Granite Countertops in Florida

[Amadeus]

Dangers of Granite
I've posted on here quit a bit and feel it is my duty to express my dislike and fear of home owners using granite for their kitchen countertops in the Health section. I am a chef and owner of a well known restaurant here in Tampa Florida. Yes granite will stain, scratch, and cannot be repaired, but the biggest negative is that it will harbor bacteria. I worry about people putting a "sponge" in their kitchen. It is ok in the bathroom, but my god not in the kitchen where you are preparing food. Before I became educated I came an inch of my life before installing granite in my restaurant until another buddy chef of mine told me that it was against OSHA rules to have granite where food preparation is done. He said not only will granite harbor bacteria, but it is also a promoter of mold and mildew growth. Here in Florida when you think mold and mildew you think termites.
Then the 2nd thought that came to my head is "I have granite in my home kitchen that will need to get replaced". It was a brand new top that was just put in with the home I purchased. I knew my wife would kill me. I replaced it with a solid surface countertop and the funny thing is a month later my wife stopped having sinus infections and stopped coughing up a storm. Now I'm not a doctor and it may be a coincidence, but I sometimes wonder.
Before purchasing the granite top the salesman voluteered the information that granite would not harbor bacteria and it was just a myth without me even asking. However, if this were true than why aren't we allowed to put granite in our restaurants or why can't it be used inside hospital work areas (my sister is a nurse)?

[Ree]

Excellent point! We recently installed new countertops in our kitchen and our original plan was to install granite. But after doing some research, I found out about all the problems you mentioned and we decided to go with Corian. The dealer we bought our Corian countertops from didn't really want to discuss the problems associated with granite with me. They make a lot more money on the granite I guess. But I believe that Corian is better all around.

[Developer7]

I don't know if I would have tore the Granite out as its very expensive but since you are a chef you must take your Kitchen seriously.

Recently one of the major hotel chains "Hxxxxx" just settled a major lawsuit because someone had a lung condition and their claim is that the mold and mildew under the top caused it. I doubt it did but the hotel chain has since forbidden any Granite from going into new developments. They are trying to keep it quiet because it would be impossible to replace every top in their hotel chain that happens to be granite.

It is true that Granite is not NFS certified and cannot be used in food prep areas on restaurants or public places. It makes you wonder that if its not safe enough for a restaurant is it something you'd want in your home? Granite companies chuckle at this but I have ripped out old granite tops that were never resealed and when we broke it apart it smelled like rotten meat.

If you take care of your granite countertops, keep then clean and seal them every year or two you should have no problems though (who really does it?) But if you have elderly or anyone with a weak immune system in your house I would definitely stay clear of granite and go towards solid surface like Corian, Meganite or another nonporous surface.

[Jennihul]

It's also radioactive...

Jennifer

[Amandaaa]

really?

I had no idea that granite harbored bacteria anymore than any other type of countertop.

I better tell my parents... they were just getting ready to replace their kitchen countertops with granite!
(Do you know of any granite substitutes? I can't find anything that looks as pretty....)

[Jennihul]

I love my Corian. Not sure how porous it is but I am in love with diluted bleach as a counter cleaner. Not the greenest solution but it's effective. All my grandparents used it and never saw a doctor and all lived into their late 80's and 90's.

Jennifer

[Ree]

I love my Corian too! It doesn't stain easily whereas granite does because it is so porous.

[Keith]

I Googled on this topic and the first few hits were sites dismissing this issue as a myth:
* Granite Counter Tops: StoneInfo.Com, information Center on stone suppliers and stone products from around the world
* bacteria in granite

Personally I think we're all more paranoid about bacteria than is healthy anyway. How do you expect us to have strong immune systems if you never give them a workout?

[Amadeus]

Of course granite guys will tell you it is a myth. But if it is a myth then how come the government won't allow you to use granite in food preparation areas? It's a rock, of course it is porous. I've seen some really nice looking Corian and other solid surface tops. It will last the life of the home and I've heard that it can be renewed by sanding it every 10 years or so. It is also nonporous. My wife and I had a solid surface product called Meganite installed in our kitchen. We used a color called Southbeach Boulder. Frankly it looks a lot like granite. I still have granite in my bathroom. It does look beautiful.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by Keith

Personally I think we're all more paranoid about bacteria than is healthy anyway. How do you expect us to have strong immune systems if you never give them a workout?

Not sure I agree with you. There are strains of bacteria that are more resistant to drugs and I don't think I want to take a chance that can be easily avoided. I also threw away my old wooden cutting board. Call me paranoid, but better safe than sorry

[buckjoseph]

I don't know much about granite, except that it's a very intricate rock, and I'm not taking either side on whether or not it's a myth or fact, but I know for certain that even professionals and governmental officials believe myths to be true, as you can see on Myth Busters on the Discover Channel, so try harder in your research if you want to get to the truth.

But as for granite, I handled it as a good luck charm for a very long time at one point, but I never ever became uncomfortable or sick, so it makes you wonder...

[Developer7]

Originally Posted by buckjoseph

I don't know much about granite, except that it's a very intricate rock, and I'm not taking either side on whether or not it's a myth or fact, but I know for certain that even professionals and governmental officials believe myths to be true, as you can see on Myth Busters on the Discover Channel, so try harder in your research if you want to get to the truth.

But as for granite, I handled it as a good luck charm for a very long time at one point, but I never ever became uncomfortable or sick, so it makes you wonder...

You must watch Myth Busters? I like that show too...
I attended a National Kitchen & Bath tradeshow a few years back and they took a lemon and put it onto Granite and then one on to various nonporous surfaces like Stainless Steel and Solid Surface. After a few weeks bacterial spores grew on the bottom side of the sealed granite and the others didn't. This means that the juice went through the stone and caused bacteria to harbor on the bottom side. Its possible that the acid based lemon damaged the granite's seal though.

As for handling your good luck charm which is granite did you ever touch it after handling raw chicken? Remember we're talking about a food prep area...

[Developer7]

Originally Posted by Keith

I Googled on this topic and the first few hits were sites dismissing this issue as a myth:
* Granite Counter Tops: StoneInfo.Com, information Center on stone suppliers and stone products from around the world
* bacteria in granite

Personally I think we're all more paranoid about bacteria than is healthy anyway. How do you expect us to have strong immune systems if you never give them a workout?

In our daily lives we don't need to keep everything sanitary and wipe down door handles and go crazy. However there are two places in the house you should care about when it comes to sanitation. The bathroom and the kitchen.

I viewed your link on stoneinfo.com. I noticed that it was registered by a company who profits from stone. Too bad the NSF which governs this doesn't see it his way. Say what you will but if he opened a restaurant and used granite on the food prep areas they could shut down his restaurant immediately on the spot even when a house packed full of hungry patrons.

I've been in the Kitchen business for years and I don't listen to anyone who is trying to sell me something. Here's my take:

BACTERIA: On the stoneinfo site it said that stone simply cannot harbor bacteria. This is laughable. Any surface can harbor bacteria including solid surface or stainless steel. Its just with the nonpourous surface you can wipe it off and clean it whereas with a pourous surface its harder to clean in the pours. C'mon this is just common sense.

RADON GASES: Of course granite doesn't have harmful gases. This is rediculous too.

SOLID SURFACE IS NO BETTER THAN GRANITE FOR STAINING?: Now I know this site is made by a granite company. I've been in thousands of homes remodeling and have never seen a stained solid surface top but have seen hundreds of stained granite tops. Can solid surface be stained? Yes but its harder to do. Can granite be stained? Yes and it happens frequently.

Even today I sell granite. If someone asks me my opinion I will tell them. Granite is beautiful and as long as you seal it once a year or so and take care of it then you should have no problems. Keep mustard, wine and other common items off the tops and or if you do get mustard or wine on them then wipe it up immediately. Don't let it set overnight! If the tops break or stain then its natural and there is no warranty. I've had one of my granite top suppliers tell me "Its made by God take your warrany up with him." We're friends and we talk openly like this so I wasn't offended. He was right too anyway.

Its like this... If you would like to have a suede jacket and you like how it looks and feels then buy the suede jacket. Yes it it may stain easier, yes it has its unique care properties and so if you want the look then you must live with the ups and the downs.

If you don't like the idea of sealing your tops every year or two, or if you don't want to wipe the wine or mustard stain up after the party then just don't get granite and get something easier to take care of like Solid Surface. The brands Corian and Meganite Solid Surface were mentioned on here. I've sold both and I have no doubt that if there is a crack, defect or even if my countertop supplier installed the job improperly I have no doubt that the large Corian or Meganite factory would back it up. Its written right there in their 10 Year warranty to me. If my Granite supplier "Billy Bob" goes out of business there is no large factory to back up the workmanship. There is a huge difference in the types of companies involved.

You are not going to die if you buy a granite top and probably nobody will get sick. "IF" you keep them clean and properly maintain the tops.

That is why NSF won't allow granite to be used in restaurants because they are busy Kitchens. They don't have time to wipe down the tops constantly throughout their shifts and for the protection of the people they require a nonporous surface to be used in food prep areas. Not a surface that can be made non pourous by a seal that needs to be periodically reapplied.

I don't need to visit a website that sell stone to get my information, just comon sense and experience will do.

[Jennihul]

Originally Posted by Developer7

RADON GASES: Of course granite doesn't have harmful gases. This is rediculous too.

Radioactive. Not radon gas. But so are bananas. And cigarettes and smoke detectors.


Jennifer

[Al Gerhart]

Great discussion on granite countertop health risks.

Several points...

According to the researchers, it is looking like around 5% of granite countertop material types will have a radon problem in small, energy efficient homes. The problem is that a stone will be tested a dozen times and come up clean, then one is found that has elevated levels. Too much variety in the mineralization to predict. We have a radon room set up with 36 square feet of granite that is pumping out record levels of radon, see our forum for the details, look in the countertop material study section.

Bananas and smoke detectors having serious radiation are two common myths. One guy did manage to get a reading from bananas, he burned 100 pounds to ash, then measured the ash. I know that even a very sensitive meter will not detect any radiation other than background radiation if you stick in in a pile of bananas at Wal Mart. (Almost got thrown out doing that). Smoke detectors, a few of the guys on one of the radiation forums smashed up some smoke detectors, but the radiation will register only if the meter is a few millimeters away from the souce. At a few inches distance, you can't detect anything.

Cigarettes do have some radionuclides in them, but again it is tiny amounts close to what soil based radon would give you. The EPA says living with 4 pCi/L of radon in your home is like smoking a half pack of cigarettes per day.

On the bacteria aspect of granite, NASA has a cool study online, that found 100,000 bacteria per gram of stone. They proved that the bacteria were living and breeding inside the stone, using DNA testing of individual bacteria.


One thing that is just now coming out is the heavy metal aspects of granite. One researcher in California just found a countertop that had 10,260 ppm of Thallium present in one spot. To give you an idea of just how toxic Thallium is, if you had the weight of a postage stamps worth of Thallium, there would be enough to contaminate 570 workers to their maximum allowed exposure for an eight hour day. Here is a link to more info on that find

forum.solidsurfacealliance.org • View topic - Heavy Metal Data From a Granite Countertop

Lots of info on radon and radioactivity in granite on that site as well.

Anyway, great site, great discussion on the facts on these issues. Nice to see a civil discussion taking place on the issues.

Al

[funchy]

Does properly finished and sealed granite really present such a big threat? Can you cite some studies?

I understand if someone had unfinished (porous) granite, it would be very hard to disinfect. But new, professionally installed granite countertops (at least those I've seen) are polished and sealed to a mirror shine.

What should people get instead of granite? I have Formica and with wear it's getting rough areas which naturally trap germs. Tile usually has grout seams, and open grout is extremely porous (think mildew in shower tile). Butcher block or any other wood is out because it definitely is hard to totally sanitize, and the more you use it, the more little scratches appear to trap germs. Corian is softer than granite, so over time it too can be scratched. Any of these will be safer with proper care, regular cleaning, and maintenance.

A professional kitchen usually has nothing but pro-quality stainless steel counters, but not many people want their own kitchen covered in stainless. So what is left to use?

[Al Gerhart]

No real science has been done on this topic except for one Brazilian study that found granite did worse than some plastics (but better than one, polyproplene if I recall correctly) in bacterial adhesion. I have the study posted if you would like a link to it.

Here is a link to the NASA study, not specificaly about countertops but granite in general.

Bacillus Endospores Isolated from Granite: Close Molecular Relationships to Globally Distributed Bacillus spp. from Endolithic and Extreme Environments

A guy named Snyder did some testing, but both cases were funded by either the stainless steel industry or the granite industry, and both studies were deeply flawed as well as being unpublished in a scientific journal. Without peer review, these "product defense industry" studies are nearly worthless. We were approached by the guy, offered our own "study" for the paltry sum of $1,500.00 but felt the guy had little crediblility. A good example was how he expressed his findings in the two studies, rather than show how many bacteria were able to colonize a countertop surface, he simply counted the number of bacteria killed during the test. Think about that, wouldn't the samples with the most bacteria also have a higher number of bacteria to be killed?

As to porosity, almost all granite including polished granite is porous. When we work granite, it gets soaked with the water from the saws and grinders, turns darker, and when you need to glue a steel rod, edge lamination or seam, you have to dry the stone with a torch. Polished granite still has pores, pits, and microscopic crevices. Think about it for a bit, if it wasn't porous, it couldn't be sealed. One thing we found out during our own bacterial research on countertops (including solid surface samples) was that the labs that were expert in testing granite warned us that the porosity was so great that during the rinse procedure, most of the bacteria would be sucked into the pores of the stone instead of being flushed off the surface where they could be counted. We were warned to coat the edges and back to limit false results.

Here is my take on this bacteria issue, a homeowner needs a countertop that can be sanitized without damaging the countertop. Having a non porous surface is secondary, but important.

Quartz countertops, which I fabricate and sell, have warnings in their care and cleaning instructions and warranties that warn not to use bleach containing products (one or two will allow limited contact). The quartz companies own literature warns to use a pH balanced cleaner, so both bleach and vinegar are out. Quartz does have a non porous surface though and most carry a NSF 51 rating.

Granite may damage with bleach or vinegar (Snyder used vinegar, but the stone industry warned that vinegar can damage some stones). Plus the porosity means that unless you really soaked your granite, there will be bacteria that will escape disinfection and repopulate the countertop if food and moisture are present (plenty of both, granite never dries out completely in a home). Granite also has to be cleaned with a pH balanced cleaning solution to prevent damage. Alkaline or acidic products will damage the stone in most cases.

Solid surface is the only product that will take the bleach, vinegar, or other product necessary to do a complete sanitizing job. It will have microscopic scratches, but as the same material is used in dental work, the scratches won't protect bacteria from the cleaning agents. Like Quartz, solid surface carries a NSF 51 rating, suitable for food splash zones (where the food will be scraped up and reused or repackaged. All that means is that the product is capable of being completely sanitized (although 100% is never quite possible with any sterilizing procedure short of steam autoclave). It is non porous, 100%, so the bacteria will have no place to hide.

I'm biased on this subject. I firmly believe that solid surface makes the best possible countertop, with the health aspects being one of the mahor points. Still with exeperience and education, one will become biased toward the good and set against the bad.

Strangely enough, wood has gotten some good reviews in a study or two. Some wood types are naturaly antibiotic believe it or not. It would make for a rustic top though.

Hope this helps.

AL

[Al Gerhart]

We sell everything, we have to these days, but give me ten minutes with a customer and I can guarantee they will not buy granite unless they have only one criteria, looks. That is the one thing that no other material can compete with, granite is absolutely beautiful.

But granite is so diverse that finding a color that holds up well, has no radon or radiation, doesn't easily etch, is reasonably priced, and holds up to staining is quite difficult. Black granites for instance are quite good at bacterial resistance, very low radiation and radon emissions, don't usually need sealing. But it etches and UV fades easily.

I started looking into granite's problems to protect my business, I had to sell it to compete, but there were all these stories out there. It turned out that there were facts behind the stories but the science hadn't been done. That changed last year. Now even the granite industry is starting to test stone for radiation.

But I'll tell you, the toxic heavy metal issue is going to dwarf everything that has ever been said about granite. Our first XRF scan found huge quanities of Thallium and we spent the last year finding out how much of the radioactive elements are present in granites. Most of the radionucliedes are also heavy metals, far more poisionous than they are radioactive dangers. Some thought has been given to trying to leach out the surface elements, and it might be possible but it won't be done until consumers force the stone industry into doing it. It wasn't that long ago that most granites weren't resined, granite had pitts and you had best get used to it. But the solid surface industry, the laminate industry, and the quartz industry used the pitting of granite in their marketing so the stone industry had to do something.

Like it or not, this is how a free market works. It isn't fair or pretty, but it works best for consumers.

[TandGC]

We're building a new, green, home. Of course the counter top issue was a big one. Since we'd already had this particular surface before and love it, we went with a copper counter. Everyone who sees it is overwhelmed with how beautiful it is. We love the patina, so we're not the kind to freak out every time there is a spill, stain, etc. It is hardy, sturdy, beautiful, but best of all is the inherent property that copper has of naturally killing bacteria. Bacteria can live up to 30 days on even stainless steel, but will die on copper in FOUR HOURS! We keep it nice looking - that warm aged copper glow - by cleaning it periodically with lemon juice and salt, or with ketchup.

Pretty sweet! But, if you're one of those folks who has to have everything perfect and will wipe and polish yourself into an early grave keeping the copper all pretty, shiny, and brightly polished... find something else.

[stanmrak]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

All my grandparents used it and never saw a doctor and all lived into their late 80's and 90's.

Jennifer

I'm not questioning the benefits of chlorine, but this cause/effect logic? Bacteria-free kitchens lead to longer and healthier lifespan? You don't work for Clorox, do you? Just kidding.... i hope.

[moonrambler]

Can I just mention that nearly half the posts in this thread have been deleted as spam, making this the most spam-attracting thread on the board!

[Kurtzilla]

Granite on an average has a compressive strenght of 18000 psi. Making it a very dense stone with very little absorbtion. When granite is sealed, like it is in most kitchens, there is very little concern for bacteria / mold issues.

[crates]

Sorry but I'm not buying it. Granite is inorganic and therefore doesn't have the same level of bacteria as say wood. I think plastic is the worst of the worst, especially considering how many harmful effects there are with all other petroleum-based products. I'm not saying granite is perfect but I'd be willing to bet that by comparison, it's a good choice for a cutting surface.

It's just my two cents.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by crates

Sorry but I'm not buying it. Granite is inorganic and therefore doesn't have the same level of bacteria as say wood. I think plastic is the worst of the worst, especially considering how many harmful effects there are with all other petroleum-based products. I'm not saying granite is perfect but I'd be willing to bet that by comparison, it's a good choice for a cutting surface.

It's just my two cents.

Studies have shown that wooden chopping boards actually tend not to harbor bacteria as something in the wood kills them. They did some tests to show that wood is actually more hygeinic than plastic (of course plastic boards I just toss in the dishwasher and I'm sure there aren't too many bacteria that would survive that).

That being said... I don't prepare food on my countertops. I mean... it's always on a chopping board or a plate or something. How many people actually prepare food directly on their countertop at home? I don't know...but I know it's definitely easier to clean something I can pick up and put in my sink.

[ChrisGinsburg]

People get wayyy to freaked out about bacteria. The lengths that people go to to eliminate bacteria usually ends up causing their immune systems to weaken significantly when they are finally exposed. You can add it to the 10,000 page list of modern day OCD about food.

Bacteria is everywhere. Just make sure you're not preparing your nights dinner on a counter top that had raw meat on it from the last night without being washed and your fine.

I've been able to eat raw eggs and very rare meat for years without ever getting sick.

[emeadow]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

People get wayyy to freaked out about bacteria. The lengths that people go to to eliminate bacteria usually ends up causing their immune systems to weaken significantly when they are finally exposed. You can add it to the 10,000 page list of modern day OCD about food.

Bacteria is everywhere. Just make sure you're not preparing your nights dinner on a counter top that had raw meat on it from the last night without being washed and your fine.

Totally agree, everyone is a bit overboard on 'buggies' anymore. I do believe there are some super bugs out there likely created from all our germaphobia in the first place, but at some point you have to just live and move forward rather then worry about it constantly. I think the best defense to the super bugs is actually building up your immune system through regular exposure. Use common sense, less chemicals, and move on.

Mold and mildew are a bit different, and I could see FL being a prime environment, but I would have to agree with other commenters, if properly sealed the chances of something growing in it should be rare.

Others noted cutting on the granite surface, which might be fine, if you could care less about your knives. Nothing dulls a knife faster then cutting on something like a glass or stone cutting board.

I had heard somewhere once that most bacteria from meat cannot survive unless in a moist environment, so if something were to say dry on the counter, most of the bacteria would die just due to lack of moisture. I cannot find reference for this at the moment, curious how much credibility that has.

[Just Passing Through]

Delving into the subject of natural hygiene it is often said that there is no scientific proof that microorganisms cause disease of any sort. That a certain bacteria in greater concentrations is correlated with a certain disease instead indicates that a certain type of substance was in the body in excess which this bacteria consumes, in effect helping not hurting, by keeping this substance in check. I am kind of leaning toward agreement on that because since living more by natural hygiene ways I don't catch anything from anyone and the only time I experience any sort of symptoms is when I indulge in massive amounts of junk food and little sleep. This has been so for several years now. It's been over a decade since taking any sort of medication and that includes "natural remedies" too, none of that either.

Now it is also said that sometimes there are cleansing symptoms which occur when conditions are good enough for the body to finally get some real healing done from massive past abuses. For instance getting really sick out of no where after reaching new peaks of healthful living habits, and after the sickness passes feeling better than ever before. Since I haven't really improved my habits much, I am not really moving in that direction, so it would not be surprising I neither experience the symptoms of constantly degraded health, nor the symptoms of progressive healing. I made some progress and now I'm at a sort of comfortable standstill. Just thought I'd throw that in there since according to natural hygiene symptoms of disease are symptoms of the body healing from some offense to its functional integrity.

As for mold, granted I'm not the biggest fan of mold but if my blackberries have a tiny bit on them I don't mind. Actually I've found the tiny bits of fuzzy white mold that grow on berries has little if any taste or smell, but the molds growing on cooked foods are highly offensive, such as on bread. Basically with mold if I am not seeing it, smelling it or tasting it, I really could care less.

I do all sorts of things with my eating that would horrify people who are germaphobes

Ain't dead or sick yet buddy!