pet peeve: why does everyone's idea of healthy eating seem to be veganism?

[DQueens]

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. What is up with this? I support the idea of veganism and vegetarianism but i feel that these are not the ultimate solutions to a diet that is poor and unstructered. If one knows that they are eating poorly and feels that the only change they need to make to their diet in order to become a healthy and balanced eater is to give up meat, then they are sorely mistaken! Veganism and vegetarianism can both be very healthy nutrition lifestyles, however they take a lot of planning and effort in order to work. I think that on this forum people are closed to the idea that making over your diet simply means adhering more closely to the food guide, eating more balanced meals, lowering fat and cholesterol and lowering white sugar and carb intake. I'm sure that many of you have fabulous reasons for converting to veggies, I just want to point out to the few of you who feel that cutting out meats gives you free rein over cakes and ice cream, that the world of meat-shunning does not always bring with it excellent nutrition.

[Erin Pavlina]

I've been vegan about 9 years. I don't find it takes a lot of planning or effort.

People go vegan for a variety of reasons, some of the health, some for ethics, some spiritual, and some religious, and some for the environment.

it's true that people can be vegan junkaholics but there are probably more people who are vegan and eat very healthy. Just as someone can abuse a diet full of meat, people can abuse a vegan diet by eating cakes, candy, and cookies and justifying it by saying, "well at least it's vegan."

In fact, most people have this preconceived idea that vegans are emaciated, thin, and sickly. That always confused me.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

In fact, most people have this preconceived idea that vegans are emaciated, thin, and sickly. That always confused me.

Some us don't know enough vegans to assess them accurately.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by DQueens

I just want to point out to the few of you who feel that cutting out meats gives you free rein over cakes and ice cream, that the world of meat-shunning does not always bring with it excellent nutrition.

You've seen people like this on these forums? I often joke to my junkfood eating friends that technically his chip and soda diet is vegan, but I think you will find the amount of healthy eating vegans far outweighs the healthy eating meat eaters, comparatively.

Counter-peeve: Just because you eat meat, doesnt automatically make you healthier, or recieving of more vitamins and minerals than a vegan or vegetarian. In fact, most of my meat eating friends (and america in general) engorge theirselves on meat, eating way more than you should per serving, while neglecting the vegetables that you would need in addition.

[John Hill]

Not everyone's idea of healthy eating is vegan, as a matter of fact if you randomly chose 100 people walking along the street I'd be surprised if more than 1 was vegan.

I live a healthy and active lifestyle and choose to eat meat as it makes me feel strong and supplies me with the type of protein that works for me. This doesn't make me any less spiritual than a vegan. Vegans choose their own style of eating for the reasons that sit well with them and they have that choice.

I live in a country where 95% of the population is Buddhist and Buddhist people are very spiritual but in the years I have lived here I have never met 1 single buddhist vegan.

Eat whatever makes you feel comfortable, you have that right. Eating only vegan limits the number of healthy protein sources available to you.

If you are an "O" blood type in particular you may need to supplement your diet with additional vitamin and mineral supplements to stay healthy. "O" blood types which account for about 46% of the population date back over 40,000 years and are the oldest of todays blood types, they were the original hunters and have not only evolved but thrived on eating meat. "A" blood types accounting for approximately 42% of the population have weaker digestive abilities than "O's" and therefore are much more suited to diets higher in vegetables and lower in protein making them prime candidates for a vegan lifestyle.

John

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I've been vegan about 9 years. I don't find it takes a lot of planning or effort.

Erin, do you, or same question to any vegan's or vegetarians, have to take any supplement in you diet to supplement anything missing in their diets?

Or do you manage to get it all from your food.

And out of interest what sort of menu of things would you eat in a day to constitute an average?

Curious G

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Erin, do you, or same question to any vegan's or vegetarians, have to take any supplement in you diet to supplement anything missing in their diets?

The only supplement you need as a vegan is vitamin B12. Everything else can be gotten from natural food. This looks like a good site that covers vegan nutrition: Veganism in a Nutshell.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Baltar

The only supplement you need as a vegan is vitamin B12. Everything else can be gotten from natural food. This looks like a good site that covers vegan nutrition: Veganism in a Nutshell.

Thank you Baltar, quite an informative site.

G

[Cron]

Originally Posted by DQueens

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. What is up with this?

I think it is because a whole foods vegan diet is what works .
( for health, fitness, the environment, animal cruelty )

Do not take anyone's word for it. There is a great book called THE CHINA STUDY was makes a the best scientific case for an animal free diet. It is based on an incredibly huge and incredibly scientific study made by one of the U.S's top scientists over many years

Amazon.com: china study

[Erin Pavlina]

I believe a whole foods vegan diet could very well be the optimal diet. I know I eat a little too much vegan junk food than I should, but I'm working on that.

A typical daily menu around here (when we all sit down to eat together):

Breakfast: Tofu scramble, fruit

Lunch: Tofurkey sandwiches (tofurkey, lettuce, tomato, avocado, vegan mayo, and mustard on rye) with Baked Lays

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

Dessert: Sorbet or an all-fruit popsicle for the kids

Snacks: nuts, fruit

But this is just an example. Sometimes we're heavier on the carbs and sometimes we're heavier on the protein. Sometimes we have peanut butter chocolate vegan ice cream and sometimes we have no dessert.

We generally get our B12 from fortified rice milk.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I believe a whole foods vegan diet could very well be the optimal diet. I know I eat a little too much vegan junk food than I should, but I'm working on that.

A typical daily menu around here (when we all sit down to eat together):

Breakfast: Tofu scramble, fruit

Lunch: Tofurkey sandwiches (tofurkey, lettuce, tomato, avocado, vegan mayo, and mustard on rye) with Baked Lays

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

Dessert: Sorbet or an all-fruit popsicle for the kids

Snacks: nuts, fruit

But this is just an example. Sometimes we're heavier on the carbs and sometimes we're heavier on the protein. Sometimes we have peanut butter chocolate vegan ice cream and sometimes we have no dessert.

We generally get our B12 from fortified rice milk.

Well, that's a lot more protein than I get.

[escapee]

Breakfast: Tofu scramble, fruit

Lunch: Tofurkey sandwiches (tofurkey, lettuce, tomato, avocado, vegan mayo, and mustard on rye) with Baked Lays

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

Dessert: Sorbet or an all-fruit popsicle for the kids

Snacks: nuts, fruit

But this is just an example. Sometimes we're heavier on the carbs and sometimes we're heavier on the protein. Sometimes we have peanut butter chocolate vegan ice cream and sometimes we have no dessert.

We generally get our B12 from fortified rice milk.

Wow . Great variety of food to ensure adequate intake of all nutrients ! Thanks for sharing .

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by John Hill

Not everyone's idea of healthy eating is vegan, as a matter of fact if you randomly chose 100 people walking along the street I'd be surprised if more than 1 was vegan.

The complaint wasn't about people on the street, for it's true that in the general population of the world, the idea of vegetarianism is pretty alien, and viewed with distrust and concern. The complaint was about people on this forum. Despite the fact that vegetarians are a tiny minority of the world's population, they actually outnumber the omnivores on this forum.

The problem as I see it, is this:
Vegetarians, and especially vegans, are a tiny tiny minority just about everywhere. And because the majority of the population in the US has never actually researched fitness, and simply parrots back the myths of their parent's generation, veggies face a lot of prejudice. Outside the 28-square-miles in Boulder, CO, a US veggie has been told hundreds or thousands of times that their lifestyle choice is wrong, stupid, or simply "misguided."

This makes them understandably a bit defensive. They've gotten used to assuming that omnivores think they're dumb, and in their everyday lives, it's a pretty good assumption. And so when someone on this forum (like me) says that they're an omnivore, it automatically moves me into the "enemy" category in people's minds.

Also, it's the first time a lot of vegans have been able to get together with like-minded people and discuss this lifestyle. In their communal bonding, some of it is bound to be a bit of complaining about all the problems that vegans share, and one of those universal problems is stuck-up, uneducated omnivores.

But it does make us omnivores, who are outnumbered for the first time in our lives, feel a bit rejected. We feel like we can't have a rational discussion about a diet that includes meat without being attacked for our lifestlye choices. And it's especially hard on people who are trying to improve their health for the very first time. You can't go from a diet of soda and cookies to a diet of vegetables and fruit juice. When people suggest that you can't be healthy without being vegan, it frightens off the people who really need to be starting with tips like, "drink 64 oz of water each day."

(Obviously, this doesn't include omnivores who feel the need to post something like, "Everyone knows that red meat is the best food available. Anyone who doesn't eat it deserves the slow, painful degenerative death that they will inevitably get." Those people, the vegetarians may feel free to flame)

It's not that either side is wrong, and in most cases I don't think anyone is trying to hurt others or criticise their choices or live their life for them. It's just that both sides have reason to feel defensive right now, and it leads to misunderstandings.

[elainevdw]

Hey D,

I know what you mean, and that phrase "none so righteous as the newly converted" applies well!

However, from my own experience, the first few weeks of a vegan diet to a vegan newbie are much healthier than a typical American diet. Why? Because in those first few weeks, you may not have knowledge of or access to vegan versions of your favorite junk food. For example, I went from eating dozens of those mini Twix bars, Hershey's kisses and mini Snickers from the office candy jar every single day to eating no chocolate at all. That changed when I discovered certain kinds of dark chocolates I liked, and candies made with carob. I also stopped eating fast food until we hired a new guy at work who was a 14-year vegan, and his diet seemed to consist solely of beer and vegan items from Taco Bell. I had assumed that the only vegan item at any fast food joint was French fries, but after I learned otherwise, it was back to the occasional fast food, too.

You're also forced to get a lot more creative with vegetables when you can't just toss grilled chicken on some rice and call it a night. There's no arguing that increasing your fruit and veggie intake from 1 or 2 servings of each to 5 or more a day is healthier than a diet consisting mostly of refined grains and protein. Of course, when you find out how much easier it is to buy a package of tofu dogs to throw on the grill, your veggie intake might plummet back to its previous despicable state.

Another thing to consider that's unique to these boards is that a vegan diet is arguably healthier spiritually speaking, as well as providing stricter guidelines in which to eat healthier physically.

Anyway, all that aside, there are also studies showing the cholesterol levels of vegetarians to be worlds better than the cholesterol levels of omnivores, and then the vegan score is even lower than the vegetarian score. So there's got to be something to it.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Hey D,

I know what you mean, and that phrase "none so righteous as the newly converted" applies well!

I also stopped eating fast food until we hired a new guy at work who was a 14-year vegan, and his diet seemed to consist solely of beer and vegan items from Taco Bell.

The Vegetarian Resource Journal ( vegan ) publishes a guide ever so often about fast food restaurants. The upshot is that the food at any given location is processed in parts spread across the country, in huge batches, from various suppliers. Even the corporation itself doesn't know what exactly is in their food. Taco Bell is one of the worst offenders.

Chinese buffets are also fairly risky .

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

However, from my own experience, the first few weeks of a vegan diet to a vegan newbie are much healthier than a typical American diet.

I don't think anyone's arguing that vegan isn't healthier than typical American diet. There's some argument that cardboard is healthier than the typical American diet.

The question is, are you (as a vegan) healthier than I am, as a person who eats only as many calories as she burns, gets enough fiber, doesn't eat too much sodium, less than 30% of her calories are from fat and less than 1/3 of that is saturated fat ... but I do use meat as a source of protein, fat, and a couple of minerals. Not because they're the only sources of these things, but because I choose to use meat as my source.

I think the scientific studies are still out on that. They've proven that your diet is healthier than the typical American's. They've proven that mine is, too. There aren't enough people like you and me to compare our diets with any kind of scientific validity.

That's where I feel like I'm getting attacked. Vegans don't like the assumption that they're crazy-ass vegetarian hippie-freaks, and I don't like the assumption that because I eat meat, it must mean that I eat 3 steaks a day.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by ahimel

The question is, are you (as a vegan) healthier than I am, as a person who eats only as many calories as she burns, gets enough fiber, doesn't eat too much sodium, less than 30% of her calories are from fat and less than 1/3 of that is saturated fat ... but I do use meat as a source of protein, fat, and a couple of minerals. Not because they're the only sources of these things, but because I choose to use meat as my source.

I think the scientific studies are still out on that.

See post #9 above. You might reevaluate the opinion in the last sentence after you have read that book. Your local library may already have a copy. To your health.

[Lauxa]

Cron,

I have not read The China Study, but Dr. Weston Price also did a large-scale epidemiological study in the 1930s (published in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration) which did not come to the conclusion that a plant-based diet was the most healful alternative. Also, a look at the 1-star reviews for The China Study on Amazon reveals this quote:

The facts, as anyone who actually peruses the data produced by the study Campbell claims to have drawn his conclusions from (which can be found in Chen J, et al. Diet, life-style, and mortality in China: A study of the characteristics of 65 Chinese counties. Oxford, UK; Ithaca, N.Y. Oxford University Press; Cornell University Press, 1990.), show that consumption of animal protein - especially meat - was associated with a 29% REDUCED risk of mortality, not an increased risk, as Campbell claims. For that matter, the study also shows a reduced risk of cancer in those who consume alcohol and tobacco use.

I am curious if you have looked at the actual data from the study or have any opinion on this statement.

Also, I am wondering if the book makes any statements about non-fermented soy products, because the Weston Price foundation is adamently anti-soy and most vegans seem to eat quite a bit of this. Personally, I would like to reduce my meat consumption mostly for economic reasons (free-range organic meat and cheese is expensive), but not if it means I will have to eat soy products instead.

[dor]

Originally Posted by DQueens

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. .

not me
Nina Planck: Food Writer & Expert on Farmers' Markets & Local Food
Why do I defend real food? Because it's under attack.

Don't you find it odd that the experts blame butter and beef for heart disease, even though heart disease as we know it has only been around since 1912, and we've been eating butter for 30,000 years and beef for 3 million?

Don't you find it funny that the foods in all traditional diets - starting with breast milk - are loaded with saturated fat and cholesterol, yet people who eat these traditional foods liberally don't get heart disease? Nor are they fat or diabetic.

The experts are mistaken. The so-called diseases of civilization - obesity, diabetes, and heart disease - are not caused by real food. The diseases of industrialization - as I call them - are caused by the foods of industrialization.

I eat grass fed meat, poutry, eggs, fish, ...i can't imagine eating vegtarian nor do i think the human body was designed to to so. As NP says, grass fed beef is a hell of a lot healtier than industrialized processed soyburgers....
I can understand having a problem with industrialized food - the way chickens are kept is enough to make a vegtarian out of anyone - just buy humanely slaughtered and raised meat and poultry,

[Cron]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Cron,

I have not read The China Study, but Dr. Weston Price also did a large-scale epidemiological study in the 1930s

The China Study was a large scale international study conducted throughout the 80s by the worlds top scientists.

Weston Price was a dentist.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Cron

The China Study was a large scale international study conducted throughout the 80s by the worlds top scientists.

Weston Price was a dentist.

Still, his point is excellent. What makes food bad is improper processing.

[Cron]

Jon, I mean no offense, but I prefer current knowledge of the highest scientific caliber from one of the best research scientists leading a team of scientists in a massive long term study to the 70 year old opinions of a dead dentist.

[dor]

Originally Posted by Cron

Jon, I mean no offense, but I prefer current knowledge of the highest scientific caliber from one of the best research scientists leading a team of scientists in a massive long term study to the 70 year old opinions of a dead dentist.

leading scientists and the FDA were telling us low fat diets were way to go
the FDA called stevia a dangerous substance (a natural sugar alternative - that would kill nutrasweet and asparatame)
Scientist contradict each other all the time. a lot of research is flawed- a lot of what was 'thrown out' by scientists post wwii has been quietly proven wrong...
some things have just been forgotten - like raw milk is much healthier than pasturized milk.

I can think of a 'biggie' if you want - skull shape and Franz Boas - its been proved he lied and faked his data - and whacked anthropology and social science and science for nearly a century .

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by Cron

Jon, I mean no offense, but I prefer current knowledge of the highest scientific caliber from one of the best research scientists leading a team of scientists in a massive long term study to the 70 year old opinions of a dead dentist.

Dr. Price studied 14 culturally isolated groups of people still eating their indiginous diets and observed the effects of diet on teeth, bone structure, and general health. To me this seems like a scientific way to conduct epidemiological research into the effects of diet on health. It would be hard to duplicate his research today because of globalization and the influx of Western foods into most populations.

In addition to dor's points, scientific research can be interpreted many different ways. We see what we want to see. The Price Foundation published a rebuttal to The China Study, part of which states:

[T]he actual data from the original publication paints a different picture. Figure 1 shows selected correlations between macronutrients and cancer mortality. Most of them are not statistically significant, which means that the probability the correlation is due to chance is greater than five percent. It is interesting to see, however, the general picture that emerges. Sugar, soluble carbohydrates, and fiber all have correlations with cancer mortality about seven times the magnitude of that of animal protein, and total fat and fat as a percentage of calories were both negatively correlated with cancer mortality. The only statistically significant association between intake of a macronutrient and cancer mortality was a large protective effect of total oil and fat intake as measured on the questionnaire.

Now I want to throw in a twist. Think about this from the standpoint of Subjective Reality. You believe veganism is the most healthful lifestyle, therefore you are going to see evidence everywhere for this belief. I believe that eating animal products is not inherently bad for me, therefore I will see evidence for my belief. The whole subject of food as it relates to human health is so complex with so many variables that it is hard for "science" to come up with the "right" answer. Is there really any point to discussing this in "scientific" terms? Or are we just intellectualizing our gut feelings?

I really don't see how anyone can make sense out of anything in this world, but we do the best we can.

[dor]

a lot of these studies lump all meat, dairy and poultry into one category - there is a HUGE difference between organic, grass fed beef and corn fed/hormone injected beef.
just like there is 'good fat' and bad fat.
And no, I don't believe you can get all the same nutrients eating vegan, (even in India non meat eaters use a ton of dairy) and a lot of times the fortified nutrients cannot be absorbed by the body as naturally or easily as they can with meats and dairy

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Cron

See post #9 above. You might reevaluate the opinion in the last sentence after you have read that book. Your local library may already have a copy. To your health.

I'm sorry if my statement seemed to indicate that I thought there were no studies on the subject. I am aware that there are many studies showing that vegetarian/vegan/whole foods/raw foods/organic foods are good diets for human beings, associated with drops in cancer rates, increase in lifespan and so on.

However, I am aware that there are studies showing that animal proteins cause a drop in cancer or an increase in lifespan. And studies showing that the source of protein has no effect. And studies showing that chicken and fish are healthier than soy, but soy is healthier than beef.

Until someone locates what the actual distinction is, the factor that turns out to be consistant through all of these studies, (or is able to produce consistant results in statistically meaningful sizes in repeat tests and explain how all the other studies messed up) I believe the scientific community is still out on that subject.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by DQueens

pet peeve: why does everyone's idea of healthy eating seem to be veganism?

When I was much younger (I’m currently 20) I didn’t really have a very healthy diet, nor did I eat a large variety of foods (at this time I was eating the “standard” diet with things such as milk, eggs, cheese, meat, vegetables, fruit, etc.). Once I got a bit older I started buying/cooking my own food, so that gave me the flexibility to experiment with my diet. I’ve always been a fairly health conscious individual, so once I took control of my diet that was naturally an area I wanted to see if I could improve/refine.

Once I learnt what the hell I was doing in the kitchen (as opposed to being clueless, heh ), I made an attempt to drastically cut down the time I spent with meal preparation as I saw it as a time wasting nuisance. Eventually I got over that (although not completely, hehe ), and I made the switch from unprocessed/refined foods to unprocessed, whole foods (not that I was eating much processed foods, but I was yet to eliminate them from my diet and was quite pleased with the effects I experienced from not eating processed rubbish). Then I started experimenting with adding other things into my diet that were (largely) previously absent, such as good fats, a better balance of nutrients, as well as learning to eat A) only as much as I needed (you really aren’t helping your digestion and your body in general if you overeat -- and many people do overeat without knowing it), and B) proper proportions of protein and carbs (which is important if you want your body running efficiently without either getting too much of one thing and causing problems or getting too little of one thing and not having the resources required to get through the day and to keep your immune system in good shape). Most of these changes, by the way, were a result of what I had learnt from reading the book Sly Moves by Sylvester Stallone (a great book by a great man -- someone who could probably bench press many younger, lesser men right out a window, despite his being 60 years old; I wouldn’t recommend the book to everyone, but if it’s up your alley and you’re able to appreciate the subtle wisdom contained within, it’s well worth reading/owning in my opinion).

Not too long after that, I found Steve’s website and began ploughing through his many, many other articles. As you can imagine, after just finding Steve’s website (as well as shortly before, which was the reason I found Steve’s site in the first place) I was somewhat interested in making some improvements with my life, particularly in area of mental performance/clarity. Steve had a lot to offer, and I was eager to learn and absorb his 1337'ness (never mind if you have no idea what that means). After reading about the experiences Steve had with veganism and the positive effects it had on him, in an attempt to satisfy my intense curiosity to see if there was potential to be tapped, I decided to transition to a vegan diet (my real goal was and still is to try a raw foodist diet, but I’m not quite ready for that yet in terms of appliances needed as well as knowledge/culinary skill). I never thought much of the vegetarian thing (I usually like to go all the way with things I do; half way doesn’t cut it), so instead of doing a 30-day trial or something similar, I decided that gradually removing things from my diet and eating things in lesser quantities over time was the most intelligent option for me, and it would give me a chance to notice the gradual effects (if any) associated with the reduction/removal of animal products. I had no idea when I would be able to officially label myself as a vegan (as I had no idea how long the transition process would take -- I wasn't in a hurry), but my experiment began there and the transition process lasted for about, oh, probably just under 6 months.

First to go was milk and cheese. I honestly never really liked milk before, and while I did used to like cheese, once I stopped eating it I actually became quite repulsed by both milk and cheese and would probably never eat either of them again. Eggs were something I only ate when they were used as ingredients in something (I found them detestable in any other form -- still do), so I certainly didn't miss them and they too were easy to drop. Next up was meat. Initially I was concerned about not including meat in my diet (for things such as protein, iron, etc; I was doing weight training at the time, so I had a definite need for such things and I had to be sure I got them elsewhere in adequate amounts), but I thought “what the hell, I can take it”, and over the course of about 4 months I gradually ate less and less meat, eventually removing it from my diet completely (and being thankful I did since meat was/is so bloody expensive these days, and not of terribly high quality). There may have been a few times after that when I would eat some meat to due to lack of other desirable options (such as when I was eating at a friends place, eating out at non-vegan friendly restaurants, etc.), but eventually I put a stop to that in an effort to no longer corrupt my experiment and so I could see the results of new vegan diet. I’ll also mention that I had absolutley no withdrawal symptoms or anything like that from removing animal products from my diet. I’d attribute most of that to stubbornness and discipline (if I want to do something I’ll do it no matter what -- I had no use for withdrawal symptoms, so if they had come, they would have got no attention from me), but mostly, it wasn’t a particularly difficult thing to do. Quite the contrary, I found it pretty damn easy -– you just stop eating milk, cheese, eggs (which I didn’t really eat much of anyway), and meat, and you’re vegan!

Since then I’ve been strictly vegan (which means I get to contend with people who try to get me to eat animal products and people telling me my diet is stupid/over restrictive ), and I’m still in the process of optimising my diet and becoming accustomed to it. As you can probably imagine, while "transitioning" to vegan isn't that hard (at least it wasn't for me), getting used to veganism isn’t the easiest thing to do (there was/is lots to learn in terms of cooking preparation, nutrition knowledge, how to deal with being vegan in a non-vegan world, etc.), but it is perfectly manageable without too much effort and I’m yet to run into any issues. As with anything in life, if you make a series attempt, it usually yields to your presence and lets you proceed to victory.

As for the effects of no longer eating any animal products, they haven’t been as profound as I would have hoped, although what I have experienced is definitely desirable, enough for me to not want to go back to my older, less efficient diets (after experiencing it, I consider veganism an improvement). After cutting out milk and cheese out of my diet I noted significant improvement to my digestion process. My body seemed much more efficient at processing food, as if it was no longer being weighed down my some sort of undesirable substance (or substances in this case). I noticed no real difference between eating meat/not eating meat (although I was eating mostly chicken in the last few months I was a carnivore, so maybe that had something to do with it, I don’t know), although I have noticed a difference from eating more plant foods. Generally my body is more functional and alert, and I feel much less lethargic, even if I haven’t eaten much for the day or if I haven't had enough. In general, my body is much more resilient and I have a general feeling of “wellbeing”, very similar to what I experienced when I first stopped microwaving my food as well as when I started eating more organic foods. Food seems to be more “energised”, nutritious, and higher quality, and you feel as if you’re getting more content from what you are eating.

So as you can see, my motivation to go vegan had little to do with thinking it was the "optimal" choice (is there really ever an optimal choice?) and everything do to with satisfying my curiosity, trying to tap further efficiency and superior results out of life, and making an intelligent, conscious choice (one that I'm sure will benefit the environment in some way, unlike my previous dietary choices). Overall, I'm pleased with the results so far, and I'm keen to further optimise my vegan diet further, as there is much more I can learn and improve upon. Once I've done that, it's onward to the next challenge which will be the inclusion of (and maybe the total transition to) more raw foodist type foods. From there, I don't know -- maybe I'll figure out how to absorb energy from the sun Superman-style and rid myself of this inefficient thing we call "eating". Either way, the future looks good diet-wise!

Denny Crane. Who's your daddy? Denny Cane. *Flies off into the sunset, Superman-style*

[Amadeus]

Well the only thing I can say is, I started doing the Vegan diet a half a year ago and feel like I have been set free of a lot of bondage in my life ever since. Before I would be drained completely of energy half the day and wired the other half. I was 100 pounds overweight and attempted every diet in the book. I use to think that carbs and sugar was what was controlling my life. I use to think sugar made you fat and that fat was not bad for you. I believed Atkins. Well since starting the vegan diet pounds have fallen off and my blood pressure is normal for the first time in years. I started to realize all the snacks I use to eat all day long contained dairy. Dairy is prohibited in the Vegan diet. I also realized the importance of fiber. A vegan lifestyle has a lot of fiber do to the increase consumption of fruits and veggies. It stabilizes your blood sugar levels and absorbs fat. Keep in mind there is no fiber at all in dairy and meat. I think clearly now. My mind use to be at a hundred different places. I wake up mornings now feeling normal and not exhausted. Trust me, try it.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by dor

Don't you find it odd that the experts blame butter and beef for heart disease, even though heart disease as we know it has only been around since 1912, and we've been eating butter for 30,000 years and beef for 3 million?

The beef and butter eaten in 1850 is different then the beef and butter we eat now. Meat also used to be fairly precious. It has never been as cheap to eat as it is today due to commercialized farming.

Also, heart disease has been around long before 1912, it's just that we don't have historical data to show who died of what before then. A few hundred years ago people believed evil spirits and curses were the cause of disease etc. The could have very well died of heart disease, but it was never recorded as that. Also, people used to get way more exercise than today. Most of us today live sedetary life styles.

As far as meat supply, only now does our cattle contain 30-40% body fat. Wild cattle only contain 2-3% body fat. Commercial farmers plump them up with fat to make more profits and to improve taste.

So it's not so much butter and meat, but rather how we make the butter and meat, and how MUCH butter and meat we eat as well as how little exercise we get.

Don't you find it funny that the foods in all traditional diets - starting with breast milk - are loaded with saturated fat and cholesterol, yet people who eat these traditional foods liberally don't get heart disease? Nor are they fat or diabetic.

50% of the calories in breast milk comes from fat, that is correct. However, it is there to support the greatest amount of growth we do in our entire lifetime. Babies double their body weight in a matter of months. As we get older the amount of fat should be reduced to 20% not remain at 50%.

Also, breast milk is not full of refined carbohydrates, and sugars like what most of us eat.

The experts are mistaken. The so-called diseases of civilization - obesity, diabetes, and heart disease - are not caused by real food. The diseases of industrialization - as I call them - are caused by the foods of industrialization.
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I eat grass fed meat, poutry, eggs, fish, ...i can't imagine eating vegtarian nor do i think the human body was designed to to so. As NP says, grass fed beef is a hell of a lot healtier than industrialized processed soyburgers....
I can understand having a problem with industrialized food - the way chickens are kept is enough to make a vegtarian out of anyone - just buy humanely slaughtered and raised meat and poultry,

Yup, I agree. THe problems stem from industrialization and commercialized farming.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Well the only thing I can say is, I started doing the Vegan diet a half a year ago and feel like I have been set free of a lot of bondage in my life ever since. Before I would be drained completely of energy half the day and wired the other half. I was 100 pounds overweight and attempted every diet in the book. I use to think that carbs and sugar was what was controlling my life. I use to think sugar made you fat and that fat was not bad for you. I believed Atkins. Well since starting the vegan diet pounds have fallen off and my blood pressure is normal for the first time in years. I started to realize all the snacks I use to eat all day long contained dairy. Dairy is prohibited in the Vegan diet. I also realized the importance of fiber. A vegan lifestyle has a lot of fiber do to the increase consumption of fruits and veggies. It stabilizes your blood sugar levels and absorbs fat. Keep in mind there is no fiber at all in dairy and meat. I think clearly now. My mind use to be at a hundred different places. I wake up mornings now feeling normal and not exhausted. Trust me, try it.

So do you still eat refined sugars? Like, if you eat 3 chocolate bars per day, as long as they contain no dairy or meat, do you feel good?

I think the biggest mistake people make in low-carb diets is not understanding the difference between GOOD CARBS and BAD CARBS. There is a BIG difference in consuming 500calories of GOOD CARBS (vegetables for example), vs. 500 calories of BAD CARBS (white sugar for example).

People need to differentiate between complex carbs and simple carbs.