The Vegetarian Myth!

[Ryan Bailey]

So after reading a few posts on the site I realized instead of answering some of the questions, maybe I should just write my own post! So here is the deal, let me start by saying I completely support everyone having the right to choose what they eat and why they eat it - for I feel like I deserve the same respect from others. The topic of being or becoming a vegetarian or vegan of any kind has become, in my eyes, quite a controversial subject. My belief is most vegetarians I have worked with in the past have been no healthier than the people eating all the poisonous meat and processed dairy products. I realize there is a small percentage of vegans or vegetarians that will do the diet properly with enough diligence to really provide the body with what it truly needs, desires and is designed to use as fuel. Most vegetarians in my eyes will trade eating poisonous, toxic, ill-treated animals for processed grain, sugar, soy and many other processed foods our bodies are not designed to eat and or digest.

On a side note I am not naive to the fact that the theory of a vegetarian diet holds weight in the argument in terms of health and prevention of disease. I am not saying that being a vegetarian is not healthy if you do it appropriately. If you eat 4-8 servings of mostly raw, organic or biodynamic vegetables a day and eat a large variety of seeds, nuts, beans and legumes you will still be low on the amount of protein the human body needs to repair everyday and perform at high levels. Most people I know, especially young men and women, are not educated enough to follow a proper vegetarian diet. Yes they may not agree with the way we treat and raise many of the animals in the U.S and or other countries, but this also does not mean that it is all or nothing. There are plenty of farmers who raise animals humanely and provide the animal with a diet that they are designed to eat by Mother Nature.

I can sum this up in a few points that I am sure can be battled till the day ends, but this is what my journey has led me to at this point and what resonates with me and follows the laws of Nature, which to me is more powerful than any law created by a human to decide never to eat meat for what ever reason.

First off, we need to look at the evolution of man and food and what has got us to this point. Yes, we could argue first that the point we are at now is not anything to write home about, but none the less we have made it to this point on a few staples. One of them is vegetables, I got you… you thought I was going to say meat! No, first off, vegetables are definitely a staple of our diets and how we have evolved. Shortly there after does come the meat – yes, meat of all shapes and sizes. The difference in the meat we ate even 100 years ago to what we eat now is the quality. The meat itself is always getting the bad wrap. We need to look closer at the details of the meat and what is being done to it and where it is coming from. When we look at the statistics of heart disease and cancer we never bother to look at the details of the study. We need to wake up. So many people are being brain washed into thinking the meat is what is killing us. Yes it is, but not all of it. The fast food meat we feed our kids is killing them and us. So is almost every piece of meat we get our hands on. But not the free-range, grass-fed beef from the local farmer that our bodies are designed to eat and thrive off of!

We need to put into perspective what is causing the major source of dis-ease in our country. If meat and animal products were the culprit we would be healthy by now. Why? Meat, dairy and butter consumption has gone down in the last 50 years. While sugar, flour, corn and corn derivatives have increased by hundreds of percent. So here is the deal if we look at a simple fact of what we had to eat 10,000 years ago. It would not be a vegan diet with soy milk and grains. There were no soy, wheat, corn or any grain crops. We did not even domesticate animals at this point. So therefore we were not even drinking milk or any other processed dairy crap foods you can think of. We had wild meats that we hunted as nomadic people. We had wild berries and nuts along with some veggies of the wild sort. We did not farm and we did not have animals that we raised ourselves. This, my friends, is the root of all problems when it comes to food.

Please also realize if you are a vegan and you are not eating biodynamically raised foods you are no different than those eating tortured animals filled with growth hormones. It is too often overlooked that plants and soil are filled with billions of microorganisms that get killed when they are farmed improperly and sprayed with pesticides and herbicides daily. Just because the organisms you are killing don’t have big brown eyes and long eye lashes doesn’t mean you are not doing the same thing. Out of sight out of mind - if we do not see it, it must not exist. This is our philosophy. Also I have yet to see the groups of hundreds of thousands of human beings on a vegetarian diet that are free of disease and perfectly healthy and living to 120 years old. I have yet to see these studies whether new or old. I would welcome them with an open heart and mind. I also have not come across any religion or culture no matter how strict that has not had some form of meat or animal product in it.

There are many great things about a vegetarian diet that accompanied with local, fresh, well-raised meats and animal products could be a perfect diet that just makes sense and follows all laws of Mother Nature. I think you can get an idea of where I am coming from at this point. So to conclude, I do not agree 100% with a Vegan or Vegetarian diet. Whether it be for personal or religious reasons I do believe we need meat from a spiritual sense to gather Chi and energy from other living things - done properly with respect and honor that this animal no matter how big or small is in the place to give up their lives to help you sustain yours. If you honor your food and are grateful for the opportunity to feed your mind, body and soul, I see it as opportunity to survive and thrive. When a lion kills an elephant to eat he is honoring his duty as a creature that does nothing more than follow his innate natural instincts.

It seems more often the people doing any diet to extreme are the ones having some difficulty in their lives with some type of dis-ease. When we follow the rules of Mother Nature and strive for balance in every aspect in our lives we become one with the universe and at this point will be free from all dis-ease. If anyone would like more information on this subject feel free to contact me or visit my site. Other resources that will be helpful on this subject would be www.pricepottenger.org, Weston A. Price Foundation.

[jokerman]

Amen brother! Meat rules!!!

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by jokerman

Amen brother! Meat rules!!!

surely you are joking

[Wildside]

I pretty much agree with everything you said Ryan, as the diet you describe as optimal works for me, but I don't agree with calling vegetarianism a myth...there are millions of people that seem to be doing just fine (and many thriving) on a veggie diet.

[jokerman]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

surely you are joking

I can't tell what that emoticon implies (admittedly limited emotional IQ), but I actually do love meat, and agree with the OP. About a year ago I gave (mostly) raw veganism the old college try and flunked. Meat is a beautiful thing--not only is it delicious, but you absorb the animal's soul by consuming its flesh and thereby grow potent.

[lifetimelearner]

It was meant to be sarcastic



I could throw studies at you left and right

but I feel to each their own

[pyrogen]

I'm an ex-vegetarian. I even did it "right" and still wasn't functioning very well. I was weak all the time, no energy, bad brain fog. I didn't start functioning again until I started eating meat again.

I don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all diet for everyone. Food tolerances/intolerances vary from population to population, so do many nutritional requirements. For example, lactose intolerance is almost universal in populations of people whose ancestors didn't practice cattle husbandry. Some people are more adapted to be able to tolerate certain diets than are other people.

Many Tibetans who went into exile in India, tried to be vegetarian like a majority of Indians. There is little to eat in Tibet that isn't meat, and so the Tibetans are adapted as meat eaters. The Tibetans who attempted vegetarianism became very, very ill. This is in the Dalai Lama's autobiography.

It really seems like people seem to have following a spiritual path collapsed with dietary asceticism, and then they tend to parade their diet as evidence of how evolved they are. And they spend a lot of time trying to find the perfect diet.

A website I really like is beyondveg.com, the owner confronts these issues.

[Calculusaurus]

Another ex-veg here.

I agree with Ryan and pyrogen above.

A lot of people on these forums have the idea that dietary improvement is a simple progression of SAD to Vegetarian to Vegan to Raw -- a rather naive notion that shows misunderstanding of some of the basic elements of nutritional science.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

My belief is most vegetarians I have worked with in the past have been no healthier than the people eating all the poisonous meat and processed dairy products.

How did you come to this conclusion?

How do you define "healthy"? Can you prove these people would be healthier by replacing some of their veg-based calories with meat?

If you eat 4-8 servings of mostly raw, organic or biodynamic vegetables a day and eat a large variety of seeds, nuts, beans and legumes you will still be low on the amount of protein the human body needs to repair everyday and perform at high levels. Most people I know, especially young men and women, are not educated enough to follow a proper vegetarian diet.

In those two sentences you seem to have contradicted yourself: You seem confident that you know what a proper vegetarian diet is. Then you turn around and say it would be deficient in protein. If it's proper, why is it deficient?

Let's try to put things in more objective terms: WHY do you believe a vegetarian cannot get enough protein?

Protein is simple an organic molecule made of amino acids. Our body breaks down and re-assembles the amino acids as needed. It's not true that if we need to grow skin cells we must eat the skin on our chicken; we synthesize the proteins we need from amino acids from all sorts of sources. Some American seem to equate protein with pure nutrition, and that is simply not true. Complete nutrition is a balance of all necessary food items: fats, proteins, carbs, vitamins, minerals, adequate water.

If we needed animal protein to be healthy or grow muscle, it would be impossible to be a weightlifter or professional athlete on a low or no meat diet.

Consider what happens when one doesn't get enough protein. When you go without enough protein to make you sick, you'll look like a swollen-bellied African starvation case. There is NOT a single case of protein deficiency in modern America.

PCRM, an org made up of doctors, has a site specifically to educate people on the dangers of the meat-protein diets:
Atkins Diet Alert / Neal Barnard, M.D., president / a PCRM site

Yes they may not agree with the way we treat and raise many of the animals in the U.S and or other countries, but this also does not mean that it is all or nothing. There are plenty of farmers who raise animals humanely and provide the animal with a diet that they are designed to eat by Mother Nature.

That is a different topic, but I will address it as well. I am going to disagree with this idea.

Meat farmers start out with breeding toward extremes. For example, dairy cows (eg Holsteins) are bred for more and more milk production, exceeding any normal level a mother cow would produce for a calf. It's such a high level it leaches nutrients from the mother. There are reports of bones of slaughtered cows snapping and crumbling when older dairy cows are sent to slaughter; their bodies are so worn out from the demands humans put on them when we bred them this way and milked them year after year. This applies even to "organic" cows.

It's true grass-fed beef exists if you're willing to look for it, pay more, and forego almost all restaurant food. However, we're still starting with animals bred to bulk up as fast as possible without regard to the quality & health of the resulting animal.

For poultry, farmers have created chickens so distorted and sickly some have so much meat/weight on such tiny feet, they literally can not stand up under their own weight when they hit adulthood. They're bred for growth of meat over everything else.

Mother nature also didn't design commercial animal feed, either. Swine are fed human food trash and not allowed to forage for the roots and other natural plants they should be eating. Cattle are eating massive amounts of corn and soy. Poultry eat ground, processed grains; commercial poultry farms don't let the birds out into the grass to peck at insects and natural plant seeds.

I live in a farming area. I don't know if a single farm, not even the one "organic" specialty meat farm, which let the animals live and in a way similar to what mother nature intended. It's impossible.

Consumers won't stand to pay for what it really costs to humanely & properly produce animal products. We start out with taxpayer-subsidized livestock feed crops. Then we add more subsidies and price controls to keep dairy and meat artificially cheap. And the farmers themselves can't stay in business if their animals were always all free-range, drug-free, diet free of grains, and healthy. And the more we push people to eat lots of meat, the more large-scale production of meat is needed. Bulk meat means quantity not quality. It means stressed who are animals, animals who are shipped longer distances & sold in bulk, and the requirement we stick to grain-fed beef.

The very nature of your argument (Americans should all consume lots of meat) does not go with your arrangement that meat can be raised in a healthy, humane way. The more demand there is for meat, the more the market cuts corners to produce an affordable product. In other words, we can't have both and still feed 300 million people.

I can sum this up in a few points that I am sure can be battled till the day ends, but this is what my journey has led me to at this point and what resonates with me and follows the laws of Nature, which to me is more powerful than any law created by a human to decide never to eat meat for what ever reason.

The laws of nature gave us all the traits of an animal which eats little to no meat. Our teeth, digestive tract length, ability to eat raw meat (not!), lack of claws, lack of hunting instincts, lack of good nose to track prey, and pretty much everything else about us screams : NOT a predator.

But not the free-range, grass-fed beef from the local farmer that our bodies are designed to eat and thrive off of!

Can you cite some scientific studies that show grass-fed beef is a better diet than one rich in all other foods except meat?

My local farmers sell to the open beef market. In other words, they're using the same milled feeds, the same extremist breeds, and the same production timetables as the bigger farmers.

We need to put into perspective what is causing the major source of dis-ease in our country. If meat and animal products were the culprit we would be healthy by now. Why? Meat, dairy and butter consumption has gone down in the last 50 years.

I disagree. We eat as many animals products as ever, and consumption of protein per (typical American) person is 2-3x what is needed. Yes, maybe we're eating less butterfat or red meat, but it's being replaced with plenty of seafood products, poultry, low-fat dairy, and other meats. Our calories are going up. Our fiber is so bad some people have to take fiber pills. Most americans think eating catsup with their McDonald's french fries counts as a vegetable?!

Cardiovascular disease and cancer are top killers of Americans. Both are clearly linked to high meat (& lower veg) diets.

And if our population keeps growing, we're going to have a serious problem. Meat takes 7-10 times the amount of land as it takes to produce the same number of pounds of non-meat foods. Estimates to produce a single pound of beef is 2,500 gallons. The next big world shortage is going to be clean drinking water. Already there are American disputes over who can use water in rivers such as the Colorado. How can we afford to throw so much of this precious resource at producing what amounts to a luxury item?

About 70% of the food America grows is tossed in front of a pig, cow, or chicken to eat.... what a waste.

We could literally end all world famine: just stop throwing food to animals to eat and instead safely deliver it to 3rd world nations. Livestock feed is greatly subsidized by US taxpayers anyway, so why not let taxpayers decide where it goes? It saddens me to know American pigs gorge on cheap subsided food but kids in Africa and parts of Asia are dying from malnutrition.

While sugar, flour, corn and corn derivatives have increased by hundreds of percent. So here is the deal if we look at a simple fact of what we had to eat 10,000 years ago. It would not be a vegan diet with soy milk and grains. There were no soy, wheat, corn or any grain crops. We did not even domesticate animals at this point. So therefore we were not even drinking milk or any other processed dairy crap foods you can think of. We had wild meats that we hunted as nomadic people. We had wild berries and nuts along with some veggies of the wild sort. We did not farm and we did not have animals that we raised ourselves.

I am not sure what the conclusion I should be drawing is? Humans also died at an average age of 25, so how could this be the ideal way to live?

And the very beginnings of civilization wasn't the first guy who stabbed a rabbit with a spear. It was with agriculture, for without it we could not have permanent settlements. Without settlements we cannot have cities, which in turn give us civilization. So shouldn't we be thanking plants not animals for bringing us out of the caves?

[funchy]

Please also realize if you are a vegan and you are not eating biodynamically raised foods you are no different than those eating tortured animals filled with growth hormones.

That is a big claim to make. Can you explain or cite sources?

Can you define "biodynamically"? I am not sure what you mean exactly. Thanks.

Also I have yet to see the groups of hundreds of thousands of human beings on a vegetarian diet that are free of disease and perfectly healthy and living to 120 years old. I have yet to see these studies whether new or old. I would welcome them with an open heart and mind.

The problem is that the people we can easily measure are those who are living in developed countries. In America, we consider ourselves very 'developed' but we also have some of the most processed, dead, stale, tainted, and engineered food in the world. You're asking for the impossible.

By promoting a high meat diet, you're also making it harder for such a study to be done. Where would we find hundreds of thousands of people in one location if they're all following your diet advice?

I also have not come across any religion or culture no matter how strict that has not had some form of meat or animal product in it.

The philosophy of Hinduism emphasizes living without causing cruelty to others, so many Hindu followers choose not to eat meat.

Also consider many of the major religions also had a form of murder, war, infanticide, lowering women to the level of property, acknowledgment of slavery, in some cases child or spousal abuse, and other things that most of us don't feel are such good things.

If you're Christian, you could interpret the bible to say we should not eat meat. Before we were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, we did not and everyone lived in harmony. Eating of meat is one of those things we were cursed with when we fell from grace.

Why Should Christians be Vegetarians? - Splash page
Was Jesus a Vegetarian?

There are many great things about a vegetarian diet that accompanied with local, fresh, well-raised meats and animal products could be a perfect diet that just makes sense and follows all laws of Mother Nature.

Why does it make sense? What "laws of Mother Nature" are you talking about?

I think you can get an idea of where I am coming from at this point. So to conclude, I do not agree 100% with a Vegan or Vegetarian diet.

We all have our beliefs.

Whether it be for personal or religious reasons I do believe we need meat from a spiritual sense to gather Chi and energy from other living things - done properly with respect and honor that this animal no matter how big or small is in the place to give up their lives to help you sustain yours.

If you believe in Chi, you should be against eating meat. If you believe this theory, you understand that the energy contained in the animal is transferred to you when you eat it. The last hours or days of the animals' life was on a crowded livestock truck, then chased up a chute, then whacked over the head with a captive-bolt gun. All that stress and terror is the last thing the animal knew, and the body physiology reflects this.

When a lion kills an elephant to eat he is honoring his duty as a creature that does nothing more than follow his innate natural instincts.

But are not lions. It's more like as normal as giving ground-up sheep meal to cattle to give them cheap protein. Oh, wait, cattle are better off without meat. (Side note: we created mad-cow disease by actually doing this to cattle)

We can argue that it must be natural or else we wouldn't crave meat, right? But many of us crave soda -- what's the difference? Once people try it, many of them crave heroin which is simply a natural drug made from poppies.

The latest news is that there are compounds in dairy and meat that are proven to be addictive to humans.
AR-News:Meat and Cheese Addictive
Chocolate, Cheese, Meat, and Sugar - Physically Addictive Foods - Video Library: All Creatures Articles Archive - vegan, vegetarian, human rights, animal rights, people, animals, love, compassion, peace, justice, righteousness, God, Jesus, Christ, Ho
Casomorphin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overall we don't have a nation of people who need to be reminded to eat their meat. The thing that has been forgotten is fruits, veggies, nuts & legumes. I don't know a single meat-eating friend or family member who gets enough servings of fruits/veggies but they don't rest if they don't have some sort of meat in every meal. The American mindset seems to be meals are designed around meat, and it's not a 'meal' without it. Nobody is dying of protein shortage... but lots of people are having issues with constipation, colon cancer, other cancers, IBS, and cardiovascular issues.

[funchy]

Comparative anatomy: are humans more like carnivores or herbivores?

-----------------------------------
Facial Muscles
Carnivore Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore Well-developed
Omnivore Reduced
Human Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore Angle not expanded
Herbivore Expanded angle
Omnivore Angle not expanded
Human Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Human Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore Temporalis
Herbivore Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore Temporalis
Human Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore Large
Herbivore Small
Omnivore Large
Human Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore Short and pointed
Herbivore Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore Short and pointed
Human Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore Long, sharp and curved
Human Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore None; swallows food whole
Herbivore Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore No digestive enzymes
Herbivore Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore No digestive enzymes
Human Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type
Carnivore Simple
Herbivore Simple or multiple chambers
Omnivore Simple
Human Simple

Stomach Capacity
Carnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Omnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Human 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore 10 to more than 12 times body length
Omnivore 4 to 6 times body length
Human 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore Long, complex; may be sacculated
Omnivore Simple, short and smooth
Human Long, sacculated

Liver
Carnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Omnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
Human Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney
Carnivore Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore Moderately concentrated urine
Omnivore Extremely concentrated urine
Human Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
Carnivore Sharp claws
Herbivore Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Omnivore Sharp claws
Human Flattened nails

source:

The Comparative Anatomy of Eating

[Andrew Brunelle]

Here's the thing. We compare ourselves to apes and how they only eat vegetables, but there have been reports of them hunting small animals as a group. I think we do need some amount of healthy animal products in our diet. Dairy, I don't think so, but healthy meat is something that will only enhance your health, not detract from it. But most meat today is horribly treated while it's alive, so it doesn't have many benefits. Vegetarianism can be done mindfully, but eating meat that is treated humanely and slaughtered is nothing too horrible.

It's just not black and white. Take quality over quantity. Good meat is healthy, and if you are a raw foodist, it's probably okay to eat it raw if the animal was healthy. I think one of the reasons we cook our meat so thoroughly is because there are so many bacteria and parasites in the sick and diseased animals we pass off as dinner.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by funchy

Comparative anatomy: are humans more like carnivores or herbivores?

-----------------------------------
Facial Muscles
Carnivore Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore Well-developed
Omnivore Reduced
Human Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore Angle not expanded
Herbivore Expanded angle
Omnivore Angle not expanded
Human Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Human Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore Temporalis
Herbivore Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore Temporalis
Human Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore Large
Herbivore Small
Omnivore Large
Human Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore Short and pointed
Herbivore Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore Short and pointed
Human Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore Long, sharp and curved
Human Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore None; swallows food whole
Herbivore Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore No digestive enzymes
Herbivore Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore No digestive enzymes
Human Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type
Carnivore Simple
Herbivore Simple or multiple chambers
Omnivore Simple
Human Simple

Stomach Capacity
Carnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Omnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Human 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore 10 to more than 12 times body length
Omnivore 4 to 6 times body length
Human 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore Long, complex; may be sacculated
Omnivore Simple, short and smooth
Human Long, sacculated

Liver
Carnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Omnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
Human Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney
Carnivore Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore Moderately concentrated urine
Omnivore Extremely concentrated urine
Human Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
Carnivore Sharp claws
Herbivore Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Omnivore Sharp claws
Human Flattened nails

source:

The Comparative Anatomy of Eating

I have seen that study
interesting thanks

[ChaosKiwi]

I agree with Ryan Bailey, I think many vegetarians think eating that way is a magical way to being healthier. People on vegetarian diets can be just as unhealthy as the rest of us. That being said they can be supreme models of health as well.

I do wonder where you got the idea that meat, butter, milk etc consumption has decreased over the last 50 years? I would be very interested to know as my understanding is the exact opposite.

And the remark about not seeing any vegetarians living to 120 years old. I think it is a common trap that people try to live healthier lifestyles so that they can live longer. To me this is foolish as not one second of this life is promised to you. People should eat healthier and exercise etc to feel optimal in the moment.

[RUSSLA]

good post funchy

personally, if my lifestyle did not pretty much DEMAND that i eat meat, i would probably be a vegetarian.

Right now i eat chicken and salmon, that's pretty much the only type of meat i eat. And occasionally some other types of sea food. We don't NEED meat, but it's damn tasty and my lifestyle would be alot harder to keep up without it.

another note, about farmers...my family owns a dairy farm. we're probably in the minority but we treat our animals exceptionally well...the cows are always dry, comfortable, warm, and well fed. The stalls are a little crowded but they have ample room to stand and lie down, and in the summer we put them out for 18 hours a day to pasture where they can roam and eat grass as they please. Our cows probably live better lives than 75% of humans on this planet when it comes to their basic needs being met...lol. just a thought.

Aside from that, i agree with what you said. We do live a slovenly lifestyle here in North America with little regard for how others around the world are doing, and i have a suspicion that that's all about to come crashing down...we'll see though.

Personally, i like to follow what i call the grizzly bear diet...it's kind of a diet of my own invention lol, i eat salmon 2 or 3 times a day, a ton of berries, some fruits, lots of root vegetables and leafy greens, and chicken 1 or 2 times a day and a few eggs as well. I put oats in my post workout shake but i try to limit my grain intake. Seems to be working well for me so far though.

anyways that's just my .02...good to see some healthy debate on the subject though.

[Ryan Bailey]

Wow, it seems as you did not understand some of what my points are. In terms of all of your questions and responses I think it would be fair to send a reply that has most of them answered as best as possible. It would take too much time to address all of your thoughts. I will respond in general terms that should sum up multiple answers to your questions. First off, I am not condoning a high diet of meat for all people; I just feel we as a society do not get enough GOOD QUALITY HEALTHY MEATS, PERIOD.

I still, in none of your replies, heard any arguments on why being a Vegetarian is so good for me. All I heard was you believe differently than I do and you are anti meat. I am anti poor quality meat. So we are close on one thing. I do not need to hear about what they do to livestock and that the Chi of this animal is transferred to me after I eat it. If I were that uneducated about the subject I would never have said anything about Chi and how we get it from the animals we eat. One more reason it is so important to get your meat from someone who raises the animal appropriately. Just as much as it is important what we feed them it is even more important how we treat them overall.

In terms of defining proper nutrition I know very well it is a balance of Macro and Micro nutrients from many different sources. Thank you for the lesson though. (Complete nutrition is a balance of all necessary food items: fats, proteins, carbs, vitamins, minerals, adequate water.) I do agree there is not a shortage of protein deficiency in the nation. But there is a shortage of good quality proteins, fats and amino acids being consumed, just as much as there is a shortage of good quality fruits and veggies being consumed. You say you do not know any meat eating friend who gets enough veggies per day. You also probably do not know any of them that actually consume high quality meats everyday either. I agree we do not eat enough veggies. Does this mean we all need to be Vegetarian then? NO it means sticking a balance between the two. Taking what is good from being a vegetarian and balancing it with eating some good quality meats. The amount in each person’s diet will vary depending on ones metabolic type.

You also say we have people with a shortage of fiber in their diet. Agreed. But take a look at cultures that have very little fiber such as the Eskimos as of 50 years or so ago. They had a diet void of fiber, but yet thrived in their conditions and did not have cancer or heart disease of any kind until they started adopting the SAD. So yes, we are taking fiber pills and using psyllium husk just to be able to have a bowel movement. The answer is not to become a vegetarian. The law of balance and moderation again will come in here. You could not blanketly say that the answer is to do this and becoming a vegetarian would fix it all. Additionally, I am not saying eating more meat, even the best quality, would fix it all. It will still be determined by a host of lifestyle factors delicately balanced in each person for their needs.

Cardiovascular disease and cancer are top killers of Americans. Both are clearly linked to high meat (& lower veg) diets. Sure if you are eating too much low quality meat and no veggies I guarantee dis-eases will come and find you quickly. So eat more veggies and some high quality meats. Love your body, exercise and love life in balance with everything and everyone. My whole point of this post was to get people to wake up to the reality that Vegetarianism is not the answer to all of our nutritional deficiencies. If so please let me know again. I did not find any new evidence from your post that would lead me to believe otherwise. I am not bashing being a vegetarian, I am simply trying to educate people who are interested in both sides. So often we are hated by the vegetarian community. I am just putting all the cards on the table from both sides so everyone has a fair shake at what choice they would like to make at that time. I am as much an advocate of being a vegetarian in terms of the amount of vegetables one should eat, as well as the inhumane treatment of animals. We are on the same page with that, the only difference is I believe that we need some meat in our lives, but definitely in the form of the best quality possible. Who could argue switching to a vegetarian diet and making that person feel horrible physically and emotionally. Why would you not listen to your body and its signals? Instead of just doing what someone else told you is best or because that is what it said in this book or study. Check your source and always go out and find what ever truth is available to you yourself. Do not rely on others for your beliefs, create your own! Vise versa, if you are a vegetarian and you feel wonderful and are free of dis-ease; how can I argue. I still may suggest that you need some meat. Never forget the intelligence of your own body at the present moment, but always remember if you had to force it to feel a certain way it is not your innate intelligent body speaking to you. We are creatures of adaptation so over time we will most likely adapt to anything. This does not always mean it is the best for us…

(I am not sure what the conclusion I should be drawing is? Humans also died at an average age of 25, so how could this be the ideal way to live)

Last but not least, as cavemen our reason for only living to 25 I think was a small deal to do with our food supply. Being as we did not have acute medical care we could die from simple wounds and infection or a broken leg. Another note, if we were such poor hunters how did we get this far. Would we be where we are today without meat? Where would we be without vegetables?

I think many of your questions are interesting. I honor your tenacity and ability to keep questioning the truth. Just as we all feel the intuitive ability to feel we have all the answers we really come to the realization we have very little of the truth in front of us. So I honor your responses and look forward to hearing back.

Namaste

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by RUSSLA

Personally, i like to follow what i call the grizzly bear diet...it's kind of a diet of my own invention lol, i eat salmon 2 or 3 times a day, a ton of berries, some fruits, lots of root vegetables and leafy greens, and chicken 1 or 2 times a day and a few eggs as well. I put oats in my post workout shake but i try to limit my grain intake. Seems to be working well for me so far though.

You've just described what is essentially the paleo diet. This is how I feel best, too.

[RUSSLA]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

You've just described what is essentially the paleo diet. This is how I feel best, too.

yeah it's pretty much that + oats.

I got the idea from berardi's book "grappler's guide to nutrition" excellent book for anyone interested in martial arts or even yoga or any kind of exercise/sport who is concerned about nutrition

[InterfaceLeader]

Regardless of the moral aspect, and regardless of the nutritional aspect - there are 6 billion people on this planet, with more on the way.

High-quality meat production requires space, clean water, and lots and lots of grassland. These things are becoming harder and harder to find.

So the choice is not "High-quality meat, low quality meat or no meat" the choice is:

High-quality meat for an elite few for a limited time
Low-quality meat
No meat.

[bluedragon]

Oh my God!
I think if I had dedicated my life to study nutrition only to figure out that no matter how much I know, there are always people to contradict every single affirmation relating to diet, I would shoot myself right away.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Oh my God!
I think if I had dedicated my life to study nutrition only to figure out that no matter how much I know, there are always people to contradict every single affirmation relating to diet, I would shoot myself right away.

yeh I know how you feel

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

yeh I know how you feel

And how do you feel?

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I can sum this up in a few points that I am sure can be battled till the day ends, but this is what my journey has led me to at this point

And how do you feel?



Myself, I feel like turning into a bear and go salmon-fishing in a river!

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Myself, I feel like turning into a bear and go salmon-fishing in a river!

and what would prompt you to do that



I feel that sometimes that I am in a state of information OVERLOAD


but I will do what I feel is right for me -how I feel when I eat certain foods will give me this clue
and what studies I believe in
and which I will leave alone because I think they are loaded with crap

[RUSSLA]

Originally Posted by InterfaceLeader

Regardless of the moral aspect, and regardless of the nutritional aspect - there are 6 billion people on this planet, with more on the way.

High-quality meat production requires space, clean water, and lots and lots of grassland. These things are becoming harder and harder to find.

So the choice is not "High-quality meat, low quality meat or no meat" the choice is:

High-quality meat for an elite few for a limited time
Low-quality meat
No meat.

yeh, or poor people could stop breeding like rabbits, that might solve the problem too.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

First off, I am not condoning a high diet of meat for all people; I just feel we as a society do not get enough GOOD QUALITY HEALTHY MEATS, PERIOD.

I agree with the lack of quality in the foods we buy.

However, the reality is that those good quality, healthy meats are just not available. There are two problems:

- people are not willing or able to pay $10, $15, $20 a pound for meat from an animal raised in such a way.

- let's say we're suddenly very wealthy and the cost of meat does not matter? Then we have a supply/demand issue. The resources will not allow for 300 million Americans to all have access to meat raised this way.


What's the point of advocating something almost nobody can acquire?

Where do you acquire it? Do you raise and butcher your own animals on your farm?

I do not need to hear about what they do to livestock and that the Chi of this animal is transferred to me after I eat it. If I were that uneducated about the subject I would never have said anything about Chi and how we get it from the animals we eat.

Then why did you bring up Chi if you don't want to talk about it?

Taking what is good from being a vegetarian and balancing it with eating some good quality meats.

"Balancing" implies that without good-quality meats, the diet is out of balance. What specific things do people need that they can't get without meat?

You also say we have people with a shortage of fiber in their diet. Agreed. But take a look at cultures that have very little fiber such as the Eskimos as of 50 years or so ago. They had a diet void of fiber, but yet thrived in their conditions and did not have cancer or heart disease of any kind until they started adopting the SAD.

I don't have studies on Eskimos' health. Can you point me to studies showing this? I'm sorry to sound skeptical but it's hard to believe they had no cancer?

So often we are hated by the vegetarian community.

I don't hate you. You can do what you wish, and you have every right to your own beliefs.

If anything vegetarians are hated because we represent change. People are not always comfortable with change. Those advocating a low or no meat diet also have to fight against the multi-billion dollar meat agribusiness industy. Even our Federal government's nutritional information and food pyramid are influenced by those who have a profit stake in meat production & consumption.

A person's right to exercise one's beliefs end when it negatively affects others. I speak up for the harm meat production does to public health, the environment, and to the animals themselves.

For example:
Did you know a pig produces the same amount and quality of feces a person does? Commercial pig farms may have 5,000 animals. A village of 5000 people must have a sewer system and treatment plant, but a pig farm at best has open lagoons of waste. Then the unprocessed waste is sprayed on fields to leave pathogens on plants or to run-off into streams. WHY do pig farmers get away with this while I need a septic tank if I were to build a tiny cottage in the woods? Same is true for poultry, dairy farms, and other confined animals.... vast amounts of untreated waste.

Sustainable Table: The Issues: Waste

Marks Dairy Farm Manure Spill Threatens Environment and Public Health

Factoid - That Stinks - Sierra Club

Manure spill poses no threat to Lake Ontario: official




So, yes, your choice to consume a luxury food item does affect others.

I am just putting all the cards on the table from both sides so everyone has a fair shake at what choice they would like to make at that time.

No, to be fair you're putting your cards on the table. You make no mention of any positive aspects of skipping out on meat.

I admittedly am biased against meat because I see no positive benefits of it besides supposed taste/enjoyment. It's unnecessary.

I am as much an advocate of being a vegetarian in terms of the amount of vegetables one should eat, as well as the inhumane treatment of animals.

Would you be willing to give up meat, if I could give you proof of how inhumane meat production is?

Who could argue switching to a vegetarian diet and making that person feel horrible physically and emotionally.

Something is wrong if a person stops eating meat and feels "horrible physically and emotionally". When I hear someone trying a veg diet and "feeling terrible" it often turns out they're not eating a balanced diet... period. Or some of them are bad eaters no matter what: living on twinkies and fried foods and such.

You write from a very western-diet mindset. You forget that in large parts of the world meat is a luxury or just not a normal staple of the diet. We tend to think that because industrialized nations have beef, chicken, pork, and fish that all cultures place such emphasis on meat in every dish.

Why would you not listen to your body and its signals?

If our body screams that it really wants something, is that reason enough to consume it? If the something is caffeine or sugar? What if we can demonstrate the same addictive qualities to meat products as proven addictive items such as caffeine?

Instead of just doing what someone else told you is best or because that is what it said in this book or study. Check your source and always go out and find what ever truth is available to you yourself. Do not rely on others for your beliefs, create your own!

Truth should be an objective concept, not a belief or a feeling. If "truth" is whatever we just want, then there is no hope for ever having a rational, logical discussion.

You say you'd like people to check sources. I would like to check your sources. Would you mind citing some of them? Thank you.

I still may suggest that you need some meat.

But ... why? Can you give me some objective scientific reason?

I gave up all meat when I went off to college and could make my own food choices. Suddenly it dawn on me I could have a delicious meal without needing a big hunk of pork or a greasy burger. It's been I don't know 12 or 14 years since I've eaten ANY meat, fish, poultry, seafood, etc. What do I need it for?

And an interesting thing happened: when I stopped putting meat on my plate, I lost that mental justification of 'we need meat' or 'meat is a part of life'. It was only then I could really see the connection between animal abuse and the thing on my plate. I grew up thinking meat was something that came on Styrofoam trays at my grocer; I had been so disconnected that this was a living animal's leg or back.

Last but not least, as cavemen our reason for only living to 25 I think was a small deal to do with our food supply.

Here's an amusing cartoon I stumbled across today, and I thought of our discussion.

[bluedragon]

What is a reliable source of information on what prehistorical people ate?

[brandongilbert]

i think we should make a clear distinction between eating local, small scale, sustainable animal products vs. consuming factory farmed products.

its obvious that factory farms are destroying the planet and peoples health. that practice is not sustainable.. however this doenst mean you have to become a strict vegan.

if you have access to local small scale animal products then go for it. find local farmers and get your stuff right from them. find farmers markets. skip grocery stores.

[bluedragon]

I remember, when I was in Ohio, there was a supermarket that claimed they had had contact with local farmers and growers for 20 years and they promoted local trade.
It was really cool, you could find 20 kinds of salads, 10 kinds of peppers, 7 kinds of apples, even 5 kinds of mint leafs They had everything, as well as products from all around the world, like french cheese, Italian olive oil, organic coffee from African "fair trade" enterprises etc. I wasn't looking for no meat to grill behind the Howard Johnson I was staying at, but I'm sure they also had products from local butcheries.

[Raymond Burton]

I've been doing my own trial for almost a month now and did my bodyfat%, measurements and basic lift strength tests for comparison. At this point, for me personally I feel best with a more raw, paleolithic approach like pyrogen
and Russla were mentioning.

I'm also a fan of Chek and Berardi's stuff so I don't know if maybe a little past conditioning from all my studies being related to muscular development and performance has bearing on my beliefs about diet.

For now though, this is where I'm at. I'd love to be able to nail down actual unbiased studies about an anabolic environment in the body and overall protein intake though.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by brandongilbert

i think we should make a clear distinction between eating local, small scale, sustainable animal products vs. consuming factory farmed products...if you have access to local small scale animal products then go for it. find local farmers and get your stuff right from them. find farmers markets. skip grocery stores.

At the risk of repeating myself....

Small scale does not automatically mean sustainable, humane, healthy, or properly fed. Small scale just means...well... small.

You cannot go to a farmer's market and look at the butcher counter and know how the animals were raised. No offense, but the little shop "knowing the farmers" doesn't make the animals raised in any better of a way.

The meat farmers aren't going to admit what they're doing might be causing the animals poor health, suffering, or injury. They tell themselves these are "just animals" or "this is how it's always been done" or "oh no that can't possibly hurt a chicken". Who wants to admit they're intentionally cruel or abusive?

I feel like I know pretty well how meat animals are raised because I'm in a farming area. Many of my neighbors raise meat animals. When I go over to visit I can see in the pens or barns. And despite visiting farms, I've looked and cannot find any letting their animals live in a natural, healthy, suffering-free way. If such a thing exists, I am unable to locate it.

Even when the farmer's only raising a dozen pigs, the animals are locked in a dark, cement-floored old shed and fed rotten (people) food. The animals are still put through a long ride to auction or slaughter, then they're killed in a manner which is time-efficient for the slaughterhouse but maybe not in the best interest of a more humane death. Yes they're small-scale and might even meet "organic" criteria if the rotten produce they're fed is "organic", but that doesn't mean they're living as nature intended.

The one farmer across the road from me does small scale dairy. However, with any dairy, the cows are kept pregnant. Every male cow is useless to a dairy farmer, so he's locked in a tiny tiny cage or pen ("veal"). It doesn't matter if a farmer is doing a dairy of 25 cows or 250, this is what must happen to male calves. I don't understand how this can be humane? Take a grazing animal away from his mother's milk at birth, never to graze on grass, never to leave his tiny cage until the day he's put on the truck to the slaughterhouse? How can it be healthy for him to be confined where he cannot walk around (or in some cases even turn around)

To sell meat to the public, all American meat needs to be processed at a USDA-approved facility. You cannot legally buy meat that isn't USDA. This means all livestock face the same type of death. Commercial slaughterhouses are designed to covert animals into cuts of meat as inexpensively as possible, and this does not require the animal be handled kindly or killed humanely. Even tiny farms have to send their animals to a USDA processing facility, if they wish to legally sell to others.

The entire system of how meat is produced is so deep-rooted. This is "just how it's done". And they're not willing to change, especially when profits might be endangered. And since 99% of the public doesn't see what happens to produce meat, out of sight - out of mind.

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. "
— Paul McCartney