The Vegetarian Myth!

[mulbrich]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

I am not DOWNPLAYING intelligence at all people !

I wasn't saying that at all, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. But that actually makes sense, I guess I can see how people can be really compassionate either way.

[lifetimelearner]

sorry I get defensive sometimes

what happened to my compassion

[lifetimelearner]

back to the vegetarian myth issue
here is an article I like -

An Inconvenient Truth: We Are Eating Our Planet to Death

[lifeforce]

A simple look at meat eating animals and plant eating animals tells us that humans are meat eaters. First of all, flesh eaters, humans included have their eyes plased calose together in the front (cats, humans, dogs). Plant eaters have their eyes spread apart (gazelles, horses etc).

Also, red meat is the best bodybuilding food. That only tells us that meats builds the body better than plants.

[Joeschmoe]

The exception to the eyes on the side rule is arboreal herbivores, like primates. The eyes are placed in front for 3-d vision, in order to judge the distance to the next branch. What else you got?

[funchy]

Originally Posted by lifeforce

A simple look at meat eating animals and plant eating animals tells us that humans are meat eaters. First of all, flesh eaters, humans included have their eyes plased calose together in the front (cats, humans, dogs). Plant eaters have their eyes spread apart (gazelles, horses etc).

That is incorrect. Eyes close together is an evolutionary advantage for best depth perception. A predator might benefit from it, but not all predators have this trait (eg. eagles, alligators, etc). An animal that relies on climbing, swinging, or jumping (eg primates) would also benefit from good depth perception.

Also, red meat is the best bodybuilding food.

What is your reasoning behind that?

Meat is just proteins, fats, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids. These are the same components in plants. It's actually more work to break down flesh back into those component parts and reassemble them within your cells. Why not get those building blocks straight from the plants (and avoid the accumulated contaminants such as herbicides, pesticides) etc?

If an animal needed meat to build good muscle & be a peak athlete, why don't racehorses eat meat?

Here are some awesome meat-free body builders:
Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness
Vegan bodybuilding
Bodybuilder puts a new face on veganism - Marin Independent Journal

[lifetimelearner]

thanks for the websites

I will have to show them to MY muscle building son that thinks meat is the only way to build muscles

[lgm27]

Vegetarianism, the Holocaust and the Myth of Civilization « Thomas Paine's Corner



(Facts AGAINST lierre keith!)

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

surely you are joking

Yeah... Meat = masculinity.
Meat rules!! = Men rule!

Taken literally, it is true.

[sirkinm]

Has the meat vs. vegetarian argument been done to death yet?

How about everyone just work on resolving whatever conflict exists within themselves, and then things will work out. No need to push your own beliefs on others to make yourself feel better.

I've been on both sides of the fence (currently a meat-eater, but was a vegetarian for over 5 years). I thrive with meat in my diet, and I don't mind making animals my dinner if it's done in a compassionate way.

For those who think it's an imperative moral issue, the anger, indignation and self-righteousness that you bring to the table doesn't help. As I said, work on resolving these within yourself first, and then choose the right action.

[weblily]

What exactly is a vegetarian diet? Most people are now following a certain diet for different reasons; it can be for health-related reasons or for weight loss-related reasons. Some of these people are into vegetarian diets. People became vegetarians because of various beliefs and reasons. Some of the common beliefs and reasons are; ecological and economical concerns, religious beliefs, dislike and side effects of eating meat, non-violence belief toward animals and animal compassion.

[joelr]

Health wise I'm not sure but as far as meat being natural it's pretty solid.

There is excellent evidence of 1.5 million year old hominid butchering and marrow-processing activities at two different sites in Africa. This would have probably been Homo Erectus.
H. Erectus was also the first hominid to have a much larger brain as a result of increased protein/fat. This was the first Hominid to wander all over the globe and the first systematic hunter.

There were a few other species that came from them but most died out. The one that lived was us, homo sapien. Erectus was able to survive in many places, the plains dwellers and other inhospitable regions must have given rise to daily hunting.

I noticed vegetarian websites usually reference our herbivore ancestors from 4-5 million years ago but skip over newer apes archeology has found.

[Beuford]

joelr, digging up a few stone tools does not mean humans used to be big meat eaters. Do you think there is archaeological evidence of man eating plants? I don't think it is possible to dig up the remains of a skeleton picking berries. Archaeology is limited.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Beuford

joelr, digging up a few stone tools does not mean humans used to be big meat eaters. Do you think there is archaeological evidence of man eating plants? I don't think it is possible to dig up the remains of a skeleton picking berries. Archaeology is limited.

The evidence I mentioned was more than a few tools, it also included animal bones that were processed by tools.

Yes there is indirect evidence for plant eating.

Looking at modern humans who have lived in recent times but still use stone age tools, the diet is around 20% animal. This fits in with other archaeological theories.

Studies done on gut form and digestive properties agree that pre humans ate meat on a regular basis.

There are areas that hominids lived that could not support nutritional needs without some hunting. Especially during migration into unknown areas, H. Erectus wandered all over the globe into all sorts of unknown vegetation.

There are many bird and small mammal extinctions corresponding to the arrival of hominids in many different areas. Hundreds in Europe Australia/New Zealand.

[Herbivore]

Same, and I mean, SAME old arguments decade after decade by meat-eaters who don't wan't to feel guilty, so BUY into the myths from the gov food pyrimid designed by the animal industries.

This thread should've died with the first post:

eat a large variety of seeds, nuts, beans and legumes you will still be low on the amount of protein the human body needs to repair everyday

That is so IGONRANT I don't know where to begin. To "think" we need 7% protein as babies; then full grown we need MORE. Most seeds, nuts, beans and legumes contain 15-30% protein. How much more than 7% do we need?

[scorpio1980]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

Same, and I mean, SAME old arguments decade after decade by meat-eaters who don't wan't to feel guilty, so BUY into the myths from the gov food pyrimid designed by the animal industries.

This thread should've died with the first post:



That is so IGONRANT I don't know where to begin. To "think" we need 7% protein as babies; then full grown we need MORE. Most seeds, nuts, beans and legumes contain 15-30% protein. How much more than 7% do we need?

I don't know where you have been, but the food pyramid promotes grains over everything else. Also, to call eating animals ignorant, we must first look at the fact that eating grains are much less natural than eating animals.

[Herbivore]

NOW you use logic. Right! They're both un-natural. That's why I stopped eating grain too. And THAT's why I dis the pyrimid.


Next

(rolls eye's) (tired of the lunacy)

[Herbivore]

And Scorpio, you got confused again. Go back and look and what I called ignorant.

[Excellent Lodestar]

We’ve been told that a vegetarian diet can feed the hungry, honor the animals, and save the planet. Lierre Keith believed in that plant-based diet and spent twenty years as a vegan. But in The Vegetarian Myth,Amazon.com: The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability (9781604860801): Lierre Keith: Books she argues that we’ve been led astray--not by our longings for a just and sustainable world, but by our ignorance. I've just started reading this book...from what i've read so far, she just nails it,from Moral Vegetarians to Political Vegetarians to Nutritional Vegetarians

The truth is that agriculture is a relentless assault against the planet, and more of the same won’t save us. In service to annual grains, humans have devastated prairies and forests, driven countless species extinct, altered the climate, and destroyed the topsoil--the basis of life itself.

the first few pages can be read here

Work

[Beuford]

So, Excellent Lodestar, what's more efficient, growing 1kg of apples or 1kg of beef? Even vegan agriculture might not be perfect, but it is on a far lower scale and is much more sustainable than growing meat.

And, I don't know if this is an argument in the book, but saying we need these animals to give back nutrients to the soil is rubbish too, because then that soil is just used to grow more grain to feed back to the animals. They don't produce more nutrients than they eat. Besides, livestock aren't the only animals that create faeces.

Smoking 100 cigarettes is bad for you. Smoking 1600 cigarettes is bad for you. Neither are sustainable so I may as well just smoke them all. I don't know if that is the message the book gives or what you were trying to say, but that's how I interpreted it.

[Jaiysun4]

Hi everyone,

I must admit, several meat-eaters here have some very good points.

But on the not-so-good ones:

1. Because we ate meat in our history doesn't mean we should continue. Human history is full of war - does that make it ok to start a war now?

2. Everyone is biologically different, and needs to alter their diet to ensure they feel and look well. Granted, eating vegetarian requires extra effort in order to supply the body effectively. But when does extra effort outweigh a perceived moral value of an act? Is being vegetarian really THAT difficult?

3. The idea that something is good because it is "natural." Sleeping outside naked in the mud and rain, is "natural." Go do it then!

And how much discomfort should we take, against the discomfort of an animal who may have been caged, tortured, killed?

All interesting questions... I do believe than being a vegetarian involves a degree of sacrifice. But then most good moral acts seem to involve putting something before your own basic desires.

i believe it is not intrinsically wrong to eat Meat. Just to eat Meat when one does not need to nutrionally. Or even worse, to cage, torture and kill for laziness just because it tastes good. That is a simple, animalistic way to live that is essentially ignorant, because it avoids asking yourself all sorts of interesting questions, the answers to which we may not enjoy.

Quite often, people sweep away the nagging feeling that they shouldn't eat meat, because everyone else seems to do it, and they don't harbour any self doubt about it. Its nice to be confident and stop "worrying about the little things." Out of sight, out of mind is perhaps applicable, and just because the majority do it doesnt make it right, either.

Don't forget that it makes sense environmentally either. Sure, it requires extra effort, but if you have the nagging feeling it might be morally questionable, you should reason the question through with yourself and come to a suitable answer, rather than just follow your drives and basic desires.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

The truth is that agriculture is a relentless assault against the planet, and more of the same won’t save us. In service to annual grains, humans have devastated prairies and forests, driven countless species extinct, altered the climate, and destroyed the topsoil--the basis of life itself.

Well over 65% of these grains are fed to animals on feed lots as they are going to be slaughtered for meat for meat eaters. The grains that do end up feeding humans are overprocessed junk like cereals and breads.

A vegan diet that consists of mainly fruit and vegetables with proper agricultural methods is sustainable.

Animal based and grain based diets are both detrimental to the planet.

In all three cases, most people could do with eating less, which would require farmining less too. But we can't do that, because it would get in the way of the corporate machine.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Well over 65% of these grains are fed to animals on feed lots as they are going to be slaughtered for meat for meat eaters. The grains that do end up feeding humans are overprocessed junk like cereals and breads.

A vegan diet that consists of mainly fruit and vegetables with proper agricultural methods is sustainable.

Animal based and grain based diets are both detrimental to the planet.

In all three cases, most people could do with eating less, which would require farmining less too. But we can't do that, because it would get in the way of the corporate machine.

It is also the truth that in the last hundred and ten years or so the American diet has changed a lot. From eating a small portion of meat one or two times per week with what ever grains, vegetables and fruits that were available at the moment we have moved to a diet that is deemed deficient by the majority of citizens in the developed world if their is not ample portions of meat at each and every meal.

My grandfather and grandmother who were born in 1900 and 1902 respectively in a small rural farming community often spoke of feeling well off and well fed if they had meat for Sunday dinner. The rest of the week it was either left over meat from that Sunday dinner or meatless meals.

This was the way foods the working man and middle class lived at that time. They were still omnivores but the biggest portion of there food was not meat or meat products.

[Herbivore]

Well, I guess this can't be stopped. Arguments occur because of ignorance.

several meat-eaters here have some very good points.

Flat-earth proponents have some good points too.

PS - notice the OP joined 10 months ago and has made 2 posts. What was his motivation? ? ? ? Seems he wants to stop people from being vegans. I understand wanting to stop their arguments. He seems to be trying to stop arguments by stopping veganism(by saying things that are not true).

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by funchy

Some animals learn by mimicking others, not by direct training.

This is very true. Sometimes my dog gets eczema, which makes him want to scratch. Recently I was looking after another friend's dog, during which time my dog had an outbreak. After a couple of days, my friend's dog started scratching too, which confused me, because it's not like eczema is catching. I kept checking him, and he didn't have anything wrong that would make him scratch (fleas, dry skin, etc).

Then I realised my friend's dog wasn't really scratching. He was more just going through the motions. Finally (I'm not too bright) I worked out that he was mimicking my dog, because when my dog scratches, usually I will gently stop his paw, and pat him for a moment to distract him while the itch subsides. My friend's dog saw that my dog was getting attention and a pat every time he scratched, so he pretended to scratch too, to get attention for himself.

That's a pretty fast learning curve for a little dog, to mimic another dog's behaviour in order to get attention from a third party!

I could give lots of other examples but this is already a rather long-winded way to explain that I think animals function with much higher desire and concept processing than we usually give them credit for – mostly because we just don't spend that much time observing them. I bet you'd see cows and rabbits and chickens and pigs all do some pretty clever and funny things once you started paying attention to them. And because I couldn't imagine turning my dog – a sentient being with the ability to surprise me, learn, show desire, affection and other emotions – into a kebab, I decided to extend the same courtesy to other animals that I haven't had the privilege of spending one-on-one time with.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Jaiysun4

Hi everyone,


3. The idea that something is good because it is "natural." Sleeping outside naked in the mud and rain, is "natural." Go do it then!

I'm not weighing in on the "you should" discussion, just the idea that pre-humans did eat meat to some degree.

Sleeping outside in the rain is not natural to modern homo sapien apes nor it's direct ancestors h. hidelbergensis or probably even h. erectus.
All these species started losing body hair because they were smart enough to construct protection against the elements. Our modern internal heating/cooling does not support sleeping outside in rainy bushes like a cat would. We started losing that ability once early hominids became smart enough to create shelter.
I don't even know how far back you would have to go to find a ancestor mammal sleeping in the rain?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

the first few pages can be read here

Work

What I read was a pretty sanctimonious diatribe predicated on one obviously ridiculous comment allegedly made on a vegan message board somewhere, sometime (with how many members? 20? 30?) that could have been written by an 11-year-old for all we know. Does the rest of the book continue in the same vein of condescending lecturing based on straw-man reasoning (most vegetarians would think it would be a workable idea to fence off predators and prey in Africa)?

I find it interesting that she doesn't bother to source claims that she says vegetarians make ("I've heard vegetarian activists say...") but she does directly source rebuttal claims ("Joel Salatin... puts that figure at..." Incidentally, has anyone else wondered if Joel Salatin is the only sustainable farmer in America, going by the number of times he pops up in books and films as the resident expert?). Judging by the book's first chapter, Keith doesn't seem to have many basic journalistic skills.

[Herbivore]

And another thing about the good points made......


IT DOESN'T MATTER!!

None of us would have to waste our time making points if everyone got the fact that plant-diets are not "lacking". It's a silly notion when you realize plants are the original food from nature; where nutrients originate.

It's also silly if you think - this "important" meat is obtained from herbivorous animals. Uhuuuuuu....

[Indiana]

That's true, Herbivore, although I think it misses the point that the vast majority of people who eat meat don't do it because they think being a vegetarian won't give them everything they need nutritionally, or because they have spent time rationalising the cost:benefit ratios of meat farming over agricultural development.

They do it because that's what they've always done, and they've never really thought much about it one way or the other; and/or because meat can be really, really tasty, and they like to eat it.

They find it tasty and convenient, and those two factors generally have more instant importance than the more ephemeral concepts of nutrition, animal welfare and environmental sustainability.

Vegetarianism fails the basic taste and convenience test to a lot of people. The way to change their minds is to make vegetarian food very widely available and delicious.

[agnostic]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

And another thing about the good points made......


IT DOESN'T MATTER!!

None of us would have to waste our time making points if everyone got the fact that plant-diets are not "lacking". It's a silly notion when you realize plants are the original food from nature; where nutrients originate.

It's also silly if you think - this "important" meat is obtained from herbivorous animals. Uhuuuuuu....

Do you realize that there are different animals with different biochemistries and therefore different needs? Many animals produce their own vitamin C for example. Every living being is its own chemistry laboratory. We can't live on a diet of rotten trees. Termites can. And we can eat the termites. Cats eat grass to induce vomiting, but -being carnivores- can live on 100% grass-fed beef.

It would help if instead of the underlining and sizing functions of this forum, you would use the hyperlink function to reference some of the stuff you are saying.