Evolution question for vegans and raw foodists.

[Datum]

My sister and I recently went to a dentist, and the dentist told her that she has no wisdom teeth. That made me think about evolution, I researched that subject and found out that apparently 20%-25% of people are born without wisdom teeth. Wisdom teeth had their use when our ancestors survived only on vegetation. They had longer jaws, and extra teeth were a perfect fit. Same can be said about appendix. Our ancestors had longer intestine because they needed to digest all that leafy stuff. My point is that maybe there is no need to deny that we actually evolved to eat meat. We are definitely more herbivores than carnivores, but we are not 100% herbivores any more.
From my personal experience of eating raw food I can tell, that I am feeling much better when I am eating fruits and vegs, but I feel weak. When I eat mainly meat I feel exhausted and tired most of the time. But a little meat and mostly fruits and vegs, and I feel perfect. It is a perfect fit.

[TDRock]

so eat that.

I don't particularly need any ancestral/scientific/evolutionary justification to eat the way that I do (vegan). My diet has come to be through my own personal evolution of knowing what feels best for me.

[funchy]

I'm sorry, but I think your logic is flawed.

The purpose of the appendix is debated, and perhaps it really is vestigial. However, not having one does NOT shorten your intestinal tract. Our digestive system still does tend to resemble the herbivores more (length, surface area, and other characteristics), with or without the appendix.

Wisdom teeth aren't so much useless as they don't fit in our modern, smaller, less-muscled jaw. I had to have my surgically removed because they just did not fit. If we were "evolving" towards being carnivores, I'd expect to see big canine teeth reappearing. Primates have bigger canine teeth than us and bigger jaws suitable for possible tearing meat, however, some species of primate are almost completely vegetarian. We have the flat teeth of a herbivore. Look inside a cat's mouth and then inside a horse's. Do we have the sharp, serrated teeth with little to no molars (eg cat) or the flat teeth with many grinding surfaces (eg. horse)?



Do you see pointy sharp teeth such as in skull #3 (cat) in our mouth? IMHO, no.

[Datum]

2 funchy,
OK, about the teeth of carnivores. Lets think evolution. We do not need those sharp teeth because we cook meat. We cooked meat since the fire was tamed. We do not need those sharp teeth because we do not need to rip the skin off carcasses or to penetrate the skin. We evolve to better fit our lifestyle. I believe that we initially designed to eat flora. But since we've been living up north for thousands of years, abundance of fruits and vegs was not available, so we ate mainly meat. I mean you have to accept that there is a possibility that after hundreds of generations we changed. We are not 100% what we used to be when we started eating mammoths.

[DayInTheLife]

My point is that maybe there is no need to deny that we actually evolved to eat meat. We are definitely more herbivores than carnivores, but we are not 100% herbivores any more.

Well, I don't think that means we evolved to eat meat. I think eating meat became beneficial, so naturally we adapted to better suit that activity.

IMO, what our ancestors did should not determine what people choose to eat. Conditions have changed, there is no reason to live the same way if another diet feels better to you. Today it is relatively easy to survive without meat; I suspect it was not for most people in history.

[StephanieShine]

Actually the shrinking of our jaw has more to do with the invention of fire so long ago. We needed bigger lower jaws to chew tougher, raw meat right off the bone and skin of 'freshly' dead animals. Fire made it easier for humans to eat meat. A smaller law also requires a smaller jaw bone. A smaller jaw bone is easier to move and requires less muscle, leaving more room for an expanding brain. All this happened over of millions of years of course and virtually nothing has changed since humans began forming tracable cultures.

[StephanieShine]

Originally Posted by DayInTheLife

Well, I don't think that means we evolved to eat meat.

I think eating meat became beneficial, so naturally we adapted to better suit that activity.

You are saying the exact same thing here but contradicting yourself. You dont think we evolved to eat meat, but then 'it became beneficial' so we evolved to eat meat?

[DoctorB2B]

Originally Posted by Datum

2 funchy,
OK, about the teeth of carnivores. Lets think evolution. We do not need those sharp teeth because we cook meat. We cooked meat since the fire was tamed. We do not need those sharp teeth because we do not need to rip the skin off carcasses or to penetrate the skin. We evolve to better fit our lifestyle. I believe that we initially designed to eat flora. But since we've been living up north for thousands of years, abundance of fruits and vegs was not available, so we ate mainly meat. I mean you have to accept that there is a possibility that after hundreds of generations we changed. We are not 100% what we used to be when we started eating mammoths.

Lets get something straight .... humans didn't evolve to eat meat because we have cognitive thought and were the only species to develop the ability to heat up food. This is not a characteristic of drift or natural selection, etc.

Even if it were the case, the ability to tenderize meat wouldn't have narrowed out some of the herbivores from the population.

[KeithS]

We can eat what ever we want, we can handle to eat anything we want. I have pretty obvious canines in my mouth and I don't have to get my wisdom teeth taken out.

I don't think anyone here can say with 100% certainty why and how we evolved.

I will continue to eat meat and love it, and I will eat plants and love it. Blended together into a smoothie.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by KeithS

I will continue to eat meat and love it, and I will eat plants and love it. Blended together into a smoothie.

A meat smoothie?

[funchy]

Originally Posted by StephanieShine

We needed bigger lower jaws to chew tougher, raw meat right off the bone and skin of 'freshly' dead animals.

Jaw size or strength does not indicate how much meat a species eats. Grazing herbivores have strong, deep jaws for grinding. Look at the large jaw size of a cow, for example.

Fire made it easier for humans to eat meat.

I'd argue that fire make it POSSIBLE for humans to safely eat meat, not easier. Without it, we get food poisoning and parasites far too easily from uncooked fresh meat and/or carrion.

If someone believes modern humans should eat lots of meat, I challenge them to go eat it raw for a few weeks Your body can't cope with E Coli, salmonella, Campylobacter, the parasite trichinosis, vibrio, and others. Our bodies just can't cope. If we evolved to eat meat, why can't we handle it without it behind heavily preserved & well cooked? Can you name one other carnivore/omnivore species that must cook meat before eating it?

[IceWolf]

I'd argue that fire make it POSSIBLE for humans to safely eat meat, not easier. Without it, we get food poisoning and parasites far too easily from uncooked fresh meat and/or carrion.

If someone believes modern humans should eat lots of meat, I challenge them to go eat it raw for a few weeks Your body can't cope with E Coli, salmonella, Campylobacter, the parasite trichinosis, vibrio, and others. Our bodies just can't cope. If we evolved to eat meat, why can't we handle it without it behind heavily preserved & well cooked? Can you name one other carnivore/omnivore species that must cook meat before eating it?

I've noticed you bringing up this point a few times. But humans can eat raw meat, and rarely get sick from it.

The Eskimos traditionally ate almost 100% meat and fish, with a good proportion of it raw, and were in good health.

The author at rawpaleodiet.org eats a large amount of raw meat, liver, fish and eggs.

Looks like there was a topic about eating raw animal products on this forum; and some members here, and people they know, eat raw meat and organs. Actually, I see you posted in it.

I'd rather not eat raw meat myself, but I don't like to see you deny that some people do eat it and are doing fine.

[DayInTheLife]

Originally Posted by StephanieShine

You are saying the exact same thing here but contradicting yourself. You dont think we evolved to eat meat, but then 'it became beneficial' so we evolved to eat meat?

Yeah reading it again I'm not sure what I meant

[bonzaiaphrodite]

I think that, at this point in our scientific understanding, trying to use evolutionary biology as a sole justification for dietary behavior is simply unrealistic. We know too little to make such definitive claims.

Eat consciously, listen to your body and inner ethics, and do what works for you.

*Personally*, I don't care if I have a mouth full of canines and a 4-inch gut. For me, I am a veg*n because I CAN be, not because I 'should' be. I have the luxury of living my morality, and so I do. I am a scientist, but my veg*nism is utterly unrelated to that.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by IceWolf

I've noticed you bringing up this point a few times. But humans can eat raw meat, and rarely get sick from it.

Please cite your sources.



The sources I have show people very sick or die each year from uncooked meat or things contaminated by touching raw meat or untreated animal fluids/feces.

Here are just a few links on the dangers of eating uncooked animal products:

Trichinellosis Fact Sheet | Division of Parasitic Diseases | CDC

FDA highlights dangers of uncooked ingredients

The Dangers of Mystery Meat

The Hidden Dangers Of Uncooked Salmon

Chapter 10 Food Safety

Bad To The Bone: Professor Advises Against Raw Meat Diet For Pets

Trichinosis


My personal favorite deadly meat disease is BSE which is neither bacteria nor virus. Normal cooking does not destroy the prions, and there is no cure. American beef farmers wanted to test for it in their own cattle before shipping them, and our own Federal government BANNED them from spending their own money to test their own cows??????

[kat]

Originally Posted by Datum

My sister and I recently went to a dentist, and the dentist told her that she has no wisdom teeth. That made me think about evolution, I researched that subject and found out that apparently 20%-25% of people are born without wisdom teeth. Wisdom teeth had their use when our ancestors survived only on vegetation. They had longer jaws, and extra teeth were a perfect fit. Same can be said about appendix. Our ancestors had longer intestine because they needed to digest all that leafy stuff. My point is that maybe there is no need to deny that we actually evolved to eat meat. We are definitely more herbivores than carnivores, but we are not 100% herbivores any more.
From my personal experience of eating raw food I can tell, that I am feeling much better when I am eating fruits and vegs, but I feel weak. When I eat mainly meat I feel exhausted and tired most of the time. But a little meat and mostly fruits and vegs, and I feel perfect. It is a perfect fit.

Primates are naturally omnivores, with a heavy slant towards raw fruits and vegetables; I'm unaware of a primate species that absolutely never eats a small amount of meat/insects/etc.

Humans can choose to eat raw food or vegan diets; with minimal precautions (such as making sure there's an adequate vitamin B12 intake - bear in mind, it takes some attention to make *any* way of eating be healthy, omnivorism included), these are healthy options, regardless of the fact that they're not identical to what our ancestors ate.

I'd say vegan or raw vegan diets are healthier than the 'standard' ways of eating in most countries, and closer to ancestral diets - raw 'paleolithic'-style omnivores probably are marginally closer yet.

Personally, I'm vegan; it's a workable way of eating for humans. It's not like I could eat like all of my ancestors throughout history did anyhow - that's had significant regional variation, and changed as farming was introduced, etc.

ps: if you're feeling weak on fruit/veg, perhaps you're not getting enough total calories, fats, or proteins? Take a look at the nutritional value of what you're eating (raw fruits and vegetables are not calorie dense, with only a few exceptions), and try adding nuts, seeds, avocados, olives, perhaps coconut, and if you eat cooked food, beans and grains.

[kat]

Originally Posted by funchy

The sources I have show people very sick or die each year from uncooked meat or things contaminated by touching raw meat or untreated animal fluids/feces.

Here are just a few links on the dangers of eating uncooked animal products:

(.. links elided)

Sure, there are many gross ways to get sick, sometimes fatally, from raw animal products. Nonetheless, there are long-standing human traditions of consuming them in various forms - such as sashimi in Japan, Carpaccio in Italy, or the traditional diet of some aboriginal groups in various regions of the world. A surprising number of contemporary American recipes call for things like raw eggs.

Are there health dangers, which could be avoided by cooking or avoiding animal products? Certainly. Are raw animal products invariably or usually fatal? No.

Originally Posted by funchy

My personal favorite deadly meat disease is BSE which is neither bacteria nor virus. Normal cooking does not destroy the prions, and there is no cure. American beef farmers wanted to test for it in their own cattle before shipping them, and our own Federal government BANNED them from spending their own money to test their own cows??????

The last link you gave shows the reason perfectly well:

"There is a two- to eight-year incubation period for mad cow disease. Because most cattle slaughtered in the United States are less than 24 months old, the most common mad cow disease test is unlikely to catch the disease, the appeals court noted. If the government does not control the tests, the USDA is worried about beef exporters unilaterally giving consumers false assurance."

I think the FDA actually did a good job, in this case: one of the key things that they actually help by doing is preventing people from claiming irrelevant test results prove a product is somehow safe when the test proves nothing of the sort!

[Datum]

2 funchy,

We eat sushi all the time, right?

As far as your sources, I did not read all of them, but one about professor who says that dogs cannot eat raw meat is a total lie. First of all, that guy works for Purina, so he cannot be considered a source, since they need to make money by scaring people. And secondly, how the hell dogs survived in the wild by eating mainly sick or weak (it is tough to bring down a healthy/strong herbivore) for millions of years?

[IceWolf]

Originally Posted by funchy

The sources I have show people very sick or die each year from uncooked meat or things contaminated by touching raw meat or untreated animal fluids/feces.

Here are just a few links on the dangers of eating uncooked animal products:

Yes, it is certainly possible to get sick and die from eating infected raw animal products. But the key-word in my statement was "rarely". It's news when it happens. Most of the raw-meat-eaters also avoid wild carnivores, factory farmed meat, ground meat, and intestines.


Looking at the sources you linked:


Trichinellosis Fact Sheet | Division of Parasitic Diseases | CDC

This page states that trichinellosis is usually caught from wild carnivores, and pigs who were fed raw meat garbage. The latter is now illegal. For the former, this page RawPaleoDiet -- Some Notes on Parasites in Mammalian Meat and Fish does suggest avoiding wild carnivores, and reports that one person caught trichinellosis from eating a wild mongoose.


FDA highlights dangers of uncooked ingredients

In this article, the infection was a vegetable-liking strain of salmonella carried in the flour.

See this one too: Salmonella risk in ready-to-eat salads | UK news | The Guardian
Suspected to be from animal feces in the fields. But you can't 100% avoid salmonella even as a vegan.

Raw almonds banned in one location because of salmonella: Almonds to be pasteurized to prevent Salmonella : Salmonella Blog
Some of the raw vegans on this forum were annoyed about that.


The Dangers of Mystery Meat

This page has an interesting explanation of why factory farmed beef is more dangerous to eat raw than grassfed:

Factory cattle are fed so much corn -- a departure from their evolutionary preference for grass -- that their guts become much more acidic. The variety of E. coli that is bred in that Darwinian environment is much more tolerant of both the cow's stomach acid and the human's, and thus much more likely to attack a person who would easily fend off the weaker cousins of the acid-hardened variety.

Also, the outbreak described on this page was from commercial ground beef, which is much more dangerous to eat raw. This page explains: Cook Your Hamburgers Rare! Grind Your Own Meat and Forget About Dry, Tasteless Burgers. Safe and Easy!


I'll read the others some other time.


The BSE epidemic was thought to be caused by feeding animal remains to cattle. Unlike humans, there is no doubt that cattle are supposed to be vegan, and they're certainly not supposed to be cannibals. Poultry litter banned as cattle feed - Poultry Articles from The Poultry Site

[Dan.Linehan]

The original post seems to be making incorrect assumptions.


Carnivores have longer digestive tracks, not herbivores. Carnivores also have more teeth, not herbivores. The idea of needing more teeth to chew leaves is ridiculous. Meat is much harder to chew and digest than plant based food.


For more info: The Comparative Anatomy of Eating

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by IceWolf

See this one too: Salmonella risk in ready-to-eat salads | UK news | The Guardian
Suspected to be from animal feces in the fields. But you can't 100% avoid salmonella even as a vegan.

Yep, mainly because meat eaters screw up the food supply.

[Datum]

The common chimpanzee has 32 teeth. We also have 32, but remove unnecessary 4, and we end up with 28.
Wolves have more teeth because they have to deal with raw meat. Humans for the past 10,000-15,000 years (i guess!!!) do not eat raw meat. Cooked meat easier to chew. Anyways, as far as plants, we need to spend extra time to break plant cellulose otherwise our stomach has hard time to digest it.

The idea of needing more teeth to chew leaves is ridiculous.

[kat]

Timeline of Dietary Shifts in the Human Line of Evolution may be of interest: it has a plausible-looking summary of the last few million years of human evolution, with significant dietary notes.

Correcting the Vegetarian Myths about Ape Diets has somewhat more information on the contemporary diets of non-human primates.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Datum

Anyways, as far as plants, we need to spend extra time to break plant cellulose otherwise our stomach has hard time to digest it.

It's fairly well known that meat is more difficult to digest than plant matter. Where did you read otherwise?

[Datum]

2 Dan.Linehan,

OK, so you can get my point, grab a piece steak, and then get a handful of fresh spinach, see which one will take you longer to properly chew.

[StephanieShine]

Humans can't digest cellulose/plant fiber at all.

[bonzaiaphrodite]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

It's fairly well known that meat is more difficult to digest than plant matter. Where did you read otherwise?

I don't mean to be rude, but you are definitely incorrect. Across the board, herbivores have much longer (near double) the length of intestines as compared to omni/carnivores. It's because meat rots quickly in the gut, and thus needs to be passed quickly. Plant matter is more difficult to break down as far as cellulose, and there is less risk of it doing damage if it sticks around in the colon.

Not trying to argue, just want to make sure the biology is correct. =)

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by bonzaiaphrodite

I don't mean to be rude, but you are definitely incorrect. Across the board, herbivores have much longer (near double) the length of intestines as compared to omni/carnivores. It's because meat rots quickly in the gut, and thus needs to be passed quickly. Plant matter is more difficult to break down as far as cellulose, and there is less risk of it doing damage if it sticks around in the colon.

Not trying to argue, just want to make sure the biology is correct. =)

My bad, you are correct about intestinal length, herbivores do have longer tracks, not shorter.

Humans are still herbivores from an anatomic standpoint though..





@ Datum, so you feel better when you include 1% to 2% meat in a raw diet? Is it raw meat?

[Datum]

@ Datum, so you feel better when you include 1% to 2% meat in a raw diet? Is it raw meat?

I only include fish, and 50% of the time I get sushi. The other 50 is steamed fish.

I would definitely try to go 100% raw fish, but money is a little tight now.