Polywolyphasic

[micth]

hey guys (not sure if this should go in this forum... but it comes under sleep i guess)

i'm thinkin of tryin this polyphasic sleep thing (probably start it about a month from now)... i know that it's ridiculously hard to get past the adaption phase, but i got afew things in my favour such as:
- i live by myself in a flat = no distractions
- i drink nooo caffeine, and little alcohol
- i don't work, so i can clear my schedule for as long as i need
- i wake up every morning at 5am, and am pretty disciplined at this
- good physical shape

I was just wondering if any of you have any tips that'll help me succeed, and if any of you have attempted this, feedback would be much appreciated. Also, i was thinking of becoming a vegetarian during it, due to the 'food digests easier therefore less energy is used in digestion process' argument, or mayb it's not really worth it. I should add that i'm not really a fan of meat, and it wouldn't be missed if i switch over. Anywayz yes, if i do attempt this, i'll keep you guys posted about it, probably in a blog or somethin.

[David Hausladen]

I very nearly passed 21 days on polyphasic sleep last summer before giving it up because it was too incongruent with my family's monophasic sleep schedule. What I did that helped:

-Make a chart with checkboxes for every nap for the first 21 days (if you can make it past the first 21 days, it's a habit). Check off your naps religiously, and mark down exactly when and if you oversleep. Oversleeping is not nearly as painful to think about if you have an otherwise good record to look back on. Also, thinking only about the first 21 days and knowing exactly where you are at all times can help to keep you motivated.

-Sometimes when I went to bed in the afternoon, I would have a bunch of thoughts in the mind that would make it harder to sleep if I was feeling energetic that day, or I wouldn't feeling like napping then. I would lay down, tell myself once to "think of nothing" and clear my mind. Even though my thoughts would drift afterward, this method seemed to lower the overall stress level of my thoughts, making it much easier to sleep on those occasions so I didn't have trouble later.

-Tell as few people as possible in the first 21 days. I told no one until Day 7, and I think I should've waited longer. As soon as people hear you're going polyphasic, they'll start telling you it's bad, which is no good for your brain (on Day 7 mine was still pretty sleep-deprived, and I needed as little criticism as possible). If I was going to do it again, I'd wait until Day 21, when I've made it a complete habit, to tell others (besides, of course, the supportive and encouraging people on this forum).

I hope these suggestions help, and either way I hope your polyphasic sleep experience goes well! I've thought about going polyphasic again several times--it's just such a cool way to sleep!

[ahimel]

Micth:

Sounds like you have a lot of things going for you. I don't have any real "data" on the vegetarian thing, but I do have anecdotal evidence:

My roommate and I tried this starting back in August. My roommate's a veggie (meat makes him sick) and I'm not. I lasted 2 weeks, and my roommate's still polyphasic.

For what it's worth.

[TheMalkavian]

I managed to keep up for about 2 weeks, but i'd occasionally be forced to miss a nap and eventually started oversleeping too often.

I'd try again, but im wondering if I shouldnt try something else like biphasic - sleeping maybe 90mins in the afternoon and 3 hours in the morning. That way I'll sleep exactly when im least productive. Ive heard a lot of people have tried that. Any opinions?

[micth]

wow thanks guys, all that feedback was exactly what i was looking for.. hopefully it shall help

[The Fox]

Originally Posted by TheMalkavian

I'd try again, but im wondering if I shouldnt try something else like biphasic - sleeping maybe 90mins in the afternoon and 3 hours in the morning. That way I'll sleep exactly when im least productive. Ive heard a lot of people have tried that. Any opinions?

Malkavian - I've thought of trying "biphasic" too. I already sleep about 5-6 hrs each night, and think it could be a good approach to gain some of the productivity benefits without alienating my wife. (Plus it could be especially helpful when our baby arrives!)

I would think Steve's comments about cleaning up your diet, etc would still very much apply. I do wonder though if the 90 minutes would be effective. I think I understand your intent (i.e., not having to rewire your the way sleep cycle from 90 minutes to the ultrashort 20) but you would still only wind up with 4 cycles per day.

Perhaps this is enough, but the polyphasic structure is set up to give you many more cycles than that. Of course, for me 90 mins in the afternoon isn't attainable due to my schedule, so my view is probably biased.

I'd love to hear your results when you try it!

Best!

[yossarian]

I tried it, and on a vegan diet (my normal diet) but I never really made it over the bottleneck.

I think the longest I was able to go without oversleeping was 5 days. I kept trying for 3 weeks but every 5ish days of being perfectly on schedule I would invariably sleep through my alarm and have a 4hr nap which sort of ruins everything.

If I was going to do it again, I'd go outside more often and have more activities and food planned ahead. You get to this point where your brain like... shuts down. You just can't think of anything and you stare at the wall for long periods of time. You've gotta have all the routines ready and in place if you want to make it over that big hurdle around the 4-6 day mark. Plan activities ahead of time, write them down on a big schedule, and definitely use a system to keep track of what naps you've done. Then just follow the schedule and use multiple alarm clocks, and hope you have the self-discipline that Steve has developed. After my 3rd or 4th oversleeping screw-up I gave in and had the most delicious 14 hour sleep of my life.

Good luck! It might also help to give us a play-by-play in this thread. I'm sure some of us would be interested anyway. I may give polyphasic another go when I have a chance.

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by TheMalkavian

I'd try again, but im wondering if I shouldnt try something else like biphasic - sleeping maybe 90mins in the afternoon and 3 hours in the morning. That way I'll sleep exactly when im least productive. Ive heard a lot of people have tried that. Any opinions?

TheMalkavian, I've been biphasic for a couple of months now, and it's great. There are a number of reasons (for details see http://www.straighttothebar.com/2006...ummary.html ); not least of which is the fact that it more closely aligns with monophasic sleep patterns of those around you than polyphasic sleep does. Highly recommended.

[David Hausladen]

micth's decision to go polyphasic in the near future has gotten me thinking about it enough that I decided to give it another go, this time in a formal 30-day trial. Perhaps we should start another thread specifically for people to report their polyphasic sleep experiences day-by-day*, and then this one could be for discussing everything else polyphasic.

Just a thought. If I hear no objections or better ideas, I'll start that thread tonight and post my first day's log.

* I edited this post to link to the thread which I created for polyphasic sleep logs.

[PhoenixOwl]

I wish I could attempt polyphasic sleeping. I'm not sure of the effects it has on one's growth though, and seeing as I'm only 16, I'm not sure if I'd like to take the risk. That, and I'd have to try and nap during lunch. I don't think a highschool bench is the greatest place to take a nap. I'm definately going to have to take a stab at it once I'm in University though.

[micth]

David: Polyphasic sleep reports are a really good idea. It'll give others in the forum who are interested a bit of an insight into how it is really like to sleep like this and hopefully help them be more prepared if they're thinking of tryin it

PhoenixOwl: Yeah, good idea not to risk it still being young and stuff... plus it would be pretty tough with the rigid school schedule

[andrew]

What do you guys think about this? I don't really know much about it, but do you think it's worth all the trouble it seems like?

[David Hausladen]

PhoenixOwl: Yeah, it would be pretty hard to start polyphasic sleep during high school. The only way I can think of would be to do it temporarily during summer break, just to see what it's like. Don't know, just a thought.

andrew: It can be a lot of trouble to get started on it. I'm doing this mainly because 1) I look forward to the extra time in my day, 2) I'd like to see whether it increases my creativity (being a writer, I can use all the creativity I can get), and 3) I find it easier to experience lucid dreams during short naps (lucid dreaming is something I've been working on for quite some time, so I'm looking forward to seeing how polyphasic sleep helps me in that area).

[Minsc]

I've been trying to find a good schedule for a while(one that works with school)... I've been changing it around since school started..

-Be persistant about it...

-If you oversleep, wait until the next cycle where you feel sleepy and sleep then. (you'll probably end up skipping some cycles) Oversleeping is common so don't let it discourage you... You won't oversleep more than eight hours total in a 24 hour period so you're always better off with polyphasic in terms of time spend sleeping.

-If you aren't sleepy during a cycle, you'll oversleep sooner or later, assuming the schedule's right.

-Make your bed cold and uncomfortable(you might get used to it though).
(a cycle would be a block of time where you're supposed to be sleeping)

-You can drink some caffine... I've determined that I can drink a cup of tea for each hour after I wake up except the one right before I go to sleep. (so if I go to bed at 6AM and it's 3AM, I can drink two cups of tea; it's actually a bit more though)

-Not sitting helps. (most of the stuff I do involves the computer though so I can't really make use of this)

-You'll want something to wake you up if you dose off(I wrote some software for myself but it can fail and doesn't actually wake me up most of the time since the alarm's not loud enough).

-If you decide that you're going to sleep for just five minutes, you'll wake up two hours(more if you've just started) later wondering what happened. Although 10 minutes of rest can really help with tiredness if you aren't exhausted, just tired...

-Don't eat fatty foods before you go to sleep. They're fine more than two hours before you're about to sleep(it depends on the food though).

-Start it now unless you have a good reason not to.

-Don't listen to what everyone else thinks about it. They probably haven't done it, you're the only person who's going to be afffected by it, and you can judge for yourself wether or not it's worth it.

Also, sleeping three hours a day would double your free time if you have school.

[Zach]

It's on my list to try this out, but it would be nearly impossible to attempt at this point in my life, with a daily school schedule and all. I'd be very interested in learning about people's results with this, though.

[yagazuzy]

I would not recommend that you make any kind of drastic change to your diet at the same time or close to the time that you transition to polyphasic sleep. I have attempted to adjust to the schedule two times at this point. The second time, I switched to a raw diet because I heard that sleep requirements are reduced. I didn't realize that doing that would also send my body into a detox, which resulted in too much happening to my body all at once.

Kirk’s Blog » Too Much Too Fast

Also, just a warning that most people don't adjust the first time, but it's good that you have a lot of time without obligations. There are plenty of stupid mistakes that people have made. One thing that you will likely have to learn is how to fall asleep quickly for the naps. Many people find it hard to stop oversleeping at night, and this in turn leads to difficulty in falling asleep during the day. Napping is really an art that you will have to master before you will adjust.

Kirk’s Blog » How to Fall Asleep Immediately

~Kirk

[Pooka]

I was on polyphasic for about twenty-one days (a 'temporary during summer break' deal), and I blogged my experience. I always updated around three AM, so my entries weren't incredibly well-written, but having a task I thought of as urgent really helped get me up.

I can't really think of anything to add that others haven't said, other than 'good luck!' Hopefully, my next polyphasic attempt with be January or February's 30-day trial, school schedule willing.

[Hoshino]

this has been on my to-do list for quite a while...and i'm in the similar position as PhoenixOwl...last year of high school and tryin to be as productive as i can tho...i slack off quite a few times...like bunking 2 days of school during the week...^__^...so hoping th at polyphasic sleep helps me get my work done and make me more productive...planning to start it in abt a week or 2...
cheers

[micth]

yagazuzy: i read your website afew weeks ago, and watched that doco thing you made, really cool stuff... i liked your hose set up

It seems that when most people decide to go polyphasic, they start straight away. I though, want to be in optimal condition to have the highest chance of success. the plan is for my polyphasic sleep to start in about a month, but between now and then, I am doing a different kind of adaption period.
At the moment I am adapting to:
- becoming vegetarian
- napping in the afternoon (to practice getting to sleep quickly)
- becoming super fit (although this isn't really an adaption)

I believe all these things will give my a higher chance of success, and because I'm starting them a month before I go polyphasic I'm allowing my body to adapt to them. Rather than just jumping straight into polyphasic sleep I'm doing some careful planning, that's the kind of person I am . Oh btw... do you guys think 1 month is long enough to adapt to a vegetarian diet? I only used to eat meat around 3 times a week, so it isn't such a big change for me.

[Ati]

Originally Posted by TheMalkavian

I managed to keep up for about 2 weeks, but i'd occasionally be forced to miss a nap and eventually started oversleeping too often.

I'd try again, but im wondering if I shouldnt try something else like biphasic - sleeping maybe 90mins in the afternoon and 3 hours in the morning. That way I'll sleep exactly when im least productive. Ive heard a lot of people have tried that. Any opinions?

Originally Posted by The Fox

Malkavian - I've thought of trying "biphasic" too. I already sleep about 5-6 hrs each night, and think it could be a good approach to gain some of the productivity benefits without alienating my wife. (Plus it could be especially helpful when our baby arrives!)

I would think Steve's comments about cleaning up your diet, etc would still very much apply. I do wonder though if the 90 minutes would be effective. I think I understand your intent (i.e., not having to rewire your the way sleep cycle from 90 minutes to the ultrashort 20) but you would still only wind up with 4 cycles per day.

Perhaps this is enough, but the polyphasic structure is set up to give you many more cycles than that. Of course, for me 90 mins in the afternoon isn't attainable due to my schedule, so my view is probably biased.

I'd love to hear your results when you try it!

Best!

Originally Posted by Scott Bird

TheMalkavian, I've been biphasic for a couple of months now, and it's great. There are a number of reasons (for details see http://www.straighttothebar.com/2006...ummary.html ); not least of which is the fact that it more closely aligns with monophasic sleep patterns of those around you than polyphasic sleep does. Highly recommended.

I also think that biphasic or core sleep (if that's the right term) might work better for me and my circumstances right now (good stuff, job, family). I tried to get into strighttothebar, Scott and the URL wasn't found. Do you or does anyone know of some good methods for getting into biphasic sleep patterns?

Thanks! interesting subject here, and elsewhere on this board!

Ati

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by Ati

the URL wasn't found.

The link appears to have the ' );' stuck on the end (I fixed this shortly after I posted it, but the quote seems to have taken the original version). Just get rid of the end bit (everything after the .html). The link should be :

Straight to the Bar: Biphasic Sleep : 30 Day Summary

As for getting into it, work out your schedule in advance (try to make the times about the same every night) and just do it. It took me about a week to adapt to it, but I imagine that time varies depending on lifestyle factors such as diet and exercise.

[Ati]

Originally Posted by Scott Bird

The link appears to have the ' );' stuck on the end (I fixed this shortly after I posted it, but the quote seems to have taken the original version). Just get rid of the end bit (everything after the .html). The link should be :

Straight to the Bar: Biphasic Sleep : 30 Day Summary

As for getting into it, work out your schedule in advance (try to make the times about the same every night) and just do it. It took me about a week to adapt to it, but I imagine that time varies depending on lifestyle factors such as diet and exercise.

Nice, nice website, Scott! Would highly recommend to all interested in this topic. I booked it and will have a look at more of your references later.

Ati

[Richard_Todd]

I briefly (for 2 weeks) tried the uberman schedule at a time when I was extremely busy, and really needed a few extra hours. It wasn't much fun, and I had the typical problems I see on people's blogs, like accidently sleeping for 4 hours every now and then, etc. But, I was slogging through it. I didn't feel like my health was deteriorating or anything. Just bouts of extreme sleepiness.

Then I read this rather long article, which more or less convinced me to give up. It's a bit sarcastic at times, and I normally ignore such negativity, but I did have to admit that the article made sense to me. I also had to admit that, other than Steve's blog, I don't know of any credible blogs of people who have sustained polyphasic sleep. And, even Steve gave it up after a few months. Anyone know of some long-running, successful examples?

Because of my personality, I still get the urge to try it again, every so often. I make sure I re-read the linked article every time, to remind me of what I'm considering getting myself into.

[David Hausladen]

I'm not going to say that polyphasic sleep is a proven thing, and that we won't have living proof in five months or five years that it's harmful to the body in the long term. Polyphasic sleep is, like many of the ideas discussed on the forums here, far out of the mainstream. Supermemo's article makes some good points that polyphasic sleepers haven't really been able to answer--in part because as far as I know none of them have the scientific background to do so. Dr. Claudio Stampi (mentioned in the article) is the only person I know of who has done scientific studies of polyphasic sleep.

However, there are some problems with the article which cause me to consider it not necessarily a perfectly reliable source:

In its article on polyphasic sleep, Wikipedia states that "according to Claudio Stampi's book ("Why We Nap: Evolution, Chronobiology, and Functions of Polyphasic and Ultrashort Sleep"), in sleep deprived condition, measurements of a polyphasic sleeper's memory retention and analytical ability show increases as compared with monophasic sleep and biphasic sleep (but still a decrease of 12% as compared with entrained free running sleep)." This is a much different picture than supermemo's article paints (it does mention that free-running sleep is more effective than polyphasic sleep in terms of mental abilities, but none of the rest).

The article dismisses successful polyphasic experiments (such as Steve Pavlina's), saying of them, "I won't quote or link to these as I found them quite disingenuous, and transparently carrying a hidden agenda. These would dilute the truth and hype a potentially hazardous habits." Essentially, the author is saying, "Since I've proven scientifically above that this can't work, anyone saying that it does work is obviously lying and possibly has a hidden agenda." There are plenty of examples in the world of real-world things that cannot be explained by our current understanding of science; why is the author so insistent that successful polyphasic sleep is not one of these (especially given that science's understanding of sleep is so shallow at this point)?

The article attempts to discredit all the allegations that famous persons from the past have done any kind of polyphasic sleep. To the article's credit, I don't think all the claims regarding these people are true, and maybe not even half. But when talking about Buckminster Fuller, he completely neglects to mention the 1943 article in Time that explains Buckminster Fuller's "Dymaxion" sleep system that he claims to have followed for two years. I'm not arguing as to whether the claim of Fuller's polyphasic sleep is true; I'm asking why the author didn't even bother to mention it, much less refute it.

I'm not saying absolutely that polyphasic sleep is feasible and practical for human beings, much less that it's a "better" sleep schedule for anyone. I admit its problems, having failed to adapt to it several times, and wonder myself about the relatively uncharted waters of polyphasic sleep's long-term (i.e. past six months) effects. I'm only saying that I wouldn't take this article as a perfectly reliable source, considering its ready willingness to dismiss reasonably convincing evidence that polyphasic sleep may be feasible and practical under some circumstances and/or for some people.

[Richard_Todd]

Originally Posted by David Hausladen

The article dismisses successful polyphasic experiments (such as Steve Pavlina's), saying of them, "I won't quote or link to these as I found them quite disingenuous, and transparently carrying a hidden agenda. These would dilute the truth and hype a potentially hazardous habits."

It was written in January 2005, which predates Steve's experiment. Your statement makes me think you know of other successful polyphasic experiments. I am an accomplished web searcher, but I cannot find them. I often see a blog where someone says "I'm giving up, but this other guy I know is still at it." But, the still-at-it guy isn't logging their results on the web anywhere. I know the article has faults, but it did make me wonder where the success stories are. Usually the people that claim they were having good results quit after a couple months claiming it's incompatible with their schedule. This may be true in all cases, but I'm skeptical. Given how alluring the idea is to people like us, isn't there just one blogging person who can sustain this practice for years?

I'm not a biologist, but I can imagine the enhanced alertness and mental performance being a result of the stress of the unusual sleep patterns. The body tends to work very well under stress, because it increases your chance of surviving a dangerous or scary event. It's not built to do that for very long, though...

I don't want to come across overyly negative, and certainly don't want to sway people that want to try it. I was just surprised no one had mentioned that article yet in the discussion, and I thought it was pretty good food for thought.

[Ati]

From David's post right here: "reasonably convincing evidence that polyphasic sleep may be feasible and practical under some circumstances and/or for some people... I do think that SOME is the operative word here for most if not all of these sorts of things, especially that which is highly dependent upon unconscious or semiconscious phenomena (i.e. altering one's sleep pattern vs. altering one's exercise pattern).

Seems that this might work some (1 to 99% ) of the time for some people and the match of those two factors seems very relevant as well.

[David Hausladen]

Originally Posted by Richard_Todd

It was written in January 2005, which predates Steve's experiment. Your statement makes me think you know of other successful polyphasic experiments.

Good point. I hadn't realized that it was dated before Steve's experiment. It's true that practically all the other polyphasic experiments I've read about thus far have failed. I have seen comments on various sites where people briefly say "I did this for about six months in college and it worked great," with little or no details (sometimes substitute "one of my friends" for "I"). I'm going to take some time and try to find detailed or even semi-detailed logs of successful experiments other than Steve's; I'll post my results here. If I can't find anything, perhaps the article is right and Steve's success just means that he's a "mutant" .

I don't want to come across overyly negative, and certainly don't want to sway people that want to try it. I was just surprised no one had mentioned that article yet in the discussion, and I thought it was pretty good food for thought.

It's a good discussion starter, and I appreciate your bringing it up. I had seen the Supermemo article a few months ago, but found the same problems with it as I described above. Nonetheless, the fact that we don't have the information to answer nearly all of its concerns means that it certainly merits discussion, especially for prospective polynappers like myself.

[David Hausladen]

Ati: Yes, I would say it's almost certain that polyphasic sleep, especially with the limited knowledge we have now, is not for everyone and not for every situation. For my part, judging by the difficulty I've had adjusting even to biphasic, I'd say I've messed with my sleep schedule enough that polyphasic is not in the near future for me--maybe I'll give it another try after I've had a few months without sleepwalking .

[David Hausladen]

Originally Posted by David Hausladen

I'm going to take some time and try to find detailed or even semi-detailed logs of successful experiments other than Steve's; I'll post my results here.

Thus far I've found a couple interesting leads:

The first is *The *Transcendental *Wildcard, a blog by PureDoxyk, the self-proclaimed "polyphasic proselytiser" who posted the Everything2 article which (Supermemo says) started the current "polyphasic sleep meme." In college, she and a fellow student followed the Uberman sleep schedule (six 20-minute naps per day) for six months (she had to abandon it because of a new job). Since July 2006, she's been using what she calls the "Everyman" sleep schedule (a 3-hour core sleep plus three 20-minute naps).

The second is ubermanschedule.com :: Index, a small new discussion board for people interested in and currently on the Uberman sleep schedule. I spotted two Uberman sleepers in one of the introduction threads. I joined up and asked about experiences with the transition to Uberman sleep, but the thread derailed into mostly advice instead of first-hand accounts. In terms of the advice given, most of it was not new to me, but there were a few surprising insights (for example, one poster recommends exercise to stay awake, where I had thought that would cause problems because of the energy expenditure). On a side note, one of the people who responded said his sleep schedule was "a combination or core sleep and uberman sleep so I still sleep three house at night" (sounds like the Everyman schedule to me).

The administrator of the board mentioned in a recent post that he may "try enabling some users to have individual blogs that they can use to document their experiences." That could be helpful in my search for first-hand accounts of polyphasic sleep. Also, he mentioned "possibly some articles, links etc. also a Q&A with a Doctor friend of mine who will be able to answer questions from a purely health point of view." That last thing in particular I think would be fascinating to check out. Unfortunately, he says "nothing will happen until the New Year" so we've got a while to wait.

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by David Hausladen

Thus far I've found a couple interesting leads:

Very interesting links David. Good finds.

In terms of the advice given, most of it was not new to me, but there were a few surprising insights (for example, one poster recommends exercise to stay awake, where I had thought that would cause problems because of the energy expenditure).

Exercise - for biphasic sleep at least - increases the quality of the nap (shorter lead and inertia times, more refreshing). My guess is that it would have a similar effect on a polyphasic routine.

Better naps = easier to stay awake for longer periods.