLY eat at restaurants that source their animal products from farms you have visited? Really? Even when you travel? Really?

If so, you are an incredibly diligent and disciplined person. 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of people are NOT.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

Creative: Inspired by your initial post, I did a little study on milk. Actually quite shocking what I found.... I'm surely going vegan as well, and no more milk for the kids...

The NOTMILK Homepage! (MILK is a bad-news substance!)

Paratuberculosis And Crohn's Disease: Got Milk?

etc. etc......

RD

That is great news. As a substitute for cereal or other things, you can get almond milk, soy milk, hemp milk or rice milk at the health food store instead of the fat and sick food store.

[Creative]

I made porridge with Rice Dream and it was far superior to when made with milk. I have some oat milk to try at some point. Veganism is great as I am trying all kinds of new stuff!

[vmiller]

Originally Posted by Creative

I have decided to go vegan after reading some eyeopening articles, one of them was this. Basically I was quite ignorant of the awful treatment of cows and after discovering that cows are mechanically raped to keep them producing milk I am kicking myself for not making this decision earlier.

Keep in mind that there are also responsible farmers out there who treat their livestock with respect.

As a vegan, it may be difficult for you to get all of the amino acids you need to support healthy brain function. I suggest you read "The Diet Cure" or "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross so that you're fully aware of what you're getting into.

With that said, I am disgusted by irresponsible farming practices as well and respect and admire your choice.

[SaySay]

Originally Posted by vmiller

Keep in mind that there are also responsible farmers out there who treat their livestock with respect.

There is nothing respectful about a lifelong cycle of forced impregnation, carrying a baby to term (9 months and difficult on the body), having that new baby taken away after a few days (yes, cows are emotionally bonded to their offspring, and yes the offspring are taken away so that they don't drink the milk that was meant for THEM), being mechanically milked [overmilked], and then being forcibly impregnated for the process to begin again.

Cows ONLY make milk through pregnancy. This is a reproductive process.

There is NO SUCH THING as humane dairy.

Originally Posted by vmiller

As a vegan, it may be difficult for you to get all of the amino acids you need to support healthy brain function. I suggest you read "The Diet Cure" or "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross so that you're fully aware of what you're getting into.

You can get all the amino acids you need from plant foods, and fairly easily as well. If you are eating a whole foods and varied diet, you will be fine. It's quite simple, and you should be eating this way regardless of herbivory or omnivory.

Originally Posted by vmiller

With that said, I am disgusted by irresponsible farming practices as well and respect and admire your choice.

I'm just curious, what (in your opinion) is the opposite of irresponsible farming? Besides TRULY free-range eggs (which are very, very rare and not widely commercially available), what sort of animal exploitation system could be respectful, in your opinion?

[vmiller]

SaySay,

Before I spill out my beliefs about nutrition and humanity towards animals, I know there are a lot of vegetarians and vegans here on this forum, so please respect my opinion as I respect yours.

The example you give about dairy farming sounds to me like a conventional operation and not that of a small farmer that appreciates and operates according to natural and organic practices. It all comes down to knowing the source you buy your food from and feeling comfortable with the practices they use. I don't eat or drink dairy, so I haven't had the need to research this and don't have any examples of farms to provide that definitely don't operate this way.

In general, I base many of my health beliefs on nature and evolution. While science has given us tremendous advancement, I don't believe we're smart enough to outsmart nature and invent our own diets. Many people suggest that vegetarianism and veganism are modern inventions. In other words, there where no prehistoric cultures that ate a completely vegetarian or vegan diet. I'm no expert on evolution, but I agree with this sentiment. I also have a lot of respect for the work of Dr. Weston A Price who studied many native cultures in the early 1930's. He found no cultures that were completely vegetarian and studied many cultures with vibrant health that consumed significant amounts of animal fat and protein.

Some people do well on vegetarian diets and some don't. We all have unique nutritional needs. I know my own needs and know that I would crash and burn on a vegetarian diet. Consider the Eskimos who eat 90% animal protein and fat. I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks they'd thrive on a vegetarian diet.

The Native American Indians are very spiritual people. Before they were introduce to the "white man's diet", they lived on a significant amount of animal food and deeply appreciated the sacrifice of life that they believied was required for their survival. Based on millions of years of evolution, this is simply how life on our planet works. We're all faced with the choice of sustaining our own health at the cost of animal life, or sacrificing our own health for the benefit of animal life. As I said, some people can do well on a vegetarian diet, and more power to them, but not everyone can. As one of them, I make the choice to sustain my own health at an unfortunate cost to animals. As the Native American Indians did, I greatly appreciate my food. I personally don't see the value in sacrificing my own health for the benefit of animals, and I think doing so is contrary to the millions of years of evolution that got us here.

As I said, I don't consume dairy, but I do eat meat. I buy from farmers who let their livestock freely roam and eat from pastures as they would in nature and don't feed them hormones, antibiotics, or use any other methods to accelerate their growth or production. While I'm sure many vegetarians would still consider this inhumane, I feel that I'm doing what's right for myself while contributing as little as possible to cruel treatment of livestock.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by SaySay

I know a lot of people who eat eggs, and since I'm vegan, those people are always quick to remind me how they ONLY buy the organic, free range eggs. They stress it so much, make a big fuss about it, like it's some great point of pride for them/

They buy their eggs from the grocery store/Trader Joe's/health food store/co-op. The eggs that come from farms that claim free range status to make people feel all heartwarm about their purchase, but that actually treat their chickens to a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ life of over production and over crowding.

That's really great, isn't it? Even a few years ago most people didn't know or care about the "free range" label.

You ought to be proud that they're trying to do the right thing by buying the most humanely raised eggs they know about (but let me guess, you're not?).

The problem with your brand (yes I read your posts, I know what you promote) of happy meat is that 90% of people are NOT like you. They want the label to make them feel better, they are not willing to actually do the work.

90%? Do you have the hard data to back up that figure?

If you think 90% of people don't want to make the effort, how is it that obsessing and screeching about the conditions of factory farm animals is going to change that?

In my experience, the more you talk about the awful conditions, the less people want to hear, especially the ones who need to hear about it. It's LoA in action! The more you talk, the less they hear, the more they keep burying their head in the sand and buying the bad stuff.

Back to the original question, Kasha specifically asked where she could get good eggs from—thank goodness she's curious to find out. I would encourage those kind of questions and answer them to the best of my ability, instead of side-stepping the question with a screed on factory farms.

It seems like this is the way to help people make genuine changes. It's too bad it's not happening as fast as we like, isn't it.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by vmiller

I suggest you read "The Diet Cure" or "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross so that you're fully aware of what you're getting into.

Those are a couple of really great books on nutrition! I recommend them all the time.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by vmiller

We're all faced with the choice of sustaining our own health at the cost of animal life, or sacrificing our own health for the benefit of animal life. As I said, some people can do well on a vegetarian diet, and more power to them, but not everyone can. As one of them, I make the choice to sustain my own health at an unfortunate cost to animals. As the Native American Indians did, I greatly appreciate my food. I personally don't see the value in sacrificing my own health for the benefit of animals, and I think doing so is contrary to the millions of years of evolution that got us here.

I love what you wrote in your post. I agree, and found out the hard way that I don't do too well with eliminating animal protein and especially animal fats from my diet.

Ironically, my experience with eliminating 90 to 95% of meat and dairy from my diet left me sick, fat, and with digestion problems. So now I need to consume at least a small amount of meat with each meal or else I suffer from low blood sugar, cravings for sweets, etc. (just a general unpleasant "off" feeling).

I think if I hadn't tried to go vegetarian in my thirties, I would be fine with eating less meat now, or at least skipping a meal without it. Karma's a ♥♥♥♥♥, ain't it.