pet peeve: why does everyone's idea of healthy eating seem to be veganism?

[DQueens]

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. What is up with this? I support the idea of veganism and vegetarianism but i feel that these are not the ultimate solutions to a diet that is poor and unstructered. If one knows that they are eating poorly and feels that the only change they need to make to their diet in order to become a healthy and balanced eater is to give up meat, then they are sorely mistaken! Veganism and vegetarianism can both be very healthy nutrition lifestyles, however they take a lot of planning and effort in order to work. I think that on this forum people are closed to the idea that making over your diet simply means adhering more closely to the food guide, eating more balanced meals, lowering fat and cholesterol and lowering white sugar and carb intake. I'm sure that many of you have fabulous reasons for converting to veggies, I just want to point out to the few of you who feel that cutting out meats gives you free rein over cakes and ice cream, that the world of meat-shunning does not always bring with it excellent nutrition.

[Erin Pavlina]

I've been vegan about 9 years. I don't find it takes a lot of planning or effort.

People go vegan for a variety of reasons, some of the health, some for ethics, some spiritual, and some religious, and some for the environment.

it's true that people can be vegan junkaholics but there are probably more people who are vegan and eat very healthy. Just as someone can abuse a diet full of meat, people can abuse a vegan diet by eating cakes, candy, and cookies and justifying it by saying, "well at least it's vegan."

In fact, most people have this preconceived idea that vegans are emaciated, thin, and sickly. That always confused me.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

In fact, most people have this preconceived idea that vegans are emaciated, thin, and sickly. That always confused me.

Some us don't know enough vegans to assess them accurately.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by DQueens

I just want to point out to the few of you who feel that cutting out meats gives you free rein over cakes and ice cream, that the world of meat-shunning does not always bring with it excellent nutrition.

You've seen people like this on these forums? I often joke to my junkfood eating friends that technically his chip and soda diet is vegan, but I think you will find the amount of healthy eating vegans far outweighs the healthy eating meat eaters, comparatively.

Counter-peeve: Just because you eat meat, doesnt automatically make you healthier, or recieving of more vitamins and minerals than a vegan or vegetarian. In fact, most of my meat eating friends (and america in general) engorge theirselves on meat, eating way more than you should per serving, while neglecting the vegetables that you would need in addition.

[John Hill]

Not everyone's idea of healthy eating is vegan, as a matter of fact if you randomly chose 100 people walking along the street I'd be surprised if more than 1 was vegan.

I live a healthy and active lifestyle and choose to eat meat as it makes me feel strong and supplies me with the type of protein that works for me. This doesn't make me any less spiritual than a vegan. Vegans choose their own style of eating for the reasons that sit well with them and they have that choice.

I live in a country where 95% of the population is Buddhist and Buddhist people are very spiritual but in the years I have lived here I have never met 1 single buddhist vegan.

Eat whatever makes you feel comfortable, you have that right. Eating only vegan limits the number of healthy protein sources available to you.

If you are an "O" blood type in particular you may need to supplement your diet with additional vitamin and mineral supplements to stay healthy. "O" blood types which account for about 46% of the population date back over 40,000 years and are the oldest of todays blood types, they were the original hunters and have not only evolved but thrived on eating meat. "A" blood types accounting for approximately 42% of the population have weaker digestive abilities than "O's" and therefore are much more suited to diets higher in vegetables and lower in protein making them prime candidates for a vegan lifestyle.

John

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I've been vegan about 9 years. I don't find it takes a lot of planning or effort.

Erin, do you, or same question to any vegan's or vegetarians, have to take any supplement in you diet to supplement anything missing in their diets?

Or do you manage to get it all from your food.

And out of interest what sort of menu of things would you eat in a day to constitute an average?

Curious G

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Erin, do you, or same question to any vegan's or vegetarians, have to take any supplement in you diet to supplement anything missing in their diets?

The only supplement you need as a vegan is vitamin B12. Everything else can be gotten from natural food. This looks like a good site that covers vegan nutrition: Veganism in a Nutshell.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Baltar

The only supplement you need as a vegan is vitamin B12. Everything else can be gotten from natural food. This looks like a good site that covers vegan nutrition: Veganism in a Nutshell.

Thank you Baltar, quite an informative site.

G

[Cron]

Originally Posted by DQueens

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. What is up with this?

I think it is because a whole foods vegan diet is what works .
( for health, fitness, the environment, animal cruelty )

Do not take anyone's word for it. There is a great book called THE CHINA STUDY was makes a the best scientific case for an animal free diet. It is based on an incredibly huge and incredibly scientific study made by one of the U.S's top scientists over many years

Amazon.com: china study

[Erin Pavlina]

I believe a whole foods vegan diet could very well be the optimal diet. I know I eat a little too much vegan junk food than I should, but I'm working on that.

A typical daily menu around here (when we all sit down to eat together):

Breakfast: Tofu scramble, fruit

Lunch: Tofurkey sandwiches (tofurkey, lettuce, tomato, avocado, vegan mayo, and mustard on rye) with Baked Lays

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

Dessert: Sorbet or an all-fruit popsicle for the kids

Snacks: nuts, fruit

But this is just an example. Sometimes we're heavier on the carbs and sometimes we're heavier on the protein. Sometimes we have peanut butter chocolate vegan ice cream and sometimes we have no dessert.

We generally get our B12 from fortified rice milk.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I believe a whole foods vegan diet could very well be the optimal diet. I know I eat a little too much vegan junk food than I should, but I'm working on that.

A typical daily menu around here (when we all sit down to eat together):

Breakfast: Tofu scramble, fruit

Lunch: Tofurkey sandwiches (tofurkey, lettuce, tomato, avocado, vegan mayo, and mustard on rye) with Baked Lays

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

Dessert: Sorbet or an all-fruit popsicle for the kids

Snacks: nuts, fruit

But this is just an example. Sometimes we're heavier on the carbs and sometimes we're heavier on the protein. Sometimes we have peanut butter chocolate vegan ice cream and sometimes we have no dessert.

We generally get our B12 from fortified rice milk.

Well, that's a lot more protein than I get.

[escapee]

Breakfast: Tofu scramble, fruit

Lunch: Tofurkey sandwiches (tofurkey, lettuce, tomato, avocado, vegan mayo, and mustard on rye) with Baked Lays

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

Dessert: Sorbet or an all-fruit popsicle for the kids

Snacks: nuts, fruit

But this is just an example. Sometimes we're heavier on the carbs and sometimes we're heavier on the protein. Sometimes we have peanut butter chocolate vegan ice cream and sometimes we have no dessert.

We generally get our B12 from fortified rice milk.

Wow . Great variety of food to ensure adequate intake of all nutrients ! Thanks for sharing .

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by John Hill

Not everyone's idea of healthy eating is vegan, as a matter of fact if you randomly chose 100 people walking along the street I'd be surprised if more than 1 was vegan.

The complaint wasn't about people on the street, for it's true that in the general population of the world, the idea of vegetarianism is pretty alien, and viewed with distrust and concern. The complaint was about people on this forum. Despite the fact that vegetarians are a tiny minority of the world's population, they actually outnumber the omnivores on this forum.

The problem as I see it, is this:
Vegetarians, and especially vegans, are a tiny tiny minority just about everywhere. And because the majority of the population in the US has never actually researched fitness, and simply parrots back the myths of their parent's generation, veggies face a lot of prejudice. Outside the 28-square-miles in Boulder, CO, a US veggie has been told hundreds or thousands of times that their lifestyle choice is wrong, stupid, or simply "misguided."

This makes them understandably a bit defensive. They've gotten used to assuming that omnivores think they're dumb, and in their everyday lives, it's a pretty good assumption. And so when someone on this forum (like me) says that they're an omnivore, it automatically moves me into the "enemy" category in people's minds.

Also, it's the first time a lot of vegans have been able to get together with like-minded people and discuss this lifestyle. In their communal bonding, some of it is bound to be a bit of complaining about all the problems that vegans share, and one of those universal problems is stuck-up, uneducated omnivores.

But it does make us omnivores, who are outnumbered for the first time in our lives, feel a bit rejected. We feel like we can't have a rational discussion about a diet that includes meat without being attacked for our lifestlye choices. And it's especially hard on people who are trying to improve their health for the very first time. You can't go from a diet of soda and cookies to a diet of vegetables and fruit juice. When people suggest that you can't be healthy without being vegan, it frightens off the people who really need to be starting with tips like, "drink 64 oz of water each day."

(Obviously, this doesn't include omnivores who feel the need to post something like, "Everyone knows that red meat is the best food available. Anyone who doesn't eat it deserves the slow, painful degenerative death that they will inevitably get." Those people, the vegetarians may feel free to flame)

It's not that either side is wrong, and in most cases I don't think anyone is trying to hurt others or criticise their choices or live their life for them. It's just that both sides have reason to feel defensive right now, and it leads to misunderstandings.

[elainevdw]

Hey D,

I know what you mean, and that phrase "none so righteous as the newly converted" applies well!

However, from my own experience, the first few weeks of a vegan diet to a vegan newbie are much healthier than a typical American diet. Why? Because in those first few weeks, you may not have knowledge of or access to vegan versions of your favorite junk food. For example, I went from eating dozens of those mini Twix bars, Hershey's kisses and mini Snickers from the office candy jar every single day to eating no chocolate at all. That changed when I discovered certain kinds of dark chocolates I liked, and candies made with carob. I also stopped eating fast food until we hired a new guy at work who was a 14-year vegan, and his diet seemed to consist solely of beer and vegan items from Taco Bell. I had assumed that the only vegan item at any fast food joint was French fries, but after I learned otherwise, it was back to the occasional fast food, too.

You're also forced to get a lot more creative with vegetables when you can't just toss grilled chicken on some rice and call it a night. There's no arguing that increasing your fruit and veggie intake from 1 or 2 servings of each to 5 or more a day is healthier than a diet consisting mostly of refined grains and protein. Of course, when you find out how much easier it is to buy a package of tofu dogs to throw on the grill, your veggie intake might plummet back to its previous despicable state.

Another thing to consider that's unique to these boards is that a vegan diet is arguably healthier spiritually speaking, as well as providing stricter guidelines in which to eat healthier physically.

Anyway, all that aside, there are also studies showing the cholesterol levels of vegetarians to be worlds better than the cholesterol levels of omnivores, and then the vegan score is even lower than the vegetarian score. So there's got to be something to it.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Hey D,

I know what you mean, and that phrase "none so righteous as the newly converted" applies well!

I also stopped eating fast food until we hired a new guy at work who was a 14-year vegan, and his diet seemed to consist solely of beer and vegan items from Taco Bell.

The Vegetarian Resource Journal ( vegan ) publishes a guide ever so often about fast food restaurants. The upshot is that the food at any given location is processed in parts spread across the country, in huge batches, from various suppliers. Even the corporation itself doesn't know what exactly is in their food. Taco Bell is one of the worst offenders.

Chinese buffets are also fairly risky .

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

However, from my own experience, the first few weeks of a vegan diet to a vegan newbie are much healthier than a typical American diet.

I don't think anyone's arguing that vegan isn't healthier than typical American diet. There's some argument that cardboard is healthier than the typical American diet.

The question is, are you (as a vegan) healthier than I am, as a person who eats only as many calories as she burns, gets enough fiber, doesn't eat too much sodium, less than 30% of her calories are from fat and less than 1/3 of that is saturated fat ... but I do use meat as a source of protein, fat, and a couple of minerals. Not because they're the only sources of these things, but because I choose to use meat as my source.

I think the scientific studies are still out on that. They've proven that your diet is healthier than the typical American's. They've proven that mine is, too. There aren't enough people like you and me to compare our diets with any kind of scientific validity.

That's where I feel like I'm getting attacked. Vegans don't like the assumption that they're crazy-ass vegetarian hippie-freaks, and I don't like the assumption that because I eat meat, it must mean that I eat 3 steaks a day.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by ahimel

The question is, are you (as a vegan) healthier than I am, as a person who eats only as many calories as she burns, gets enough fiber, doesn't eat too much sodium, less than 30% of her calories are from fat and less than 1/3 of that is saturated fat ... but I do use meat as a source of protein, fat, and a couple of minerals. Not because they're the only sources of these things, but because I choose to use meat as my source.

I think the scientific studies are still out on that.

See post #9 above. You might reevaluate the opinion in the last sentence after you have read that book. Your local library may already have a copy. To your health.

[Lauxa]

Cron,

I have not read The China Study, but Dr. Weston Price also did a large-scale epidemiological study in the 1930s (published in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration) which did not come to the conclusion that a plant-based diet was the most healful alternative. Also, a look at the 1-star reviews for The China Study on Amazon reveals this quote:

The facts, as anyone who actually peruses the data produced by the study Campbell claims to have drawn his conclusions from (which can be found in Chen J, et al. Diet, life-style, and mortality in China: A study of the characteristics of 65 Chinese counties. Oxford, UK; Ithaca, N.Y. Oxford University Press; Cornell University Press, 1990.), show that consumption of animal protein - especially meat - was associated with a 29% REDUCED risk of mortality, not an increased risk, as Campbell claims. For that matter, the study also shows a reduced risk of cancer in those who consume alcohol and tobacco use.

I am curious if you have looked at the actual data from the study or have any opinion on this statement.

Also, I am wondering if the book makes any statements about non-fermented soy products, because the Weston Price foundation is adamently anti-soy and most vegans seem to eat quite a bit of this. Personally, I would like to reduce my meat consumption mostly for economic reasons (free-range organic meat and cheese is expensive), but not if it means I will have to eat soy products instead.

[dor]

Originally Posted by DQueens

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. .

not me
Nina Planck: Food Writer & Expert on Farmers' Markets & Local Food
Why do I defend real food? Because it's under attack.

Don't you find it odd that the experts blame butter and beef for heart disease, even though heart disease as we know it has only been around since 1912, and we've been eating butter for 30,000 years and beef for 3 million?

Don't you find it funny that the foods in all traditional diets - starting with breast milk - are loaded with saturated fat and cholesterol, yet people who eat these traditional foods liberally don't get heart disease? Nor are they fat or diabetic.

The experts are mistaken. The so-called diseases of civilization - obesity, diabetes, and heart disease - are not caused by real food. The diseases of industrialization - as I call them - are caused by the foods of industrialization.

I eat grass fed meat, poutry, eggs, fish, ...i can't imagine eating vegtarian nor do i think the human body was designed to to so. As NP says, grass fed beef is a hell of a lot healtier than industrialized processed soyburgers....
I can understand having a problem with industrialized food - the way chickens are kept is enough to make a vegtarian out of anyone - just buy humanely slaughtered and raised meat and poultry,