Most Comprehensive Anti-Raw Literature, Ever

[Fullcrum]

This is the most comprehensive and seemingly sensible approach to anti-vegan literature I've ever read.

Comparative Anatomy Updated. Humans--Omnivores or Vegetarians?

I implore you to read this if you have the time and are curious. It addresses basically all the arguments raw-foodists and vegans use in a scientific manner. At least, it appears scientific.

For example, the argument about "humans have no claws and don't look like carnivores" is false logic. It's explained on this page What Comparative Anatomy Does/Doesn't Tell Us about Human Diet

I've read it all (it took several hours but it's well worth your time because this is your life!) and it seems convincing that humans were evolutionarily built to eat meat. It's got a lot of evidence.

However, that does not explain to me why raw vegans seem to feel the best on the planet of anyone on any particular diet. Why is it that people report such stunning health on it? The website addresses this somewhere and states that people on raw diets report a dramatic increase in health and then they decline several years later. I'ver never seen this in any of the raw guys I follow to this day (Boutenkos, Tim VanOrden, that family with 5 kids that lives in the mountains). They and the children raised 100% raw seem healthy as anything.

Also, the beyondveg website states a calorie paradox; basically that it is hard to get enough calories on a raw food diet. To me, it seems calories as we know them fall apart somewhat when we get to raw food. Steve Pavlina, for example, know that if he ate a certain amount of calories of cooked food, he'd gain weight, but if he ate the same amount of calories, or even more, on a raw food diet, he'd lose weight. Very interesting.

This has resulted in me being confused about the optimal diet. After all, there are very few people who've been 100% raw their whole lives who talk about it.

David Wolfe, for example, eats ants to supply vitamin B-12. YouTube - David Wolfe spreaks about Vitamin B-12 in the Raw Food Diet

Haha, come on! you have to be kidding me. It makes me wonder if other raw guys are hiding supplements or something else or simply haven't had enough time for B-12 deficiencies to surface. It does, after all, take many years in a healthy individual because the body is very good at B-12 recycling.

I found this website that attempts to give counterarguments to beyondveg. Tom Billings and beyondveg.com

However, the arguments seem somewhat weak. Most of what this guy covers are arguments that are already covered in the first article I showed.

This stuff makes me think. Feel free to chime in.

[sgregory]

I've read that thing about vegetarians having good health for a few years and then it going down.

About B12, I read it's because b-12 can stay in your body for 5 years or so in the fat, so you don't start to feel deficiencies until about that time.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by sgregory

I've read that thing about vegetarians having good health for a few years and then it going down.

I've read about non-veg people seeing their health decline over a period of years too.

You can read biased info from people with agendas on both sides (the beyondveg site has a lot of quacky info on it, but so do many pro-raw sites). In the end you'll just run yourself in circles. Better to bypass the info battle and use personal testing to see how different diets actually affect you. See what your body has to say about it.

Too often people seek stats to justify sticking to a diet their body has already proclaimed as pure crap. Instead of trying to comfort yourself, go out and seek the truth by putting different stuff in your mouth for a while. If you perceive no difference or a decline, try something else until you get a positive change.

[Dan.Linehan]

I don't trust the beyondveg guy.

TB: I went on a 4-day water fast. The results were disastrous: my "light" mental feeling disappeared, my strength vanished and I was weak and fatigued, and my weight dropped to the life-threatening level of 88 pounds (40 kg; I am 6'1" = 185 cm tall).

Now, I'm 6'3, 175, and I consider myself to be somewhat on the thin side.

This guy went on a 4-day FAST when he was 6'1, 88 pounds? He's lucky he didn't die.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

This guy went on a 4-day FAST when he was 6'1, 88 pounds? He's lucky he didn't die.

Yeah, that seems a bit unstable.

[Playlife]

@Dan: I understood that he lost about 88 pound during those 4 days that he fasted.

[TooTicki]

It may be very interesting to research what diet we as a species have used in our history but I´m not sure it´s all that consequential. I say you´d still need to look into what different diets do for us today. The argument that we´ve been eating meat during our evolution (which, by the way seems very likely) isn´t good enough to convince me it´s the best we can do.

On the subject of veganism and B12 deffiency I thought of this longish anecdote that is well worth the read.

My own experience with raw foods is as follows. When 17, I met an elderly Essene man who was a raw fooder who ate dairy. He became my mentor and I followed his diet. We made raw yogurts and other fermented dairy products from mostly goat and sheep milk from animals well taken care of. (With fermented dairy the lactose is predigested and does not cause mucous and is very digestible.) I ate that diet for many years and was very healthy. Then, due to my attraction to the philosophy of veganism, I became a vegan raw fooder. I never felt as healthy on that version of the diet and after five years on that version I lost the use of my feet and was nearly crippled. I had to crawl to the bathroom. I had my blood tested and was B-12 anemic. I began taking B-12 and eating dairy. The B-12 healed my nerve problems, but I believe it was the protein in the fermented dairy that healed my feet and muscle tissue. (On the vegan version my muscle tissue seemed to be eating itself; after adding the yogurt my muscle tissue healed itself.)

Since my negative experience as a raw vegan I have been on the mostly raw with fermented dairy version another five years and feel fantastic. Thus, all together I have eaten the raw with dairy diet 15 years, always feeling fantastic and being physically fit. The five years as a raw vegan resulted in my body falling apart.

While I was a vegan I preached that philosophy with great fervor. I truly believed it was the best diet. Whenever I heard a raw vegan or cooked vegan describe health problems that they experienced on the vegan diet, I chalked it up to either 1) They are just detoxing; or, 2) They are not following the diet correctly. But after my own negative experience as a raw vegan I began to honestly open my eyes. The following is a synopsis of what I found.

Because I was by this time a "noted raw food speaker" and intimate with other famous raw food speakers/experts, I was often at their homes and getting to know them. I found that many of these noted speakers/experts/authors were experiencing anxiety attacks, panic attacks, clinical depression, and various muscle tissue and other problems. However, what was most troubling, is that they didn't want the public to know. I won't name names because that would be betraying confidential interactions, but many of them called me when they were needing some sort of advice for dealing with these ailments. Then, at the next big raw food conference, there that person would be, preaching the amazing benefits of the 100% raw vegan diet, signing copies of their books, and speaking negatively about cooked food eaters and those who eat only partially raw or are not vegan. This was a major eye-opener for me. I realized that once a person is earning their livelihood and getting their "positive strokes" by being an author/expert on the raw/vegan diet, it is very hard for them to admit that the diet is not working in their own life. It would mean that their own books were no longer valid, and they would need to find another way to earn their livelihood.

But there is another reason that raw food author/experts (as well as the non-famous raw vegans) do not publicly admit their problems with the diet. Because people have been shamed into not admitting their hardships on this diet, each one believes they are the only one having the problem. This is especially true with anxiety attacks, panic attacks, and depression. I have been in a room with seven raw food experts and had personal knowledge that five of them had been struggling with those problems, and yet each of them thought they were the only one. Because I am a minister, many of these folks felt comfortable enough to seek counseling from me, but would not feel comfortable mentioning their problems to others. I once lived in a house with several raw food vegans. Every one of them ended up with nervous disorders such as panic attacks. One of them went on a raw food chat board and asked if it might be due to the diet and perhaps they should take B-12. The moderator of that chat board wrote back saying that the diet is perfectly fine and they were just going through detox. However, I was a personal friend of that moderator and so I knew what the other people on the chat board did not know: I knew that the moderator himself was suffering from terrible panic attacks and was even considering suicide (he had confided that to me, but on the chat board he moderated he still preached the party line: all problems are just detox).

I then read an issue of Chet Day's Health and Beyond newsletter in which former students of T. C. Fry wrote in and described how they had become crippled following his diet. I read another interview in that mag of a Natural Hygienist doctor who said that health problems "invariably" result in a 100% raw vegan diet.

Then, in a town very near me, one of the founding members of the local raw food group died at a very young age from heart problems. My guess is he was about 49 or so. The doctor told his wife that the man's body had begun to eat itself and destroyed his heart due to malnutrition. His body had not been getting enough nutrition on the raw vegan diet, as he did not absorb enough nutrients from raw foods. When his wife shared that info with the members of that raw food support group, she was told "the doctor is wrong. And if you are going to speak negatively about raw foods you are no longer welcome to attend." That was the support she got when her husband had just dropped dead. I then told a woman from a California raw food support group that story. She responded, "Oh, we just had a guy die from the very same thing. The doctors said his body had begun to eat itself due to malnutrition. I began to wonder how prevalent these sorts of problems really are.

I could go on and on reporting similar things. But suffice it to say that I now believe there are problems with the raw vegan diet. And now that I have begun to share this sort of information, I am getting the exact response I have seen others get when they shared such info: brushed aside with some sort of negative remark.

Here is what I have decided to do. I am soliciting peoples experiences, good and bad, with this diet. I am doing a research project. It will be unbiased. In three years or so I will publish the results.

Last remark: I still think raw foods are great! I have thrived on a raw diet with yogurt for 15 years. I have friends who have thrived equally long including eggs in their raw diet. So, I am not against raw foods, I am in favour of them, but now believe their is something missing in the vegan form of the diet. I guess it is appropriate that, as an Essene, I now find myself supporting the version of the diet given by Jesus in the Essene Gospel of Peace (raw diet with dairy). When I was a raw food vegan I was embarrassed by Jesus' including raw dairy in the diet. Now I realize he knew what he was doing!

Found on Three Generations of Vegetarian Hygienists - Dr. Stanley Bass . It´s only an anecdote and I don´t even know who wrote it but I still found it convincing enough that I put of any thoughts of going vegan or raw.

[Dan.Linehan]

I know lots of long term vegans and a couple long term raw foodists. None of them have lost use of their feet.

What does that even mean?

[The David]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

At least, it appears scientific.

lol.

I'll read it. Honestly, I doubt that literature can prove anything one way or another. I've heard arguments go both ways. Some vegans die healthy at an old age, some omnivores do. Body chemistry, strengths and weaknesses, and eating plan is what probably makes the difference.

[TooTicki]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I know lots of long term vegans and a couple long term raw foodists. None of them have lost use of their feet.

What does that even mean?

Not sure but it sounds bad. I imagine it to be like both of your feet falling asleep at the same time. Happened to a friend of mine and he fell flat like an idiot. (no, this has nothing to do with the subject)

[Neutral]

It's easy to make the naturalistic fallacy. Just because humans ate a certain way 100,000 years ago, doesn't mean that's the best way. That's a misunderstanding of evolution.

But we likely ate meat (maybe even raw) for most of our history. But to me, that secondary. Dietary choices include morality. But that's another issue.

However, the raw/raw vegan seems closer to optimal than SAD (or most diets). But we simply don't know enough yet. So we're forced to experiment individually. But some diets must be better than others.

[Rose of Cairo]

I didn't read those articles, in my eyes it's wasted time. Not because they're anti-raw, but because you'll find arguments for and against just every diet out there. Just try it out and see how you feel. I find it really funny when some people develop theories about why the raw diet isn't good, and they did not even test it themselves

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Too often people seek stats to justify sticking to a diet their body has already proclaimed as pure crap.

Too often people also seek stats to justify sticking to a diet their body has already proclaimed as pure success.

[Fullcrum]

Haha Ticki.

Thanks for the input guys! Steve

I know very well how scientific information can be biased. It was complex information so I was looking for others' experiences on that website and with some of the data.

Steve, the problem is I only have anecdotes to go on. It seems almost universal that people receive massive benefits when going on 100% raw vegan diets. However, I am concerned in this case with the sustainability of the diet longterm and of potential longterm consequences.

Blah blah blah big words blah blah more big words blah blah. There.

All I have to go on in these longterm cases are anecdotes. We've got the athlete Tim VanOrden from (Tim VanOrden's Running Raw Project), probably among my biggest inspirations besides Steve and the Boutenkos, eating 100% raw vegan. Tim has been raw vegan for a couple years and vegan for a couple more without using supplements. And he seems quite healthy.

This is simply a matter of conflicting information. I will definitely go 100% raw when I first get the opportunity, but until then, I want to build the most complete picture of what I'm getting myself into.

PS. It appears I was wrong about beyondveg being totally unbiased. They are promoting the paleolithic diet. Well whatever.

One argument never covered on the website is that even though people may have evolved to eat meat, it may not necessarily be the best, most optimal, most fitting way for humans to live.

And that can only be determined through personal experimentation.

This website (Raw Food Diet) shows children being raised 100% raw vegan with no signs of deficiencies. These people really do not seem like the type of people who'd lie or hide stuff. Children from BIRTH raised raw vegan without B-12 deficiencies or whatnot. And the guys got good muscle and health for 57.

PPS. Steve, or anyone really - how do you reconcile the massive conflicts in longterm anecdotes when deciding something as important as diet? Really, how do you do it? I intuit this may relate to alignment with truth, love and power.

PPPS. Neutral - that strikes me as a good attitude. Congratulations.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by TooTicki

On the subject of veganism and B12 deffiency I thought of this longish anecdote that is well worth the read.

I read this before. He makes a good point about the problem of coupling your career to a particular diet and then feeling you need to defend the diet even if it no longer serves you.

A problem I had in understanding the raw diet is that it isn't a specific diet at all -- it's a whole class of different diets. Popular variations include 80/10/10 (mostly fruit), raw gourmet, greens-centered, high-cal from fat, high juicing, superfoods-based, etc. To say that someone suffered from eating raw doesn't mean much because there are lots of ways to screw it up. You can also end up malnourished on a non-raw diet and then recover by by correcting the deficiency. Socially we have more practice eating non-raw, so cooked food screw ups are more obvious.

I'd love to see some typical daily food logs from the raw foodists who suffered major healthy problems. I've seen food logs from multiple people going raw who are consuming only 500 calories a day -- doesn't surprise me when they quit within a matter of weeks.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

One argument never covered on the website is that even though people may have evolved to eat meat, it may not necessarily be the best, most optimal, most fitting way for humans to live.

That's called the Opportunistic Feeder Theory. The section of the bottom of this web page does a good job of explaining why it's bunk to assume that we should eat a certain way just because we can:
John Coleman: Comparative Anatomy & Taxonomy - Tierversuchsgegner

We can drink large quantities of alcohol too. Doesn't mean we should.

[igmistro]

One other point to consider is that these types of articles, both anti or pro raw, are almost always guilty of a common reasoning flaw. They find an extreme and then disprove it.

Since you specifically singled out chapter 6 I'll give you an example from there. Often chimps are sited as omnivorous because they occasionally eat meat. First of all, there are different types of chimps, Bonobo, which are closer to humans then the Common Chimp for example, are considered primarily frugivores and have a nonviolent matriarchal society where everyone is equal. On the other hand every time I take my dogs for a walk they almost always stop and eat some tall grass along the way. They love avocados. One of their favorite treats is leftover avocado/cucumber/tomato salads I make. Would that make dogs omnivorous as well? Yes there are extremists... I can live on a diet of cold pressed oil and sprouts (at least for a while) and call myself raw vegan, but would that make me a good example by which to judge all raw vegans?

[Fullcrum]

Awesome link Steve!

True, igmistro, the article references extreme fruitarians.

And dogs and cats, which are carnivorous by nature, do eat grass naturally. Raw foodists have speculated it's for the fiber to get rid of stuff inside them. Cats spit the grass up with other stuff after a couple minutes.

[Savage]

I've connected with a number of raw foodists so far. To date I don't recall encountering anyone who ate a version of the diet that seemed sensible to me (mainly meaning adequate calories) and said they suffered serious health problems from it. Maybe they're hiding it, but I've seen no evidence of that.

Unfortunately I have seen evidence that a lot of people turn raw foodism into new careers after just a few months on the diet. They feel so good they decide it's their calling to coach others to go raw, or they write their own books about it. But they really haven't been doing it long enough to be in a position to overcome all the hurdles. When they start stumbling, they put on a false front because they need the income. I wouldn't blame the diet for that. You see a very similar pattern in the fields of Internet marketing and blogging, where newbies who succeed (but don't really know why) turn around and sell tons of bad advice. Then their students fail.

The only problem I had so far with my own raw diet was when I experimented with raw cacao. I found that when I ate it every day for several days and then stopped, I got a mild headache and felt more fatigued, which to me indicates a drug withdrawal effect. This cleared up when I cut back on the cacao. I posted about this yesterday in a raw forum here, and the feedback made sense to me:
What's the truth about cacao? - Give it to me Raw

I'll have the chance to meet lots more raw foodists when I go to the Raw Spirit Festival Sep 12-14, including many people who've been doing it for years.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

Cats spit the grass up with other stuff after a couple minutes.

Not necessarily. They often eat grass and then vomit it out, together with the hair they have swallowed when washing themselves. But they also eat grass without vomiting, at least some of them. The cat I share my house with often eats grass for the sake of it, without vomiting. She also loves to eat other greens, like purslane and lettuce, and she's fond of cucumber too. When I don't pay attention she eats the stuff out of my plate.

Sorry for going off-topic

[Fullcrum]

Interesting Rose. I wonder if big cats do the same.

Question to Steve or anyone else: Does maca actually affect sexual performance? What effects have you noticed on maca? Goji berries?

I've heard that superfoods are a scam and are no better than "normal" fruits and vegetables but marketed and sold at a much higher price.

Maybe, sometime, you could blog about the effects you've noticed on supposed "superfoods" and help to educate us on whether they work or are really a scam in your experience.

[igmistro]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Not necessarily. They often eat grass and then vomit it out, together with the hair they have swallowed when washing themselves. But they also eat grass without vomiting, at least some of them. The cat I share my house with often eats grass for the sake of it, without vomiting. She also loves to eat other greens, like purslane and lettuce, and she's fond of cucumber too. When I don't pay attention she eats the stuff out of my plate.

Sorry for going off-topic

I don't think it's off topic... It's a good illustration that using statements like - chimps are omnivores - to disprove conclusions of a science (yes you can get a degree in it) of comparative physiology is at best short sighted. Humans are frugivores according to this science. Just because we can survive on meat, doesn't necessarily mean we aren't biologically adapted to eat something else.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by igmistro

Just because we can survive on meat, doesn't necessarily mean we aren't biologically adapted to eat something else.

Ah, yes, I get your point, and I agree with you.

Cats and dogs can live on a vegan diet, there are people who feed their pets vegan food and the pets are doing fine. However, I think I can safely claim that they're not built to live on a vegan diet.

All cats I know also love chocolate, and horses love to eat sugar. Does this mean they're meant to eat some? I doubt that! Chocolate is even a poison for cats.

Even cows survive eating animal products. Are cows omnivores?

[Fullcrum]

True, true Rose!~

So how do we determine what's best?

The best we have so far is simply personal experimentation.

[igmistro]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

True, true Rose!~
So how do we determine what's best?
The best we have so far is simply personal experimentation.

The problem with personal experimentation is that we only have one life. And since the real test of a diet is - will it keep you healthy and vital into your old age, then each person can only test one theory before they die. Therefore we have to look at it as a species not as individuals.

Of course, we can always tell if a certain diet makes us feel better in the short term, but then so do many unhealthy practices like alcohol and drugs for example. If you had some way of knowing, would you sacrifice the last 20 years of your life because a certain diet made you feel better for the first 80 years?

[Fullcrum]

Hey Steve, I was searching through your archives and came upon this.

Health Studies Are Worthless to Those Who Care About Health

Thanks Steve. Haha. The issue is basically solved. May this be a guide to those who place their full reliance on health studies for generations to come.