How to sleep?

[thaiduytrinh]

It is very difficult for me to sleep. Despite the fact that I sacrificed my previous days sleeping for less than 5 hours and walking like a zombie during the day, I felt can-not-sleep when it came to the night.
I can normally feel can-sleep after 3 or 4a.m. Even if I am very tired and go to bed earlier, I will eventually end up falling asleep after 3. However, it's much easier for me to sleep during day.
Any ideas how to overcome this?

Thanks a lot

[Andrew Michaels]

Originally Posted by thaiduytrinh

It is very difficult for me to sleep. Despite the fact that I sacrificed my previous days sleeping for less than 5 hours and walking like a zombie during the day, I felt can-not-sleep when it came to the night.
I can normally feel can-sleep after 3 or 4a.m. Even if I am very tired and go to bed earlier, I will eventually end up falling asleep after 3. However, it's much easier for me to sleep during day.
Any ideas how to overcome this?

Thanks a lot

Some years ago I used to have a lot of problems getting to bed at night and getting up in the morning, and, like you, I would feel like crap all day long.

My solution was pretty obvious, actually.

1. Cut out all caffeine. Coffee, soda, chocolate, etc. Severely limit anything sugary and stop eating all together after 8pm.

2. Do cardiovascular exercise at some point during the day. I run for 20-40 minutes every morning before breakfast.

3. Wind yourself down. About 11:00pm every night, I get into bed and start reading. By Midnight, I have a hard time keeping my eyes open, as I'm not allowing anything stimulating/exciting to bother me.

4. Wake up at the same time every morning. I think that this is the most important step. I set my alarm for 7:30am and get up at the time whether I'm exhausted or not. Whether I have to go to work or not.


What you'll find is that when you've done all this, you're body will tell you when it wants to go to bed. Without caffeine or sugar to artificially stimulate your body, you'll find that if you're really exhausted, you'll just start falling asleep as you read. You're problems will be gone inside 3 days.

Best of luck.

[Atom]

I have similar problems from time to time. I agree with all of Andrew's advice. I find it's especially important that I not have any caffeine after about 4 pm, or I will have problems sleeping. Do NOT watch TV in bed, that can keep you up all night (if something good is on). Reading is great for helping me get to sleep, but what you read is critical. I find that magazines, newspapers, or a good novel will not help me sleep - they will keep me up. A difficult novel (try Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy) or some non-fiction books ("dry" ones) will work much better.

[David Hausladen]

If you do all of the above and still have trouble getting to sleep when you want, then your circadian rhythm (read: body clock) has probably gotten shifted forward too far from being conducive to sleep at your desired time. In practical terms, this means you should figure out the time when you can always get to sleep (you mentioned 3am or 4am) and then adjust backward from there by an hour or a half-hour every night until you reach your desired sleep time. It will be slightly difficult to get to sleep as you're adjusting those times, but if you use Andrew's suggestions on "winding down" time, you should have no problem (personally, I only use a half-hour of "winding down" time, but do what works best for you).

Good luck, thaiduytrinh, and welcome!

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by thaiduytrinh

It is very difficult for me to sleep. Despite the fact that I sacrificed my previous days sleeping for less than 5 hours and walking like a zombie during the day, I felt can-not-sleep when it came to the night.
I can normally feel can-sleep after 3 or 4a.m. Even if I am very tired and go to bed earlier, I will eventually end up falling asleep after 3. However, it's much easier for me to sleep during day.
Any ideas how to overcome this?

Thanks a lot

Welcome Thaiduytrinh.

On days when you can sleep as long as you like during the day (perhaps on weekends), how long do you sleep?

[thaiduytrinh]

Thank you all for your replies.

Originally Posted by Scott Bird

Welcome Thaiduytrinh.

On days when you can sleep as long as you like during the day (perhaps on weekends), how long do you sleep?

I feel it much easier to sleep during day than night at the same level of tiredness. I may sleep as long as 2 hours. I often condition myself to sleep around 30mins so as not to affect my night-sleep.
I always feel very excited and energized after my day-sleep even if it is only 1-hour long even if I did get only 4 hour-night-sleep the day before (I sleep around 7-8 hours a day). I'm just walking like zombie if I can not get my day-sleep. It sound like taking drugs, right?

Originally Posted by Andrew Michaels

Some years ago I used to have a lot of problems getting to bed at night and getting up in the morning, and, like you, I would feel like crap all day long.

My solution was pretty obvious, actually.

1. Cut out all caffeine. Coffee, soda, chocolate, etc. Severely limit anything sugary and stop eating all together after 8pm.

2. Do cardiovascular exercise at some point during the day. I run for 20-40 minutes every morning before breakfast.

3. Wind yourself down. About 11:00pm every night, I get into bed and start reading. By Midnight, I have a hard time keeping my eyes open, as I'm not allowing anything stimulating/exciting to bother me.

4. Wake up at the same time every morning. I think that this is the most important step. I set my alarm for 7:30am and get up at the time whether I'm exhausted or not. Whether I have to go to work or not.


What you'll find is that when you've done all this, you're body will tell you when it wants to go to bed. Without caffeine or sugar to artificially stimulate your body, you'll find that if you're really exhausted, you'll just start falling asleep as you read. You're problems will be gone inside 3 days.

Best of luck.

I rarely drink coffee and eat those high-sugary products. I have tried the 2nd and 4rd method but it doesn't help much. I usually go to bed very soon as I mentioned previously, either closing my eyes and listening to some audio books or reading somethings.I can't concentrate on reading the 'dry' ones because I was too tired. They don't make me more sleepy. Those motivated reading make me rather excited.
What are you thinking when you are going to bed. I am often in the state of thinking 'nothing' and wait to sleep but...
By the way, is it good to avoid those sugary products in our diet? 'cause I heard some people always bring chocolates to increase their sugar level when needed.

[Ati]

Originally Posted by thaiduytrinh

.....I feel it much easier to sleep during day than night at the same level of tiredness. I may sleep as long as 2 hours. I often condition myself to sleep around 30mins so as not to affect my night-sleep.

I always feel very excited and energized after my day-sleep even if it is only 1-hour long even if I did get only 4 hour-night-sleep the day before (I sleep around 7-8 hours a day). I'm just walking like zombie if I can not get my day-sleep. It sound like taking drugs, right?
------
By the way, is it good to avoid those sugary products in our diet? 'cause I heard some people always bring chocolates to increase their sugar level when needed.

Welcome thaiduytrinh!

I agree with all the advice here....

Regarding your daytime nap "habit" , that's very interesting from the point of view of biphasic sleeping. It does seem possible, that for some of us, actually splitting sleep into two sections--a nap and a, usually longer, night time sleep period -- increases what I'd call sleep efficiency, the amount of rest/energy/etc which comes from a given total sleep per 24 hours. Maybe have a look at the threads having to do with polyphasic sleep logs (currently biphasic, but bi is poly after all ) and biphasic sleep, maybe you'd like to try something like this. Lots of good sleep links on these..

What you're saying here brings the suggestion to mind that maybe your sleep pattern tends towards the biphasic... (hey I'm not a pusher of drugs or sleep patterns, but hmm..... sounds like that a bit )

Before going to a longer daytime "nap" schedule, I also did real well with "power naps" or "cat naps", a lot of people do...

Another thing you might want to try..(not knowing your daytime scheduling needs)

As has been said, part of this seems to be circadian rhythm related. If, for a while, you set your alarm for, say 6-7-8 hours (if you decide not to go "biphasic") or 4.5 to 6 hours (if you do decide to go biphasic, your 90 minute cycles are in there then)...
....so set your wake-up alarm for a particular number of hours after your usual go to sleep time (2-3-4am from what you said). Get up then, using bright light, water, exercise, discipline.. whatever gets you moving.
After a few days (?how many depends upon the person, pick something ), back up the alarm an hour earlier and live with it...you might well find yourself getting sleepy an hour earlier.
Then keep backing up your alarm, so that your sleep time shifts earlier. Does this make sense?
-

----

Yes, I think it's good to avoid sugary stuff in your diet. Chocolate has caffeine as you most probably know. I stay away from coffee except first thing in the morning, don't have any of the other "energy" products containing caffeine and other stimulants, occasionally have some tea during the day but not much and this does not seem to bother me.

all best, keep us posted on what you find useful, we all learn from each other!

Ati

[babuji]

For anyone who has trouble sleeping, you should try a practice known as Yoga Nidra, literally meaning 'Yogic Sleep'..

This practice is usually done to help people connect to their subconcious..but I've found it useful in putting myself into a state of deep relaxation that it eventually puts me to sleep.

Basically to practice this for the purpose of sleep do the following:

1) While lying on your bed, put yourself into the savasana position
2) Take 2-3 deep breaths (don't rush them, take 5 seconds to inhale, hold your breath for 2 seconds and exhale for another 5 seconds).
3) While exhaling, feel your body weight sink into the ground. All the tension/pressure/tightness in your body just let it sink and feel it being removed from your body.
4) Now picture you entire body being lit up internally with bright lights. One by one select each body part and imagine that you are shutting off these lights in your body and putting that body part into deep relaxation.

So start with your toes, ankles, shin, knee..etc.. and work your way up to your face, chin, nose ears and finally your eyes.
5) You should now be able to visualize all those lights in your body being turned off and relaxed..
6) Lastly visualize your spirit slowly sinking into your subconscious and that will eventually put you to sleep.

I've found this to be a very useful technique. Remember to focus, while you're trying to relax each and every body part, your mind might wander, and start to think about other things. Practice this a few times and you'll get better at it.

Cheers

[kthdsn]

I read something a long time ago about circadian rhythms and resetting your body clock, sorry but I have no idea where I got it from so can't paste the source.

Apparently it is a lot easier to push it forwards than it is to pull it backwards. Pulling your body clock backwards is exactly the same as having jet lag, which could be why you feel so crap.

The advice I read suggested going to sleep a little later each day but sleeping for the usual length of time. If you usually sleep 8 hours and go to bed at 3am, try getting 8 hours from 4am, then 8 hours from 5am etc. Eventually, you will have pushed your body clock forwards right through the day to a reasonable sleeping time.

Of course this means that for a while you will be sleeping through the day which isn't practical for most people, and is the reason I didn't try it. If you are able to sleep through the day, it could be worth a try.

[thaiduytrinh]

Originally Posted by kthdsn

I read something a long time ago about circadian rhythms and resetting your body clock, sorry but I have no idea where I got it from so can't paste the source.

Apparently it is a lot easier to push it forwards than it is to pull it backwards. Pulling your body clock backwards is exactly the same as having jet lag, which could be why you feel so crap.

The advice I read suggested going to sleep a little later each day but sleeping for the usual length of time. If you usually sleep 8 hours and go to bed at 3am, try getting 8 hours from 4am, then 8 hours from 5am etc. Eventually, you will have pushed your body clock forwards right through the day to a reasonable sleeping time.

Of course this means that for a while you will be sleeping through the day which isn't practical for most people, and is the reason I didn't try it. If you are able to sleep through the day, it could be worth a try.

hmm, it seems to be quite impractical... So it takes around 21 days to be back to 12a.m

[copla]

Try putting on some music set to fade out- if you have a make google Aurora alarm clock osx, it's a great program that works as an alarm clock and as a way to fade out your music over 45 minutes to an hour. Otherwise, throw on some of your favorite relaxing music- Sigur Ros' album Takk does it for me, as doese a bunch of random songs here and there, Broken Social Scene's Anthems for a Seventeen Year Old Girl (it's a good song, honest!), Pitter Patter Goes My Heart, and End Theme all work great, as does Death Cab's Passenger Seat and I Will Follow You into The Dark. Masive Attack's also great for this. Just look at your library, find some chill music, and throw it on. It's easier to sleep when your mind is focusing on something other than all the things going through your head as you unwind from the day

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by babuji

1) While lying on your bed, put yourself into the savasana position

I usually sleep in that position - very relaxing. I had no idea it had anything to do with yoga, it's just comfortable

[Ati]

Originally Posted by kthdsn

I read something a long time ago about circadian rhythms and resetting your body clock, sorry but I have no idea where I got it from so can't paste the source.

Apparently it is a lot easier to push it forwards than it is to pull it backwards. Pulling your body clock backwards is exactly the same as having jet lag, which could be why you feel so crap.

The advice I read suggested going to sleep a little later each day but sleeping for the usual length of time. If you usually sleep 8 hours and go to bed at 3am, try getting 8 hours from 4am, then 8 hours from 5am etc. Eventually, you will have pushed your body clock forwards right through the day to a reasonable sleeping time.

Of course this means that for a while you will be sleeping through the day which isn't practical for most people, and is the reason I didn't try it. If you are able to sleep through the day, it could be worth a try.

Y'know I remember reading something along those lines, too....I hadn't remembered that earlier. Maybe if pulling the clock backwards doesn't work well with all sorts of adjunctive helps it would be worth trying, tough though to sleep through the day, hour by hour. But maybe necessary in some situations.

Originally Posted by thaiduytrinh

hmm, it seems to be quite impractical... So it takes around 21 days to be back to 12a.m

Yah!

[Phi]

Go for a nap during the day if you can't sleep at night. I'm into polyphasic sleeping with a 3 hour core at night, but I sleep far better when I do my naps during the day.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by kthdsn

I read something a long time ago about circadian rhythms and resetting your body clock, sorry but I have no idea where I got it from so can't paste the source.

Apparently it is a lot easier to push it forwards than it is to pull it backwards. Pulling your body clock backwards is exactly the same as having jet lag, which could be why you feel so crap.

The advice I read suggested going to sleep a little later each day but sleeping for the usual length of time. If you usually sleep 8 hours and go to bed at 3am, try getting 8 hours from 4am, then 8 hours from 5am etc. Eventually, you will have pushed your body clock forwards right through the day to a reasonable sleeping time.

Of course this means that for a while you will be sleeping through the day which isn't practical for most people, and is the reason I didn't try it. If you are able to sleep through the day, it could be worth a try.

I gave that method a try when I had a bunch of free days to see if it worked. I was only able to fall asleep after midnight, so to start I began going to sleep around 3 hours later every day or so. I progressed to the point where I could naturally fall asleep at 9-10pm and wake up at automatically at like 6am. It was great since I was no longer tired ...but that experience was brief since not long after came a day when I had to deviate and stay up until midnight. I made sure to still wake up at 6am but felt really groggy. That night I could no longer fall asleep at 10pm, in fact it seemed like my body clock got pushed forward just by staying up late that one night....and now I'm back to where I started and seem to only fall asleep at 2am again.

So yeah, that method did reset my bodyclock but sleeping late one night pretty much negated the effects. Not sure what went wrong there...still looking for a way to get sleepy earlier.

[MarkusL]

You have to reset your wake-sleep cycle. When you wake up during the day, dont take a nap, stay awake through out the whole day. Exercise as much as you can(running is the best way to deplete all your energy) And when the evening arrives you'll be tired and you should be able to fall asleep. Give it a shot; it worked with me. hehe

[thaiduytrinh]

Thank all you guys for your help. I finally manage to sleep around 12a.m, waking up (with the alarm clock,of course) at 5a.m and taking a 2-hour nap during the day. It's a combination of regular physical exercises, a very tight sleeping-waking schedule I've followed for the last 21 days.
One reason why it is difficult for me to sleep was not relaxing my mind. I always wonder whether I will not be able to sleep while trying to sleep. I forced to put myself in the state of thinking nothing but I can no longer remain in that state and quickly return the negative thoughts. My mind did go around that cycle until it was too tired.
Actually, even now I don't know how I can overcome it. I just feel it's natural to fall asleep at night...