Questioning all these 'amazing diet' results

[Writertype]

Check out stories of people who really love a given diet-- vegetarianism, veganism, raw food. They will all rave about the abundant energy they have, the decreased need for sleep, how it totally changed their life, how the food tastes so wonderful once you are used to it, etc. Even protein-rich bodybuilding diets (meat rich ones) tend to come with claims of increased energy.

You can also find tons of amazing before and after pictures. That's great-- I have been obese in the past and worked down to a healthy weight (as determined by BMI) and a good body shape so I know how much the transformation can help. I am aware that eating better really does lead to physical and mental benefits. I did it by eating "normal" healthy items, the stuff you would find on the food pyramid-- grilled chicken and fish, rice, lots of vegetables and fruits, milk, and little junk food/soda.

Most of those people with obese 'before' pictures probably ate lots of fried foods, refined sugars, processed food, and general junk like candy, butter, dressings, etc. Pretty much any reasonable diet would change their lives.

So ultimately I wonder if most of these benefits are 90% mental when compared to a health conscious 'food pyramid' based diet (by mental I mean placebo, like actually feeling more happy and confident when you wear your lucky shirt or something). I'm sure some diets are a little healthier than others, but if you get all your required nutrients with the correct amount of calories and couple that with moderate exercise will you really do that much better to switch?

[By the way, I know some will just say 'try it and you'll see!' I might some time, but you have to admit raw food is an intimidatingly inconvenient way to eat for a newbie. I did try eating a lot less meat and dairy over the past few weeks and more vegetables/fruits, and I have come down with a sore throat. Not saying that was the diet's fault, but I'm also not saying I'm impressed!]

[Angela Leeds]

I agree that "going raw" is intimidating. I prefer just to encourage "jack up the raw as much as possible", and for me live green smoothies have made all the difference.

Personally, I was not an "unhealthy" eater when I was overweight, tho... I was a conscious and very informed eater, as far as that went. There are other ways to become obese, unfortunately. I know a lot of vegetarians who are sugar addicts, for example... that's very common. Too much starch & not enuf quality protein is my take on that situation. Anyway, here's my own story, with befores & afters...

My own story...

[liamona]

Wow, Angela, your story is so inspiring! I find it chilling that I had a similar experience to yours when you started eating a lot of processed soy. *shudder*

[bonzaiaphrodite]

I have a similar experience to Angela's (I love your story btw Lady - found it very inspiring as well as similar to my own). I was a healthy eater on a low-meat, high veggie omnivore diet, a good reflection of a healthy FDA approved food pyramid. I had my share of junk of course - I was a college kid and then quit smoking (which led to some junkfood bingeing), but overall a very healthy eater.

Then I went veg*n. Not even crazy healthy vegan, I just mean a good solid beans and veggies with lots of healthy color with dinner and a cupcake for dessert sort of vegan. It was not a matter of going from McDonalds to steamed veggies. It was more like going from steamed veggies with butter to steamed veggies with Earthbalance.

Changed. My. World.

My Story

And, seriously, 'you might as well just try it to see'. That's exactly what I did.

[Datum]

2 Writertype,

Your logic is absolutely correct. The problem with all those "amazing results" is the stories you hear are about people who were in a bad shape changed their diet and now they are in good shape. Just because of this transformation they obviously get more energy, less sleep, and of course they feel better about themselves. And there are plenty of ways to go from bad to good. That is why I liked Steve's story because he was in good shape to begin with and going raw made it even better. I can relate to that. I was in good shape, and going raw made it better. You need to listen to people who already were eating healthy according to a modern standard, and then they try to make it better. In my case going raw was the only healthier option. I tried it and I was amazed with results.

It is tough to convince yourself to try raw when the only good examples in front of you are fat girls who were munching on fries and candy bars. Unfortunately, this diet is not popular enough and there were not enough studies made. However, I would like to point out what can happen only to raw foodist: you indeed need less sleep, your body temperature decreases, bad cholesterol is none-existent, your blood pressure drops, your stamina increases. That is something that science can "see". I am sure there maybe something else.

P.S. it is the problem with many diet sites and books. The reason they lose popularity because they all rotate around losing weight issue. ALL the people who are obese already know that they need to eat better and exercise. They just don't do it. Raw food will never be popular with them; it is way too drastic. It is all about magic pill )))

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by liamona

I find it chilling that I had a similar experience to yours when you started eating a lot of processed soy. *shudder*

You did? Aw... no fun! Thank goodness that's behind us.

Glad you enjoyed me story.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Datum

2 Writertype,

It is tough to convince yourself to try raw when the only good examples in front of you are fat girls who were munching on fries and candy bars.

Ummm.... Speaking for myself, simply not true.

[Datum]

Ummm.... Speaking for myself, simply not true.

Could you please show links to other examples.

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

Personally, I was not an "unhealthy" eater when I was overweight, tho... I was a conscious and very informed eater, as far as that went.

Hey Angela, still reading through your story, but the first thing I have to ask is why you stuck with a diet that was so obviously ravaging your body! Why wait until you gain 75 pounds and feel horrendous day in and day out to stop trying the soy-rich thing, especially when it sounds like you were in great health before?

To Datum, you mentioned some data. Can you link to studies or documentation of lowered body temperatures, lower sleep requirements, lower cholesterol and BP, etc? I am not saying this as an "I bet you made that up" kind of challenge, this is the kind of information that really convinces me and if it's out there I would love to read it!

I would love to find a diet that made me feel upbeat and optimally healthy all day, if raw food is it then it could really be worth it.

Here's another conflict to resolve: raw foodists and vegans make almost exactly the same claims, but raw foodists villify cooked vegan food as if it was a semi-lethal drug! What do you make of that? It makes me a little skeptical of everyones' claims (if the raw foodists are right, the vegans are lying about their amazing results, right? And if the vegans are lying to themselves and others, couldn't raw foodists be doing the same?).

[greeneyedgirl]

Originally Posted by Datum

I would like to point out what can happen only to raw foodist: you indeed need less sleep, your body temperature decreases, bad cholesterol is none-existent, your blood pressure drops, your stamina increases.

I have many of the same issues as WriterType, so I was glad to see your post, Datum. You raise some good points. I think about going raw sometimes and I like to hear of healthy people who went raw and got healthier.

I quoted the above line because it scares me a little when I think of going raw. I already have a low body temperature and low blood pressure. Do you, or anyone else, suppose it might get even lower? I hate having low blood pressure... I get dizzy if I sit in front of a fire or in a hot tub, borderline faint, etc. To be fair, it's still "normal", just at the very end of the "normal" scale for my age and gender.

Otherwise, I am very healthy. No colds for at least 4 years (probably longer, but that's when I started officially keeping track). No allergies. No mucus (I think this is good?) even though I eat a fair bit of dairy and some meat (although lean and organic).

But, I'd love to eat what would make me healthier in the future. And, if that's raw, I'm signing up. I just need to learn and understand it all a little better.

[bonzaiaphrodite]

Originally Posted by Writertype

It makes me a little skeptical of everyones' claims (if the raw foodists are right, the vegans are lying about their amazing results, right? And if the vegans are lying to themselves and others, couldn't raw foodists be doing the same?).

Not at all! Firstly, everybody's body is different and what works for one person may not work for another, especially since so many people go vegan incorrectly, and go raw incorrectly.

But going from an omni diet to a balanced vegan diet made me feel AWESOME. And now going from a vegan diet to a RAW vegan diet is having some positive affects as well (it's only been 2 weeks so I can't say conclusively if it's better). The fact that both feel good and both are improvements over a standard omni diet is NOT in any way contradictory to the validity of each one independently.

[Datum]

I am not going to browse the net to answer all your questions with links to various studies. As far sleep, it is personal experience of every raw foodist. As far as I know there are no sleep studies done with raw foodists. But here a couple of links I know of.

From Steve's Experience:

Body Temperature

My body temperature dropped only slightly during the course of the trial. My average body temperature during the first week of the trial was 98.5°. During the second week of the trial, it was 98.2°. The reason I decided to track my body temperature was that I’d read that long-term raw foodists can have significantly lower body temperatures, so I wanted to see if there’d be any change during the first 30 days. Although I did experience a slight drop in body temperature, it wasn’t particularly severe.

Blood Pressure

My average blood pressure reading for the first 5 days of the trial was 131/76. For the last 5 days of the trial, it was 117/73. So the net drop in blood pressure was 14/3. My lowest reading of the trial was 110/65, which occurred on day 30.

I have been raw for the past 2 months. My regular temperature was 98.2-98.5. I just measured mine, it is 97.5.

Here the link to a book about evolution of human brain. They mention a bunch of studies with raw foodists. preview | Left in the Dark

As far as cholesterol. You do not need any studies. Our body manufactures cholesterol and we do not need any outside source of cholesterol. The problem occurs that when we consume animal products, which contain it. Plants simply do not have it.

[eruso]

Steve wasn't eating 'junk" before, he was eating a healthy vegan diet and now that he went raw he apparently feels better than ever.

[liamona]

I didn't know about the low body temperature side-effect from going raw. Has anyone had their thyroid hormones checked? Low body temperature can be a sign of suppressed thyroid function. A lot of health practitioners want you to take your temperature several times a day and record the numbers.

Like greeneyedgirl, I have extremely low blood pressure, so I wonder what would happen if I went raw? Would I pass out from severe dizziness? I put tons of salt on my food, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by Datum

I am not going to browse the net to answer all your questions with links to various studies.

With a name like Datum I assumed you would have already done so for yourself! Anyhow, I googleScholared it and found some interesting literature. Titles are included after each factoid so others can read up as well.

Some pros:
-Helps fibromyalgia patients (Fibromyalgia syndrome improved using a mostly raw vegetarian diet: An observational study)
-Lowers cholesterol and triglycerides (Long-Term Consumption of a Raw Food Diet Is Associated with Favorable Serum LDL Cholesterol and Triglycerides but Also with Elevated Plasma Homocysteine and Low Serum HDL Cholesterol in Humans)

Some cons:
-"The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be recommended on a long-term basis.” (Consequences of a Long-Term Raw Food Diet on Body Weight and Menstruation: Results of a Questionnaire Survey)
-Raw foodists have more dental erosion (Dental Erosions in Subjects Living on a Raw Food Diet)
-Many raw foodists have low serum HDL and B12 deficiency (Long-Term Consumption of a Raw Food Diet Is Associated with Favorable Serum LDL Cholesterol and Triglycerides but Also with Elevated Plasma Homocysteine and Low Serum HDL Cholesterol in Humans)

This was a very brief scan of the literature (and I do mean very brief), but it doesn't look like there is a strong endorsement for raw food scientifically.

And for Bonzai's:
"The fact that both feel good and both are improvements over a standard omni diet is NOT in any way contradictory to the validity of each one independently."

I agree-- it could make sense that on a scale from 1-100, a healthy omni diet is a 50, vegetarianism is a 60, veganism is an 80, and raw food is a 100 or something like that. What I wonder is why so many posters talk about how they feel like crap when they eat cooked food. I don't think I'm in that much of a mental fog, although who knows, maybe I am!

At any rate, I'm glad to hear it's working for you! I'm not trying to discourage anyone from following what works for them, just trying to get some 'diet conscious' people's perspectives on nutrition.

[bonzaiaphrodite]

Originally Posted by Writertype

I agree-- it could make sense that on a scale from 1-100, a healthy omni diet is a 50, vegetarianism is a 60, veganism is an 80, and raw food is a 100 or something like that. What I wonder is why so many posters talk about how they feel like crap when they eat cooked food. I don't think I'm in that much of a mental fog, although who knows, maybe I am!

I'm not going to be the 'enlightened' person trying to preach from up high (I hate that person, ick! ), but I will speak from my own personal experience.

I had no idea how much 'fog' I was in, and how much clearer I could feel, until I went omni -> veg*n. I think that once you experience that level of clarity, you become much more sensitive to it, which is perhaps why people on this board are always harping on about it (myself included).

In part, going Raw is an attempt to reach that next level of clarity, although thus far I personally cannot say that I am actually fully experiencing that. But I have mitigating circumstances and a couple of variables. I'm willing to give this a solid trial. So far so good.

[Datum]

-"The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be recommended on a long-term basis.” (Consequences of a Long-Term Raw Food Diet on Body Weight and Menstruation: Results of a Questionnaire Survey)

That applies to any diet. You can gain weight, you lose weight. Just have to know how to do it right.

-Raw foodists have more dental erosion (Dental Erosions in Subjects Living on a Raw Food Diet)

That sounds right. But then again any diet can lead to dental issues. One just has to take care of it.

Many raw foodists have low serum HDL and B12 deficiency (Long-Term Consumption of a Raw Food Diet Is Associated with Favorable Serum LDL Cholesterol and Triglycerides but Also with Elevated Plasma Homocysteine and Low Serum HDL Cholesterol in Humans)

Elevated Plasma Homocysteine and Low Serum HDL Cholesterol not good news for "normal" people, cause it can lead to heart and artery problems. Raw foodists do not consume cholesterol or animal fat; therefore, naturally HDL will be low because there are no LDL issues.

B12 was discussed multiple times here. The idea behind raw food is too eat just like nature intended. In nature you would not wash fruits, so would consume enough B12 by eating bacteria on fruits. Since we have to wash fruits, we must take B12 supplements.

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by bonzaiaphrodite

veg*n

Also, newbie question: does veg*n = vegan? If so, why type veg*n instead?

And liamona and greeneyedgirl's question is an interesting one-- if you run low on BP and temperature anyhow, what effects would you expect from going raw? This isn't my case, buy I wonder if anyone has experience with that?

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by Datum

Elevated Plasma Homocysteine and Low Serum HDL Cholesterol not good news for "normal" people, cause it can lead to heart and artery problems. Raw foodists do not consume cholesterol or animal fat; therefore, naturally HDL will be low because there are no LDL issues.

B12 was discussed multiple times here. The idea behind raw food is too eat just like nature intended. In nature you would not wash fruits, so would consume enough B12 by eating bacteria on fruits. Since we have to wash fruits, we must take B12 supplements.

Interesting points-- I never thought of it that way. If you don't have LDL problems, you might not need high HDL to prevent atherosclerotic plaque buildup. Makes sense.

Do you just take a multivitamin to get enough B12?

As for the nature intended argument, I have heard various slants (especially that cooking enabled our large brain size, small tooth size, etc.). I haven't looked into the arguments much, but what are peoples' take on that?

Also, everyone likes to point out that we weren't designed to eat meat because of our flat grinding teeth, intestinal length (long relative to body length), etc., but what about our eyes? They are forward facing and binocular-- just what you need to chase down prey, not what you need to scan for predators while you munch on veggies! Maybe we have a mix of carnivorous and herbivorous traits?

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by bonzaiaphrodite

I had no idea how much 'fog' I was in, and how much clearer I could feel, until I went omni -> veg*n. .

Apparently the "veg*n" thing is a person of indeterminate status as far as the vegetarian/vegan spectrum -- I was curious so I looked it up. It reminds me of how some observant Jews say "G-d" instead of "God."

Anyway, as far as the fog, it could be that some people are sensitive to some chemicals commonly found in foods that are restrictricted in vegan, veggie, etc., diets. I was vegetarian for years, tried veganism multiple times, and never had a lifting of fog. I feel more mentally clear some times, but I can often attribute the difference to other environmental factors.

[Datum]

As for the nature intended argument, I have heard various slants (especially that cooking enabled our large brain size, small tooth size, etc.). I haven't looked into the arguments much, but what are peoples' take on that?

Also, everyone likes to point out that we weren't designed to eat meat because of our flat grinding teeth, intestinal length (long relative to body length), etc., but what about our eyes? They are forward facing and binocular-- just what you need to chase down prey, not what you need to scan for predators while you munch on veggies! Maybe we have a mix of carnivorous and herbivorous traits?

Wow, that is a dead end right there. No matter how many arguments I can find, you probably will be able to find twice as many. The reasoning I believe in is that the only way for us to have such a complex brain, we would need complex food. Fruits are the only source that is available to provide us with protein, carbs, fat, vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals in one serving. The most intelligent animals out there are fruit eaters. Yes, they may eat a rabbit or a mouse once in while but they mainly eat fruits.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by sirkinm

Anyway, as far as the fog, it could be that some people are sensitive to some chemicals commonly found in foods that are restrictricted in vegan, veggie, etc., diets. I was vegetarian for years, tried veganism multiple times, and never had a lifting of fog. I feel more mentally clear some times, but I can often attribute the difference to other environmental factors.

You may be sensitive to Salicylates which are in most fruits and vegetables. Check out the Plant Poisons and Rotten Stuff blog, written by someone who is extremely sensitive to food chemicals. She has a long page listing symptoms.

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by liamona

You may be sensitive to Salicylates which are in most fruits and vegetables. Check out the Plant Poisons and Rotten Stuff blog, written by someone who is extremely sensitive to food chemicals. She has a long page listing symptoms.

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that I find myself in a fog - I don't. Though I realize that you can never really know until you're outside of it.

Thanks for the link!

[bonzaiaphrodite]

Originally Posted by Writertype

Also, newbie question: does veg*n = vegan? If so, why type veg*n instead?

And liamona and greeneyedgirl's question is an interesting one-- if you run low on BP and temperature anyhow, what effects would you expect from going raw? This isn't my case, buy I wonder if anyone has experience with that?

'Veg*n' is sort of a catch-all phrase for vegetarian/vegan/strict vegetarian/etc, although it usually is written as an easier way of saying 'strict vegetarian'. A strict vegetarian is someone who maybe is a vegan, except they eat honey (grey area). Or maybe they *eat* vegan, but they are not actually vegan (vegan is not a diet, it is a lifestyle, and excludes all animal products in food, cosmetics, clothing, textiles, etc etc etc). So a strict vegetarian is basically a vegan with a qualifier.

I am 99.99% vegan in both diet and lifestyle, but I do have a certain qualifier (in italics at the end), so I cannot call myself a vegan. I know it's a minor discrepancy, but words are important and I would not want to devalue a word that so many, including myself, hold so dear to their hearts. So I'm veg*n.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Writertype

Hey Angela, still reading through your story, but the first thing I have to ask is why you stuck with a diet that was so obviously ravaging your body! Why wait until you gain 75 pounds and feel horrendous day in and day out to stop trying the soy-rich thing, especially when it sounds like you were in great health before?

My story doesn't make it clear that I didn't *know* that the soy was causing the problem, and that I was desperately trying to figure what the problem was?

If not, I should re-write it.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Datum

Could you please show links to other examples.

I've come across more than one raw foodist online who was previously a vegetarian and "eating healthy" as he or she understood it, and definitely not eating the S.A.D. diet you described.

However, I'm not the one making the claims that there are *no* examples of someone eating healthy before they discovered the power of raw foods and experienced a major change. As that's your own assertion, if you want your words to be credible, perhaps you should do some research yourself.

It isn't a point I really care about. What I do care about is that *anyone* will experience more vitality when they jack up their consumption of living foods.

[Writertype]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

My story doesn't make it clear that I didn't *know* that the soy was causing the problem, and that I was desperately trying to figure what the problem was?

If not, I should re-write it.

What I gathered from your story was:

Time 1: You are healthy and happy
Time 2: You make a major diet change and become miserable
Time 3: You change the miserable diet (by going raw) and go back to being healthy and happy

I might have misread, but I thought even though you didn't know it was soy you started feeling really crappy and the only major change on your radar that could have created that was the dietary one. It seems like, even not knowing soy was the culprit, you would have undone any major lifestyle changes right away when things started going bad.

But if there's any confusion it's probably on my part, sometimes I tend to skim! And when I tried to reopen your link to scan over again it didn't navigate to the page (might be because I'm creating this post).

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Writertype

What I gathered from your story was:

Time 1: You are healthy and happy
Time 2: You make a major diet change and become miserable
Time 3: You change the miserable diet (by going raw) and go back to being healthy and happy

Time 2: Wasn't a major diet change at that time. As I said, I've always been into health and was already quite knowledgeable about nutrition, all things considered. I just started to get more into it, and that starting bringing the soy in.

I can see why you have the impression that I made a major diet change, tho. I'm going to tweak that part of my story to be clearer.

It seems like, even not knowing soy was the culprit, you would have undone any major lifestyle changes right away when things started going bad.

That would make sense. But as I said... no "major lifestyle change" implemented at that point, and nothing to undo.

[Angela Leeds]

Thanks for your feedback, Writertype. I clarified my story. I can see how it gave the impression you got, so I'm glad you said something!

[heatherluv111]

Writertype wrote: "Here's another conflict to resolve: raw foodists and vegans make almost exactly the same claims, but raw foodists villify cooked vegan food as if it was a semi-lethal drug! What do you make of that? It makes me a little skeptical of everyones' claims (if the raw foodists are right, the vegans are lying about their amazing results, right? And if the vegans are lying to themselves and others, couldn't raw foodists be doing the same?)."

Writertype also mentioned the 1 to 100 scale, with the raw diet being 100, vegan being an 80.

I thought I should post in response to this thread two links people might find interesting (Writertype, particularly). They are written by a woman who was a cooked vegan for 12 years and then went raw. She documents, in highly interesting language (she's a very good writer), the totally revolution of body/mind/spirit she goes thru. She has now been raw for more than 8 years.

My Raw Story and Photos

Article: My Raw Evolution

Highly recommended reading!