Veganism in a subjective reality

[Dolazy]

If I understood the articles about subjective reality correctly, then veganism will only be beneficial if you believe it to be. There would be no objective reason to believe that being vegan is healthier than being a meat eater. Which lifestyle is healthier would be 100% dependent on your own beliefs.

So I wonder if it makes sense to choose to live vegan if you also believe in a subjective reality?

Anyone feel free to share your thoughts, I am eager to learn about them.

Francis

[Tripp444]

The same thought occurred to me too! I am anxious to see what people have to say on this subject. Personally, I'd like to think that because I know I can create whatever kind of experience I want, then it shouldn't matter what I put into my body, as long as I THINK it doesn't matter.... Or is that wishful thinking?

[Matt]

It seems to me that you would have to have a fairly strong hold on subjective reality to break the rules of the physical objective reality. Changing beliefs isn't as simple as changing your mind.

Also, consider that a consciousness centered on love, peace and joy would likely avoid supporting the pain/suffering of animals.

That's my take on it. I'll admit I don't have a firm grasp of subjective reality, though. So, anyone else, feel free to correct me.

[toasterwater]

Im a little sketchy on the idea of a subjective reality, but from what i understand- from what i have learned from Steve's site- If the universe is truly a subjective reality, then you only have to believe something to be true in order for it to be true. But this means that you have to whole heartedly- or rather whole mindedly, believe it. By this thinking, if you have even the slightest belief that eating meat can have a negative effect on your health, then it will. This means that all of the info you have learned about meat eating- including "facts" and statistics about cholesterol, digestion, diseases, etc., would have to be unlearned, so to speak. Subjectively speaking, you cannot beleive, or "know", that eating greasy pork and red meat products causes high cholesterol, energy reducing digestive processes, etc. and also be able to eat these foods without falling victim to those consequences. For me, this would mean erasing all of my knowledge of nutrition, and digestive anatomy ( i may have just made up the term "digestive anatomy" ) and starting over with a fresh, blank brain- like a baby. Now... because i dont believe that to be possible... a subjective reality will not allow me to do it- ugh, what a catch 22 we have on our hands!

[Dolazy]

So, according to the subjective reality theory, my current core beliefs about health are the most accurate ones. If I want to become more healthy then I need to live more in accordance to what I believe to be a healthy lifestyle.

This is tricky, because I have been exposed to conflicting opinions on what is healthy. Some claim veganism is healthier others say that our bodies really need meat. This means my beliefs will be mixed as well.

Some might say that the best way to resolve this conflict is to try for yourself. I could do a 30 day trial on veganism and observe the results.

But then again, won't the results only be the manifestation of the beliefs I currently have?

[kljsadfhklj]

OK, that's my opinion:

If you are, for example, a kid, and you don't know where the meat comes from and you just eat it and believe it's awesome and it'll make you healthy and etc. then probably it will. But then you 'grow up' and you learn that animals are killed and, before that, have to go trough horrible lifes.. Then things change a little.

For the subjective reality thing to work you have to be aware that you're not just your physical body. The meat you eat, in fact, is a part of you. So.. does it make sense to make a part of you (the cows) have a very unpleasant life, be killed and cut in pieces and and still want the other part of you (the human) to be healthy?

Point is, you can be healthy eating meat, but just to a certain extent, as you have to be unaware of a lot of things or deny a huge part of yourself (the "I don't want to cause suffering to others" part) to do so. This conflict/lack-of-awareness will eventually disrupt your 'mental harmony' and it's solution will lead you to stop killing (eating?).

So, that's it. Just my opinion, anyways. Excuse me for my english (and for having to type in my mom's qwerty keyboard (I'm used to dvorak))

[Dolazy]

Originally Posted by Matt

It seems to me that you would have to have a fairly strong hold on subjective reality to break the rules of the physical objective reality. Changing beliefs isn't as simple as changing your mind.

I could be wrong, but doesn't the subjective reality theory say that there is no such thing as a physical objective reality?

[Brendon Colby]

I think if you really believe that meat is murder, cancerous, unhealthy etc. then that's the reality that will manifest for you. When I went vegan for two months, I experienced too many contradictions outside and inside myself that made staying vegan extremely disempowering for me. For now, my core beliefs about food are about eating in moderation, listening to my body, and working out reasonably. I went from external reference to internal reference out of extreme suffering (i.e. from one unhappy diet to another). There are just too many people with their own ideas about diet and exercise. You ask 500 people you get 502 responses. I think that suggests subjective reality right there!

[Dolazy]

Originally Posted by kljsadfhklj

OK, that's my opinion:

If you are, for example, a kid, and you don't know where the meat comes from and you just eat it and believe it's awesome and it'll make you healthy and etc. then probably it will. But then you 'grow up' and you learn that animals are killed and, before that, have to go trough horrible lifes.. Then things change a little.

For the subjective reality thing to work you have to be aware that you're not just your physical body. The meat you eat, in fact, is a part of you. So.. does it make sense to make a part of you (the cows) have a very unpleasant life, be killed and cut in pieces and and still want the other part of you (the human) to be healthy?

Point is, you can be healthy eating meat, but just to a certain extent, as you have to be unaware of a lot of things or deny a huge part of yourself (the "I don't want to cause suffering to others" part) to do so. This conflict/lack-of-awareness will eventually disrupt your 'mental harmony' and it's solution will lead you to stop killing (eating?).

So, that's it. Just my opinion, anyways. Excuse me for my english (and for having to type in my mom's qwerty keyboard (I'm used to dvorak))

Hey that's a pretty strong answer!

From this I get that the choice of veganism should happen only after one has reached a certain level of awareness. If you switch too early (when your beliefs are still conflicting) then the results will be conflicting as well.

Now but if all other animals are also part of yourself, and animals are eating each other, does that mean that you are still causing suffering in animals? Does that mean that you can reach such a high a level of awareness where even animals will stop eating other animals?

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Now but if all other animals are also part of yourself, and animals are eating each other, does that mean that you are still causing suffering in animals? Does that mean that you can reach such a high a level of awareness where even animals will stop eating other animals?

This does become a catch-22 of sorts, doesn't it!

Here's my take: as stated previously, the it's difficult to change core beliefs, especially things you've been taught and have accepted for a long, long time. For me, it seems perfectly natural and just the way the world works that carnivorous animals eat other animals. If the alternative for them is starving, well...you would have to develop a belief system that avoided that outcome somehow. Maybe you'd have to accept the belief that carnivores could become herbivores, or something.

The key thing for me is that humans don't cause suffering by not eating animals, while other animals might. (If carnivores don't eat animals, then there might be overpopulation problems, etc.) But that, of course, is just a belief, too--albeit a very pervasive one.

[DWarrior]

If you've been an omnivore all your life, then I'd imagine you'd really have to try veganism if you wanted to see the difference. If you did research on veganism, you'd find that it's scientifically proven to be healthier than omnivorism. So in order for you to will omnivorism to yield as much energy as veganism, you'd have to change the physics of eating, which would be very difficult as they tie in with all the other functions of the universe.

Just a thought, I haven't done any extensive research on veganism or subjective reality.

[Dolazy]

Originally Posted by JeffS

Here's my take: as stated previously, the it's difficult to change core beliefs, especially things you've been taught and have accepted for a long, long time. For me, it seems perfectly natural and just the way the world works that carnivorous animals eat other animals. If the alternative for them is starving, well...you would have to develop a belief system that avoided that outcome somehow. Maybe you'd have to accept the belief that carnivores could become herbivores, or something.

Hey I'm just thinking something funny. Christians (creationists) believe that in the beginning (when God created earth) animals lived in peaceful harmony with each other. They only started to kill and eat each other after the sin of Adam and Eve.

Could this be meaningful for this discussion?

[kljsadfhklj]

Hi, I'm a little out of tune now, but I'll try to explain..

First, if you're in conflict with yourself and you eat or not meat, you're still in conflict with yourself. So, the point is not that you can't stop eating meat until you've solved your conflicts, it is that going vegetarian is a way to solve one of these conflicts. Like this: if you are evil and go vegetarian (Hitler ), you are still evil. If you are very loving and not vegetarian, when you become aware that killing animals is not a very loving thing you'll go vegetarian.

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Now but if all other animals are also part of yourself, and animals are eating each other, does that mean that you are still causing suffering in animals?

Like I said with the "when you were a kid" metaphor, you aren't causing harm on purpose if you're not aware of what you're doing,so it's not that bad, but it'll eventually pop up in front of you and you'll have a decision to make about the subject. I don't know 'bout your ideas on animal consciousness, but I believe they'll eventually become aware of it and decide what to do (obviously it won't happen when in a carnivore body).

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Does that mean that you can reach such a high a level of awareness where even animals will stop eating other animals?

They won't stop eating each other, but you'll learn to see it differently and love it the way it is. If your child does something to see how it's like (the child is unaware) and it hurts you, it's not evil, it's unawareness. The same happens when animals follow their instincts. They do it because they do it, they're not aware of all that is happening as a consequence of their instincts.

First you love what is directly good to you, then you love all that comes from a good intent, then you learn to love all that is, good and evil (the most difficult part, in my opinion).

OK, that's it. Again, it's just my opinion. I might be completely wrong

(And I'm moving and there's no internet at my new house, so I might take a week to answer anything)

[Dolazy]

Thanks for your reply kljsadfhklj (quite a name!)

Originally Posted by kljsadfhklj

They won't stop eating each other, but you'll learn to see it differently and love it the way it is.

Are you taking in account that I'm discussing veganism in the context of subjective reality? You seem to suggest that animals eating each other is something that is not subjected to my beliefs. But if it is not subjective then it is objective, which implies that there would be certain parts about reality that are objective, which implies that reality would be not entirely subjective.

I hope I still make sense to you all...

[MartialDev]

Veganism may have its benefits, but physical health is surely not among them. Tell a Ayurvedic or TCM doctor you went vegan for health: they just might laugh at you!

[Dan.Linehan]

I love the way you think DoLazy. Let me answer some of these questions as I understand things:

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Some might say that the best way to resolve this conflict is to try for yourself. I could do a 30 day trial on veganism and observe the results.

But then again, won't the results only be the manifestation of the beliefs I currently have?

Maybe, but you apparently believe Steve is onto some things - so those will prolly be the results you get.

Originally Posted by Dolazy

I could be wrong, but doesn't the subjective reality theory say that there is no such thing as a physical objective reality?

You spent years manifesting a reality where things operate according to certain physical laws. It would take a lot of time to unmanifest those "laws." So, for all intents and purposes there is a physical objective universe that you created.

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Hey I'm just thinking something funny. Christians (creationists) believe that in the beginning (when God created earth) animals lived in peaceful harmony with each other. They only started to kill and eat each other after the sin of Adam and Eve.

Could this be meaningful for this discussion?

Certain animals are carnivores, humans are herbavores. See the anatomy here.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Dolazy

I could be wrong, but doesn't the subjective reality theory say that there is no such thing as a physical objective reality?

My point was that you have to fully believe subjective reality. You have lived X number of years in an objective reality, it's possible that while you consciously want to believe in a subjective reality and operate at a high level of conscious you have doubts in the back of your mind from past beliefs.

I guess my point is that it would be hard to let go everything you "know" from the past and immediately immerse yourself in this subjective reality. Steve certainly went through a long, well-thought out and well-tested journey to achieve this state.

I have not reached a point where I can fully embrace a subjective reality (yet). I am still testing and challenging my own beliefs and refining myself as I go along. It is an eventual goal of mine to reach a point where I can begin testing/experiencing a subjective reality but it is a journey for me; not an instantaneous epiphany where all my beliefs suddenly change.

A way to picture my interpretation of it is to visualize a vertical gradient with objective reality on one end and subjective reality on the other. In order to break some hard physical laws that exist in the objective reality you need to be all the way in the dark part of the gradient on the subjective reality end of the spectrum, with no shades of your beliefs from your objective reality left over.

I hope that helps explain my point better.

[escapee]

44 reason to be a vegan , just take this as a reference, no offense if you think some of them are plain wrong and evil .

1. Vegan diets offer disease protection because of lower cholesterol and animal protein and higher folates, antioxidant vitamins and plant nutrients.

2. Vegans are less likely to suffer strokes caused by coronary artery disease.

3. 95% of all food poisoning comes from meat and animal products.

4. Vegans have half to three-quarters of the risk of dying of heart disease compared to meat eaters.

5. Vegans often live longer and suffer less from several chronic diseases.

6. Vegans have excellent health. Protein is not a limiting factor.

7. Zinc levels are normal in vegans.

8. New research suggests that dementia may be linked to a BSE-like 'prion' found in some meat.

9. Vegans have lower rates of obesity, coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, large bowel disorders, cancers and gallstones.

10. Vegan diets have been successful in arresting and reversing coronary heart disease.

11. A vegan diet can reduce cholesterol levels (cholesterol is linked to heart disease - fruit and vegetables contain none).

12. Vegans are no more likely to suffer anaemia than meat eaters.

13. Antioxidants protect against more than 60 diseases. Found mostly in fruit and vegetables.

14. Vegans have higher intakes of folic acid than omnivores.

15. Diabetes is much less likely to be a cause of death in vegans.

16. Hypertension (high blood pressure) in vegans is one third to one half that of meat eaters.

17. The amount of veg protein fed to the US beef herd would feed almost the entire populations of India and China - two billion people.

18. A vegan diet meets all the nutritional needs of infants and adolescents.

19. 35% of the world's people can be fed on a meat-based diet. A plant diet could feed everyone.

20. Animal faeces are a major cause of acid rain - in Holland and Belgium, the main cause.

21. Deserts spread every year - by an area the size of England and Scotland. Livestock grazing is the main cause.

22. Rain forests are still being felled to graze hamburger cattle. Going vegan saves one acre of forest every year.

23. The world's 17 major fisheries are on the point of collapse because of over-fishing.

24. On irrigated land, 1lb of beef uses 5,214 gallons.

25. Disease, dirt and crowding, antibiotics and chemical growth enhancers - that's the five-month life of most pigs.

26. 24% of dairy cows are pregnant when slaughtered - many nearing full term.

27. Calves are taken from their mothers a day or two after birth. Males are usually killed.

28. Amount of grain needed to end extreme hunger - 40 million tonnes. Amount of grain fed to animals in the West - 540 million tonnes.

29. Most ducks are factory farmed in crowded sheds. They never see daylight or swim in water.

30. The majority of calves, lambs and pigs are conscious when their throats are cut.

31. Nearly all 650 million UK chickens are fed antibiotics daily. 72 million die from disease.

32. 90% of the UK's animal feed protein concentrates comes from poor countries - often those where children die from starvation.

33. If Britain went vegan, less than quarter the farm land would be needed.

34. More than 90% of all agricultural land in Britain is used to feed animals.

35. Every year in Britain, one billion gallons of pesticides are used - 200 chemicals. 50 suspected of causing cancer.

36. Farmed animals rank second in causing global warming. Reason - methane from prolific farting and belching.

37. Up to one fifth of chickens may be fully conscious when they enter the scalding tank to loosen their feathers.

38. Four-fifths of broiler chickens (killed for meat) have broken bones and deformed feet, legs and other bone deformities.

39. 20% of lambs die from cold, disease and starvation.

40. 80% of all eggs come from battery hens - kept five to a cage no bigger than a microwave oven.

41. More than 90% of all agricultural land in Britain is used to feed animals.

42. Broiler sheds may contain up to 50,000 birds - each one allowed a space the size of a telephone directory.

43. 50% of all piglets have their teeth crushed and tails cut off without anaesthetics.

44. 25% of turkeys are in chronic pain because of swollen joints - 70% of big birds.

I believe we can heal our mother earth by changing to predominantly plant based diet.

[escapee]

The Spec scan shows that a simple dietary change opens up artery and reverses heart disease

Fleming then put them all on a low saturated fat, high carbohydrate diet--a whole foods vegetarian diet--the kind that has been proven to not only stop heart disease, but to in some cases actually reverse it, opening up clogged arteries.[375] A year later the echocardiograms and SPECT scans were repeated. By that time, however, 10 of his patients had, unbeknownst to him, jumped on the low carb bandwagon and begun following the Atkins Diet or Atkins-like diets. All of a sudden, Dr. Fleming had an unparalleled research opportunity dropped in his lap. Here he had extensive imaging of 10 people following a low carb diet and 16 following a high carb diet. What would their hearts look like at the end of the year? We can talk about risk factors all we want, but compared to the high carb group, did the coronary heart disease of the patients following the Atkins Diet improve, worsen, or stay the same?

Those sticking to the whole-foods vegetarian diet showed a reversal of their heart disease as expected. Their partially-clogged arteries literally got cleaned out, and blood flow to their hearts through their coronary arteries increased 40%. What happened to those who abandoned the high carb diet and switched over to the Atkins Diet, chowing down on bunless cheeseburgers? Their condition significantly worsened. All that saturated fat and cholesterol in their diet clogged their arteries further--the blood flow to their hearts was cut 40%. Thus, the only study on the Atkins Diet to actually measure arterial blood flow showed widespread acceptance of a high saturated fat diet like Atkins could be heralding a future epidemic of fatal heart attacks.[521] Validation that "If you were trying to damage your heart," wrote the Center for Science in the Public Interest, "you couldn't do much better than to eat a cheeseburger."[376] Maybe filet mignon doesn't work after all

[Stolper]

The following is an excerpt from an Abraham-Hicks (Jerry and Esther Hicks) recording and I think it offers an interesting view regarding diet and subjective reality. This is an answer to a question during a live seminar. I have just quickly transcribed it from a sound recording and that is why the English/grammar is not that great.

“…You move through your world and the experts say to you, if you eat this food, which contains this fat, you will be fat. And you hear it and you hear it and you hear it. Then when you sit to eat and you have awareness of that fat in that food, what is your dominant vibration? This will make me fat… I can’t eat this and be slender… this will make me fat. Until that becomes your dominant vibration. Then you are faced with a dilemma. You’ve either got to be fat and eat it or you have to not eat it. Those are your choices when that has become your dominant vibration. And then you read a book about carbohydrates and they say; these carbohydrates will make you fat. And so, most of the food that you are eating, you say this contains preservatives; this is not good for me. This has fat; this is not good for me. This has carbohydrates – too many; this is not good for me. And so, your dominant vibration about food is: this is not good for me; I cannot be the way I want to be as I am eating this and then you compound it every time you eat – which is frequent.”

“So what we are suggesting is that everything is about alignment of energy within you. So if you have convinced yourself that this action is opposite of the result you want and you don’t take the action, you can get the result you want. If you take the action that you believe, because you have practiced it and have made it your dominant vibration, is counter to what you desire then the results that you live will be counter to what you desire. And then you say, I cannot live the way I want to live. And we say, it isn’t about action, it’s about vibration. It’s about the alignment of thought energy.”

“So If we were standing in your physical shoes, and we were sitting before a buffet of food, we would choose the food that appealed to us and as we are sitting to eat it, we would acknowledge its benefit. We would make its benefit our dominant vibration. We would become so singular in making its benefit our dominant vibration, that nothing we had learned before that at one time had been a dominant vibration, would be affecting us here and now. Our dominant vibration here and now would be one of allowing our physical body to respond with this food and achieve the results we are wanting. Are you getting a sense of what we are talking about? Everything is about vibration.”

“So, it helps you to understand why even though there have been hundreds of thousands of books written upon the subject of nutrition, they hardly ever agree. The reason is because there is a great deal of variation in the combinations of actions and thoughts and intentions and beliefs, that you as individuals hold. And when you discover that all you have to do is align you up with you, all you have to do is choose a desire and then find a dominant thought that matches that desire.”

“So the words you are wanting to begin speaking and meaning and practicing until you know that it is true is: I’m vital, I’m alive, I’m flexible. I feel good in my body. I have a really good body. My body enjoys this physical existence. I have energy that flows into my body. My body knows what to do. My body has resources within it. There is consciousness within me that knows what to do. I don’t have to struggle so hard, my body knows what to do. In other words, as you begin choosing life affirming thoughts, and you practice them so that they become dominant within you, everything within your experience will begin to reflect the lining up of energy within you, because that is the only thing anything that you are living has to do with. The only thing that is making any difference in the outcome of your physical experience is the lining up of energy, which is the lining up of thoughts, which is the lining up of how you feel.”

[escapee]

I always wonder if i'm born as a chicken , duck or pig , what would i feel about human race with seemingly unlimited appetite for animal flesh,resourses & superficial power/glory at the expense of environmental destruction ? I think evil coldblood monster is the best description that those 'low life' animals could think of us but of course this is just the perspective of the animals , not human, so their "subjective perspective" may not be worthy of discussion as according to many people.

There will come a time when the nature says enough is enough, and the human race, along with other animals will be transformed into different kind of energy form (via massive natural disaster or nukular disaster of some sort ) , readily absorbed by "low life" insect, trees , glass and plants to initiate the all new ecological balance . Hurrayyyy ..

[escapee]

An angry meat eater argument against the vegan/vegetarian ..

How to Win an Argument with a Plant Eater .

Many of those who have adopted a Meatatarian diet have done so because of the ethical argument, either from reading about or personally experiencing what goes on daily at any one of the thousands of harvest fields in the U.S. and other countries, where plants suffer the cruel process of being unable to get up and run since their roots are secured in the ground, manipulation, violent death, and even rape in a few bizarre cases! Their pain and terror is beyond calculation. To quote Revered Maynard: "You see, tommorow is harvest day, and to them (the plants) it is THE HOLOCAUST"

[tgl]

Originally Posted by kljsadfhklj

...

If you are, for example, a kid, and you don't know where the meat comes from and you just eat it and believe it's awesome and it'll make you healthy and etc. then probably it will. But then you 'grow up' and you learn that animals are killed and, before that, have to go trough horrible lifes.. Then things change a little.

...

I was reading something which said that the reason babies spit up the food they are given at first is because it's cooked. They don't recognize it as food. On the other hand, if you take a raw carrot and chew it up or pulverize it in a Vitamix or something, babies won't spit that up.

[Dolazy]

Statistics and scientific facts about veganism are not so significant to this discussion. My question is not whether veganism is really more healthy or not, this discussion is purely intellectual. Namely: Does it make sense to be vegan in a subjective reality.

The question that I really want answer for is this one:
If all other living beings are part of my consciousness, does that mean it is possible for me to raise my level of awareness to such a high level where all animals would stop eating each other?


I think I haven't really gotten an answer that doesn't expose the assumption of reality being objective. You can say "Animals eat each other. That's just the way things are.", but that's not true in a subjective reality. I would answer: "No, it is the way I created it. My fearful ego caused animals to eat each other."

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Statistics and scientific facts about veganism are not so significant to this discussion. My question is not whether veganism is really more healthy or not, this discussion is purely intellectual. Namely: Does it make sense to be vegan in a subjective reality.

The question that I really want answer for is this one:
If all other living beings are part of my consciousness, does that mean it is possible for me to raise my level of awareness to such a high level where all animals would stop eating each other?


I think I haven't really gotten an answer that doesn't expose the assumption of reality being objective. You can say "Animals eat each other. That's just the way things are.", but that's not true in a subjective reality. I would answer: "No, it is the way I created it. My fearful ego caused animals to eat each other."

Hi DoLazy

I suppose that everyone has a subjective reality; their own world so to speak. What we subjectively believe though, doesnt have to conflict with the objective material world. It is for me similar to what Descartes was saying when he talked about truth and what we can be sure of. Can we really be sure that what we observe through our (fallable) senses is the truth. Are we being decieved by an evil demon, who is playing tricks with our minds? Is the only truth, the position where we know we exist because we can posit the Cartesian, "I think, therefore I am"?

All that is well and good, but we quickly have to move away from metaphysics and meta-philosophy unless we will come crashing down to reality city pretty quickly when the alarm clock goes off at 5 am!

As far as veganism is concerned: I became vegan amost overnight when I started studying the various arguments for and against animal rights. (Tom Regan, Peter Singer). The objective reality was that (if we use Hume's Naturalistic fallacy argument) "what is-is not what ought to be".

If animals can have emotions, feel pain, play, have social groups etc then this was enough for me to objectively observe that humans are also just human animals only more 'intelligent'. But isnt it true that the way the 'big' man treats the 'little man' is more a mark of character and 'intelligence' than any other marker? The DNA of humans is almost exactly like that of the great apes. If we prey on someone or something only because they are of lower intelligence than us, then why not prey on the mentally retarded or infants. If we respond by saying that is because they are humans, then we are admitting we are discriminating on the basis of species (like race, colour, gender etc). Its all discrimination.

I can objectively observe that we are killing the planet through factory farming, over grazing, destruction of the rainforests to rasie cattle etc.
In the case of veganism, subjective and objective reality run in parallel.
The default position for humans should be veganism. If we know that survival or progression does not require consumption of animal products and simultaneaously observe that animals experience a life of their own and can feel pain, then as compassionate beings we should be compelled to act in a manner that not only decreases suffering and exploitation, but will possibly halt the destruction of the earth through wantan greed and wastage of finite natural resources.

No matter how much I subjectively create an alternative reality, the plane is still going to crash, so to speak, unless we do something about it.

[The David]

Subjective reality can't be that easily influenced, or life wouldn't seem so stable. I can wish all I want to sprout wings and fly, but even if I try to convince myself I can, deep down inside there will be a doubt, which will sabotage the whole thing.

[Tripp444]

I think Stolper's post resonates the best with me. I have to admit, I'm glad I don't have such strong opinions about food, one way or the other. I think the people that DO have the strong opinions, and will have a heated argument for or against veganism, are more limited in their choices. Don't get me wrong, I think veganism can be great, but I wouldn't want to have such strong negative emotions tied to ANY foods. Meat, or otherwise.
Just my opinion

[Dolazy]

Originally Posted by Stephen

All that is well and good, but we quickly have to move away from metaphysics and meta-philosophy unless we will come crashing down to reality city pretty quickly when the alarm clock goes off at 5 am!

Howdy Stephen!

I agree with you that it's dangerous to just live happily assuming reality is completely subjective. From what you write I get that you believe reality to be objective?

Thanks also for your insights of veganism.

Concerning my true question I feel I still haven't received an answer. Some suggest that reality is subjective, but that certain beliefs are so deeply rooted that they can be considered as objective physical reality. For me that's fine. But it means that they are still subjective and CAN be altered, it just takes a little more time. So from this I assume the answer must be YES. It IS possible to raise your awareness to such a level where even animals stop eating each other.

Or is there some flaw in my reasoning?

Francis

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Dolazy

Howdy Stephen!

I agree with you that it's dangerous to just live happily assuming reality is completely subjective. From what you write I get that you believe reality to be objective?

Thanks also for your insights of veganism.

Concerning my true question I feel I still haven't received an answer. Some suggest that reality is subjective, but that certain beliefs are so deeply rooted that they can be considered as objective physical reality. For me that's fine. But it means that they are still subjective and CAN be altered, it just takes a little more time. So from this I assume the answer must be YES. It IS possible to raise your awareness to such a level where even animals stop eating each other.

Or is there some flaw in my reasoning?

Francis

Maybe not a flaw in your argument, but perhaps we have stumbled upon a paradox.

One one hand, the brainwashed Winston Smith in 1984, subjectively believes that 2 + 2 = 5 even though we know objectively that 2 + 2 = 4.

But on the other hand, Winstons reality really is different from ours, regardless of how flawed his reasoning is according to the laws of mathematics.

There is no middle ground in cases like this, and it might be a case where a large pinch of salt is required when next we go to bite on our subjective sandwich!

To make the paradoxical point firmer, think how baffling it is to realise that 1 = 0.9999999 infinite.

Just divide 1 by 3 as a fraction then decimilise one third of the fraction then try and multiply back again!

[The Yarnist]

I went vegan (for about 2 months) after being vegetarian for about 18 months. It was not good for me. Maybe I didn't do it the "right" way or whatever. However, when I went vegan, I truly believed that it was the healthiest path for my body. I developed chronic yeast issues which plagued me for years after that stint. Eventually I went back to eating chicken and turkey and that was when I felt the healthiest. Becoming vegan/vegetarian really opened up my palate though so it was a good experience.

So in my case, I believed veganism was the best path for my physical health but it didn't pan out that way. Or maybe it was the best path in that it opened me up to trying new vegetables etc... Now, I just eat what my body tells me that I need. Sometimes it's a salad with kale and cucumbers and tomatoes and sometimes it's steak. I do hold the intention that I'm extracting all the health benefits of what I'm eating and my understanding of subjective reality with regard to food choices is like what was quoted as being said by Hicks.