The Vegetarian Myth!

[vMike]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

hmmm interesting

is that a Nazi cross?

[Victor Vikingr]

No, but I think that's where the idea for it came from.

[Raymond Burton]

Yes, the swastika and the Christian cross are both borrowed symbols...as is the traditional cloven hoofed image of the devil. It's the old switch-er-o..

Swastika
Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cross:
Cross - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Devil image
Cernunnos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not that Wiki is the most reliable reference material but it was a quick search....

[Raymond Burton]

lifetimelearner - I think he was referring to the jainism link. When you click it you see the swastika or "nazi cross" ish....

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by vMike

is that a Nazi cross?

I meant the religion was interesting

I did not even see that until you said that

geez !

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Raymond Burton

lifetimelearner - I think he was referring to the jainism link. When you click it you see the swastika or "nazi cross" ish....

thanks I had to go back and look again
I was too interested in the reading that I did not notice that

[Cron]

I recommend that everyone read a copy of "The China Study". The books is about a study for which it was named after, the largest population nutrition study in history. The study was conducted by and the book was written by T Colin Cambell. One of the top scientists in the U.S. for over 50 years. He is not a vegetarian, but his study concludes that consuming animal proteins dramatically increases your chances of cancer and other diseases.

[Joeschmoe]

T Colin Campbell is a vegan. He made the switch after studying the subject for 30 years.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Cron

I recommend that everyone read a copy of "The China Study". The books is about a study for which it was named after, the largest population nutrition study in history. The study was conducted by and the book was written by T Colin Cambell. One of the top scientists in the U.S. for over 50 years. He is not a vegetarian, but his study concludes that consuming animal proteins dramatically increases your chances of cancer and other diseases.

I read that a few years ago-good study

[yoopersmith]

Hey I'm an omnivore and support all choices as personal and therefore not my business...

...Me I want to work on improving my diet to eat real natural (organic maybe) not processed icky food...meat included.

I have done without meat for a few days at a time and felt fine, so I know I could be a vegetarian, it just not that important for me to deal with the effort now...maybe later...maybe not.

...in the end, I don't think it really matters what I eat...other than perhaps changing my own state of mind and health...

...maybe some day McDonald's will only sell very healthy raw food...and we will all want our nasty factory beef back...seems like we want what is difficult to get sometimes....hmmm....

[painofsalvation]

Originally Posted by vMike

Again, animals have instincts, habits, not clear thoughts, or desires and definitely not self-conscience as we do. They are not capable of imagination. And that's been proven scientifically. Sure they can do a bunch of stuff, have sharp teeth and can run really fast. But they spend their whole day on basic needs like food, security, building a shelter and mating.

Can you cite any scientific study that shows exactly how animals experience life?
I don't think anybody knows exactly how others perceive life, but we can make predictions based on our way to perceive it and the reactions we observe from others.

For example, if you poke a pig with a hot stick, the pig will probably scream and run from you. From that you'll assume that the animal feels something similar to what you'd feel if you were burned.

When I show a leash to my dog, he starts to jump all over me and gets all excited because he knows he's going out for a walk. And during the walk he gets so engaged and focused on his own world, I could never guess what's going on in his mind.

My girlfriend had two dogs that lived together for 10 years. When one of them died, the other one got visibly depressed for months. So, IMO, animals do have emotions, memories, desires. They might not understand them the way we do, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them.

But let's suppose you're right. Animals are like rocks that feel pain and that's why we can do whatever we want with them. Now, how about people with mental disorders that don't understand the world around them? Would it be right to use them for our most trivial desires?

Pain is pain, my friend. Whether you know how to build rockets or not.

Originally Posted by vMike

What does this have to do with our superiority over animals? People have morals, rules and extremely complicated social structures. This is what makes us human, we govern our own lives and live in peace with each other (well, mostly). We choose to live our own way and pursue our goals and ideals, which may be different of what our parents, society and nature have planned for us. We don't need to live based on instincts developed by millions of years of evolution, but rather make our own fate.

You're contradicting yourself. On the other post you based your behavior on lions, now you say that we have morals and should not base our actions simply on instincts.

I think you're ready to find any excuse you can to justify your habit. But at the end of the day you're just killing sentient beings for no other reason than pleasure and convenience.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by vMike

Mother Nature is a cruel ♥♥♥♥♥, go watch national geographic, see how a lion rips apart an antelope and then eats it alive with the insides first, or how a colony of ants attacks a colony of termites, paralyze them with their poisonous stings and drag them back as stacks of food... I can't argue about the health benefits, but all those trying to say eating meat is somehow immoral or inhuman.

So we're no better than animals?

And if some animals practice infanticide, eating of their own species, or rape-as-breeding, we should do it too? If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us.

You know that some female insects kill and/or eat the male after mating. Think about that next time you go out on a date.

[Raymond Burton]

I read one post and I think "YA! You're Right!" then I read the next one and I'm like "Well...that's a great point too..."

It seems it all comes back to the fact that 'right and wrong' is a battle that can't have a final outcome because 'right and wrong' will always be subjective to the morals and beliefs of the person holding the particular view.

*Sigh*

[funchy]

Originally Posted by vMike

Humans are definitely superior and the animals are nowhere as evolved as humans.
Animals act mostly based on instincts, they aren't capable of sentient thoughts, imagination, of self-conscience.

Prove it. And how do you define "thoughts" or "self conscience"?


Some animals learn by mimicking others, not by direct training. This is how human children learn. Dolphins and some species of primates are long known to do this, but now some are showing evidence dogs and horses can do it too.

Some animals use tools and plan ahead. There is a wonderful book describing the life of zoo animals behind the scenes (sorry the title escapes me). It talked about the amazing ways primates planned their escapes. They'd make tools, HIDE the tools, know to wait until after closing, and then pick the mechanisms holding a door or panel shut.

Some animals are creative. How about the story of dolphins: they were trained that by retrieving objects and bringing them to the humans they got a fish reward. The dolphins ran out of objects. One of them saved a fish, brought it to the surface later, used it to catch a GULL, and brought the bird to the keeper for more rewards. How is that for creative? And even better, no trainers taught the others, but the rest of that tank of dolphins learned it from the first one.

Is smart reserved for only dolphins and apes? No. Consider the lowly octopus which isn't even a vertebrae. They're smart enough not only to escape but to plan an escape using time and things in their tank. Some intentionally clog the filter intake so humans have to open the lid to the enclosure to work. There was a story about another one which somehow knew that it could safely squirt water at the overhead lighting, shorting it out, and getting the tank opened. There are stories of octopus which have cleverly escaped out of their little enclosed tanks, ate fish in another tank, and returned to their own tank by morning, puzzling the workers.

Some animals can recognize themselves in a mirror, a proof of a sense of self.

We have apes that no only can be taught language (sign language), they can teach OTHER apes without humans doing the training. Other animals may not have formal language, but they do clearly communicate with others.

We have examples of animals which play with objects, generalize concepts, communicate, work cooperatively, and social interaction/structure... all traits of human intelligence.


No, animals haven't built nuclear weapons, made crack-cocaine, or held the Spanish Inquisition.... but if these animals are shown to be clearly as smart & self-aware as a human infant or toddler, why is it ok to kill the former for mere gustatory pleasure yet never ok to kill the latter?



A few links:
GNN - Brainy Border Collie Knows 200 Words

Dolphins are smart | The Allen Almanac

How smart is the octopus? - By Carl Zimmer - Slate Magazine

#30: Magpies Recognize Themselves in the Mirror | Animal Intelligence | DISCOVER Magazine

Neurophilosophy : 5 amazing feats of animal intelligence

Discovery Channel :: News - Earth :: Animal Intelligence Resists Definition

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Raymond Burton

It seems it all comes back to the fact that 'right and wrong' is a battle that can't have a final outcome because 'right and wrong' will always be subjective to the morals and beliefs of the person holding the particular view.

That's easy: consult with who this discussion is about, the animal. Does a cow or pig willingly accept pain and death? Or does he have a sense of self-preservation and a natural aversion to pain?

[Raymond Burton]

Confused man (or was it Confucius?) say: "Don't go to battle with an empty clip."

I don't have any ammo on this topic and you seem really knowledgeable with many resources Funchy, so I'm not going to argue sides. I honestly don't know where I stand on this but am appreciating all the opinions and open discussion.

[painofsalvation]

Great reply funchy!

It reminded me of a nice video I just saw the other day: YouTube - Beagle Escape.

There's another great one that I think everybody has watched, but here's the link anyway (it's worth to watch until the end): YouTube - Battle at Kruger

Just a couple of examples of how dumb animals are.

[vMike]

Originally Posted by painofsalvation

You're contradicting yourself. On the other post you based your behavior on lions, now you say that we have morals and should not base our actions simply on instincts.

I think you're ready to find any excuse you can to justify your habit. But at the end of the day you're just killing sentient beings for no other reason than pleasure and convenience.

I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself by comparing lions to humans and for the 4th time, animals act based on instincts and simple habits, needs, we choose our own path. I don't base my behavior on lions, I brought the example to show you the animal cruelty.

But seriously if you adore animals so much, just go live in the wild. Give up all the benefits of technology, relocate to the forest, erase thousands of years of civilization and spend your whole day gathering fruits, till you get eaten by a predator, or just die from starvation, or disease and the best thing is when you get old and weak animals will gather around in their friendly way to give you last respect and eat you while you're still alive.

Some animals are creative. How about the story of dolphins: they were trained that by retrieving objects and bringing them to the humans they got a fish reward.

sorry that just cracked me up
And you don't see the irony in this? You're trying to prove how animals are smart, by showing how we taught them to do things we want for our entertainment..

No, animals haven't built nuclear weapons

Just to add this, yes there are a few countries that have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet, and there was at least one time in history when we were pretty close to it, but nuclear weapons also mean that next time a huge meteor comes crushing into earth we can protect ourselves and prevent another mass extinction event, like the one that wiped out the dinosaurs.

[funchy]

Hi vMike,

Thanks for your replies.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some of these animal issues.

Originally Posted by vMike

I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself by comparing lions to humans and for the 4th time, animals act based on instincts and simple habits, needs, we choose our own path. I don't base my behavior on lions, I brought the example to show you the animal cruelty.

I don't understand. I hear meat-eaters such as yourself defend their actions by saying "nature is cruel, therefore what's wrong with us being cruel" ; but then the same people say "but we're so much better than nature". Which is it?

Unlike an animal, if we're born with the ability to have a conscience, why not to use it?

But seriously if you adore animals so much, just go live in the wild.

Allow me to flip that idea:

If you adore meat so much, just go chase down your next meal, without benefit of gun or vehicle. Try to kill an adult steer using only your own strength, no weapons. Try to tear off bits of meat without claws or sharp teeth. Try to digest the uncooked flesh of a pig without falling sick. The point: meat in our diet today is an unnatural addition.

sorry that just cracked me up and you don't see the irony in this? You're trying to prove how animals are smart, by showing how we taught them to do things we want for our entertainment..

Nobody taught the dolphin that gulls were to be caught, how to catch them, where to keep the bait, or how to teach the other dolphins in the tank this behavior. I think it's amazing they didn't gobble down their whole fish meal in the first place, but rather saved it for a non-instinctual future plan.

A web page about one tank of dolphins doing it:
“and so gull baiting has become a hot game among dolphins”*|*ArsGeek

And another neat dolphin story:
Do Dolphins Have a Sense of the Future? -A Galaxy Classic


In recognition, we respect dolphins by killing them and throwing away the dead bodies like trash.

In the rush to get cheaper fish, 6 million dolphins have died as "by-catch" just from tuna fishing alone, since fishermen went to large nets in the 1950s.
The Tuna-Dolphin Issue - SWFSC



Even worse, some fishermen are so greedy they (erroneously) think that by killing dolphins, it means more fish for them. So dolphins are killed en masse and their bodies discarded or used as cheap bait.
CSI Whales Alive! Vol. XVI No. 4 Dolphins Killed in Brazil; You Can Help Stop It
Fisheries Factsheet | The Humane Society of the United States

Intentionally snaring a dolphin, then spearing it to death:


My apologies for the somewhat graphic nature of this story and accompanying photos of mass slaughter of dolphins. I lack the ability to adequately describe the extent to which humans violently destroy all life around them. No this pic is not photoshopped.

I ask myself if we're so superior to animals, why do we do these things? Why doesn't humankind respect life?

nuclear weapons also mean that next time a huge meteor comes crushing into earth we can protect ourselves and prevent another mass extinction event, like the one that wiped out the dinosaurs.

That's not real life. That's a plot to a Hollywood movie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(film)

[Raymond Burton]

Allow me to flip that idea:

If you adore meat so much, just go chase down your next meal, without benefit of gun or vehicle. Try to kill an adult steer using only your own strength, no weapons. Try to tear off bits of meat without claws or sharp teeth. Try to digest the uncooked flesh of a pig without falling sick. The point: meat in our diet today is an unnatural addition.

That's interesting to think about. We're pretty harmless with our natural weapons (or lack thereof). Looks like we've evolved into some pretty hostile creatures.

I've tried eating a large steak really raw and it's tuff to do. I actually had an organic steak and a bowl of brown rice with veggies yesterday. (I've been experimenting with Raw,veggie,lacto-ovo and such recently). After a few bites of the steak I actually didnt like it for some reason. That's really strange for me. So I put it in the fridge and enjoyed the rest of my rice.


I'm not sure if I used the quote feature right, so if this turned out wonky,sorry.

[jokerman]

If I lived in the forest, and I had the choice whether to forage for berries and shrubs, or kill a bear and eat it, I would eagerly do the latter. Then I would sleep in his cozy carcass during the cold night.

[Raymond Burton]

You might also become a bear snack :-) Berries don't bite back....

[painofsalvation]

I think everyone should watch Earthlings.

It's not the kind of documentary you'll see on mainstream media and it will definitely increase your awareness regarding human relationship with animals.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by funchy

.

You know that some female insects kill and/or eat the male after mating. Think about that next time you go out on a date.

LOL

[lifetimelearner]

this is one of my favorite movies :
Powder (1995)


the movie teaches several lessons
my favorite part was when powder
took a man's hands and placed them on the deer
that the man had just shot
and the man was able to feel how the deer felt while it was dying

maybe if we could all feel that we would stop killing animals


peace

[vMike]

Originally Posted by funchy

I don't understand. I hear meat-eaters such as yourself defend their actions by saying "nature is cruel, therefore what's wrong with us being cruel" ; but then the same people say "but we're so much better than nature". Which is it?

Unlike an animal, if we're born with the ability to have a conscience, why not to use it?

Allow me to flip that idea:

If you adore meat so much, just go chase down your next meal, without benefit of gun or vehicle. Try to kill an adult steer using only your own strength, no weapons. Try to tear off bits of meat without claws or sharp teeth. Try to digest the uncooked flesh of a pig without falling sick. The point: meat in our diet today is an unnatural addition.

I ask myself if we're so superior to animals, why do we do these things? Why doesn't humankind respect life?

thanks for your points, I don't "adore" meat. If there was an indisputable evidence that eating meat harms my health I could probably give up. What I'm saying is calling meat eaters killers is just wrong. Nothing bad with eating meat.
We do respect life, there are conflicts here and there, but if you look at things on a global scale, only a tiny bit of about 7 billion people are involved in wars and fighting - compared to ancient times. There are laws that prevent violence and violence to domesticated animals as well.

I don't consider animals on the same level as us and so I don't see any reason why we should justify killing and eating them.

Now think about it, what if we stop killing and eating animals? Their numbers will grow significantly and soon certain animal species may dominate the ecosystem and even start attacking humans as their food supply diminishes - since we are going to eat fruits and vegetables much like they do - another thing to consider..

Either way tell you what, continuing this is probably pointless as everyone will just stay with their opinions. I do understand your points and think you're deluding yourself, you can probably say the same about my posts, so lets agree on that and let it be

That said I'm much more interested to know about the health aspects of eating meat as the thread originally was.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by vMike

Now think about it, what if we stop killing and eating animals? Their numbers will grow significantly and soon certain animal species may dominate the ecosystem and even start attacking humans as their food supply diminishes - since we are going to eat fruits and vegetables much like they do - another thing to consider..

Why do people keep trying to make this point? I really don't understand how anyone can think that this argument makes sense. I realize that this must be a shortcoming of my understanding of how things work.

But about 10 billion animals are killed for food every year. They are intensively breed and fed to keep their numbers up. If they weren't bred and they weren't fed they wouldn't exist. Farmers wouldn't keep cows they couldn't sell. They would stop breeding them, there would be fewer. Please explain further if there is something wrong with my logic, but I fail to understand yours.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by vMike

Now think about it, what if we stop killing and eating animals? Their numbers will grow significantly and soon certain animal species may dominate the ecosystem and even start attacking humans as their food supply diminishes - since we are going to eat fruits and vegetables much like they do - another thing to consider..

Actually there will probably be less animals if we are not raising them for food, the most numerous species on the planet right now (not counting insects/microbes/etc) is the chicken. No way that would be the case if they were not being eaten by us.

vMike, are you just concerned about the immediate health consequences of eating meat, or does the debate over whether raising animals causes undue pollution of air and water hold any sway with you?

Personally I agree that factory farming is a bad idea. Here in Central Texas it is possible for me to get grass-fed free-range beef, bison, chicken, pork, turkeys, eggs, and milk. I have visited some of the farms and I know the animals are well-treated. But it is sooo much more expensive, like $8/lb for ground beef or $60 for a turkey. Lately I have been slacking off on farmers markets and just going for the "organic" meat -- which is still about twice as expensive as the "regular" -- but I know this is an inferior product. Regular meats absolutely are bad for you, they are corn-fed and the omega3/omega6 fats balance is all out of whack, not to mention all the hormones and antibiotics.

[Raymond Burton]

I hear you Lauxa. I've ditched commercial meat and started adding flax and coconut oil to things along with my free range eggs to bring my omega 3to6 ratio back into balance. I feel warmer now throughout the day which is a positive indicator that things are functioning well.

[painofsalvation]

Originally Posted by vMike

Now think about it, what if we stop killing and eating animals? Their numbers will grow significantly and soon certain animal species may dominate the ecosystem and even start attacking humans as their food supply diminishes - since we are going to eat fruits and vegetables much like they do - another thing to consider..

Yeah right, I can see chickens and cows attacking humans and taking over the world.

Have you ever seen cows in the wild? The only reason they still exist is because they were domesticated to serve humankind. They are bred and fed because there is a huge market for it.

I can't believe this argument is still used. It only shows how people are so close minded about this subject that they don't even put a couple of minutes of thought in this. Yeah, maybe they'll realize something is wrong with their habits.