Vegetarianism

[ginkgo]

I saw that the thread about this was closed due to personal attacks. Someone asks where vegetarians would get B-12 and omega-3s centuries ago. It is said that people used to eat a lot of purslane. It is a green with lots of omega-3s.

As far as B-12, the supplemement comes from growing it. Foods today are too clean. There is B-12 in the soil and it is also in your feces or stool. When foods were not as clean, there was a lot more B-12 on them. It is best to get vitamin D from the sun, but mushrooms have it also. Also there are many plants with B-12 but not the ones we eat. This site, Vegetarian, lists some of them like maca, aloe vera, dong quai and others.

[RRR]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

I saw that the thread about this was closed due to personal attacks. Someone asks where vegetarians would get B-12 and omega-3s centuries ago. It is said that people used to eat a lot of purslane. It is a green with lots of omega-3s.

There is B-12 in the soil and it is also in your feces or stool. When foods were not as clean, there was a lot more B-12 on them. It is best to get vitamin D from the sun, but mushrooms have it also. Also there are many plants with B-12 but not the ones we eat.

B12 is all about poop. Animals such as fish, cows, chickens aren't magically endowed with B12.. They just eat their own poop. Somehow I doubt that humans are above playing with and accidentally eating a significant amount of poop based on the actions of our poop flinging brethren the chimps. Sorry Humans - you evolved to eat poop.

That being said. I don't think humans are above eating a significant amount of flesh. We have a tendency to make species go extinct. In a world where you can't get 20 bananas a day it doesn't hurt to eat some cave-bear. Outside of jungles and orchards there isn't enough naturally grown fruit for humans to survive well in the wild; Grassland humans have to be hunters.

On Mushrooms - As a side note - they also grow excellently in poop and would be a great source of B12. As another strange side-note many poop dwelling mushrooms contain psilocybin, a powerful hallucinogen, a common ingredient in early shamanic cultures. (Ever wonder why we worshiped cattle?) In fact early alcohol, honey wine, was a leftover product of hallucinogenic mushroom preservation techniques. (I hope nutritionists will someday scoff at the psilocybin deficiencies in modern Western diets)

As for Omega 3 I come to the same line of questioning. Where does a fish or a cow get its omega 3? Where do other herbivores get omega 3s? According to the internet fish get their Omega 3 from algae. Cattle eat grass, I'd assume thats where they get their nutrients. Omega 3s are in a lot of things found in the wild: berries, veges, leaves, nuts, and flesh. I wish it were as simple as eating poop, I'm not sure what process makes plants create Omega 3's.

Whats the point of this discussion again?

If it is a contest in mental masturbation I clock in at 43 minutes and 3 wikipedia searches.

[sepiagal]

Too funny.

Should I conclude that real vegetarians eat poop (for their B12).

In all seriousness...

Blue green algae and spirulina I think may have B12. But I've read that the form may not be easily absorbed. But vegetarians may be able to absorb it because their GI tract may be more alkaline than omnivores.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by RRR

As for Omega 3 I come to the same line of questioning. Where does a fish or a cow get its omega 3? Where do other herbivores get omega 3s? According to the internet fish get their Omega 3 from algae. Cattle eat grass, I'd assume thats where they get their nutrients. Omega 3s are in a lot of things found in the wild: berries, veges, leaves, nuts, and flesh. I wish it were as simple as eating poop, I'm not sure what process makes plants create Omega 3's.

Wow, it's interesting that this issue is so misunderstood. I'll repeat this from my previous posts: flax and chia seeds contain alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), which the HUMAN body, under optimal conditions, convert extremely small amounts of (like 5 to 10%) to the long-chain fatty acids EPA and DHA. That is why the best sources of omega-3 fatty acids for HUMANS are not grass or flax or chia, but yucky stuff like cod liver and animal brains—they contain loads of it. No bodily conversion necessary.

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

[SIZE="2"]I saw that the thread about this was closed due to personal attacks.

I was disappointed that the thread was closed -- I thought it was a fun, spirited debate, but I guess the moderators felt otherwise. There was a bit of poking fun, but I wouldn't go so far as to say personal attacks were deployed.

ANYWAY, I think liamona's comments have the ring of truth: There are obscure places to find all the essential nutrients for proper human development, but proponents of non-omni diets seem to be stretching to claim that these were readily accessible. And to the poop-proponents among us, I suspect that humans had much the same aversion to dealing with poo millions of years ago as we do today.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by sepiagal

Should I conclude that real vegetarians eat poop (for their B12).

I once saw this one video called "Two Girls One Cup" which now makes sense: it was all about vitamin B12!

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by funchy

I once saw this one video called "Two Girls One Cup" which now makes sense: it was all about vitamin B12!

Despite what you've seen on the internet, young women do not typically seek out their B12 in that fashion. And no, those other videos you've seen do not represent a conventional way to obtain protein.

[ginkgo]

OK, I guess it was my mistake buying into the talk about our ancestors and what they did. Humans have brains to develop all this technology so we can take B-12 supplements. A study showed that many meat eaters have a B-12 deficiency. My mother ate lots of meat like normal meats but also cows liver and chicken livers and chopped chicken liver (a popular Jewish food) that have huge amounts of B-12.

My mother still needed more B-12 and would get shots of it from the doctor. Saying that we should live like our ancesters is like saying that we should adopt the superstitions like when you sneeze a demon is trying to posess you. That is why you say "God bless you." We should not use condoms since our ancestors did not use them.

We should rape and pillage like our ancestors did. Some of us should eat people since some of our ancestors were cannibals. We should stop using electricity. We should be scavengers like our ancestors and not grow food. We should worship statues like most people did in the Fertile Crescent before the Jews came along and ruined idol worship and of course stop using the internet and computers.

Our ancestors had much shorter lifespans than us so we can learn how to have shorter lifespans from our ancestors. Keep in mind that this forum is for smart people so please try to use your intelligence. Little kids refer to feces, manure or stool as poop.

My sources say (as far as omega-3s) that when you consume ALA your body converts 158% of it into DHA and EPAs. If you bother to tell me your source of your percentages then I will tell you mine. I made it up. Of course there are many sources of information from stupid people.

You might have heard on the news that a congressman said that since most crime in the U.S. is commited by blacks, we should make a law forcing all pregnant black women to get abortions. Maybe Obama will go for that. See I can also talk like I am a half witted stoopid persan whoo dus not even no how to spell rite.

If something is bad for you (like meat) then the less you eat of it, the better for your health. A woman from Japan says that the people there eat meat but much smaller amonts than Americans. They also eat much smaller amounts than Americans. So Americans eat excessive amounts of foods since we are the richest country in the world. One person figured out that the average American eats 7 times as much as the average Chinese person daily.

I am sure that our ancestors ate a lot less than us since they had to work hard to get their food. While we can sit at home while watching TV and have chicken wings, steak sandwiches, burgers and pizza delivered to us. So we get a lot less exercise than our ancestors. So one healthy thing about hunting with spears is that you get exercise doing it.

[sepiagal]

Nutritional deficiencies happen for reasons other than dietary insufficiencies.

B12 is important for methylation. A good deal of the population has methylation problems - either undermethylating or overmethylating.

There probably isn't a person who doesn't have single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). These SNPs or mutations can be managed with diet, supplements and lifestyle changes.

Some people may benefit from a vegatrian diet, for example; but its not right everyone. Not everyone has the same genetic makeup, same mutations. But diets like veganism do require some supplementation (regardless of genetic profile). If veganism isn't the best diet for your genetic profile then you need even more supplements than normally expected.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

My sources say (as far as omega-3s) that when you consume ALA your body converts 158% of it into DHA and EPAs. If you bother to tell me your source of your percentages then I will tell you mine. I made it up. Of course there are many sources of information from stupid people.

Maybe so, but many studies show that the conversion rate is low. I couldn't find my favorite sources, but here's one of many you can find from a cursory Google search:

"Extremely limited synthesis of long chain polyunsaturates in adults: implications for their dietary essentiality and use as supplements"
Applied Physiology, Nutrition, and Metabolism, Volume 32, Number 4, 1 August 2007 , pp. 619-634(16)

"although mammals have the necessary enzymes to make the long-chain PUFA from the parent PUFA, in vivo studies in humans show that ≍5% of ALA is converted to EPA and<0.5% of ALA is converted to DHA."

Here's a quote from the Canadian Flax Council, which has tons of citations at the end of the newsletter you can look up:

Efficiency of Conversion of ALA.
Estimates of the conversion of ALA to EPA range from 0.2% to 8%, 2,15 with young women showing a conversion rate as high as 21%. 16 Conversion of ALA to DPA is estimated at 0.13% to 6%, 10 with women showing a conversion rate on the higher end (6%). 16

ALA conversion to DHA appears to be limited in humans, with most studies showing a conversion rate of about 0.05%, 10,17 although one study reported a figure of 4%. 18 Here again, young women appear to convert more ALA to DHA than men do – as much as 9% of ingested ALA may be converted to DHA in young women"
"METABOLISM OF ALPHA-LINOLENIC ACID"

[ginkgo]

That is very good information. I say that all rules have exceptions, except some. So I am a vegan but not an anal retentive vegan so I take some cod liver oil. Besides the EPA and DHA it has a lot of vitamin A and vitamin D. I read that Boston was pretty much built on cod fish fishing.

But it concentrates the mercury and other poisons in it so I use pharmaceutical grade where all the poisons have been taken out. They predict that in 50 years, all the fish in the ocean will be inedible.

[Kosmos]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

That is very good information. I say that all rules have exceptions, except some. So I am a vegan but not an anal retentive vegan so I take some cod liver oil. Besides the EPA and DHA it has a lot of vitamin A and vitamin D. I read that Boston was pretty much built on cod fish fishing.

But it concentrates the mercury and other poisons in it so I use pharmaceutical grade where all the poisons have been taken out. They predict that in 50 years, all the fish in the ocean will be inedible.

Well, then you're not even vegetarian.

[painofsalvation]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

That is very good information. I say that all rules have exceptions, except some. So I am a vegan but not an anal retentive vegan so I take some cod liver oil. Besides the EPA and DHA it has a lot of vitamin A and vitamin D. I read that Boston was pretty much built on cod fish fishing.

But it concentrates the mercury and other poisons in it so I use pharmaceutical grade where all the poisons have been taken out. They predict that in 50 years, all the fish in the ocean will be inedible.

You can find a vegan source of EPA and DHA on this website.

[Zuvuya42]

I read somewhere that the bacteria in our intestines convert the cobalt in the soil to b vitamins, including b-12. People used to eat an amount of dirt before everyone was obsessed with washing every single thing they put in their body. Unfortunately, the store washes most veggies to some degree (the mist that most stuff gets sprayed with rinses it off), but i bet farmers markets have some real, unwashed vegetables. My answer to this was to stop washing my organic veggies - i havent been sick a day in 5 years (saying the mantra "I only use my body for health" works well), so im not concerned with contamination.
Perhaps its in poop because the creatures making it are consuming dirt?

Some good sources are mushrooms, raw dairy (you said vegetarian, yes?), nuts, avocados, fermented foods like stinky tofu, kimchi, sauerkraut, and finally nutrtional yeast and Vegemite (i think its in Vegemite).

In response to RRR - I love the McKenna-esque side note!

[liamona]

If you feel well, you are probably getting enough vitamin B12. However, even Jack Norris, Registered Dietitian and Director of Vegan Outreach thinks that you can't reliably get B12 from solely plant sources.

"Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It?"

"The overwhelming consensus in the mainstream nutrition community, as well as among vegan health professionals, is that plant foods do not provide vitamin B12. [...] Despite this, some vegan advocates still believe that "plant foods provide all the nutrients necessary for optimal health" and, therefore, do not address vitamin B12 when promoting the vegan diet. [...] The result is that many vegans do not eat B12 fortified foods or supplements. Many have developed overt B12 deficiency. In some cases, the symptoms have cleared up after taking B12 supplements, but not everyone has been so lucky."

The article is also available in a handy PDF format, but be warned it's long (49 pages).

[liamona]

Originally Posted by painofsalvation

You can find a vegan source of EPA and DHA on this website.

Isn't there anything available in the States? $20 a month (not including shipping) seems a bit steep. What do poor vegans do?

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Kosmos

Well, then you're not even vegetarian.

This section is about health and fitness, not titles. I do this for health and do not care about titles. If you want some titles, President Ronald Reagan was a heterosexual thesbian in a monagomous relationship. Sir Paul McCartney is a knight. I used to be a chemist for the U.S. Government and I am a nutritionist, ethnobotanical herbalist and a webmaster.

I said that I was not an anal retentive vegan with a holier than thou attitude like many vegans. As you well know titles is all about ego. Also if it was about titles, how long do you need to go without animal products to be a vegan? 10 hours? So there are no rules to these titles.

I take B-12 supplements. They are the cheapest vitamins. Why? Some people take 1,000 mg of vitamin C tablets. 500 mg of B-12 is enough to last you over 100 years. The recommended daily allowance (RDA) of vitamin C is 60 mg. The RDA of vitamin B-12 is 6 one thousands of a mg (6/1000 mg).

For more on the discussion about the best diet, here is a group that has worked on this issue for a while. They eat 85% raw food and 15% healthy cooked food. They do not call themselves vegan but do not eat meat, fish, eggs or dairy. They tried many variations and found that 85% raw has the same health benefits as all raw, but it was much easier to follow. The cooked food comes at the end of the day as a reward for eating all raw during the day. They did this work so that millions could do it and benefit from it. It is especially good for people with health problems.

See their diet and lifestyle guidelines under most dramatic testimonials I ever heard on this page: Healing. It tells about a minister that suffered from severe depression, anxiety, bi-polar disorder and a massive list of physical problems. He healed all of them with a change of diet and lifestyle. They take sublingual B-12 supplements since they got tested for B-12 after being on their diet for years and there were low levels of it found. It lists all the things they eat and do not eat.

Apparently there are different forms of B-12 and some do not work in the human body. People used to get more vitamin B-12 when they had more bacteria in their diet. There are different forms (analogues) of B-12 and some are inactive. They have not yet tested if the B-12 in the above foods are active or not. A lack of active B-12 can cause too high levels of homocysteine and make the artery walls too thin. This leads to strokes, heart attacks and aneurysms. Meat is not a good source since it causes you to need more.

Thanks for the vegan sources of DHA and EPA. The cod liver oil also has vitamin D which I would not need to worry about if I lived in southern TX, FL or CA. This and sunlight are only 2 good natural souces of it (vitamins are man-made).