Eating eggs

[martin]

I've been a vegan for the past 6 months or so and a (mostly) raw vegan for a good month. I feel like I need more calories and protein in my diet if I want to gain muscle mass since I've lost a substantial amount of weight since being vegan/raw. I just don't like being this skinny.

I was thinking I could by organic eggs and maybe go through 2 or 3 dozen a week. Is this unhealthy at all? Is it a good or bad idea?

Thanks.

[SmellyOrc]

Not unhealthy.

[openeyes]

For several months I ate 12-18 raw eggs per day, 3-6 in a shake at a time. Afterwards I had my blood checked and the only unusual thing was high levels of good cholesterol Cooked eggs are more allergenic, but a couple dozen per week should be fine in whatever form you prefer them. Be sure to eat the yolks, they have the most nutrition, particularly if you're eating them raw (while whites may actually be healthier cooked, but this isn't such a big deal if you balance them out with the yolk).

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by martin

I've been a vegan for the past 6 months or so and a (mostly) raw vegan for a good month. I feel like I need more calories and protein in my diet if I want to gain muscle mass since I've lost a substantial amount of weight since being vegan/raw. I just don't like being this skinny.

I was thinking I could by organic eggs and maybe go through 2 or 3 dozen a week. Is this unhealthy at all? Is it a good or bad idea?

Thanks.

Unhealthy, probably not.
Unnecessary, probably.
You can increase your calorie intake on a raw vegan diet without eggs.

[martin]

Thanks y'all.

[Jennihul]

Do you lifts weights? Work out?

You don't need animal products to gain muscle mass. But it's not going to throw itself onto your body.

Jennifer

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by openeyes

For several months I ate 12-18 raw eggs per day, 3-6 in a shake at a time. Afterwards I had my blood checked and the only unusual thing was high levels of good cholesterol Cooked eggs are more allergenic, but a couple dozen per week should be fine in whatever form you prefer them. Be sure to eat the yolks, they have the most nutrition, particularly if you're eating them raw (while whites may actually be healthier cooked, but this isn't such a big deal if you balance them out with the yolk).

I thought raw eggs contained salmonella? I've always been told raw eggs are poisonous.

[Spartan]

Ever heard of protein shakes or protein bars? These contain the best protein available. You can also get weight gaining ones containing more carbs and more calories.

[Kaspian]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I thought raw eggs contained salmonella? I've always been told raw eggs are poisonous.

No. Raw eggs are definitely not poisonous. (Some animals hunt for bird eggs as an important food source.) Eggs from a factory farm could contain salmonella, but they are more likely not to.

As a kid, we had chickens. As a treat, we would make strawberry julius with frozen strawberries we'd grown ourselves, raw milk from the neighbor's dairy, 1-3 raw eggs from our own chickens, and a bit of sugar. Oh, so tasty!

[Calculusaurus]

Eggs are awesome. Eat eggs. They're good for you. Go for free range eggs with omega 3s. Super healthy.

[robc]

one thing that makes me shake my head is when I see people cracking the eggs open and screening the egg whites into a bowl and throwing out the egg yolks because they think egg yolks are terrible for you - because of the fat & cholesterol, when I see people do this I know they are confused, the egg yolk is where all the nutrition is. Somehow people have gotten it into their brains that egg yolks are bad when in fact it is the healthiest part of the egg.

By throwing out the yolk and only eating egg whites, you're throwing out the most nutrient dense, antioxidant-rich, vitamin and mineral loaded portion of the egg. The yolks contain many B-vitamins, trace minerals, vitamin A, folate, choline, lutein, and other powerful nutrients, do some research on this on your own because I'm sure I haven't even scratched the surface of what the yolks contain.

Egg whites are almost devoid of nutrition compared to the yolk.

Truth be known, the protein in egg whites isn't as powerful without the yolks to balance out the amino acid profile and make the protein more bio-available.

Yolks contain more than 90% of the calcium, iron, phosphorus, zinc, thiamin, B6, folate, and B12, and panthothenic acid of the egg. In addition, the yolks contain all the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K in the egg, as well as all the essential fatty acids.

People think egg yolks they think high cholesterol and that their cholesterol will go up if they eat whole eggs. Which is false.

Truth be know, when you eat a food that contains a high amount of dietary cholesterol such as eggs, your body cuts it's internal production of cholesterol to balance things out. And yes your body does produce cholesterol all by itself, cholesterol isn't just something that's acquired through your diet.

If you don't eat enough cholesterol, your body will produce more since cholesterol has tons of important functions in the body.

I have even read that recent studies show that eating whole eggs actually raises your good HDL cholesterol to a higher degree than LDL cholesterol, thereby improving your overall cholesterol ratio and blood chemistry.

Plus another thing people have to learn is that high cholesterol isn't a disease, Heart disease is a disease. There are so many myths about cholesterol it's not even funny. If someone is interested I'll post that info about cholesterol - it's actually very interesting.

Eggs aren't an evil food (however don't buy those egg alternative products at the store like egg beaters or something like that, they're crap, egg whites & chemicals, not even close to being as healthy for you as a whole egg.)

Whole eggs are very much superior to egg whites.

You can even take this further by comparing mass farming produced eggs (your supermarket standard which everyone buys) to organic free range eggs from healthy chickens. Organic free range eggs are the ultimate best eggs you can buy. They contain even higher nutrition than normal eggs you purchase at the supermarket.

If you want to add weight to your body, consume protein to help you increase your lean muscle mass. You can consume more carbohydrates but take into account the primary role of carbs is to provide energy for the body, you ingest too many carbs and don't burn them all, the body will simple store them as body fat and that isn't the type of weight you want to increase. That's another thing I could spend so much time talking about, what makes you fat. Carbs make you fat, I guess if you ingested enough fat it would make you fat but more than likely if you're overweight it's because you've been consuming far too many carbs and not enough protein & healthy fats. And most important, stay away from white flour, white bread, white sugar, etc. - all pure carbs that will turn into pure body fat on you and again that isn't the type of weight you want to put on.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by robc

That's another thing I could spend so much time talking about, what makes you fat. Carbs make you fat, I guess if you ingested enough fat it would make you fat but more than likely if you're overweight it's because you've been consuming far too many carbs and not enough protein & healthy fats.

Can you back that very strong statement up with any facts? Can you show me that excess carbohydrate calories lead to more weight gain that excess fat calories or protein calories?

[escapee]

Can you back that very strong statement up with any facts? Can you show me that excess carbohydrate calories lead to more weight gain that excess fat calories or protein calories?

Landmarks in Nutrition & Health

2. Excess carbohydrate [more than 4-5 ounces] prevents the body from burning fat and increases stored body fat. Textbook of Medical Physiology, pages 871, 936; Basic Medical Biochemistry - A Clinical Approach, pages 24, 394.

5. Carbohydrates cause insulin levels to reach 10-15 times normal and stay elevated for 2-3 hours. Textbook of Medical Physiology, pg. 977.

6. Eating carbohydrate slows the metabolism; fat and protein digestion increase metabolism. Textbook of Medical Physiology, pg. 908.

7. Adipose tissue [fat] is stored only when eating carbohydrates. Basic Medical Biochemistry - A Clinical Approach, page. 510, Voet's Biochemistry, page 790 and Principles of Medical Biochemistry, page 372.

Unlike Carb, Fat makes you filled and full fast and therefore less calorie intake, whereas 28. 60%-70% of protein eaten is used to fuel the energy of digestion; only 30%-40% is left for body structure — like muscles — and system function — like enzyme production. Basic Medical Biochemistry - A Clinical Approach.

However, If you are a pro marathon runner, pro weight lifter or active person ( like those Okinawan working on the field all day ), you may need high amount of Carb ( energy ), protein and fats to fuel your activities.

[robc]

thank you Escapee for doing the leg work,
I knew all of those references you posted to be true, it would have taken me a while to compose the same list.

- people are used to consuming their existing diet of foods because that's all they know, it's a pattern that has developed since childhood and as we all know it can be difficult to change established patterns of behavior (a belief in something can be a pattern of behavior as well).

Sometimes presenting different info than what may be socially acceptable can cause people to question these statements. I know growing up what foods caused my resulting body shape, to change my physical appearance required eating differently and working out. Don't run marathons and do countless hours of aerobics if you want a more muscular & powerful physique. If you want the physique of a marathon runner, do what a marathon runner does. If you want more muscle mass & lower body fat, incorporate a diet plan that is high in protein and low-moderate in carbs & fat to prep the body for muscle growth & fat loss, and use a training program that is centered around resistance (weight) training with a minimal focus on aerobics (20-30 min max at the end of your resistance training). Doing hours of aerobics will not burn away years of accumulated body fat - it may very well improve your cardio fitness and the heart is very important but the only way to burn calories and body fat is to build up muscle which shouldn't be a secret. No diet pills and hours every day on the elliptical or stair master will do the job.

Here's something we should all be able to relate to in terms of any personal development endeavor:

How can you expect different results by doing the same thing?
If you want different results, do things differently.
If you want the same results, keep doing things the same way.

Question all that you know and make an investment in knowledge everyday.

[Joeschmoe]

What is the deal with your source? Why aren't there full articles? Who are they? What are their associations? I tried to look up their members online and the only one i can find is the Pediatric Endocrinologist. they have no nutritionists or affiliations with any respected organization that I can find. I can find no other information about the CIIMS. Impressive name, less impressive source.

I've been looking through one of the books referenced on google books and can't find what they claim to be there anywhere near the pages they say they are on. Unfortunately we are not given edition information.

One of the references seems like a joke.

20. Butter is used directly for energy. Textbook of Medical Physiology, pg. 843.

Everything is cherry picked lines that we can't even verify exist in these books, that support a high protein diet. Where is the credibility or balanced scientific perspective here?

[escapee]

I can understand your frustration of seeing the article as you are a vegan ( DIEHARD ).

You can go high protein/essential fat & low carb with vegetarian diet. A high protein/fat diet is not unique to only meat eater. Nuts, seeds , certain fruits and green vegetable can be significant part of Low Glycemic vegetarian diet Of course with such a diet you still need to ensure adequate B12, iron, copper & zinc intake ( via supplement or carefully planned diet ).

Why was there this delay in investigating the effect of nuts? Nuts were not considered the most desirable food to protect against heart diseases because they are very high in fat

Perhaps one of the most unexpected and novel findings in nutritional epidemiology in the past 5 y has been that nut consumption seems to protect against ischemic heart disease (IHD). Frequency and quantity of nut consumption have been documented to be higher in vegetarian than in nonvegetarian populations. Nuts also constitute an important part of other plant-based diets, such as Mediterranean and Asian diets. In a large, prospective epidemiologic study of Seventh-day Adventists in California, we found that frequency of nut consumption had a substantial and highly significant inverse association with risk of myocardial infarction and death from IHD. The Iowa Women's Health Study also documented an association between nut consumption and decreased risk of IHD. The protective effect of nuts on IHD has been found in men and women and in the elderly. Importantly, nuts have similar associations in both vegetarians and nonvegetarians. The protective effect of nut consumption on IHD is not offset by increased mortality from other causes. Moreover, frequency of nut consumption has been found to be inversely related to all-cause mortality in several population groups such as whites, blacks, and the elderly. Thus, nut consumption may not only offer protection against IHD, but also increase longevity.

Nut consumption, vegetarian diets, ischemic heart disease risk, and all-cause mortality: evidence from epidemiologic studies -- Sabaté 70 (3): 500S -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

[Joeschmoe]

It wasn't an article. I am fully willing to look at and consider credible evidence. But this was a series of cherry picked, unbacked statements that cannot be verified. All of them support a low carb diet, and this site has no educational or professional affiliation. This looks like fancy propaganda. I'm not a die hard vegan, but I need some verifiable, credible information for a claim as strong as Carbs make you fat.

Give me real information.

[escapee]

and this site has no educational or professional affiliation. This looks like fancy propaganda. I'm not a die hard vegan, but I need some verifiable, credible information for a claim as strong as Carbs make you fat.

C.I.I.M.S. Members

Founder & Chairman: of CIIMS

Stephen Cavallino, M.D.,
(Emergency Physician, Reggio Emilia, Italy)

Distinguished Founding Members:

Amid Habib, M.D. (Diabetic Endocrinologist - specializing in Pediatric Endocrinology, pediatric diabetes)

David Sim, M.D. (Interventional Cardiologist)

Robert Nemer, D.O. (Cosmetic Laser Physician)

Winfield Abbe, Ph. D., (Physics)

Members:

F. Hajjar, M.D. (Pediatric Cancer Specialist)

Clive Fields, M.D. (Family Practice)

David Cowan, D.D.S. (Holistic Dentistry, UK)

Robert Sklovsky Pharm, D., N.D

No cherry picked lines, There are all summary from the paragraph of medical textbook made by the pro guys. When it comes to Carb, you either burn it or wear it. It's that simple

[escapee]

Fats vs Carb on weight loss

A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet...[N Engl J Med. 2003] - PubMed Result

CONCLUSIONS: Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost.

[escapee]

Fats vs Carbs on weight loss # 2

Effects of a low-glycemic load vs low-fat diet in ...[JAMA. 2007] - PubMed Result

CONCLUSIONS: Variability in dietary weight loss trials may be partially attributable to differences in hormonal response. Reducing glycemic load may be especially important to achieve weight loss among individuals with high insulin secretion. Regardless of insulin secretion, a low-glycemic load diet has beneficial effects on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations but not on low-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration.

[Joeschmoe]

From your first one.

This finding should be interpreted with caution, given the small magnitude of overall and between-group differences in weight loss in these markedly obese subjects and the short duration of the study.

Also no information about the specifics of the diet.

From your second one

Change in body weight and body fat percentage did not differ between the diet groups overall.

And here is one of my own

RESULTS: Assuming no change from baseline for participants who discontinued the study, mean (SD) weight loss at 1 year was 2.1 (4.8) kg for Atkins (21 [53%] of 40 participants completed, P = .009), 3.2 (6.0) kg for Zone (26 [65%] of 40 completed, P = .002), 3.0 (4.9) kg for Weight Watchers (26 [65%] of 40 completed, P < .001), and 3.3 (7.3) kg for Ornish (20 [50%] of 40 completed, P = .007). Greater effects were observed in study completers

Comparison of the Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers,...[JAMA. 2005] - PubMed Result

We can throw studies back and forth at each other, but I still say that someone who make the bold claims of "Carbs make you fat" have the burden of proof. I've seen nothing definitive.

[escapee]

CONCLUSIONS: Each popular diet modestly reduced body weight and several cardiac risk factors at 1 year. Overall dietary adherence rates were low, although increased adherence was associated with greater weight loss and cardiac risk factor reductions for each diet group.

The ornish diet is probably low GI in its own way ( compared to the SAD ), combined with strict regime of exercise, it's possible to achieve weight loss greater than the Atkin diet. As i 've said earlier, when it comes to Carbs, it's either you burn it or wear it. A lean pro ornist marathon runner may eat a ton of carbs ( for energy ) without having weight problem but it may not be the case for an office warrior who remain sedentary throughout the day.


On the second one

The following still hold true

Reducing glycemic load may be especially important to achieve weight loss among individuals with high insulin secretion.

[BamBam]

yea joeschmoe definately has an agenda

As for those talking about raw eggs, I have a question.

Is it true that putting them in the microwave for ten seconds kills of the salmonilla (if there is any)? I have been thinking about getting into the raw eggs thing, becuase its quick and a great source of vital nutrients, its just the salmonilla thing.

[Joeschmoe]

An agenda? Are personal attacks necessary? My only agenda is to have an open discussion.

I see that escapee assumes that I am advocating SAD. This is not the case. In fact I haven't advocated anything. But if you ask me, refined fats, trans fats, etc are just as bad or you as refined sugar. My point was that an attack on Carbs is oversimplistic. My personal oppinion is that a diet full of whole plant foods is best and meat, while not unhealthy, is not necessary due to our ablility to control what foods are available to us. Is this "agenda" so differnt than yours? Do you advocate against whole plant foods?

Is acusing people of having agendas and dismissing their arguments and evidence have a positive effect on this conversation?

[escapee]

I didn't assume that you advocate SAD . It's known that Ornish diet ( fiber rich plant based ) is natural lower GI than the SAD diet. the Participants are often encouraged to participate in exercise regime.

Dr. Dean Ornish's Lifestyle Program Components: Exercise
Dr. Dean Ornish's Lifestyle Program Components: Exercise

My point was that an attack on Carbs is oversimplistic.

Nobody attack carbs here ( at least not me!). carbs is an important energy source. The Okinawans would not be able to work on field all day without significant carb loading. The pro lifter may lose a bunch muscle by going zero carb diet ! Use carbs to your advantage.

is not necessary due to our ablility to control what foods are available to us. Is this "agenda" so differnt than yours?

That's just oversimplistic. There are many ppl ( like myself ) encountered significant health problem going all plant based veg and had to revert back to omnivores diet. A vegan world is only a dream.


Biblical Nutrition: Articles about Biblical Nutrition and the Genesis 1:29 Diet on Chet Day's Health & Beyond

[escapee]

Feel Free to read the following and comment.

Genesis 1:29 Diet Deficiencies Injure Baby

Genesis 1:29 Diet Deficiencies and How to Overcome Them

Genesis 1:29 Diet: Deficiency Dangers on the Genesis 1:29 Diet as Found by Researchers Michael Donaldson and Greg Westbrook

After evaluating the 7-day food diaries of these Hallelujah vegetarians, Dr. Donaldson sounds an ominous note of alarm:

“Some modifications of this dietary pattern to provide vitamins B12 and D, and higher intakes of iron, selenium, zinc and protein may be necessary for successful long-term health.” [6] (emphasis added)

In stark contrast to Dr. Donaldson’s warning above, the following summary of his findings was found on Hallelujah Acres’ website:

“What this study reveals is that intakes of most vitamins and minerals are adequate while following The Hallelujah DietSM.

“Only vitamins B12 and D were extremely low. Hallelujah Acres recommends a vitamin B12 supplement and sunshine, the natural source of vitamin D, to make up for these low intakes.

Not surprisingly, Dr. Donaldson found that most of the Hallelujah vegetarians actually ate animal products during the week. A whopping 58% of the Hallelujah vegetarians (82 out of 141) ate animal products even though many of them were health ministers. While they probably felt guilt and failure over eating animal products, the lack of protein in the diet may have been a major factor in driving them to cheat.

When you remove meat from food supply, Some of the B12, iron, zinc, copper starved vegetarian would not be able to "cheat ".

[BamBam]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

An agenda? Are personal attacks necessary?

I see that escapee assumes that I am advocating SAD. This is not the case. In fact I haven't advocated anything. But if you ask me, refined fats, trans fats, etc are just as bad or you as refined sugar. My point was that an attack on Carbs is oversimplistic. My personal oppinion is that a diet full of whole plant foods is best and meat, while not unhealthy, is not necessary due to our ablility to control what foods are available to us. Is this "agenda" so differnt than yours? Do you advocate against whole plant foods?

Is acusing people of having agendas and dismissing their arguments and evidence have a positive effect on this conversation?

Wow Mr. Feelings, you are very sensitive.

A) Of course trans fats are as bad as sugar, what is that even doing in this discussion silly goose
B) No one is attacking carbs. Refined carbs suck there is no debate there. Complete carbs though, of course they are good for you.
C) You don't eat meat because we can control what we eat? So you totally disregard your body's need for a good source of protein and amino acids (meat) just because you can control it? Ok...I think I will stick with my personal well being.

And I am not accusing you of having an agenda, there is nothing to debate.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by BamBam

yea joeschmoe definately has an agenda

[Jennihul]

Uh, eggs fellas. This was about eggs.

Then again, Martin seemed to be done with us long ago.

Jennifer

[Joeschmoe]

Good point.

As I said originally Eggs aren't bad for you.