anyone tried the paleo diet?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Beuford

That would mean about 30% of their diet is insects. That is false. Try about 2% or less.

According to Jane Goodall's observations in the wild, their diet is about 4% insects and 1.4% meat.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Bleicke

But you need the healthy animal protein or you'll lose muscle and get all skinny and die. Also your organs need it.

What, are you serious? What research did you base this on? Have you tried observing actual vegans? Like the guy who made this very website? Does he look skinny and/or dead to you?

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by liamona

According to Jane Goodall's observations in the wild, their diet is about 4% insects and 1.4% meat.

But do these observations really change anything? The point was that chimpanzees do not eat a few pounds of insects a day, and even 4% does not come close to "a few pounds" as Bleicke claimed they eat. I wouldn't know how such number was obtained, if the researcher followed the chimpanzees around and weighed all the food they ate, or if it is just an estimate not even based on the weight of food, but it still does not justify that humans should eat a large amount of meat.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Beuford

I wouldn't know how such number was obtained, if the researcher followed the chimpanzees around and weighed all the food they ate

Something like that. You know, "field study" instead of wishing thinking that wants to paint them as these peaceable fruit-eating creatures. The real picture is a lot more complicated than that.

or if it is just an estimate not even based on the weight of food, but it still does not justify that humans should eat a large amount of meat.

That's true. There's plenty of other investigations like by Weston Price and research into hunter-gatherers that show that meat-eating is perfectly fine.

Chimps may not eat "pounds" of meat, but they eat enough bugs and flesh to qualify as omnivores.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

What, are you serious? What research did you base this on? Have you tried observing actual vegans? Like the guy who made this very website? Does he look skinny and/or dead to you?

No pressure or anything on Steve.

He's doing well but it's interesting that a lot of so-called vegan and raw-food "gurus" (especially women) are turning away from the diet.

There sure are a lot of ex-vegans on traditional diet forums. The ex-vegan and owner of the Let Them Eat Meat website has some entertaining posts on changing diet habits.

[liamona]

Do any of you paleo people subscribe to Arther De Vany's site? I wonder what you get for the $40/year membership.

[Excellent Lodestar]

Originally Posted by liamona

Do any of you paleo people subscribe to Arther De Vany's site? I wonder what you get for the $40/year membership.

I Don't subscribe. I stumbled on to his blog early on before he went to pay content. i believe the gist of his message as life, diet,exercise being all about Variation;never static.
here's a good overview of his principles:
Arthur Devany - Evolutionary Fitness a simple Overview | Zen to Fitness

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

here's a good overview of his principles:
Arthur Devany - Evolutionary Fitness a simple Overview | Zen to Fitness

That is a good overview, and I like his philosophy. Especially, "If busy, skip meals with little worry. You don’t have to have three square meals a day."

That's the beauty of this diet: very little hunger, and a lot of satiety. I often skip lunch because I've forgotten to eat. I like being free from hunger for hours at a time.

Thanks for the link to the Zen to Fitness blog. I'd never seen it before.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by liamona

Chimps may not eat "pounds" of meat, but they eat enough bugs and flesh to qualify as omnivores.

I don't disagree with that, and so based on that I argue humans can eat a small amount of meat but it is unnecessary. Based on anatomy only you would not be able to identify a human as an omnivore. Perhaps it is healthy for humans to eat a small amount of insects(still unnecessary). But the original point was that a paleo diet is often mistaked for a diet high in meat.

[Andrew Gubb]

If humans are omnivores because of insects, dogs are omnivores because of the vegetables they eat. Heck, cats eat grass too. And I don't see how cows can avoid accidentally eating insects from time to time, for instance.

[aelle]

An interesting and relevant article: PaleoVeganology: Whatever Happened To Omnivora?

So, what's this mean, bottom-line-wise, to the whole vegan-vs.-omni argument? There are two basic approaches we could take, but both end up at the same place.

One is to point out that almost all mammals are in some sense "omnivorous." The other is to point out that "omnivore" isn't a scientific term any more, and therefore isn't terribly useful. Both approaches stem from the fact that there's really no clear-cut dividing line between an "herbivore" and an "omnivore." In a real sense, the whole argument we've been having is irrelevant.

[Bleicke]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Have you tried observing actual vegans? Like the guy who made this very website? Does he look skinny and/or dead to you?

Very skinny.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Bleicke

Very skinny.

Well there's always this vegan (and he's raw for that matter): Raw-Vegan Transition Story - Shannon "The Braveheart"

Although, if you're classifying Steve as "very skinny" it seems your perceptions may be a little warped. I mean, there's no denying he's on the thin side of the spectrum, but "very skinny"? Come on.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by Bleicke

Very skinny.

So people who looks perfectly normal weight to you are very skinny? Do we all have to be body builders now?

[Bleicke]

Nobody says you have to do anything. I'm just saying I find Steve quite skinny. Not anorexic or anything, but he doesn't seem to have any muscle at all. At the same time, his wife is very overweight on the same vegan diet. So it just doesn't seem to generally lead to good body composition. Yes, that black dude is jacked.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by liamona

No pressure or anything on Steve.

He's doing well but it's interesting that a lot of so-called vegan and raw-food "gurus" (especially women) are turning away from the diet.

There sure are a lot of ex-vegans on traditional diet forums. The ex-vegan and owner of the Let Them Eat Meat website has some entertaining posts on changing diet habits.

Interesting, though a lot of meat eaters turn away from the diet too!

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by Bleicke

Nobody says you have to do anything.

That's good, as long as we're not dying from animal protein deficiency.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Bleicke

Nobody says you have to do anything. I'm just saying I find Steve quite skinny. Not anorexic or anything, but he doesn't seem to have any muscle at all. At the same time, his wife is very overweight on the same vegan diet. So it just doesn't seem to generally lead to good body composition. Yes, that black dude is jacked.

They're not on the same diet.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Interesting, though a lot of meat eaters turn away from the diet too!

Maybe so, but none of them have blogs that are as well-written and humorous as this one! A lot of the comments to the blog posts are priceless too, from both sides.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by liamona

Maybe so, but none of them have blogs that are as well-written and humorous as this one! A lot of the comments to the blog posts are priceless too, from both sides.

I'll give you that, it's quite a good blog.

[Andrew Gubb]

Bleike and Co.: The Never Ending Protein Myth

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Beuford

That's good, as long as we're not dying from animal protein deficiency.

I've said it a million times, but I'll say it again for any new lurkers: what's really important is consuming enough fat-soluble nutrients like DHA, EPA and fat-soluble vitamins like A, D3, and K2 (the best sources are grass-fed animals).

In addition, the body needs fat in order to process nutrients like calcium and beta-carotene. This is why traditional peoples like the African Masai and isolated Swiss villagers in the Loetschental Valley had such excellent health consuming copious amounts of high-butterfat cow's milk from grass-fed cows.

[Beuford]

Fortunately all that is available in plants or can be created.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Fortunately all that is available in plants

Nope, they are only in animal foods, attached to the fats (usually saturated) that help the body assimilate them.

or can be created.

Sure, probably most of the time. And supplements help.

In related news, it's sad that Gwyneth Paltrow found out she has osteopenia, a brittle-bone disease precursor to osteoporosis.

She's avoided most meat except small amounts of fish and shunned dairy and fat for the last 11 years.

According to one article, she would drink smoothies made with almond milk, powdered supplements and blueberries and glasses of fresh kale juice.

Although kale is a decent source of calcium for a plant food, it doesn't contain vitamin K2 nor D3 nor fat.

Vitamin K2 is crucial for bone health, and it sounds like her diet didn't have very much.

Since she obviously stays out of the sun, she ought to have been eating food sources of vitamin D3 like cod liver oil, salmon, and sardines, but at this point she'll probably have to take massive amounts of a D supplement to get her blood levels up.

[liamona]

"Paleolithic Eating Support List"

PALEOFOOD@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG

Ray Audette (author of Neanderthin) is a member, and posts occasionally.

I love these kind of groups, because you get long threads like "desperate quest for fat" on them.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by liamona

Since she obviously stays out of the sun,

That's her problem right there!

[Andrew Gubb]

Lean, Mean and Green?Vegan Fighter Mac Danzig Packs a Punch The MMA Digest

[Andrew Gubb]

^his diet is too high in protein, but he's definitely not a stereotypical vegan.

[Bleicke]

Ape Diets--Myths, Realities, and Rationalizations - 1 of 2

Studies show:

Insect food is the predominant animal matter resource for primates. Insects are eaten by all extant apes, i.e., chimpanzees (e.g., Lawick-Goodall 1968), orang-utans (Gladikas-Brindamour1), gorillas (Fossey2), gibbons (Chivers 1972, R.L. Tilson3), and the siamang (Chivers 1972). The amount of insect matter in most primate diets is small, but may expand to more than 90% of the diet when insects are abundant and easily captured...

Preference for animal matter seems confirmed.

[danoodle]

Sorry to revive such an old thread but I read through the entire thing and thought it was quite interesting. I am currently reading the Paleo Solution and am going to try a 30 day paleo trial starting january 1. Ideally I would eventually like to get to raw paleo but we'll see how it goes.

I did a 30 day vegan trial back in January of this year and it went well I'd say. A huge huge huge improvement from the SAD. But considering I was literally eating the worst processed foods, fast food, crap that probably shouldn't be called food, any diet with more natural foods probably would have been a big improvement. I eventually transitioned into being a moegan (my term for mostly vegan) and am starting to incorporate meat again now to be ready for Paleo.

One thing that I didn't see addressed in this thread that has always concerned me is the need for vitamin B-12. From what I've read, you need vitamin B-12 to survive (albeit not a lot and problems can take many years to surface) but when on a vegan, raw, or fruit diet, how does one get vitamin B-12 in the diet without the use of supplements or fortified food? This one concept kinda busted the notion of being vegan to me because any supplement or fortified food is not "natural" or found in nature. So if the fact that you need B-12 to survive is true (is it?) and the fact that the only way to get it in nature is by eating animals (is that true too? I think it technically comes from bacteria?) then our ancestors would have had to have eaten animals even just a tiny amount, confirming that we are indeed supposed to be omnivores. If anyone can address this issue I would greatly appreciate it!