Pistols?

[Andrew Michaels]

Anyone have experience with the bodyweight exercise, "pistols"? Basically it's a one legged squat with the other leg and hands straight out in front of you. I just started them this week, first coming onto a chair, with the eventual goal of coming all the way down the the calf and back up.

The problem is that my knees seem to be very sore. Oddly enough, especially the knee that's straight out in the air. Is a bit of knee pain normal at first with pistols?

Thanks.

[SmellyOrc]

Same pains here. Though I can already go down all the way (with some weight in front of me for balance, nice trick if ya can't seem to get all the way down!). I don't think you need to keep your other leg straight in front of ya though, as long as you don't touch the floor with it, you should be ok.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Michaels

Anyone have experience with the bodyweight exercise, "pistols"? Basically it's a one legged squat with the other leg and hands straight out in front of you. I just started them this week, first coming onto a chair, with the eventual goal of coming all the way down the the calf and back up.

The problem is that my knees seem to be very sore. Oddly enough, especially the knee that's straight out in the air. Is a bit of knee pain normal at first with pistols?

I don't have any prior experience with pistols (keep that in mind when you read what I have to say/take any of my advice), but from the few I did moments ago to try/test them out, drawing from my fairly decent experience with physical activity/training, I wouldn't recommend them. (I’m sure many people will probably say they’re fine, but I’d also say that many people train like bums and have little to no idea about how to train properly.)

They seem to put far too much strain on your knee (the one you have your weight on), and the fact you have to focus on maintaining your balance is both detrimental to your training and your knee joint. Whether you are trying to build muscle size/strength or increase muscle conditioning, you should be focusing on your form and feeling your muscle work, not trying to maintain your balance (which you will do when standing on one leg, regardless of how good your balance is). And when you are putting stress on any joint/muscle in your body, you want the movement to be reasonably smooth and controlled (something that won’t come easy when you are trying to maintain your balance), unless you wish to injure yourself.

If you are experiencing pain in your knee, generally that's your body trying to tell you something, and as far as I’m concerned, it is by no means "normal". That’s not to say it's bad (although it could be), but it's definitely something to pay attention to, learn from, or at the very least, keep an eye on. From my experience, you can experience some stiffness/pain in your knees if you jump right into a weighted exercises (which is what you are doing with pistols... your body weight is focused on one leg), although some decent warm up reps (repetitions) with very low (ie. your body weight) to moderate weight will usually help with that (unless you have an existing injury/issue that needs to be addressed, in which case you should do that before you continue training).

Why does a warm up help? Well, I’m not exactly sure (I’m more of an experiential person rather then factual when it comes to training), but I’d say it has something to do with increasing blood flow to the area, stimulating the muscle fibres/tendons and extending them past their normal range of motion, and, according to a study mentioned by Peter Egoscue in his book, The Egoscue Method of Health Through Motion, the swelling of the hyaline cartilage at your knee joints which will swell by 12 or 13 percent during warm-up exercises, making the joints more capable of withstanding stress.

Anyway, my advice to you would be to drop the pistols and take up squats. Squats offer you the opportunity to perform a smooth, controlled motion in a manner that will (so long as you train intelligently, your form is good, and you have no existing bodily issues) not injure you or put excessive amounts of strain on your knee joints in an unbalance manner. Depending on your leg strength and body weight, you may/may not benefit from doing unweighted squats. It really depends on what your training goals are (size, strength, stamina, conditioning/definition, etc.). Either way, just get in there and experiment and find out what works for you (do so intelligently, though -- if you have no idea of what you are doing, either train with someone who does or educate yourself before hand and do your research... you do not want your ignorance to cause injury).

If you continue to do the pistols, pay close attention to what your body is telling you. If you continue to experience pain and discomfort in your knee joints, I would stop doing the exercise immediately, try to locate the source of the pain/discomfort, and find a resolution, even if that "resolution" ends up being the discontinuation of the exercise. There are plenty of exercises out there, and I'm sure you'll be able to find at least one that will allow you to reach your goals (depending on what your goals are) if you are unable to do pistols.

As with any training, make sure you are stretching adequately before you begin and ensure you are reasonably hydrated before, during, and after training. If you find that after doing crazy amounts of unweighted reps/sets you are not getting any gains, you may want to consider joining a gym, buying a barbell and some weight discs to use at home, or getting creative (in an intelligent manner) and making use of something you can use to add weight to your reps (if you have little knowledge/experience when it comes to training or if your body is not in decent shape, I'd opt for going with the first two options and leaving option 3 -- getting creative -- well alone).

If you do decide to stop the pistols, for more information, check out the following links (these links are by no means a complete information source, but it should get you off to a good start):

Squats (how to do the exercise, info on proper form, and other squat-related info)

• Bodybuilding.com - Exercise Guides Database.
• Bodybuilding.com - Exercise Guides Database.
• Squat Exercise - Leg Muscle Workout | Squats
• Best Leg Exercise - Squat Exercise, Hamstring Exercise, Leg Press
• Bodybuilding.com - David Whitley - 20-Rep Squats: The Brutal Path To Massive Gains!

Lunges - An alternatives to squats

• Bodybuilding.com - Exercise Guides Database.
• Bodybuilding.com - Exercise Guides Database.
• Bodybuilding.com - Nick Nilsson - Training Tips: Better Balance On Lunges!

Other useful training information

• Leg Muscle Anatomy - Quadriceps Muscle, Hamstring Muscle, and Gluteus Maximus
• Leg Muscle Pain & Cramp - Quadriceps Injury & Pulled Hamstring Injury

[SmellyOrc]

Well, actually I do NOT believe squats are a replacement for pistols. From what I've read, the prior builds a little strength, but more strength endurance, and the latter builds real strength. The one does not replace the other, though in this case, the latter can build knee strength to overcome pain in the knee. Before I did my squats and pistols, I couldn't walk normally after a good run. Now, I don't experience any pain anymore. The pain in the raised leg comes from incompletely stretching the leg. This can come from not relaxing the leg enough (see Pavel Tatsouline's book Relax Into Stretching for tips). So, if your knees keep hurting (weak bones or something), first do some squats for a few weeks, to build up a bit of strength, and then go back to pistols.
Anyway, if its just plain soreness (my legs get sore too after ~2 reps of pistols), its OK.
And I agree with what Bruce said, do a small warm up before you do your pistols. I generally do a few squats before I go over to the pistols. Just to get those legs warmed up.

*Was inspired to make a longer reply now to reply to Bruce's*

[stephencp]

I have done both (weighted and unweighted squats and pistols) and find value in both. I would trust Welcome to CrossFit: Forging Elite Fitness for information on funtional, useful strength and fitnesss over any "bodybuilding" site. The biggest factor protecting the knees is keeping the lower leg as perpendicular as possible to the floor.

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by SmellyOrc

Well, actually I do NOT believe squats are a replacement for pistols. From what I've read, the prior builds a little strength, but more strength endurance, and the latter builds real strength. The one does not replace the other, though in this case, the latter can build knee strength to overcome pain in the knee. Before I did my squats and pistols, I couldn't walk normally after a good run. Now, I don't experience any pain anymore.

I agree -- no exercise is a replacement for any other; they all have their own strength and weaknesses, and certain exercises are more effective for certain people. There is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to training. That said, pistols are basically a one-legged squatting movement. I assume the reason people do them one-legged is because they are looking for an alternative to weighted training, and putting your body weight on one leg will simulate the results you achieve (to an extent) when doing weighted squats (and other similar exercises). Of course, there are definitely slightly different mechanics involved when comparing pistols to squats because of the switch from a stable, two legged footing position to a less stable, one leg footing, but I think it's largely a waste of time comparing two exercises. What you really want to focus on are the advantages and disadvantages of each exercise in relation to what is effective/suitable for your body.

As I described above, the particular weakness that I found with pistols is the stress they put on the knee. A bit of stress on your knee joint is ok when you're doing a highly controlled motion that is stable and consistent throughout the movement, but that's where pistols fail due to the fact you have to do them one legged. You could argue that I have weak knees, but unless you can find a human with a vastly different skeletal structure to mine, I think everyone will experience similar results (ie. stress on the knee joint). No matter how good your balance is, you're still going to be using your leg muscles to compensate for your lack of stable footing, and this is not something you want to deal with when you are attempting to train with proper form whilst trying to avoid injury. Not to say it can’t be dealt with, but it’s not something you want to deal with. Put a decent amount of weight on yourself while doing some pistols, and you’ll see what I mean. It is quite obvious that pistols are not intended to be performed with much more then your body weight since it will only amplify the balance issues (and other weaknesses associated with the exercise) and heighten the chance of injury.

The reason I recommended Andrew Michaels replace the pistols with squats (and/or lunges) was because of the knee pain he described. Not just a bit of pain, though -- Andrew said his knees seem to be “very sore”, “especially the knee that's straight out in the air”, which, in my opinion, is not normal at all. Pain is an indicator and should not ignored. You can choose to take notice of the pain and push on in spite of it, but there's a big difference feeling pain and choosing to ignore it, and feeling pain, acknowledging it, and consciously (and intelligently) choosing to push through it in spite of the pain, fully aware of or accepting of any consequences that might result if you ignore the pain and continue to push on in spite of it.

Originally Posted by SmellyOrc

From what I've read, the prior [squats] builds a little strength, but more strength endurance, and the latter [pistols] builds real strength. [...] Anyway, if its just plain soreness (my legs get sore too after ~2 reps of pistols), its OK.

It largely depends on whether or not you are increasing the resistance with the squats you are doing (ie. adding weight). Unweighted squats done with your body weight alone will end up building muscular endurance since you have to do many repetitions to gain any (decent) benefit from the exercise, and in doing so, your body will have to increase the efficiency of the muscle(s) involved and your cardiovascular system. Unweighted squats may be difficult at first (depending on your current muscular conditioning/level of fitness), but if you keep doing them, eventually you will hit a plateau where you are building very little strength, and instead, more endurance.

Weighted squats, however, will be vastly superior to unweighted pistols if strength is your goal (I'd argue that they'd be superior in general, but I digress). I’m not quite sure of all the influencing factors in your case (current muscle conditioning, age, body type/weight, physical ailments, genetic weaknesses, how long you’ve been training, etc.), SmellyOrc, but if your legs get sore after doing 2 reps of pistols, your legs aren’t terribly strong (I’m not trying to offend or take a shot at you by making such a statement, I’m just stating a fact based on my knowledge of the average leg strength of most individuals. As I said, there could easily be influencing factors that I’m not aware of, so take that statement with a grain of salt ).

I’m not saying this out of vanity, but after further experimentation with (unweighted) pistols, I found I could generally pump out many repetitions without any soreness (my legs would get sore eventually though, but someone with decent leg strength would have to do many, many pistols before they experienced muscle soreness, depending on their body weight). This I would attribute to my leg strength (not my endurance, which isn’t very good at the moment), which is a result of doing weighted squats (among other exercises, but squats are the primary source of the strength I describe). Pistols may give the illusion of building greater strength as an exercise when comparing them to unweighted squats, but that is only because of the fact you are focusing more of your body weight on one leg rather then dividing it evenly between two legs, not because the exercise is inadequate at building “real strength”.

Training is quite a logical activity, although many people don’t see it that way (including myself, initially) since they lack an understanding of basic body mechanics such as the range of movement the skeletal structure provides us with, what/how/why certain exercises and ways of performing that exercise target specific muscles, etc. The same applies here. If you wish to build strength, you must give your body a reason to by doing exercises that signal your body that your current level of strength is inadequate for the activities you are performing by overtaxing your current muscular strength. So long as you are eating right/enough and getting enough rest, this will cause your muscles to hypertrophy (grow) to accommodate the resistance they are encountering during the particular activity where they were previously inadequate. More muscle will be able to generate and output more strength. Similarly, if you wish to build endurance, you must give your body a reason to improve the efficiency of the cardiovascular system and supply of blood/oxygen to the muscle, as well as the muscles ability to perform a certain activity for a longer period of time by pushing your body past it’s current limits.

If Andrew does not wish to do squats, I would recommend he do lunges instead (as I mentioned in my original post in this thread). Lunges will provide the stability and controlled motion that is associated with squats while still allowing the practitioner to target the majority of his/her body weight onto on leg (which is the main advantage of pistols).

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by SmellyOrc

The pain in the raised leg comes from incompletely stretching the leg. This can come from not relaxing the leg enough (see Pavel Tatsouline's book Relax Into Stretching for tips).

Andrew said that it was his knee from his raised leg that was “especially” sore. You may experience some soreness/tightness in your leg (specifically, your tendons) when holding it outstretched in front of you if you lack flexibility, but I’ve never experienced or heard of anyone experiencing knee pain due to lack of flexibility (usually knee pain stems from another issue, or flexibility or lack thereof is a symptom of a deeper problem).

I can see how you may experience knee pain due to inflexibility when you have weight on it and are doing a specific motion (such as squats/pistols), but if it is sore when just holding it stationary/outstretched in front of you with no resistance on it whatsoever, I’d say the problem is not flexibility (or lack there of). Although Andrew hasn’t said exactly when he experiences this pain in his raised leg (ie. before or after using that leg for a set of pistols), so it’s difficult to accurately diagnose and give any advice.

Either way, I don’t consider myself to be an expert in this field by any means, so I dug up some information about knee pain that seems to be reasonably sound (Andrew Michaels, take note):

Anterior Knee Pain
By Don Labourr / PT, ATC

[Anterior knee] pain is usually associated with dysfunction of the patellofemoral joint or the joint formed by your kneecap and the end of your femur. The kneecap is designed to follow a specific course as it slides up and down the groove of the femur. It is supported throughout this movement by the bony groove itself, plus specific muscles, ligaments and tendons, which usually do a remarkable job of working together to guide the kneecap in its proper course.

Occasionally, due to injury, muscle weakness, lack of flexibility, excessive activity levels or faulty biomechanics, the kneecap can be forced into an abnormal course as it moves up and down the groove. Usually it is forced laterally or to the outside of the groove. This causes excessive pressure between the outside undersurface of the patella and the lateral edge of the femoral groove resulting in pain. It may also cause an overstressing or pinching of the soft tissue structures trying to hold the kneecap in its proper course. As this abnormal tracking continues, symptoms become more constant and debilitating due to increased damage to the supporting tissues.

You can read the rest of the article here: Washington Athletic Club: Knee Knowledge

Anyway, while I’m enjoying this discussion, my primary motivation for participation was to help out Andrew (and anyone else with similar problems).

Andrew -- if you could give us some feedback based on what has been said so far (how relevant it is, whether or not anything has/has not worked for you, a bit more information on exactly what you've been doing/when you experience pain, etc.), that’s be great.

[SmellyOrc]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

As I described above, the particular weakness that I found with pistols is the stress they put on the knee. A bit of stress on your knee joint is ok when you're doing a highly controlled motion that is stable and consistent throughout the movement, but that's where pistols fail due to the fact you have to do them one legged. You could argue that I have weak knees, but unless you can find a human with a vastly different skeletal structure to mine, I think everyone will experience similar results (ie. stress on the knee joint). No matter how good your balance is, you're still going to be using your leg muscles to compensate for your lack of stable footing, and this is not something you want to deal with when you are attempting to train with proper form whilst trying to avoid injury. Not to say it can’t be dealt with, but it’s not something you want to deal with. Put a decent amount of weight on yourself while doing some pistols, and you’ll see what I mean. It is quite obvious that pistols are not intended to be performed with much more then your body weight since it will only amplify the balance issues (and other weaknesses associated with the exercise) and heighten the chance of injury.

Well, that really depends on where you put your weight. I find it easier to do some pistols with some weight in front of me. This weight will help you keep your balance, therefore releasing some stress from your knee joints. Whereas if you keep the weight somewhere else, i.e. on your shoulders, then yeah, balance is gonna be a major issue. I noticed during my pistols that when my leg is to weak (my left leg), I do indeed feel stress on my knee joints, but when I do it on my strong leg, I do not.

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

The reason I recommended Andrew Michaels replace the pistols with squats was because of the knee pain he described. Not just a bit of pain, though -- Andrew said his knees seem to be “very sore”, “especially the knee that's straight out in the air”, which, in my opinion, is not normal at all. Pain is an indicator and should not ignored. You can choose to take notice of the pain and push on in spite of it, but there's a big difference feeling pain and choosing to ignore it, and feeling pain, acknowledging it, and consciously (and intelligently) choosing to push through it in spite of the pain, fully aware of or accepting of any consequences that might result if you ignore the pain and continue to push on in spite of it.

Well, like you said, flexibility is an issue here. One who is not flexible enough and tries to put his leg straight out in front of him, he will experience pain. Now, I find it strange that the knee is hurting here. I've never had that, no matter in what position I was in, not flexible enough to stay in it comfortably. Its mostly the muscles around the knee/upper leg that hurt then, so I don't know what's wrong here...

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

Weighted squats, however, will be vastly superior to unweighted pistols if strength is your goal (I'd argue that they'd be superior in general, but I digress). I’m not quite sure of all the influencing factors in your case (current muscle conditioning, age, body type/weight, physical ailments, genetic weaknesses, how long you’ve been training, etc.), SmellyOrc, but if your legs get sore after doing 2 reps of pistols, your legs aren’t terribly strong (I’m not trying to offend or take a shot at you by making such a statement, I’m just stating a fact based on my knowledge of the average leg strength of most individuals. As I said, there could easily be influencing factors that I’m not aware of, so take that statement with a grain of salt ).

I agree with the weighted squats being more effective than unweighted pistols, but that's just common knowledge. And well, maybe I shouldn't have used to word sore. Its just that after just a few reps that I will still experience some pain/soreness for quite a few minutes thereafter. I'm quite tall for my age (~6'4" and 16 year), and that may be the reason why. According to my doctor, the muscles around my knee haven't had time to fully grow yet, my bones were growing larger than my muscles. And I felt that...

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

Training is quite a logical activity, although many people don’t see it that way (including myself, initially) since they lack an understanding of basic body mechanics such as the range of movement the skeletal structure provides us with, what/how/why certain exercises and ways of performing that exercise target specific muscles, etc. The same applies here. If you wish to build strength, you must give your body a reason to by doing exercises that signal your body that your current level of strength is inadequate for the activities you are performing by overtaxing your current muscular strength. So long as you are eating right/enough and getting enough rest, this will cause your muscles to hypertrophy (grow) to accommodate the resistance they are encountering during the particular activity where they were previously inadequate. More muscle will be able to generate and output more strength. Similarly, if you wish to build endurance, you must give your body a reason to improve the efficiency of the cardiovascular system and supply of blood/oxygen to the muscle, as well as the muscles ability to perform a certain activity for a longer period of time by pushing your body past it’s current limits.

No arguments here

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by stephencp

I have done both (weighted and unweighted squats and pistols) and find value in both. I would trust Welcome to CrossFit: Forging Elite Fitness for information on funtional, useful strength and fitnesss over any "bodybuilding" site.

I would consider any strength to be “functional” and “useful”, regardless of how it is developed. Strength itself is always functional; it’s just that some people mistakenly associate large, bulky muscles in particularly high strength individuals (ie. bodybuilders, etc.) with a lack of functionality, which, in my opinion, is completely unfounded and based on ignorance and/or lack of experience. Large, heavy muscles may impact your speed if your muscle conditioning (particularly, conditioning related to speed) is poor, but it will not influence your ability to function. Quite the contrary; it will improve your ability to function since you will be stronger and more able to undertake a wider range of activities that would be unavailable to a weaker, less conditioned individual.

For an example, consider the case of Franco Columbo, professional bodybuilder, 2-time Mr. Olympia, and considered by many to be the strongest man in the world (at least, back in his day). Prior to beginning bodybuilding, Franco was an Amateur Boxing Champion, and from what I have heard, he continued to do boxing training throughout the time he was bodybuilding. In the movie, Pumping Iron, Franco is shown punching a heavy bag and skipping. I managed to dig up a movie with a clip of those scenes at the beginning, which you can view here. Even if the clip is short, you can clearly see that Franco is quite functional, despite his far above average muscularity.

As another example, consider Ronnie Coleman, professional bodybuilder, and 8-times Mr. Olympia. Despite his insane, juggernaut-like muscularity, Coleman can actually do the splits (fully, not just partially). Click here to see an image of Ronnie doing the splits (it’s also on a video somewhere on YouTube, but I couldn’t find it). I’ve also read that Coleman has done back flips on stage when competing in bodybuilding competitions. I haven’t seen any evidence of Coleman doing this personally, although I was able to find a video of Kevin Levrone, another professional bodybuilder who competed in a number of Mr. Olympia events, doing numerous flips (Levrone would have weighed approx. 275lb there, or approx. 120kg -- pretty damn impressive). You can view the video here.

Edit: I found another video of Kevin Levrone running a track time of 7.8 (seconds) in a 60m race vs Dwain Chambers, who was supposedly the second fastest sprinter in the world (ranked #2 behind Tim Montgomery in 2002) at the time. You can view the video here. Some may consider 7.8 to be pretty average track time, but considering Levrone would have weighed easily over 250lb there (which is approx. 110 kg), the fact that he didn't actually do any serious sprinting training (I'm pretty sure he was still competing at bodybuilding at that time), and he was racing someone who weighed much, much less then him, I’d consider that to be pretty decent. Hopefully these examples I’ve included have shown that “functionality” is not lost even when you are very muscular.

While I think it is important to consider information from all sources, personally I would consider weight training-related information coming from professional bodybuilders (regardless of whether or not they take steroids) to be more reliable then other sources because:

1. Since pro bodybuilders spend the majority of their time doing weight training and have a much higher chance of injuring themselves due to the amounts they train, they practically have to train properly otherwise they are likely to injure themselves badly with the amounts of weight they lift. It's likley they have gone through most of what you need to/currently are going through, and they will generally provide pretty good advice in general, regardless how different their body/body type is to yours.
   
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2. You can usually identify how effective/accurate a bodybuilders advice will be (assuming they are being truthful) when you analyse their musculature (if you know what to look for). If a bodybuilder is worth listening to, they will generally have a good physique and overall conditioning, regardless of their size, body type, or training goals.

I’m not a big fan of comparing others or myself to any one person (or type of person, such as a bodybuilder), but when it comes to resistance training, the exercises and training associated with bodybuilding are generally fairly reliable (so long as they are performed correctly, intelligently, and with an awareness of what your body is/is not capable of).

Originally Posted by stephencp

The biggest factor protecting the knees is keeping the lower leg as perpendicular as possible to the floor.

Personally, I’d say the biggest factor in protecting the knees is understanding the mechanics of the body (especially the knee and the impact knee usage has on the surrounding body structure) and ensuring that when exercising/training, you are using a range of motion (which refers to using and maintaining the right angles) that does not put unnecessary, unexpected, or unsustainable strain on your joints and utilises the muscles in such a way that will not cause certain muscles to compensate for the lack of strength of others and, in turn, warp the skeletal structure of the body. (We’re pretty much saying the same thing here, I’m just applying it in a more general sense.)