pet peeve: why does everyone's idea of healthy eating seem to be veganism?

[Trina]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

Steve had a lot to offer, and I was eager to learn and absorb his 1337'ness (never mind if you have no idea what that means).

I am completely lost when it comes to the whole herbivore vs. omnivore debate, but I know what L33T means. LMAO. How dorky is that?

[Amadeus]

Good question Impaul. No I find that going on a vegan diet decreases my desire for sugary foods big time. I'm not reaching for these high sugary foods. I do however eat some desserts once in a while.

[spirited]

About the breast milk: people who make the argument that breast milk is full of saturated fat and therefore saturated fat must be good for you, somehow never make the argument that breast milk is full of sugar and therefore sugar must be good for you. In fact, often those same people argue that sugar (whether processed or natural) is evil.

People in traditional societies do not eat diets that are loaded with saturated fat. If they do (the Masai come to mind) they also have an extremely active lifestyle so that they remain very thin and they still die young. I think I have said it before in this forum, but if you want to know what healthy eating is, you can look at what you think some ideal prehistoric person would have eaten millennia ago, or you can look at what centenarians eat right now. They certainly do not eat lots of meat and dairy. They do eat their veggies.

[dor]

Originally Posted by spirited

About the breast milk: people who make the argument that breast milk is full of saturated fat and therefore saturated fat must be good for you, somehow never make the argument that breast milk is full of sugar and therefore sugar must be good for you. In fact, often those same people argue that sugar (whether processed or natural) is evil.

People in traditional societies do not eat diets that are loaded with saturated fat. If they do (the Masai come to mind) they also have an extremely active lifestyle so that they remain very thin and they still die young. I think I have said it before in this forum, but if you want to know what healthy eating is, you can look at what you think some ideal prehistoric person would have eaten millennia ago, or you can look at what centenarians eat right now. They certainly do not eat lots of meat and dairy. They do eat their veggies.

. people don't say sugar is bad or fat but TYPES of sugar and the quanties thereof
as for centenarians ...who like people on Sardinia who eat meat, fish and dairy and plenty of it or Owkinowa who eat fish and pork fat?
masai and eskomos have crude living conditions that's why they die young not because of diet.

[vivling]

I was a vegetarian for about 10 years and most of those years I was a vegan.

Now I've been eating "everything" for a few years and while I wasn't satisfied with being vegan, I'm not quite happy eating this way either. I'm still searching for and ideal diet for myself (remember: everyone is different; what's perfect for you, might not be so perfect for someone else. There is no one solution for all people) and I'm seriously considering becoming a pesco-vegetarian. I would restrict my diet, but not too much. The golden middle way

Maybe I should try it for 30 days, hmm...

[The David]

What about pesco-vegan? Would that be better?

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by vivling

I'm seriously considering becoming a pesco-vegetarian. I would restrict my diet, but not too much. The golden middle way

That's vegan plus fish, right?

That's what I've just kind of fallen into the past few months. I don't eat chicken or beef anymore (except at Christmas at my in-laws' -- yeah, I'm a wimp ), and I keep dairy, eggs, etc. to a complete minimum. But I eat fish about one a week.

I skimmed through an interesting (yet dated) book at my yoga studio the other day. It recommended cutting out all animal products except for either fish, or dairy. Each has it's pros and cons. The cons with fish has more to do with toxicity than anything else.

A coworker of mine does the fish thing, too.

Though to be honest, the main reason I fell into the fish diet is because my boyfriend is only home every other weekend, and two of our bonding things we do are get the fresh catch at our favorite restaurant, and go out for sushi.

One thing that I always think when I eat fish and veggies is the argument that the diet of the elderly in -- what is it, Okinawa or Hokkaido? -- is mostly veggies and fish, and they have the largest population of people over 100 years old in the world. I haven't looked up accurate information on that story in a while, though.

Also, from a compassionate point of view, I recently discovered that I find fishing to be a little disturbing. I did catch-and-release bass fishing with my dad for the first time in years last summer, and though they seem mostly panicked when you hook their mouth, if they swallow the hook and it gets stuck in their throats -- they thrash and thrash, and you can tell that it really hurts them.

[vivling]

Originally Posted by The David

What about pesco-vegan? Would that be better?

Too restrictive to my taste at this point in my life.

Pesco-vegan diet would probably be perfect for someone who wants to be vegan but wants to get B12 and Omega-3 from natural sources.

I've experiemented with being very restrictive with my diet, but now I believe that having a sense of freedom is necessary to be truly happy.

I don't want to isolate myself from other people anymore because of my diet. I want to be able to socialise and just be "normal" as much as possible. There needs to be a balance. It's not just about physical health, ethics etc but emotional well-being as well. That's the balance I'm looking for.

[vivling]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

That's vegan plus fish, right?

No, I meant pesco-ovo-lacto-vegetarian

But I wouldn't want to go about calling myself that; people would think I'm a nutso.

--

I regurlary went fishing with my dad sinse I was a little girl until my teens when I became a veganazi. I acted so horribly, feeling sorry for the fish and throwing them back in the lake and whining all the time that my dad thought it was better to leave me out.

Still to this day he doesn't invite me to go fishing with him, even though he knows I eat fish now

[adamsoho]

I found that dairy (whether organic or hormonally altered), for me, was very much a contributing factor to both my feeling of bloat and lack of energy throughout the day. I still eat the occasional ice cream, cottage cheese and fruit, etc., but I completely cut out my cereal eating (this used to be a rather large part of my daily intake).

Lately, I have been eating a lot of fruit, veggies, whole wheat toast with Trader Joe's jams (no butter), and nuts (pine nuts & almonds).

Anyways. I still like meat, and strict veganism is not, at the moment, feasible, economic or even anticipated. I believe in healthier food choices, across the board, with a little indulgement here and there.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

When I was much younger (I’m currently 20) I didn’t really have a very healthy diet, nor did I eat a large variety of foods (at this time I was eating the “standard” diet with things such as milk, eggs, cheese, meat, vegetables, fruit, etc.). Once I got a bit older I started buying/cooking my own food, so that gave me the flexibility to experiment with my diet. I’ve always been a fairly health conscious individual, so once I took control of my diet that was naturally an area I wanted to see if I could improve/refine.

Once I learnt what the hell I was doing in the kitchen, I made an attempt to drastically cut down the time I spent with meal preparation as I saw it as a time wasting nuisance. Eventually I got over that (although not completely, hehe ), and I made the switch from unprocessed/refined foods to unprocessed, whole foods (not that I was eating much processed foods, but I was yet to eliminate them from my diet and was quite pleased with the effects I experienced from not eating processed rubbish). Then I started experimenting with adding other things into my diet that were (largely) previously absent, such as good fats, a better balance of nutrients, as well as learning to eat A) only as much as I needed (you really aren’t helping your digestion and your body in general if you overeat – and many people do overeat without knowing it), and B) proper proportions of protein and carbs (which is important if you want your body running efficiently without either getting too much of one thing and causing problems or getting too little of one thing and not having the resources required to get through the day and to keep your immune system in good shape). Most of these changes, by the way, were a result of what I had learnt from reading the book Sly Moves by Sylvester Stallone (a great book by a great man -- someone who could probably bench press many younger, lesser men right out a window, despite his being 60 years old; I wouldn’t recommend the book to everyone, but if it’s up your alley and you’re able to appreciate the subtle wisdom contained within, it’s well worth reading/owning in my opinion).

Not too long after that, I found Steve’s website and began ploughing through his many, many other articles. As you can imagine, after just finding Steve’s website (as well as shortly before, which was the reason I found Steve’s site in the first place) I was somewhat interested in making some improvements with my life, particularly in area of mental performance/clarity. Steve had a lot to offer, and I was eager to learn and absorb his 1337'ness (never mind if you have no idea what that means). After reading about the experiences Steve had with veganism and the positive effects it had on him, in an attempt to satisfy my intense curiosity to see if there was potential to be tapped, I decided to transition to a vegan diet (my real goal was and still is to try a raw foodist diet, but I’m not quite ready for that yet in terms of appliances needed as well as knowledge/culinary skill). I never thought much of the vegetarian thing (I usually like to go all the way with things I do; half way doesn’t cut it), so instead of doing a 30-day trial or something similar, I decided that gradually removing things from my diet and eating things in lesser quantities over time was the most intelligent option for me, and it would give me a chance to notice the gradual effects (if any) associated with the reduction/removal of animal products. I had no idea when I would be able to officially label myself as a vegan (as I had no idea how long the transition process would take -- I wasn't in a hurry), but my experiment began there and the transition process lasted for about, oh, probably just under 6 months.

First to go was milk and cheese. I honestly never really liked milk before, and while I did used to like cheese, once I stopped eating it I actually became quite repulsed by both milk and cheese and would probably never eat either of them again. Next up was meat. Initially I was concerned about not including meat in my diet (for things such as protein, iron, etc; I was doing weight training at the time, so I had a definite need for such things and I had to be sure I got them elsewhere in adequate amounts), but I thought “what the hell, I can take it”, and over the course of about 4 months I gradually ate less and less meat, eventually removing it from my diet completely (and being thankful I did since meat was/is so bloody expensive these days, and not of terribly high quality). There may have been a few times after that when I would eat some meat to due to lack of other desirable options (such as when I was eating at a friends place, eating out at non-vegan friendly restaurants, etc.), but eventually I put a stop to that in an effort to no longer corrupt my experiment and so I could see the results of new vegan diet. I’ll also mention that I had absolutley no withdrawal symptoms or anything like that from removing animal products from my diet. I’d attribute most of that to my discipline (if I want to do something I’ll do it no matter what -- withdrawal symptoms can get the hell out of my way as I have no need for such things), but mostly, it wasn’t a particularly difficult thing to do. Quite the contrary, I found it pretty damn easy -– you just stop eating milk, cheese, eggs (which I didn’t really eat much of anyway), and meat, and you’re vegan!

Since then I’ve been strictly vegan (which means I get to contend with people who try to get me to eat animal products and people telling me my diet is stupid/over restrictive ), and I’m still in the process of optimising my diet and becoming accustomed to it. As you can probably imagine, while "transitioning" to vegan isn't that hard (at least it wasn't for me), getting used to veganism isn’t the easiest thing to do (there was/is lots to learn in terms of cooking preparation, nutrition knowledge, how to deal with being vegan in a non-vegan world, etc.), but it is perfectly manageable without too much effort and I’m yet to run into any issues. As with anything in life, if you make a series attempt, it usually yields to your presence and lets you proceed to victory.

As for the effects of no longer eating any animal products, they haven’t been as profound as I would have hoped, although what I have experienced is definitely desirable, enough for me to not want to go back to my older, less efficient diets (after experiencing it, I consider veganism an improvement). After cutting out milk and cheese out of my diet I noted significant improvement to my digestion process. My body seemed much more efficient at processing food, as if it was no longer being weighed down my some sort of undesirable substance (or substances in this case). I noticed no real difference between eating meat/not eating meat (although I was eating mostly chicken in the last few months I was a carnivore, so maybe that had something to do with it, I don’t know), although I have noticed a difference from eating more plant foods. Generally my body is more functional and alert, and I feel much less lethargic, even if I haven’t eaten much for the day or if I haven't had enough. In general, my body is much more resilient and I have a general feeling of “wellbeing”, very similar to what I experienced when I first stopped microwaving my food as well as when I started eating more organic foods. Food seems to be more “energised”, nutritious, and higher quality, and you feel as if you’re getting more content from what you are eating.

So as you can see, my motivation to go vegan had little to do with thinking it was the "optimal" choice (is there really ever an optimal choice?) and everything do to with satisfying my curiosity, trying to tap further efficiency and superior results out of life, and making an intelligent, conscious choice (one that I'm sure will benefit the environment in some way, unlike my previous dietary choices). Overall, I'm pleased with the results so far, and I'm keen to further optimise my vegan diet further, as there is much more I can learn and improve upon. Once I've done that, it's onward to the next challenge which will be the inclusion of (and maybe the total transition to) more raw foodist type foods. From there, I don't know -- maybe I'll figure out how to absorb energy from the sun Superman-style and rid myself of this inefficient thing we call "eating". Either way, the future looks good diet-wise!

Denny Crane. Who's your daddy? Denny Cane.

Wow! Awesome story. Thanks for sharing that. I was actually very dissapointed with veganism. I did a 30 day trial of no meat or cheese (my favorite food in the world) and did not feel more energized. The only thing I noticed was exactly what you noticed, my body digested things MUCH faster. I was going number 2 twice a day, whereas before it was like once every 2 days.

Steve had me convinced that I was in for a huge energy boost, but I did not feel it at all. I'm back on a regular diet now. I'm only 17 and I've never been grocery shopping in my life. I was definately not eating a varied diet of fruit and veggies so I'm guessing that had something to do with it. People should understand that simply being vegan does not mean you are more healthy. Being vegan just means you are not eating wrong, it doesn't mean that you are eating right.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Erock

I was actually very dissapointed with veganism. I did a 30 day trial of no meat or cheese (my favorite food in the world) and did not feel more energized. The only thing I noticed was exactly what you noticed, my body digested things MUCH faster. I was going number 2 twice a day, whereas before it was like once every 2 days.

This is the biggest easily noticeable benefit that I've gotten from becoming vegan. I get constipated so rarely now that I don't remember the last time it happened. When I was on an omnivore diet I got constipated probably multiple times per week on average. I also heard that you're supposed to do a #2 once for each time you eat a meal in a day. That's roughly how it turns out for me usually.

Originally Posted by Erock

Steve had me convinced that I was in for a huge energy boost, but I did not feel it at all. I'm back on a regular diet now. I'm only 17 and I've never been grocery shopping in my life. I was definately not eating a varied diet of fruit and veggies so I'm guessing that had something to do with it. People should understand that simply being vegan does not mean you are more healthy. Being vegan just means you are not eating wrong, it doesn't mean that you are eating right.

All I can say is that the biggest energy boost I got was when I started exercising (running). The diet alone wasn't enough to make a huge difference in energy, although it ultimately resulted in me eating healthier. Since I became vegan, I've cut almost all junk food from my diet (particularly sugar-overdose things like candy, soda, etc). I also started eating a lot more fruits, since I had to replace all the junk food with something.

I believe that Steve was already exercising when he became vegetarian (and later vegan). In that case I assume he noticed that he could run faster or longer or whatever after switching. I don't think he would say that he got an energy boost if he wasn't exercising. I certainly didn't until I started to. But since I wasn't exercising as an omnivore I can't compare the two..

[marktb]

I dont know about veganism. I am a former personal trainer and have over 18 years of nutritional background. I understand the concept behind veganism but personally I haven't ever practiced it because I do believe we are designed to eat meat and eggs, but not necessarily dairy products. However, I have noticed with myself LATELY I FEEL better and perform better when I dont eat red meat but the correlation may be a coincidence. For example, I haven't eaten red meat for about 1 week and my workout yesterday was amazing. I was the strongest I have been in quite some time but this could be because I had sufficient rest. Who really knows. I do recommend if you eat red meat to choose organic as much as possible, esp. chix.

Furthermore, I am going to do an unscientific experiment on my sex drive. I am 38years old and have noticed a decline in blood flow AND libido, but both of these could be mental.

[gberardi]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Dinner: Cashew paella (rice, tons of veggies, cashews), romaine salad

I'd sure like the recipe for that dish. B-)

[Jesse E]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

In fact, most people have this preconceived idea that vegans are emaciated, thin, and sickly. That always confused me.

Hey Erin, I'd love to see what a real healthy vegan body looks like. Mind posting some pictures of your beautiful self?

[The David]

Stalker! He only has one post!

[Andrew Brunelle]

If you look at all the health studies ever conducted, then put in the biases, then add the studies people threw out because they didn't fit their bias, you would be busy for probably a thousand years. So, I guess there is no real answer to the optimal diet, it's the diet that makes you feel the best. IT should be obvious that unprocessed foods are probably best, but other than that, eating grass fed animals, if any animals at all, and sticking to mostly organic (although I see a decline in the organic quality now that Wal Mart is a part of it), and not eating so much, limiting your food intake. Try not to eat animals ridden with disease and antibiotics (which, ironically, are helping to breed antibiotic-resistent bacteria), and use common sense. It's a shame eating animals has become a factory farm with horrific conditions and it's not good for anyone. But again, do what makes you feel best.

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by DQueens

On this forum it seems that everyone trying to makeover their diets, and become healthier eaters, are going strictly vegan. What is up with this? {snip}

DQueens, your point is well taken, but, at the risk of stating the obvious, look who runs this site: a vegan personal development entrepreneur married to the publisher of a vegan lifestyle magazine. What did you expect?

[Andrew Brunelle]

I agree with Paul on this one. We were not designed to be vegan, but due to the horrible way in which the animals are treated, they do not yield the proper nutrients and we are now better off avoiding them. If you can get a healthy source of meat from grass-fed animals who are not treated cruelly and are at a healthy body weight, then I am sure it will be better for you. It's sad how awful the animals are treated, I know. And that is why it is not healthy to eat them. They're full of hormones and other wonderful things.

[Bloggeries]

We are omnivores. We are not carnivores nor herbivores. We are omnivores.

Nothing more needs to be said. I try and eat healthy but do not argue with the fact that I'm an omnivorous mammal!

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I've been vegan about 9 years. I don't find it takes a lot of planning or effort.

Generally something you've been doing for 9 years doesn't take a lot of planning or effort.

Transitioning to veganism from SAD does indeed take planning and effort, just as any other major change does. And just like any other major change, it feels easy and normal once you've finished making it...

[The David]

You vegans talk like there are only two types of people:

1. Vegans who eat healthfully.
2. Omnivores who 'engorge' themselves on the SAD.

And you omnivores do likewise:

1. Omnivores who eat only as many animal products as they need, eat lots of plant foods, and exercise regularly.
2. Vegans who live off of french fries just because that's technically vegan.

I think the question we're all trying to answer is: 'What is the best diet?' NOT, 'Are most omnivores unhealthy?' Of course they are. America is an unhealthy nation, and mostly omnivorous. Are most vegans healthy? That may be true. If it is, that's probably because many vegans choose to be vegan because they are already health-conscious.

Beware the straw man.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by The David

You vegans talk like there are only two types of people:

1. Vegans who eat healthfully.
2. Omnivores who 'engorge' themselves on the SAD.
[...]
Beware the straw man.

Ahem? Given that most-to-all-of "you vegans" said no such thing methinks the strawman is a little closer to home.

Nobody thinks it's as simple as you just said.

Ther major dividing line isn't between vegans and omnivores - it's between people who make a conscious decision to eat healthily and work on doing so, and people who don't. And even that's not a firm line - lots of people realise they need to work on their diet and kinda-sorta plan to do something about it one day...

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Bloggeries

We are omnivores. We are not carnivores nor herbivores. We are omnivores.

Nothing more needs to be said. I try and eat healthy but do not argue with the fact that I'm an omnivorous mammal!

O'rly? What makes you think that exactly?

John Coleman: Comparative Anatomy & Taxonomy

[The David]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

O'rly? What makes you think that exactly?

John Coleman: Comparative Anatomy & Taxonomy

I don't necesarily disagree with him, but that was a weak argument.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by The David

I don't necesarily disagree with him, but that was a weak argument.

It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Unless you know some human characteristics that match those of an omnivoire?

[ivylamp]

Gee, this is kind of refreshing! I had no idea that "everyone's idea of healthy eating seems to be vegan". I am turning 51 this year and have been a strict vegetarian for more than 35 years. I have been harrassed most of my life for what I eat and don't eat. I've been lectured by doctors and scolded by strangers. At the moment, I don't think I even know another vegetarian, strict or otherwise. I was just on another thread where someone gave me permission to eat legumes. Why do people care what we eat? Isn't this between us and God? Recently a woman in the grocery store warned me about carbs when she saw me loading my cart with brown rice and chick peas. I guess people think that vegetarians are gentle, because she knew better than to approach the other guy in the line with the pork rinds and cases of soft drinks. I was nice to her. We chatted. I'm a small business owner so I make a point to be nice to people even when I want to say, "Listen, you *******, if one more person says "low carb" to me, I'm going to *** their****. What can I say? You just have to have a sense of humor.

[escapee]

I was just on another thread where someone gave me permission to eat legumes.

Wait wait, I have no control of what you should eat. I was just trying to correct some of the misinformation that you posted. You are free to do so if i made the same mistake. Gee .. i just made another STRICT vegetarian angry .. Cant we just have peace ?

[Matthew Shea]

<rant>
Are we all so insecure in our choices of what we put into our mouths that we need 30 thousand threads and half a million posts all saying the same thing? How many times has this been hashed out here already and why do the petty arguments persist as they do? Can everyone not understand that food is entirely a personal choice? If your logic and your moral sensibilities tell you that it's not OK to eat meat, then don't. If they permit you to do so, then do and leave it at that. Why all the preaching? This is really not a complicated matter, either you do or you don't, but so many are trying to make this proverbial molehill into Mt. Everest.
</rant>

Now, for the sake of offering something constructive and so I'm not being entirely negative, here's an idea: let's keep these kind of threads limited to specific foods. For example: "I'm concerned that I'm not eating a lot of legumes in my diet? Should I worry? What are the pros and cons and what should I watch out for?" It seems to me that a thread that starts out this way could provide a LOT more constructive information than "Why does everyone have to be a vegan?".

[ivylamp]

Originally Posted by escapee

Wait wait, I have no control of what you should eat. I was just trying to correct some of the misinformation that you posted. You are free to do so if i made the same mistake. Gee .. i just made another STRICT vegetarian angry .. Cant we just have peace ?

Yeah, sure...truce. I actually kind of like you....even though you're a pain in the butt. You just rubbed me the wrong way, first disbelieving that long term strict vegetarians exist (because you tried it for three whole months) ......and then trying to tell me what I need to eat! Anyway, I'll probably not be hanging out in the health section anymore. There is way too much garbage going on here. I found another site that is more appropriate for me....has a larger population of strict vegetarian women who are dealing with post menopause issues. This is important for me because I don't have friends who are vegetarian, even my husband is a meat eater. But yeah, no hard feelings, escapee. Hopefully I'll run into you elsewhere on this site.