The Vegetarian Myth!

[Raymond Burton]

Funchy, I live in Canada. Do you know if when I buy organic grass fed beef from a local farm if they still ship it off?

I guess what I am asking is, Despite the fact of how the animal was raised, is it still killed the same as grocery/factory meat and then just shipped back to my local guy at the farmers market?

[InterfaceLeader]

Originally Posted by RUSSLA

yeh, or poor people could stop breeding like rabbits, that might solve the problem too.

Or rich people could stop living for so many years? That would mean they consume less!

Education - and contraception - costs money. And resources.

Poor people often have no support in their old age, and need to be sure of having a group of younger relatives that can take care of them.

We are already past tipping point anyway - even if everyone stopped having children, today, we would still not have enough meat to go around to everyone.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by funchy

Comparative anatomy: are humans more like carnivores or herbivores?
[...]
source:

The Comparative Anatomy of Eating

This article seems highly suss to me.

Firstly, it indicates that the traits of omnivores are almost identical to carnivores. That seems very unlikely.

Secondly, omnivore is a very broad category (covering diets from primarily meat-eating to primarily herbivorous) that I doubt can be so neatly pigeonholed. According to these tables, Chimpanzees are herbivorous. They're not.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

So

This is no way to start a sentence. Please use proper English (British English if at all possible).

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

So here is the deal, let me start by saying I completely support everyone having the right to choose what they eat and why they eat it - for I feel like I deserve the same respect from others.

No.

That's like saying, "I support everyone having the right not to kill - so I deserve the respect to kill"

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

My belief is most vegetarians I have worked with in the past have been no healthier than the people eating all the poisonous meat and processed dairy products.

That's amazing. How did you develop that gift which enables you to look at a person and analyse their cardio-vascular health and the health of their veins and vital organs?

Oh you didn't? So your statement that the vegans are no healthier than omnivores is based on what?


......I could go on, but your post is nonsense.

[air nomad]

*face-palm/sigh*
@steven- even if the other person is wrong (not saying that you are, Bailey), you do not have the right of back-handing him in the face.(metaphorically speaking of course)

Originally Posted by Stephen

No.

That's like saying, "I support everyone having the right not to kill - so I deserve the respect to kill"


That's amazing. How did you develop that gift which enables you to look at a person and analyse their cardio-vascular health and the health of their veins and vital organs?

Oh you didn't? So your statement that the vegans are no healthier than omnivores is based on what?


......I could go on, but your post is nonsense.

[bluedragon]

But what about fish? Especially ocean fish - I guess they are living a very natural life. Or even the salmons, as long as they are not grown in special aquariums, but fished in the rivers or in the breeding lakes.

Originally Posted by Stephen

That's like saying, "I support everyone having the right not to kill - so I deserve the respect to kill"
......I could go on, but your post is nonsense.

I do respect everyone's right to kill. Even if I would dedicate my life to teaching people about healing, compassion, self improvement - which naturally leads to a lack of need to kill, I still don't consider that people who kill are unacceptable for the Universe and they should just be ashamed they exist and disappear. I wouldn't want them to kill anyone and I would protect myself and anyone in danger, but I do not consider I possess the Truth concerning killing.
Anyway, if darkworkers (for whom killing is not something negative, but merely a possible tool) are welcome on these forums, then meat eaters should not be accused of advocating killing either, especially since they only kill animals for food, not people... I hope

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Raymond Burton

Funchy, I live in Canada. Do you know if when I buy organic grass fed beef from a local farm if they still ship it off?

I do not know the procedures and regulations concerning beef in canada. I would assume it's a similar system where all meat put up for sale must be processed at an approved, inspected processing plant. But I really cannot say??

I guess what I am asking is, Despite the fact of how the animal was raised, is it still killed the same as grocery/factory meat and then just shipped back to my local guy at the farmers market?

Here in the US, it would have to be USDA inspected to be legally sold to the public. This means going through a USDA processing facility and USDA meat grading. The only exception is if you for example brought your own pig or deer in to be butchered, and in that situation they cannot sell the meat to anyone else; it's intended for the consumption of the animal owner. (am i making sense?)

In theory a farm can do its own in-house USDA-approved processing, but this is usually cost prohibitive unless it's a really large operation. And once you get into the really large farms, we're back to the quality & welfare problems.

[Raymond Burton]

Thanks Funchy, that gives me a few more things to think about and check into. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

But what about fish? Especially ocean fish - I guess they are living a very natural life.

I'd agree that they live a more natural life, especially the deeper ocean ones which aren't subjected to the pollution/contaminant problems. However, I find it disturbing that commercial fishing puts out a massive net that kills everything ensnared in it. Most measurements put the wasted dead around 90% but this site estimates it's 98% dead & discarded for every fish they can bring to market:
Fishing For Freedom

So in that sense, it's not sustainable for the ecosystem. Drag nets destroy reefs and underwater refuges. Commercial nets empty a mile of the ocean of fish at a time. The fish that aren't caught in the net are stressed and left with depleted food.

Whole ecosystems are shattered. Fish stocks can't recover. And with everyone advocating the health benefits of fish, the whole living ocean just can't keep up.
Salt-Water Fish Extinction Seen By 2048, Study By Ecologists, Economists Predicts Collapse of World Ocean Ecology - CBS News
CANADIAN ATLANTIC FISHERIES COLLAPSE
Researchers project collapse of seafood species

Or even the salmons, as long as they are not grown in special aquariums, but fished in the rivers or in the breeding lakes.

American salmon has been over-fished to the point where populations are entirely collapsing. 2008 marked a complete ban on west-coast salmon fishing from CA to Oregon:
Salmon fishing closed for California, Oregon
CDNN :: Overhunting Caused Mass Marine Life Extinction

If you're buy salmon is either one of the few straggling groups left around the Canada or Alaska coast. Or it's farmed, which some are concerned have a higher contaminant (eg mercury) content than wild.
Some of the contaminants found in farmed salmon

I'd like you to consider this: every time you remove an entire species out of an ecosystem, the animals it kept in check and the animals that fed on it are now thrown way out of balance. For example, when fishery farms empty areas of the sea of tiny fish such as herring to feed to their captive farmed fish, they now starve the local larger fish out of a food source. In my area horseshoe crabs are being used up as a cheap bait source and depleted in massive numbers. The result was shorebirds were being pushed to endangered levels because they depend completely on the eggs horseshoe crabs lay in beach sand. Every population of seafood we take in large numbers as our own means some group of fish, sea life, or sea bird suffers.

So the question is how much can we empty the oceans of life before we say the small number of remaining fish aren't living much of a natural life?

[supertom]

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. "
— abraham lincoln

I think most people here are suffering from their subconscious mind, they think vege diet is weak and hence they become weak, but also they cant think for themselves, trying to be smart by putting forth agruments which just try to hide the fact that they want to fit in with the crowd and dont want to give it up. anyway have fun with your cancer and medical pills.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by supertom

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. "
— abraham lincoln

I think most people here are suffering from their subconscious mind, they think vege diet is weak and hence they become weak, but also they cant think for themselves, trying to be smart by putting forth agruments which just try to hide the fact that they want to fit in with the crowd and dont want to give it up. anyway have fun with your cancer and medical pills.

Nice one

[Cassio]

It's amazing the lengths people will go to justify their addictions.

You know, eating meat is not illegal (unfortunately), so you don't need to go around telling people your excuses for doing so.

Why don't you read the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada position on the subject instead of coming up with your theories based on nothing but your own attachment to meat?

[jokerman]

Oh God I love meat!!! I would KILL for meat.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by jokerman

Oh God I love meat!!! I would KILL for meat.

And to think: some people deny meat is addictive.

[lasti]

Since I'm vegetarian I haven't been sick once, I don't have digestion problems anymore, I have more energy, and I'm a lot more compassionate and happier.
That's enough reasons for me to stay away from meat.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by Cassio

It's amazing the lengths people will go to justify their addictions.

Definitely! I know a lot of people who seem even to be proud of their addictions.

[eydimork]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

On a side note I am not naive to the fact that the theory of a vegetarian diet holds weight in the argument in terms of health and prevention of disease.

I think a problem here is the assumption that 'vegetarianism' a diet. It is not. It is a descriptive attribute of a great number of diets, much like GI is not a diet but a method for measuring the effect of carbohydrates on blood glucose levels.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

Yes they may not agree with the way we treat and raise many of the animals in the U.S and or other countries, but this also does not mean that it is all or nothing. There are plenty of farmers who raise animals humanely and provide the animal with a diet that they are designed to eat by Mother Nature.

Another false assumption here. Vegetarianism isn't necessarily a political choice. I eat 'vegan' (no animal proteins of any kind) 9 days out of 10, but I also wear leather pants and own a fur coat.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

When we look at the statistics of heart disease and cancer we never bother to look at the details of the study. We need to wake up. So many people are being brain washed into thinking the meat is what is killing us. Yes it is, but not all of it. The fast food meat we feed our kids is killing them and us. So is almost every piece of meat we get our hands on. But not the free-range, grass-fed beef from the local farmer that our bodies are designed to eat and thrive off of!

Your body is not designed to eat and thrive off beef, mutton and the like. Sheep and pigs have been domesticated for 11,000 years (the genus homo is 2.4 million years old, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is 250,000 years old), and unless your ancestors are Near Eastern, you're still a few thousand years behind. Cattle was domesticated 9,000 years ago, and again, unless you're Near Eastern in ancestry, your ancestors are a few thousand years behind.

I'm not saying eating domesticated meat will necessarily harm you, but there is no way humans were designed to eat these things.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

So here is the deal if we look at a simple fact of what we had to eat 10,000 years ago.

10,000 years ago is an evolutionary blink of an eye. If that.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

It would not be a vegan diet with soy milk and grains. There were no soy, wheat, corn or any grain crops. We did not even domesticate animals at this point. So therefore we were not even drinking milk or any other processed dairy crap foods you can think of.

Actually, many animals were domesticated at that point. Milk may have been introduced. The earliest evidence for dairy products in Europe stretches back 7,000 years, but the Near East will no doubt have an earlier date. It doesn't matter much, though, because it's not important on an evolutionary scale.

Originally Posted by ChaosKiwi

I agree with Ryan Bailey, I think many vegetarians think eating that way is a magical way to being healthier. People on vegetarian diets can be just as unhealthy as the rest of us. That being said they can be supreme models of health as well.

Indeed. Unfortunately, lack of information runs rampant in all groups. It's just as easy to eat crap in a vegetarian mode as it is in an omnivorous mode. Good intentions don't get you very far when it comes to diets.

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Here's the thing. We compare ourselves to apes and how they only eat vegetables, but there have been reports of them hunting small animals as a group. I think we do need some amount of healthy animal products in our diet.

Our closest relatives amongst the apes (chimpanzees and bonobos) are opportunistic omnivores. They eat termites and the like, but they also hunt the occasional squirrel or seize upon a helpless baby antelope. They do not hunt big game or go on organised group hunts. 98% of the time, they eat plant matter.

I'm not saying it is right to compare ourselves entirely to our closest relatives, because we are still very different from them, but I wanted to clear that up so that no one misinterprets your (quite correct) information.





Disclaimer: eydimork is an 'opportunistic omnivore'. If you buy her a steak, she'll eat it (bloody, please!). She eats 'vegan' (not tofu or processed meat substitutes) 9 days out of 10, which includes whole grains and all meals cooked from scratch. She doesn't buy anything refined or with added sugars. On the 10th day she likes to eat seafood or cheese. These are the biases with which this response have been thought up.

[vMike]

I agree with the OP.

Mother Nature is a cruel ♥♥♥♥♥, go watch national geographic, see how a lion rips apart an antelope and then eats it alive with the insides first, or how a colony of ants attacks a colony of termites, paralyze them with their poisonous stings and drag them back as stacks of food.

We shouldn't try to apply our humanity to the animal world. Nothing bad in eating meat, it's only natural. I can't argue about the health benefits, but all those trying to say eating meat is somehow immoral or inhuman - it's just another of those self limiting beliefs.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by vMike

I agree with the OP.

Mother Nature is a cruel ♥♥♥♥♥, go watch national geographic, see how a lion rips apart an antelope and then eats it alive with the insides first, or how a colony of ants attacks a colony of termites, paralyze them with their poisonous stings and drag them back as stacks of food.

We shouldn't try to apply our humanity to the animal world. Nothing bad in eating meat, it's only natural. I can't argue about the health benefits, but all those trying to say eating meat is somehow immoral or inhuman - it's just another of those self limiting beliefs.

I'd say that the limiting belief is that animals are less than human. They aren't human, but they are all equally as evolved, intricate, beautiful. The limiting belief here is that there is some inherent disconnect and power relationship that allows humans to eat their equals indiscriminately.

The Difference between you and a lion is that the lion respects his prey. He knows how much work it takes to take down a living mammal. But the real test is the net effect of carnivorous lifestyle. A lion hunts and eats the sickest of a population. Nothing looks tastier to a lion than a diseased, limping, weak, or stupid animal. And by weeding out these members the lion by predation serves to improve the prey species. Humans are notorious for destroying populations of animals wherever it goes. Humans almost always go after the biggest, strongest, healthiest and smartest first. We destroy the strong genes in wild populations and result in the degradation of the species (funny how these criteria applied to plants have the opposite effect). Now in modern times we have destroyed anything close to natural. Nothing about your trip to KFC is natural.

You serve no one by holding onto your limiting beliefs that animals are less than human. You hurt yourself, you hurt the prey species, and you hurt the planet. This is no judgment, i am far from perfect, however if we are talking about limiting beliefs here I think we should reveal the whole truth. The understanding of animal products effects on human health, the equality of all living being, and the effects of our predation on the prey species are all empowering. I am empowered to make the choice, in full knowledge of it's implications.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by funchy

Whole ecosystems are shattered. Fish stocks can't recover. And with everyone advocating the health benefits of fish, the whole living ocean just can't keep up.

That's awful... Let's save the fish! With so many companies damaging nature, it's hard to know what to do anymore... Maybe working on changing mentalities is more effective, especially the mentality that you can't make money without doing damage, harming someone or tricking a lot of people.

Originally Posted by funchy

Most measurements put the wasted dead around 90% but this site estimates it's 98% dead & discarded for every fish they can bring to market:

Talking about personal effectiveness... Throwing away 98% of the fish seems like a terribly ineffective job to me. Even if it doesn't directly affect their profits.

[vMike]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

I'd say that the limiting belief is that animals are less than human. They aren't human, but they are all equally as evolved, intricate, beautiful. The limiting belief here is that there is some inherent disconnect and power relationship that allows humans to eat their equals indiscriminately.

Humans are definitely superior and the animals are nowhere as evolved as humans.
Animals act mostly based on instincts, they aren't capable of sentient thoughts, imagination, of self-conscience.
Lion doesn't know what respect it, weaker prey is just easier to catch.

[Joeschmoe]

I didn't say a lion knows what respect is. I said that it respects it's food. Whether through design or through intelligence (which is one aspect of design) it doesn't matter. Again, you have the limiting belief that other creatures on this earth are less evolved.

That belief is objectively false. All creatures on earth are equally evolved. Assuming we have a single origin, or close to it. Every creature on earth has been here evolving for 4 billion years. They are all equally well adapted to their environment. Intelligence, which you seem to be comparing every creature to, is only one tool, and in some cases a minor tool. If I lion could think I'm sure it would think that humans are less evolved. I mean, we move so slowly and our teeth and and claws are so dull, we must be less evolved than a lion. Our sense of smell is so weak, we must be less evolved than a dog, and our eyes are so bad we must be less evolved than an eagle, and on and on.

I'm not saying don't eat meat. I'm saying be respectful of your food. Use that highly evolved intelligence and think about where it comes from and the effect it has on the world, the species and you. Eat meat if you like, but be honest about it.

[vMike]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

Intelligence, which you seem to be comparing every creature to, is only one tool, and in some cases a minor tool. If I lion could think I'm sure it would think that humans are less evolved.

Intelligence is the most important tool, it's what helped humans survive and flourish throughout the earth and it's the peak of evolution on this planet.
Of course based on your definition of being evolved you may claim otherwise, but evolution is the survival of the fittest and we clearly are.

[Joeschmoe]

There are more microbes in your gut then there are people in the world, so I'd say we're not first by a long shot.

[painofsalvation]

Originally Posted by vMike

Humans are definitely superior and the animals are nowhere as evolved as humans.

Animals have abilities you could never dream of experiencing, even with the most current technologies.

Also, if being "superior" gives us the right to kill, then I could exploit and kill you if I consider myself smarter than you.

Originally Posted by vMike

Lion doesn't know what respect it, weaker prey is just easier to catch.

Lions also kill offsprings of a female lion before coupling with her: YouTube - Lion killing cubs

Does that mean we should go around killing babies in order to couple with their mothers?

Originally Posted by vMike

Animals act mostly based on instincts, they aren't capable of sentient thoughts, imagination, of self-conscience.

If you think animals don't have thoughts, interests, desires, self-conscience, you have obviously never been around a dog or a cat.

Although animals and humans are clearly different, they are like us in some important aspects. We both suffer, we both are sentient, we both have desires (freedom, comfort, survival, water, food, avoidance of pain, etc). That's why, in those regards, we should grant them equal moral consideration.

If we were in 1850, you would probably be fighting for your right to own slaves and would be claiming that this is a "necessary evil", just like the slavery proponents used to do at that time.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by vMike

Intelligence is the most important tool, it's what helped humans survive and flourish throughout the earth and it's the peak of evolution on this planet.
Of course based on your definition of being evolved you may claim otherwise, but evolution is the survival of the fittest and we clearly are.

no consciousness is the most important tool

our intelligence might get us killed

[vMike]

Originally Posted by painofsalvation

If you think animals don't have thoughts, interests, desires, self-conscience, you have obviously never been around a dog or a cat.

Again, animals have instincts, habits, not clear thoughts, or desires and definitely not self-conscience as we do. They are not capable of imagination. And that's been proven scientifically. Sure they can do a bunch of stuff, have sharp teeth and can run really fast. But they spend their whole day on basic needs like food, security, building a shelter and mating.

Also, if being "superior" gives us the right to kill, then I could exploit and kill you if I consider myself smarter than you.

Does that mean we should go around killing babies in order to couple with their mothers?

What does this have to do with our superiority over animals? People have morals, rules and extremely complicated social structures. This is what makes us human, we govern our own lives and live in peace with each other (well, mostly). We choose to live our own way and pursue our goals and ideals, which may be different of what our parents, society and nature have planned for us. We don't need to live based on instincts developed by millions of years of evolution, but rather make our own fate.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by funchy

We could literally end all world famine: just stop throwing food to animals to eat and instead safely deliver it to 3rd world nations. Livestock feed is greatly subsidized by US taxpayers anyway, so why not let taxpayers decide where it goes? It saddens me to know American pigs gorge on cheap subsided food but kids in Africa and parts of Asia are dying from malnutrition.

I heard recently that most livestock feed is made from GMO corn that is very hardy but tastes absolutely terrible. Not really anything suitable for human consumption. That's just a random fact and not an argument to eat the meat raised on such stuff.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I also have not come across any religion or culture no matter how strict that has not had some form of meat or animal product in it.

I think the closest is Jainism.

Compassion for all life, both human and non-human, is central to Jainism. Human life is valued as a unique, rare opportunity to reach enlightenment. To kill any person, no matter their crime, is considered unimaginably abhorrent. It is the only religion that requires monks and laity, from all its sects and traditions, to be vegetarian.

History suggests that various strains of Hinduism became vegetarian due to strong Jain influences.[27]. Jains run animal shelters all over India. For example, Delhi has a bird hospital run by Jains. Every city and town in Bundelkhand has animal shelters run by Jains where all manner of animals are sheltered, even though the shelter is generally known as a Gaushala ("sacred cow").

Jainism's stance on nonviolence goes far beyond vegetarianism. Jains refuse food obtained with unnecessary cruelty. Many practice a lifestyle similar to veganism, due to the violence of modern dairy farms, and others exclude root vegetables from their diets to preserve the lives of these plants.[28] Potatoes, garlic and onions in particular are avoided by Jains.[29]. Devout Jains do not eat, drink, or travel after sunset, and prefer to drink water that is boiled and then cooled to room temperature.[citation needed] Many Jains abstain from eating green vegetables and root vegetables one day each week. The particular day, determined by the lunar calendar is Ashtami (eighth day of the lunar month), New Moon, the second Ashtami and the Full Moon night.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I think the closest is Jainism.

hmmm interesting