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11-06-2006, 02:37 PM
| #31 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 595
 |  Quote:
Now that's a paradox! Hi Yarnist You may or may not know this but of all animals reared for slaughter the chicken is the one with the worst deal. Most chickens are raised in awful conditions in cages or 'barns' with zero space to move around, are pumped full of growth inducing steroids (to fatten them quickly) and antibiotics (to suppress the raging viral infections in these animal hell-holes) - which humans implicitly digest when they eat the 'product'. Result - cruelty and insufferable pain for the chicken: a compromised immune system and morality for the consumer. If you can imagine the worst day you ever had. Multiply it by a zillion and you are somewhere close to the subjective and objective reality of a chicken raised for food or laying. | |
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11-06-2006, 08:51 PM
| #33 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 115
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11-06-2006, 09:44 PM
| #34 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20
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In my study of Chinese medicine theory (which is admittedly young, yet quite extensive as it is my future profession) there is nothing substantial to support many Chinese doc's wholesale rejection of veganism/vegetarianism. There are many foodstuffs discussed in Chinese medicine theory that adequately compensate for the factors that the theory believes would be missing from an animal foods inclusive diet. Eric Grey | |
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11-06-2006, 10:44 PM
| #35 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
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Francis, You have to think of *everything* as subjective. Not just sometimes. For example: I had an ex boyfriend who always caused me bad stress and heartache. After trying to reconcile things literally dozens of times, I decided that Paul wasn't going to exist to me anymore, becuase all he did was mess up my life and I didn't want that to happen anymore. So, I held the intention that Paul would cease to exist to me for the greatest good (I didn't want him hit by a bus or anything,) and in my reality that intention manifested. My actions matched what I said, I told Paul that we were negative influences on each other, that were couldn't be friends anymore, that we couldn't keep seeing each other, that we were going our seperate ways and I didn't want any more contact with him. And that's what happened. Now, if I were to drive to Pauls house to see if he really existed objectively then I would be disbelieving in a subjective reality. I don't do that, because I believe in a subjective reality. So, because I believe in it Paul no longer exists in my reality. My intention manifested the way I needed it to, and Paul no longer exists. Understand? So, if you really believe in a subjective reality model you won't constantly hold it up against an objective reality. If you believe that all there is is your own experiences, you won't try to dispute that belief because disputing it by trying to find evidence to the contrary, would give you that evidence. Whatever you were looking for you would find. It's easy for me to manifest a world where animals don't eat each other. I haven't seen an animal eat another animal for ten years or so. I'm pretty sure I'll never see one animal eat another in the future, beyond people easting meat I guess. So, in my reality, animals don't eat each other. Nothing in my experience tells me otherwise. And since my experience is all that there is, that's that. | |
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11-07-2006, 12:51 AM
| #36 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 32
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Subjective reality will take objective reality into consideration, b/c it exists. In order to know what you want for yourself, what you want to manifest in your life (subj. reality), you will look outside yourself (objective reality) at some point. Simply pretending other things don't exist is not what subjective reality is about. In order to truly practice subj. reality, one embraces it all. Everything. Whether or not one agrees with it all is a moot point, b/c there is no emotional attachment to reality. "Subjective" and "objective" are really judgment calls (as they pertain to "reality"), and neither term is necessary in order to create one's own reality. To answer the OP: Nothing is necessary. We choose what we choose simply b/c we are able to have and exercise choice. A person can give you a million and one reasons why veganism is good for him or her. It doesn't matter if it is true or not (and veganism isn't something that can honestly be proven as good or bad, that's why there is so much evidence for each side), what matters is that the person has chosen it and allows that choice to influence other choices in his or her life. I would say that veganism is a symptom of a much larger issue(and I don't mean anything negative by that). It may be a jumping off point for other things, but in and of itself...it is of no consequence. Last edited by november; 11-07-2006 at 12:55 AM. | |
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11-07-2006, 12:09 PM
| #37 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 22
| a little point
One point I think I see missing from this discussion is about congruency. Steve mentions in his podcast that you can't deny the state of reality that you currently are perceiving. Whether or not veganism is the answer I think you have to first look at the question of factory farming and decide if factory farming is really congruent with your beliefs and ideals. Go to themeatrix.com, veganoutreach.org or peta.com and learn a little about factory farming. This is what is happening right now in your current reality...you wouldn't have come across this information any other way. So form your answers on subjective reality from an informed, conscious perspective and then decide what your best response will be. Maybe it's you'll find that it's eating organic, going vegan, or doing nothing at all, but you can't skip the step of informing yourself on the subject matter and fully understanding what you are currently getting from the universe before you choose a response to it. A state of blissful ignorance simply won't get you the results you seek (like the hypothetical child who believes that meat is good for them). That child does't exist...you do and you have to form your reality on the information that you are getting from the universe. |
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11-07-2006, 01:12 PM
| #39 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
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However "choosing" is not the best word because there is not really a conscious choice that was made, but nonetheless it would be a creation of their mind. | |
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11-07-2006, 01:41 PM
| #40 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 66
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Fat is stored energy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you fat. You're more likely to store fat from eating too many (and the wrong kind) carbohydrates than you are from eating fat. I think dietary fat is more related to heart health. | |
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11-07-2006, 01:54 PM
| #41 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
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However, if you believe that reality is created from thought then all is possible. | |
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11-07-2006, 02:03 PM
| #42 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 66
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Not only does eating fat not make you fat, but your body needs fat. Nuts, avocado, olives, etc. | |
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11-07-2006, 02:05 PM
| #43 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NM, USA
Posts: 1,394
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11-07-2006, 02:20 PM
| #44 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
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11-07-2006, 02:25 PM
| #45 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
| Quote:
Last edited by Dolazy; 11-07-2006 at 02:38 PM. | |
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11-07-2006, 02:38 PM
| #46 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
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1. I created my reality. 2. In my reality I see that eating meat causes suffering. 3. Therefore I choose not to eat animal products anymore in order to reduce the suffering in my reality. I like this reasoning and it's a strong answer for defending veganism for ethical reasons in a subjective reality. However, it does not answer the question about choosing veganism for improving your personal health. I think my original claim holds that the results will only the manifestation of your current beliefs. Francis | |
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11-07-2006, 03:06 PM
| #47 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 66
| Quote:
I surf multi-tabbed in Firefox and lost track of which thread I was in. Sorry for crapping up the thread. To add something of value to this thread... If your subconscious is a result of your past conscious choices and experiences, and how you interpret them, I don't think conscious or subconscious would make much of a difference from a subjective viewpoint. If it comes into your relative, be any means, it can only be there because you brought it there. However, I'm noticing two issues within veganism; one being an unethical treatment of animals and the second being excess and waste. The suffering caused to animals by the eating of meat could be reduced by veganism, but excess and waste isn't really a vegan-only issue. But I guess either way it would be dealt with by a subjective reality system just as any other issue would. The funny thing is though, from a subjective view point, is that trying to convert others to veganism isn't really trying to change another's subjective reality. You're still dealing with yourself since other people are just a manifestation of your own reality. Arguments arise from two conflicting realities "is so," "is not," "is so," "is not." From a subjective viewpoint, it would be only one reality, your own. So the conflict would be within yourself. Am I getting this right? So then, how does one deal with inner conflict in a subjective reality system? Would the answer be to raise the awareness (of veganism in this case) within yourself so that it would be made manifest elsewhere in your reality? | |
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11-07-2006, 04:41 PM
| #48 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 32
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The fact is that factory farms are not the only source of meat and meat products in the world. If a person uses factory farming practices as a major reason to be vegan, I wonder about that persons ability to think logically and/or expand his or her personal awareness. |
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11-07-2006, 05:52 PM
| #49 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin
Posts: 12
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Hypothetical question: Is veganism only an answer to factory farming or to eating meat in general? I ate strictly vegan for a year and I benefited greatly from the experience because I intended to do so. Now I am back eating meat and it doesn't impair my spiritual awareness at all. Of course do I think that factory farming is cruel, but how about the hunter who kills an animal and eventually eats it? What's so cruel about animals eating animals? Bliss depends on one's own reality which is supposed to take place beyond denial but with a congruent enough setup... all is possible (see above). -Alexander | |
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11-07-2006, 06:54 PM
| #50 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin
Posts: 12
| Is veganism preinstalled in subjective reality? Quote:
Can a predator feel bliss? Once a predator accepts that he is a predator what would hold him -- or her -- back from achieving and experiencing bliss? | |
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11-07-2006, 09:50 PM
| #51 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 595
| Quote:
I think people do have to defend their decision to eat animals. I think your last sentence sums it up that you admit that it is sad that animals are exploited and killed just to satisfy human taste buds, when there is no need to have animals in your diet. If you couldnt eat your pet cat or dog, then eating a pig or a chicken should be off limits to. There is no difference bar the part where you have been socially conditioned to follow a certain diet. | |
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11-07-2006, 10:22 PM
| #52 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 595
| Quote:
I dont think it is entirely relevant to differentiate between eating 'hunted' food or eating factory farmed food. That fact is we do not need to eat meat to survive-thrive, so the question must be- Why would anyone do so? To ask the question as you did - "What's so cruel about about animals eating animals?- is irrelevant. We are not base uneducated savages. We belong to an advanced social system where we apply ethics to every area of out lives. We have advanced out of the food chain and have formed complex social regulations to protect the vulnerable. We have self awareness and reflective capacity and have evolved from hunters to farmers. Unfortunately, many people have abused their dominant position to use their fellow creatures as nothing more than commodities. It must be either that they have been raised in that way- okay I accept that, but once they have been alerted to the issues of cruelty, animals rights, health etc why would they continue? Would it be taste? Can anyone justify the slaughter and cruelty of millions of animals to satisfy their taste buds? What about the predator/socio-biological argument? Well, what is- is not always what ought to be, as in the 'Naturalist Fallacy'. Because we have a desire for something doesnt mean necessarily that we should have that desire realised. Look at sexual desire for instance, desire for omni-potence over our fellow beings. Taking these things without concent lead to sex crimes and totalitarianism, in these examples. Animals are the same. We dont need to eat animals. They have not concented to be eaten by us. If anyone thinks this is dubious then I suggest they spend an hour in their local abatoir and see the fear in animals eyes as they are forced along death row to await their execution. Animals have an acute sense of smell, and boy do they smell death. I have seen this with my own eyes. If only abatoirs had glass walls. The arguments that animals are of a lower inteligence than us also doesnt cut the mustard. Are we to prey on creatures/beings with lower intelligence than us, or should we be kind to them? Are we saying that animals should be killed because they are not humans? This is blatant discrimination/speciesism- No different from sexual discrimination, secterianism, racism, ageism. Animals may not have the advanced intelligence humans have but that doesnt mean they dont feel pain, have emotions (who has ever seen a sad or happy dog? -all of us I think), or enjoy their own form of existence. Why do western omnivores look appauled when they see asians eating cats and dogs, whilst the western society tucks into the flesh of a once healthy deer or calf etc. It is all social conditioning, thats all. I think that this website is bursting with intelligent , compassionate human beings and it gives me encouragement to think that all of them would consider unselfishly if their animal consumption was unethical, enviromentally unsustainable and unhealthy. If people are truly engaged in self development at all levels and not just in and out for a quick buck, then I can not see why anyone could, after serious soul searching, see the use and abuse of animals as anything other than morally indefensible. | |
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11-08-2006, 02:04 AM
| #53 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota
Posts: 123
|  Quote:
I really like this question because it points out the contrast between morality and compassion versus manifestation of intentions, encouraging us to contemplate the nature of reality. As I see it, the answer boils down to a fundamental question; who am I and what is the nature of my consciousness? Here are three potential answers that each seem to fit a subjective reality paradigm and attempt to address the question at hand. 1. I am that which experiences the five senses of my one and only avatar and I am all that exists; everything that is experienced by the one and only consciousness (me) do not exist outside of my own experience of them. I have complete control over all my experiences and if I believed I could eat animals and be healthy and if I wanted to I certainly could. And since there is no outside experiencer of animal feelings I can just detach myself from the killing and be completely happy with no moral concern, for as a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it doesn't make a sound so is the absence of pain to a calf slaughtered with no consciousness there to experience it. My health will be fine if I believe it will and I have plenty of examples of people who have lived happy healthy lives into there 90s eating an animal based diet. So in this model, veganism doesn't make much sense unless I really feel like eating vegetables. 2. I am that consciousness in which and for which all existence manifests. Although there is only one experiencer and therefore only one experience, all of existence is a precious part of my Self. Therefore I will maximize the joy of my experience if I treat everything in my creation as important parts of my Self. Although I know the animals don't experience pain as I do for there is only one experiencer and one experience which I'm having, I know my creation will be more harmonious if I have compassion for every component of it. I am in control of what I experience, but I created these animals and I feel happier if I don't eat them. Also, the factory farming of them is not congruent with what I have already manifested, so it introduces problems such as bird flu that I will have to deal with as a result. I have created my reality with laws of nature that purposefully have causes and effects that are not easily manipulated. This allows for a stable reality that is a perfect medium for the expression of my creativity. The consequence of setting the laws up as I did is that choices have to be made. Choices that will either result in more harmony and joy or less health, harmony and joy. 3. I am the container of consciousness, that which is prior to the manifestation of experience. All experience arises from me and is made up of me, but duality is a necessary part of the manifestation of experience. Every manifestation of existence is conscious and separately aware yet made up of the one. Every experience and experiencer is impermanent yet eternal at its core. All consciousness is here to be aware, to experience and at least the human form is here to participate in creation and enjoy life. Everything in time comes and it goes. The purpose can only be found in the present moment. Compassion and morality can only be found in how you feel. Pay as much attention to how you feel in every crevice of your being when you are eating or deciding what to eat and how you feel after you eat; there you will find your answer. If you don't like these make up your own model of reality and see how it holds up against and addresses complex issues such as morality. | |
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11-08-2006, 04:19 AM
| #54 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 22
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Jaben- Really good break down of the subject. I too have a lot of passion for the subject and taking a look at this from the viewpoint of a subjective reality is very helpful and educational for me. ------------------------ As for anyone questioning someone's ability to reason and logic because not all meat comes from factory farming...well, I still say you have to go back to step one of taking control of your subjective reality and that is being aware and informed about what you are currently observing. If you don't know what you are observing, if you are blissfully ignorant, or if you are flat out denying the state of any given situation then you have no power. OBSERVING IS CREATING. So, while not all meat comes from factory farming it is fact delusional to reason that the ethical, environmental and health problems that are manifesting in this reality of planet Earth 2006 are unrelated to the fact that most developed and undeveloped countries confine, abuse, torture, mistreat, and neglect the animals that they kill for food ON A MASS SCALE. Sure, an animal is going to die eventually anyway, you can raise an animal for food humanely, and eating some meat might not damage your personal in the long or short term....but again missing the point. Of course one person smoking one cigarette isn't going to cause many problems, but we all know that the current health crisis from cigarettes isn't from Native Americans passing around a peace pipe on special occasions. And the same is true from meat consumption the problem isn't that people are eating small amounts of humanely treated and healthy meat....for the most part that's actually a fantasy. The current state of raising animals for food is a complete disaster on all fronts...it's hurting humans, animals, and the planet as a whole. It's increasing our energy consumption, the safety standards of the food are at best dubious and the more you learn about it the more shocking it really gets. You don't have to take my word on any of this either...just a small effort to become more informed on the topic will produce some shocking results. You may think I lack reasoning skills, but my guess is you don't have the experience and depth of knowledge with the subject that I do. I don't say that in an arrogant way...it's possible that you may have read and studied more than me about veganism and rationales for becoming vegan, but I haven't run across anyone before who knows as much or more about the topic as me who questions my ability to reason. If in fact you are quite knowledgable on factory farming and veganism and you still question my ability to reason then I would actually be really eager to meet and talk with you. Not for some kind of tete a tete, but I think it would be a really great learning experience.  |
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11-08-2006, 04:54 AM
| #55 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
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Why don't you try out a thirty day trial, and then you would know if the results were exactly what you thought they would be. We don't know what your results would be because we don't know your beliefs.. There isn't just one belief that will impact your results. You have literally thousands of thoughts and beliefs swirling around in your mind that will affect the outcome of a trial in different ways. So when you ask us whether the results will just turn out like you think they will, the answer is sure.. but if you were to ask us whether you really know what all your beliefs and thoughts are on a given subject, no way. So there will always be surprises. Knowing yourself is the challenge, subjectivity reality is simply the proving grounds. But who am I anyway? Just a figment of your reality, a part of yourself telling you something... from beyond the high speed: Stop trying to *have* all the answers and start trying to *live* all your answers.. you'll learn and know a lot more that way. Your beliefs aren't so simple that you could just paste them all into a forum, and the same is true for your subjective reality. | |
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11-08-2006, 08:34 AM
| #56 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 595
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I think that attempting to create a subjective reality out of what is clearly an objective fact is quite dangerous. In fact, in terms of the lives of animals, it comes down to slaughter, cruelty, exploitation and greed. Try watching this PETA TV: Select Your Media Preferences: Meet Your Meat and tell me how someone could subjectively create a reality which is different from what they actually see. This video is not extreme. It is an everyday reality for non-human animals. |
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11-08-2006, 05:17 PM
| #57 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin
Posts: 12
| Eagle vs. dove Quote:
I'm playing a bit advocatus diaboli here. My hypothetical and completely rethorical question is whether hunting, as opposed to the perverse and cruel factory farming which -- subjectively or not -- is not explainable nor comprehensible to even partially aware people, whether hunting is under certain circumstances not lowering consciousness since the cruelty can be taken out of the equation. It's the eagle vs. the dove problem. | |
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11-08-2006, 05:31 PM
| #58 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin
Posts: 12
| Quote:
that's a nice set of definitions you offer. The one I quoted makes the most sense to me. Defining ones level of subjectivity makes (in)compatibilities visible and creates common grounds... The best about this thread is the fact that it is all subjective, every word can be interpreted from at least two perspectives. | |
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11-09-2006, 03:32 AM
| #59 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota
Posts: 123
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I'd like to expand on my subjective reality model 3, which I may refer to as a multi-avatar subjective reality, to address your question from the quote above. Under this model when something becomes manifest more than one intention must be satisfied. In fact it seems the sum of all intentions would need to be satisfied and not contradict with each other. When all avatar's intentions play a part in what is healthy, it makes more sense that a vegan diet would be healthy. Here is where compassion and health go hand in hand. If your actions are better for the whole the whole will benefit from rewarding you for your actions. Or maybe plants are less vengeful or just don't mind being eaten as much as cows do  From Steve's subjective reality pod-cast I would say he definitely believed model 2 at that time. I really think a multi-avatar subjective reality answers more questions than it brings up and is perfectly consistent with intention/manifestation. It definitely explains why congruency is important and provides a much stronger argument for compassion and morality. As far as I can tell this model is also consistent with Abraham-Hicks, Eckhart Tolle, Nisargadatta Majaraj and the Bhagavad Gita. Non of these advocate a vegan diet however. Abraham-Hicks seems to believe that both predator and prey welcomed the competitive game of eat and be eaten when they agreed to incarnate. I want to believe we will evolve beyond that and perhaps the problem of factory farming will move us in that direction. Research such as the China Study would indicate that we are (in this model). The bird flu will certainly motivate us to address the factory farming issue if predictions are correct. | |
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11-09-2006, 03:50 AM
| #60 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,243
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This is a new knowledge to me ... Are you here to convert us to Atkin diet ?  Last edited by escapee; 11-09-2006 at 03:53 AM. | |
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