High Quality Nutritional Supplement

[Lil Chris]

Can some one recommend a high quality nutritional supplement...? I have tried a product called Reliv and although the taste is somewhat to be desired, In the short time I took it I liked the results. But, they are a distributer type company, so dealing with the "sales" people is not pleasant.

Would maybe juicing be more appropriate...?

[joey m]

If you are looking for the best multivitamin out there, I'd recommend VITAFORCE from Dynamics of Nature. It actually gives you all the nutrients you need for a day from food. There is nothing better than this one.

My second choice, is you are looking for a less expensive alternative, I'd recommend Dr. Fuhrman's Gentle Care. It, like VITAFORCE, has no unhealthy megadoses and follows the studies as to which levels of each nutrient is optimal.

Also, neither of these products as preformed Vitamin A or isolated beta carotene -- each of which is not optimal in a nutritional supplement.

I have not found any other supplements that fit all the requirements of a beneficial multivitamin according to the most recent studies.

Hope that helps.

[Lil Chris]

Thanks Joey,
Do you have a link to a reputable supplier...

Thanks,
Lil Chris

[igmistro]

I have a different point of view to offer you. According to my understanding of human physiology, the body is unable to utilize inorganic compounds. I don't know of any supplement currently available that has organic compounds in it. With that said, I believe you'll get more use out of an apple that any vitamin supplement out there.

Btw, I want to be clear that I'm talking about organic chemistry here not organically grown. As an example, celery has lots of organic sodium in it. Sodium in celery is easily usable by the body because it is chelated to a protein. However, if you take that same sodium, extract it from celery and separate it from its protein, (which is what supplements actually do) the body can no longer use it and it will be expelled in urine.

[Lil Chris]

Originally Posted by igmistro

I have a different point of view to offer you. According to my understanding of human physiology, the body is unable to utilize inorganic compounds. I don't know of any supplement currently available that has organic compounds in it. With that said, I believe you'll get more use out of an apple that any vitamin supplement out there.

Btw, I want to be clear that I'm talking about organic chemistry here not organically grown. As an example, celery has lots of organic sodium in it. Sodium in celery is easily usable by the body because it is chelated to a protein. However, if you take that same sodium, extract it from celery and separate it from its protein, (which is what supplements actually do) the body can no longer use it and it will be expelled in urine.

Thank you very much igmistro,
I am of the same thinking, albeit not as precise as you, but along the lines of nature knows best kind of thing...

[joey m]

That is exactly my thinking too. That is why I was so happy when I found VITAFORCE. IT is the only one that provides all the nutrients from actual food. It is not like those other supplements that claim food form nutrients -- it is actually a scoop of various foods that give you all the nutrients you need in a day. The food ingredients are stuff like organic spirulina, chlorella, grass juice powders, vegetables, fruits etc.

Trust me when I say few people are more picky than me about this stuff.

Here is the website:

Dynamics of Nature

And here is where I buy it over the internet -- they have always been very good:
Organic Health and Beauty

[Savage]

Actually there are lots of organic, food-based supplements now, especially various green powders. Whole Foods stocks a pretty large collection. You can probably find some on Amazon.com too. There's really nothing unique about it.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

Can some one recommend a high quality nutritional supplement...? I have tried a product called Reliv and although the taste is somewhat to be desired, In the short time I took it I liked the results. But, they are a distributer type company, so dealing with the "sales" people is not pleasant.

Would maybe juicing be more appropriate...?

Yeah, sure......




* Amaranth (Amaranthus cruentus)
* Beet greens (Beta vulgaris subsp. vulgaris)
* Broccoli Rabe (Brassica rapa subsp. rapa)
* Bitterleaf (Vernonia calvoana)
* Bok choy (Brassica rapa Chinensis group)
* Brussels sprout (Brassica oleracea Gemmifera group)
* Cabbage (Brassica oleracea Capitata group)
* Catsear (Hypochaeris radicata)
* Celtuce (Lactuca sativa var. asparagina)
* Ceylon spinach (Basella alba)
* Chicory (Cichorium intybus)
* Chinese Mallow (Malva verticillata)
* Chrysanthemum leaves (Chrysanthemum coronarium)
* Corn salad (Valerianella locusta)
* Cress (Lepidium sativum)
* Dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)
* Endive (Cichorium endivia)
* Epazote (Chenopodium ambrosioides)
* Fat hen (Chenopodium album)
* Fiddlehead (Pteridium aquilinum, Athyrium esculentum)
* Fluted pumpkin (Telfairia occidentalis)
* Golden samphire (Inula crithmoides)
* Good King Henry (Chenopodium bonus-henricus)
* Ice plant (Mesembryanthemum crystallinum)
* Jambu (Acmella oleracea)
* Kai-lan (Brassica rapa Alboglabra group)
* Komatsuna (Brassica rapa Pervidis or Komatsuna group)
* Kuka (Adansonia spp.)
* Lagos bologi (Talinum fruticosum)
* Land cress (Barbarea verna)
* Lettuce (Lactuca sativa)
* Lizard's tail (Houttuynia cordata)
* Melokhia (Corchorus olitorius, Corchorus capsularis)
* Mizuna greens (Brassica rapa Nipposinica group)
* Mustard (Sinapis alba)
* Napa/Chinese Cabbage (Brassica rapa Pekinensis group)
* New Zealand Spinach (Tetragonia tetragonioides)
* Orache (Atriplex hortensis)
* Pea sprouts/leaves (Pisum sativum)
* Polk (Phytolacca americana)
* Radicchio (Cichorium intybus)
* Garden Rocket (Eruca sativa)
* Samphire (Crithmum maritimum)
* Sea beet (Beta vulgaris subsp. maritima)
* Seakale (Crambe maritima)
* Sierra Leone bologi (Crassocephalum spp.)
* Soko (Celosia argentea)
* Sorrel (Rumex acetosa)
* Spinach (Spinacia oleracea)
* Summer purslane (Portulaca oleracea)
* Swiss chard (Beta vulgaris subsp. cicla var. flavescens)
* Tatsoi (Brassica rapa Rosularis group)
* Turnip greens (Brassica rapa Rapifera group)
* Watercress (Nasturtium officinale)
* Water spinach (Ipomoea aquatica)
* Winter purslane (Claytonia perfoliata)
* Yau choy (Brassica napus)
* Armenian cucumber (Cucumis melo Flexuosus group)
* Eggplant or Aubergine (Solanum melongena)
* Avocado (Persea americana)
* Bell pepper (Capsicum annuum)
* Bitter melon (Momordica charantia)
* Caigua (Cyclanthera pedata)
* Cape Gooseberry (Physalis peruviana)
* Cayenne pepper (Capsicum frutescens)
* Chayote (Sechium edule)
* Chili pepper (Capsicum annuum Longum group)
* Cucumber (Cucumis sativus)
* Globe Artichoke (Cynara scolymus)
* Luffa (Luffa acutangula, Luffa aegyptiaca)
* Malabar gourd (Cucurbita ficifolia)
* Parwal (Trichosanthes dioica)
* Perennial cucumber (Coccinia grandis)
* Pumpkin (Cucurbita maxima, Cucurbita pepo)
* Pattypan squash
* Snake gourd (Trichosanthes cucumerina)
* Squash (aka marrow) (Cucurbita pepo)
* Sweetcorn (Zea mays)
* Sweet pepper (Capsicum annuum Grossum group)
* Tinda (Praecitrullus fistulosus)
* Tomato (Solanum lycopersicum)
* Tomatillo (Physalis philadelphica)
* Winter melon (Benincasa hispida)
* West Indian gherkin (Cucumis anguria)
* Zucchini or Courgette (Cucurbita pepo)
* American groundnut (Apios americana)
* Azuki bean (Vigna angularis)
* Black-eyed pea (Vigna unguiculata subsp. unguiculata)
* Chickpea (Cicer arietinum)
* Drumstick (Moringa oleifera)
* Dolichos bean (Lablab purpureus)
* Fava bean (Vicia faba)
* French bean (Phaseolus vulgaris)
* Guar (Cyamopsis tetragonoloba)
* Horse gram (Macrotyloma uniflorum)
* Indian pea (Lathyrus sativus)
* Lentil (Lens culinaris)
* Moth bean (Vigna acontifolia)
* Mung bean (Vigna radiata)
* Okra (Abelmoschus esculentus)
* Pea (Pisum sativum)
* Peanut (Arachis hypogaea)
* Pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan)
* Rice bean (Vigna umbellatta)
* Runner bean (Phaseolus coccineus)
* Soybean (Glycine max)
* Tarwi (tarhui, chocho; Lupinus mutabilis)
* Tepary bean (Phaseolus acutifolius)
* Urad bean (Vigna mungo)
* Velvet bean (Mucuna pruriens)
* Winged bean (Psophocarpus tetragonolobus)
* Yardlong bean (Vigna unguiculata subsp. sesquipedalis)
* Asparagus (Asparagus officinalis)
* Cardoon (Cynara cardunculus)
* Celeriac (Apium graveolens var. rapaceum)
* Celery (Apium graveolens)
* Elephant Garlic (Allium ampeloprasum var. ampeloprasum)
* Florence fennel (Foeniculum vulgare var. dulce)
* Garlic (Allium sativum)
* Kohlrabi (Brassica oleracea Gongylodes group)
* Kurrat (Allium ampeloprasum var. kurrat)
* Leek (Allium porrum)
* Lotus root (Nelumbo nucifera)
* Nopal (Opuntia ficus-indica)
* Onion (Allium cepa)
* Prussian asparagus (Ornithogalum pyrenaicum)
* Shallot (Allium cepa Aggregatum group)
* Welsh onion (Allium fistulosum)
* Wild leek (Allium tricoccum)
* Acorn squash (Cucurbita pepo)
* Ahipa (Pachyrhizus ahipa)
* Arracacha (Arracacia xanthorrhiza))
* Bamboo shoot
* Beetroot (Beta vulgaris subsp. vulgaris)
* Black cumin (Bunium persicum)
* Burdock (Arctium)
* Broadleaf arrowhead (Sagittaria latifolia)
* Camas (Camassia)
* Canna (Canna spp.)
* Carrot (Daucus carota)
* Cassava (Manihot esculenta)
* Chinese artichoke (Stachys affinis)
* Daikon (Raphanus sativus Longipinnatus group)
* Earthnut pea (Lathyrus tuberosus)
* Elephant Foot yam (Amorphophallus_paeoniifolius)
* Ensete (Ensete ventricosum)
* Ginger (Zingiber officinale)
* Gobo (Arctium lappa)
* Hamburg parsley (Petroselinum crispum var. tuberosum)
* Jerusalem artichoke (Helianthus tuberosus)
* Jícama (Pachyrhizus erosus)
* Parsnip (Pastinaca sativa)
* Pignut (Conopodium majus)
* Plectranthus (Plectranthus spp.)
* Potato (Solanum tuberosum)
* Prairie turnip (Psoralea esculenta)
* Radish (Raphanus sativus)
* Rutabaga (Brassica napus Napobrassica group)
* Salsify (Tragopogon porrifolius)
* Scorzonera (Scorzonera hispanica)
* Skirret (Sium sisarum)
* Sweet Potato (Kumara)
* Taro (Colocasia esculenta)
* Ti (Cordyline fruticosa)
* Tigernut (Cyperus esculentus)
* Turnip (Brassica rapa Rapifera group)
* Ulluco (Ullucus tuberosus)
* Wasabi (Wasabia japonica)
* Water chestnut (Eleocharis dulcis)
* Yacón (Smallanthus sonchifolius)
* Yam (Dioscorea spp.)
* Aonori (Monostroma spp., Enteromorpha spp.)
* Carola (Callophyllis variegata)
* Dabberlocks or badderlocks (Alaria esculenta)
* Dulse (Palmaria palmata)
* Hijiki (Hizikia fusiformis)
* Kombu (Laminaria japonica)
* Mozuku (Cladosiphon okamuranus)
* Laver (Porphyra spp.) (nori in Japan, gim in Korea)
* Ogonori (Gracilaria spp.)
* Sea grape (Caulerpa spp.)
* Sea lettuce (Ulva lactuca)
* Wakame (Undaria pinnatifida)


I'm joking,,,,,, but then again..........

[igmistro]

Well... It seems I have to correct myself here... Apparently there has been progress made in the last several years, where the supplement companies finally started to realize that there is in fact a big difference between whole foods and the old segmented view of nutrition.

Therefore I have to rephrase my earlier post to state that if you do believe that your diet is insufficient to meet you needs for nutrients, then make sure that the supplement you chose contains whole foods and not just vitamins and mineral in an inorganic form.

[joey m]

Actually there are lots of organic, food-based supplements now, especially various green powders. Whole Foods stocks a pretty large collection. You can probably find some on Amazon.com too. There's really nothing unique about it.

I wish this was true, but unfortunately it isn't. There are no other green food powders that serve as a multivitamin. Most particularly, none of the ones at Whole Foods fits that bill. This is clear from their labels. The only one I have seen that actually has all the nutrients other than VITAFORCE is VEGA, but VEGA has all the nutrients in synthetic form - they are all added in just like any other vitamin and mineral pill. Plus, their nutrient ratios aren't good.

As for other food based supplements, yes they exist -- such as New Chapter. But again, you are not getting all the benefits from actual foods, and the nutrient ratios are nowhere near ideal.

In case you disagree Steve, I'd love for you to show me some green food powders that fit the same bill as VITAFORCE. I think I have seen everyone of them out there, and still not found one that is remotely similar.....

[Andrew Michaels]

Nutritional supplements, whether you're looking for health or muscle, are a complete waste of your time, your money, and your health.

Nutrients out of the proportion that nature intended in fruits and vegetables are pretty harmful, as demonstrated by vitamin A studies which show an increased cancer risk. Read here for more info.

If you think you need protein supplementation to build muscle, you really don't. Plenty of protein is in the food you eat. Even white rice has enough protein to build muscle. The only thing that builds muscle is resistance applied over time to muscles, not extra protein. No scientific study has ever shown a percentage of protein over 10 percent of calories consumed that had any measurable effect on muscle building.

For info about muscle building and protein, read this.

[makessense]

What about vitamins made from "Nature Made"? Are they ok?

[Andrew Michaels]

No. All the same problems remain. If at some point the materials that go into these pills and gels and liquids were once whole fresh foods, they certainly are not now. They have been dehydrated and had their fiber removed. Science shows us that the oxidation process really messes with the nutrients that remain. Such things aren't really fit for the body.

Not to mention that regardless of the harm they're causing, they're completely superfluous. Stop eating things that impair nutrient absorption (fat being the biggest offender) and start eatng tons of fruits and vegetables that will supply your body with more than enough for its needs. Simple as that.

Check out the pages I posted for more info.

Originally Posted by makessense

What about vitamins made from "Nature Made"? Are they ok?

[Keith]

Can anyone vouch for or against Juice Plus?

[makessense]

Originally Posted by Andrew Michaels

Nutritional supplements, whether you're looking for health or muscle, are a complete waste of your time, your money, and your health.

Nutrients out of the proportion that nature intended in fruits and vegetables are pretty harmful, as demonstrated by vitamin A studies which show an increased cancer risk. Read here for more info.

If you think you need protein supplementation to build muscle, you really don't. Plenty of protein is in the food you eat. Even white rice has enough protein to build muscle. The only thing that builds muscle is resistance applied over time to muscles, not extra protein. No scientific study has ever shown a percentage of protein over 10 percent of calories consumed that had any measurable effect on muscle building.

For info about muscle building and protein, read this.

When it comes to food, I want it to be as simple as possible, so I've been looking for something like this. Thank you very much. I can get all the necessary nutrients in only vegetables/fruits and some seeds/nuts? How long have you been on the diet? What do you usually eat daily? Thanks again for the help/feedback.

[joey m]

I just read the article linked to by Andrew Michaels. That article is unfortunately very misleading and poorly researched -- there are only three footnotes in the whole thing.

The article quotes Dr. Fuhrman, but gives a very misleading idea of his thoughts on supplementation. Dr. Fuhrman is a big believer in supplementation because he adamantly believes, as I do, that diet alone will not prevent nutritional deficiencies. He believes it is very common to have deficiencies in B-12, Vitamin D, zinc and others. That is why he manufactures and sells his own vitamin and mineral supplement called Gentle Care.

While I agree and pointed out already that Vitamin A has potential toxicity, this is with preformed vitamin a and isolated betacarotene. Additional mixed carotenoids added in to the diet has only been found to be beneficial -- particularly for those who do not already consume a high produce-based diet.

Also, eating fat does not limit nutrient intake. In fact, eating high quality fats improves absorption of all the fat soluble vitamins.

There is just a ton of misinformation in that article.

Also, the fact that wild animals get all the nutrients they need is in part because they don't wash their produce, and eat insects along with their diets. That allows them proper levels of B-12. We don't do this, and therefore need to worry about long-term deficiencies in B-12. Depending on where you live, and your own personal absorption rates, Vitamin D may need to be supplemented as well, particularly if you are vegan.

BAsically, I couldn't disagree more with the statements made in that very poorly researched article.

The whole concept of super foods being a total waste of money is also an odd statement. Their nutritional density is amazing, and most of them have the fiber intact and have the nutritional analysis done after the drying process. So I'm not sure how his claim can have any basis in fact. The only ones that don't have the fiber are the juice powders -- but even those can be quite dense nutritionally.

Further, studies document widespread deficiencies in vitamin d and b-12. This is not a fad, it is simply what the science shows. While mangosteen may be a fad, nutrients are things that we actually need to survive. It is unhealthy to have too much of any one nutrient, but it is also potentially fatal (over the long-term) to be deficient in key nutrients.

The only thing I agree with in that article is that you don't want to take excessive quantities of nutrients. You only want to take a sufficient quantity to ensure no deficiencies -- and you want your supplement to account for the nutrients that you commonly get in your diet already. That is what Dr. Fuhrman recommends, and I agree with him, which is why I only ever recommend the two supplements I mentioned above.

[joey m]

Keith -- Juice Plus is not worth the money. It simply is an attempt to replace servings of fruits and vegetables, and has no other merit. It is very expensive for what it offers. I'd recommend instead taking a high quality vitamin and mineral supplement like the one I recommended, and focus on eating fruits and vegetables -- juice plus offers nothing you can't already get from your diet.

[Andrew Michaels]

I don't wish to drag this out into an ongoing argument that will satisfy neither of us, but to address a few of your points:

I never said fat limits the uptake of nutrients, I said when fat is eaten at above 10 percent of calories it limits the absorption of nutrients. Same thing with sugars and oxygen. Fat itself is critical for the body. No question. You just need to eat the right amount. This point connects to the B12 question.

It's true that many people have B12 deficiencies. But those deficiencies appear in meat eaters who are taking in tons of B12 as well as vegetarians and vegans.

In all cases B12 deficiency is usually only a problem when you lack the "intrinsic factor" chemical, which causes people to be unable to absorb B12.

Intrinsic factor production in the body is reduced as dietary fat increases. There are tests to see how good your absorption is. If you don't have enough no amount of additional B12 supplementation will help. Excessive fats also block the B12 uptake sites in the intestines.

The other factor is B12 production. There are colonies of B12 producing bacteria that live in your gut and produce all the B12 your body could need. The problem is that they feed off of carbohydrates. When fat intake goes up to the 30-40 percent of a SAD diet eater, or the 50-60 percent of most raw food diet eaters, you're essentially starving them, and production goes down.

If your a meat eater or a vegetarian or a raw fooder you're at risk for deficiency.

When people go on water fasts, their B12 deficiencies tend to disappear becuase the fat disappears from their diet and they're living off their reserves.

Finally, "normal" B12 levels as used by doctors are artificially high. The reason is that most of the food people eat are enriched cereals, breads, pasta, etc that have had B12 added to them.

Compare a human on a natural diet to person eating "supplemental B12 food" at every meal, and your idea of normal will surely be off.

Every other nutrient should be taken in through fresh fruits and vegetables, which are the best, not the highest concentrated, sources of those vitamins. Vitamin D needs to be gotten through exposure to the sun, which everyone should doing.

All of those artificial nutrients your taking in are at best superfluous and at worst harmful. Use the sun, use nature's vitamins in fruits and vegetables.

Thank you for your comments though. I'll look into possibly adding some more sources to my article in the future.It was not meant to address B12, but I will be creating an article on that in the future.

Originally Posted by joey m

I just read the article linked to by Andrew Michaels. That article is unfortunately very misleading and poorly researched -- there are only three footnotes in the whole thing.

The article quotes Dr. Fuhrman, but gives a very misleading idea of his thoughts on supplementation. Dr. Fuhrman is a big believer in supplementation because he adamantly believes, as I do, that diet alone will not prevent nutritional deficiencies. He believes it is very common to have deficiencies in B-12, Vitamin D, zinc and others. That is why he manufactures and sells his own vitamin and mineral supplement called Gentle Care.

While I agree and pointed out already that Vitamin A has potential toxicity, this is with preformed vitamin a and isolated betacarotene. Additional mixed carotenoids added in to the diet has only been found to be beneficial -- particularly for those who do not already consume a high produce-based diet.

Also, eating fat does not limit nutrient intake. In fact, eating high quality fats improves absorption of all the fat soluble vitamins.

There is just a ton of misinformation in that article.

Also, the fact that wild animals get all the nutrients they need is in part because they don't wash their produce, and eat insects along with their diets. That allows them proper levels of B-12. We don't do this, and therefore need to worry about long-term deficiencies in B-12. Depending on where you live, and your own personal absorption rates, Vitamin D may need to be supplemented as well, particularly if you are vegan.

BAsically, I couldn't disagree more with the statements made in that very poorly researched article.

The whole concept of super foods being a total waste of money is also an odd statement. Their nutritional density is amazing, and most of them have the fiber intact and have the nutritional analysis done after the drying process. So I'm not sure how his claim can have any basis in fact. The only ones that don't have the fiber are the juice powders -- but even those can be quite dense nutritionally.

Further, studies document widespread deficiencies in vitamin d and b-12. This is not a fad, it is simply what the science shows. While mangosteen may be a fad, nutrients are things that we actually need to survive. It is unhealthy to have too much of any one nutrient, but it is also potentially fatal (over the long-term) to be deficient in key nutrients.

The only thing I agree with in that article is that you don't want to take excessive quantities of nutrients. You only want to take a sufficient quantity to ensure no deficiencies -- and you want your supplement to account for the nutrients that you commonly get in your diet already. That is what Dr. Fuhrman recommends, and I agree with him, which is why I only ever recommend the two supplements I mentioned above.

[Andrew Michaels]

Originally Posted by makessense

When it comes to food, I want it to be as simple as possible, so I've been looking for something like this. Thank you very much. I can get all the necessary nutrients in only vegetables/fruits and some seeds/nuts? How long have you been on the diet? What do you usually eat daily? Thanks again for the help/feedback.

Please visit my site for all the information you need on my diet. Better yet, check out the book, "The 80/10/10 diet" by Dr. Douglas Graham, which goes far more in depth on how and why to eat this way.

[joey m]

I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Your words were far better than the article you posted -- I mean that as a compliment to you.

That being said, I do not agree that intrinsic factor is almost always the factor in b-12 deficiency, nor do I agree that there must be a limit on 10% of calories from fat to have appropriate levels of b-12.

While intrinsic factor can certainly play a role (and often does), typically it is more of a deficiency of utilizeable b12. The best sources of absorbable b12 comes from dairy and fortified foods. For many people, the stomach acidity is not sufficient to rip the b12 out from the muscle fibers in meat. Now I personally don't eat dairy nor do I think of it as a health food, so I wouldn't use that as a source. Typically also, fortified foods are not health foods either.

Once a good form of b12 is supplemented in to the diet, the b12 deficiency will tend to go away. That is a great sign that supplementing it in to your diet is a nice insurance policy.

As for vitamin D, many people live in areas (in fact the bulk of people living in the United States and Europe) where even with sun exposure, you cannot get sufficient levels of vitamin d from the sun during a large portion of the year. People living in these areas need to be taking in supplemental vitamin d.

You may say that vitamin b12 levels used by doctors are artificially high, but ultimately the big problems come in with deficiency -- problems such as neurological issues, heart issues and death. The doctors' version of normal levels of b12 have shown no negative effects. Why run the risk on this one?

The intestinal production of b12 is a very unreliable source for most people, particularly since it is made too low in the intestinal tract to assure good absorption up through the bloodstream.

What you are saying may work well for you, particularly if you are careful to have blood tests done to ensure your blood levels of these nutrients are sufficient. But for most people, it is safer and better to take a good nutritional supplement to make sure no deficiencies occur. But I do wholeheartedly agree that most supplements out there are excessive and likely unhealthy. That is why I think it is worthwhile to find a good one -- and there are few of those out there.

[Andrew Michaels]

I think our differences of opinion stem from a differences in our view on diet and lifestyle.

Perhaps you are right that in that most people content with what they're doing should supplement to avoid having to make major lifestyle and diet changes.

I don't see that as an option. A raw food diet cured my of my colitis, which no cooked food diet plan, including Dr. Fuhrman's, could do. Only when I corrected my lifestyle and diet did I create a situation in which my body could heal itself.

Today I've got far more energy than I ever did. I'm training for a marathon, which I once would have though impossible in my sick state. I used to take B12 supplements, but now I test just fine for B12. I live in Connecticut, hardly the sunny capital of the world.

I expose myself to the sun every day, preferably my whole body in warmer weather. In the winter, there is a limited window, but head out to the south side of a building around noon and you can get enough Vitamin D to keep you going through the winter. Better yet, during the winter take a vacation to somewhere sunny, if you have the means, to supplement your Vitamin D intake.

Perhaps we can just agree to disagree. Nice talking to you about nutrition, though. Most people don't really follow the particulars.

Originally Posted by joey m

I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Your words were far better than the article you posted -- I mean that as a compliment to you.

That being said, I do not agree that intrinsic factor is almost always the factor in b-12 deficiency, nor do I agree that there must be a limit on 10% of calories from fat to have appropriate levels of b-12.

While intrinsic factor can certainly play a role (and often does), typically it is more of a deficiency of utilizeable b12. The best sources of absorbable b12 comes from dairy and fortified foods. For many people, the stomach acidity is not sufficient to rip the b12 out from the muscle fibers in meat. Now I personally don't eat dairy nor do I think of it as a health food, so I wouldn't use that as a source. Typically also, fortified foods are not health foods either.

Once a good form of b12 is supplemented in to the diet, the b12 deficiency will tend to go away. That is a great sign that supplementing it in to your diet is a nice insurance policy.

As for vitamin D, many people live in areas (in fact the bulk of people living in the United States and Europe) where even with sun exposure, you cannot get sufficient levels of vitamin d from the sun during a large portion of the year. People living in these areas need to be taking in supplemental vitamin d.

You may say that vitamin b12 levels used by doctors are artificially high, but ultimately the big problems come in with deficiency -- problems such as neural issues, heart issues and death. The doctors' version of normal levels of b12 have shown no negative effects. Why run the risk on this one?

The intestinal production of b12 is a very unreliable source for most people, particularly since it is made too low in the intestinal tract to assure good absorption up through the bloodstream.

What you are saying may work well for you, particularly if you are careful to have blood tests done to ensure your blood levels of these nutrients are sufficient. But for most people, it is safer and better to take a good nutritional supplement to make sure no deficiencies occur. But I do wholeheartedly agree that most supplements out there are excessive and likely unhealthy. That is why I think it is worthwhile to find a good one -- and there are few of those out there.

[joey m]

Fair enough. Always nice having discussions with a gentleman, even if we disagree about some of the stuff.

I commend you on your health improvements. I would mention that CT is one of the places that does not get sufficient sun year round for vitamin d production (although if you are getting down south for trips, I'm sure you are fine).

Here is some brief discussion of this point from the National Institute of Health:

Season, geographic latitude, time of day, cloud cover, smog, skin melanin content, and sunscreen are among the factors that affect UV radiation exposure and vitamin D synthesis [28]. The UV energy above 42 degrees north latitude (a line approximately between the northern border of California and Boston) is insufficient for cutaneous vitamin D synthesis from November through February [6]; in far northern latitudes, this reduced intensity lasts for up to 6 months. Latitudes below 34 degrees north (a line between Los Angeles and Columbia, South Carolina) allow for cutaneous production of vitamin D throughout the year [14]

You can find this at the following link (including the studies cited by them):

Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet: Vitamin D

I'm also glad you are having your b12 levels tested -- I think that is a very important precaution if you are not taking supplements regularly. I hope you are also testing Vitamin D levels from time to time as well, just as a precaution because of the northern latitude of where you live.

For the record, I believe that diet is the best way to go to promote longevity and health -- I just feel it is important for most people to take a high quality supplement to ensure no deficiencies arise.

As I said, pleasure talking with you.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Andrew Michaels

It's true that many people have B12 deficiencies. But those deficiencies appear in meat eaters who are taking in tons of B12 as well as vegetarians and vegans.

In all cases B12 deficiency is usually only a problem when you lack the "intrinsic factor" chemical, which causes people to be unable to absorb B12.

That sounds a bit suss to me. Sure, if people who are eating plenty of B12 suffer from B12 deficiency there's an absorbtion problem. But to extrapolate that to "all cases" ie. including people who may [b]not[b] be eating enough B12, seems pretty dodgy.

[Andrew Michaels]

I'm actually south of the 42 degree line that's a bit north of the the center of the state.

Originally Posted by joey m

Fair enough. Always nice having discussions with a gentleman, even if we disagree about some of the stuff.

I commend you on your health improvements. I would mention that CT is one of the places that does not get sufficient sun year round for vitamin d production (although if you are getting down south for trips, I'm sure you are fine).

Here is some brief discussion of this point from the National Institute of Health:


You can find this at the following link (including the studies cited by them):

Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet: Vitamin D

I'm also glad you are having your b12 levels tested -- I think that is a very important precaution if you are not taking supplements regularly. I hope you are also testing Vitamin D levels from time to time as well, just as a precaution because of the northern latitude of where you live.

For the record, I believe that diet is the best way to go to promote longevity and health -- I just feel it is important for most people to take a high quality supplement to ensure no deficiencies arise.

As I said, pleasure talking with you.