low protein bodybuilders

[scottopoly]

Can anyone point me to websites out there that feature bodybuilders or fitness advocates who eat a low-protein diet (whether it be raw, vegan, or what have you)?

If I could see some communities developed around such a thing that would be very interesting.

[Wildside]

Low protein and bodybuiding don't go together to well...check out Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness it might have something your interested in, also

RawVegan Body Building Muscle Mass

There are others...just google.

[scottopoly]

so substatial amounts of protein are needed to build muscle mass..

i was asking because i noticed Steve was getting super low amounts of protein (6%) during his recent raw foods trial. He said he wanted to maintain 25g a day. I assume this is healthy for daily living, but to build (or maintain?) muscle mass we must eat 150g-200g or more per day of protein. (I've read numbers around 1g protein per pound bodyweight).

Might this be a hint that such low amounts of protein aren't optimally healthy?

[Iamsuperman]

Originally Posted by scottopoly

Might this be a hint that such low amounts of protein aren't optimally healthy?

I would think that 6% sounds unhealthy. If the muscle aren't getting enough protein to keep their size, then wouldn't the other organs be in a protein shortage?

[A2K89]

I don't understand Vegans...

I can appreciate the philosophy that Vegans have, but what difference does it make if you drink a whey protein shake every once in a while. An absolutely strict diet just doesn't seem necessary to me.

You can still have a vegan diet, with the exception of a protein shake after your work outs. Working out two or three times a week....

Trust me the cows and chickens are already happy enough that you no longer eat meat and dairy products.

[Wildside]

I'm sure there are people a lot more knowledgeable than me on this subject...but I know you don't need 1g protein per pound of body weight to build impressive muscles...I probably get at most half of that and I am pretty impressive .

But hardcore bodybuilding is an entirely different thing than trying to eat the healthiest diet you can. Which, in my opinion, is a raw food diet. I’m sure most natural bodybuilders would disagree with me but that is the way I feel at this time.

There are no raw foodists that look remotely like hardcore bodybuilders...there are many that look really good and ripped but they are all much smaller than someone who is following an optimum bodybuilding diet and working out like a madman.

I am torn between eating raw and wanting the bodybuilding physique...so I eat about probably 60-70% raw and the rest is high quality proteins/carbs and fats...It is one of my goals to find the perfect blend between raw and healthy whole foods that give the best results while weight training.

I much prefer the physiques of many "Natural" (see no drugs) bodybuilders to any of the raw food bodybuilders I have seen. But at the same time I like the way the raw food makes me feel as opposed to the way the more dense diet of most bodybuilders makes me feel. I find a hybrid of the two to be quite satisfying...I just need to perfect it.

Good discussion.

[scottopoly]

Originally Posted by Wildside

But hardcore bodybuilding is an entirely different thing than trying to eat the healthiest diet you can.

You're right, in that bodybuilding, as a goal in and of itself, is not necessarily even healthy. But the ability of certain diets to grow or maintain your muscle could be a good indication of how healthy that diet is for you, if we assume that growing muscles is a natural process that your body should be able to do.

Maybe what we really should be look at is strength response to weight training, as a better indicator of what foods are best for us, since bulking muscles is a more aesthetic thing.

But I do think the 25g/day protein goal that Steve had would be a bit low. In his post-mortem for the raw foods diet, he said he was able to have more endurance during strength training, but the weights were still as heavy. I've read of people losing lots of muscle mass after going raw.

As far as me? I wouldn't mind bulking up a little bit, since I'm skinny and just started Welcome to CrossFit: Forging Elite Fitness, but I'm really just now considering what a healthy diet might be since I never really looked into it before. The people at crossfit are almost religous over the zone diet, which is 30% protein, 40% carbs, 30% fat, with maybe extra fat added in later. They set protein to 0.7-1.0g/lb bodyweight. They claim this diet gives the best performance for any of their athletes.

[Joeschmoe]

There is a great t-shirt i saw. It has a Gorilla on it and it says "I get my protein from fruit." The largest most muscular animals on earth only get plant protein in percentages under 10% and they don't seem to have any problem maintaining it. There is a great site from a 100% low fat raw vegan body builder. He never gets over 10% calories form protien. There are others too.

[escapee]

There is a great t-shirt i saw. It has a Gorilla on it and it says "I get my protein from fruit.

I would love to see the proof of such statement .

What Can the Diet of Gorillas Tell Us About a Healthy Diet for Humans?

One misconception about the gorilla diet is that it contains no animal products. On the contrary, all of the great ape groups take in some animal protein, whether overtly or inadvertently, by consuming insects, insect eggs and the larvae that nest on the plants and fruits they eat. In her pioneering work on chimpanzees, Jane Goodall discovered to her amazement, and to the amazement of the rest of the world, that chimpanzees kill and eat monkeys and make a tool to extract termites from their hills (homes), and that they went to considerable effort to obtain these foods. It is also significant that meat is the only food they share with other chimpanzees.

[Joeschmoe]

It's a joke!

A joke doesn't need proof.

There is some variability in the number, and I am getting really tired of having to dig up evidence every time i say anything. But the amount of animal protein in their diet is next to negligible. Something around 1% of calories. So most of their protein must be coming form somewhere else, fruits and vegetables which, if you look them up have from 5% or more of their calories from protein.

I don't give much weight to your source btw. It doesn't site sources and it makes sweeping general claims about humans needing animal products and that humans are omnivores. Well, this is not 100% true as anyone know there are people who live as Vegans their entire life. Yes they may get incidental animal protein, but it doesn't mean they NEED it.

[escapee]

But the amount of animal protein in their diet is next to negligible. Something around 1% of calories. So most of their protein must be coming form somewhere else, fruits and vegetables which, if you look them up have from 5% or more of their calories from protein.

I would appreciate that you find evidence to substantiate your claim. Otherwise it's just a personal opinion.

BTW, The digestive tract of Gorilla is equipped to manufacture some amino acids and vital nutrients . Human is not so well equipped.

Human is not Gorilla, Gorilla is not human .

How long have you been in Raw food Vegan ?

[Joeschmoe]

Nutrient Requirements of Nonhuman Primates: Second Revised Edition

Notice that for most of them (including Humans) the protein requirement is under 10% ME

So the adult Human man needs 5.8% daily energy needs from protein.

If you take 5.8 of 2000k you get 116 calories from protein. At 9 calories per gram that's only 12.8 grams of protein needed for an average adult human man.

So if you figure that a banana has 1.3 grams of protein per 100 calories. If you got 2k calories form bananas you would get 26 grams of protein. That is double what is needed.

So what is the next objection?

[SmellyOrc]

First off, one gram of protein has ~ 4 calories, not 9
Second, there is no clear research on the amount of protein one needs.

Dietary protein requirements and body protein metabolism in endurance-trained men -- Meredith et al. 66 (6): 2850 -- Journal of Applied Physiology
This research suggests you need ~0.94g/kg of bodyweight of protein a day. Sure, that is for endurance-trained athletes, but I bet it won't differ much from the amount of protein sedentary people need.

There's also data that suggest you need more, and data that suggest you need less. If you want to be sure, just have a test done. There is no other definitive way to get to know the amount of protein you need.

[escapee]

My next objection is

You're assuming 100% absorption and utilization of amino acids for body structure

Landmarks in Nutrition & Health

28. 60%-70% of protein eaten is used to fuel the energy of digestion; only 30%-40% is left for body structure — like muscles — and system function — like enzyme production. Basic Medical Biochemistry - A Clinical Approach.

In addition, Gorilla is not human, they can synthesize some of the Amino acids and certain nutrients in their digestive tract where as human cannot . So the total amount of amino acids ( diet + own ) required by the gorilla may not be known. Did i also mention that the chimps love to eat monkeys and kill bunch of ants ?

SmellyOrc, thanks for the link.

Female led infanticide among Sonso Chimpanzees « Primatology.net

[scottopoly]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

...Gorilla... "I get my protein from fruit."

That's nice, gorilla, but I am human. Ha, no but seriously, gorillas and humans diverged millions of years ago evolutionarily. Every single difference between me and a gorilla happened in that time. The logic in these statements are the same: Gorillas have no language capacity therefore humans don't either. Gorillas naturally walk on all fours therefore so should humans. Gorillas don't need much animal protein therefore neither do humans. So I don't care about what gorillas eat.

What about evolutionary arguments? Well, I avoid this since any argument here can be debated. Taubes explains it well here, though he's just talking about fats:

The fat content of the diets to which we presumably evolved, however, will always remain questionable. If nothing else, whatever constituted the typical Paleolithic hunter-gatherer diet, the type and quantity of fat consumed assuredly changed with season, latitude, and the coming and going of ice ages. This is the problem with recommending that we consume oils in any quantity. Did we evolve to eat olive oil, for example, or linseed oil? And maybe a few thousand years is sufficient time to adapt to a new food but a few hundred is not. If so, then olive oil could conceivably be harmless or even beneficial when consumed in comparatively large quantities by the descendants of Mediterranean populations, who have been consuming it for millennia, but not to Scandinavians or Asians, for whom such an oil is new to the diet. This makes the science even more complicated than it already is, but these are serious considerations that should be taken into account when discussing a healthy diet.

Nutritional science? It has the same problem as evolutionary arguments. There are too many viewpoints. You could support almost any argument with one study. With diets, there is no equivalent of double-blind placebo controlled studies out there. There are too many factors to consider. And we aren't going to put in the time (months) to sort through it all.

Here is what I know:
- the people at crossfit are passionate about the zone (30% protein, 40% low glycemic load carms, 30% fat, 0.7-1.0g protein / lb bodyweight). a lot of people say they feel the best ever since going on the zone. and the coaches claim it's gives the best performance of any of their athletes. Their emphasis is on performance in diverse functional movements and endurances.
- "Everyone" says you need protein to build muscles. Even vegan bodybuilders say this.
- when first going on a low protein (usually raw) diet, you lose tons of weight and muscle.
- the only low protein bodybuilding/fitness advocates out there are wackos. No, I mean this endearingly, but they are crazy.

crazy low-protein guys:
- Raw power dude. Read the first comment about his book. Read his interview.
- Fruititarian dude. Read his detox article. Most the before/after photos on his site are of people losing weight only.

I don't doubt it's possible to gain some muscle on a very low protein diet. These crazy low protein fitness guys are an example. It's possible to do anything. Bottom line is it seems like the diet is working against your body's effort to make muscle, not with it. This does not sound like optimal health.

[Wildside]

Originally Posted by scottopoly

That's nice, gorilla, but I am human. Ha, no but seriously, gorillas and humans diverged millions of years ago evolutionarily. Every single difference between me and a gorilla happened in that time. The logic in these statements are the same: Gorillas have no language capacity therefore humans don't either. Gorillas naturally walk on all fours therefore so should humans. Gorillas don't need much animal protein therefore neither do humans. So I don't care about what gorillas eat.

What about evolutionary arguments? Well, I avoid this since any argument here can be debated. Taubes explains it well here, though he's just talking about fats:

Nutritional science? It has the same problem as evolutionary arguments. There are too many viewpoints. You could support almost any argument with one study. With diets, there is no equivalent of double-blind placebo controlled studies out there. There are too many factors to consider. And we aren't going to put in the time (months) to sort through it all.

Here is what I know:
- the people at crossfit are passionate about the zone (30% protein, 40% low glycemic load carms, 30% fat, 0.7-1.0g protein / lb bodyweight). a lot of people say they feel the best ever since going on the zone. and the coaches claim it's gives the best performance of any of their athletes. Their emphasis is on performance in diverse functional movements and endurances.
- "Everyone" says you need protein to build muscles. Even vegan bodybuilders say this.
- when first going on a low protein (usually raw) diet, you lose tons of weight and muscle.
- the only low protein bodybuilding/fitness advocates out there are wackos. No, I mean this endearingly, but they are crazy.

crazy low-protein guys:
- Raw power dude. Read the first comment about his book. Read his interview.
- Fruititarian dude. Read his detox article. Most the before/after photos on his site are of people losing weight only.

I don't doubt it's possible to gain some muscle on a very low protein diet. These crazy low protein fitness guys are an example. It's possible to do anything. Bottom line is it seems like the diet is working against your body's effort to make muscle, not with it. This does not sound like optimal health.

I pretty much agree with you scottopoly. The Zone diet sounds pretty sensible. Here's what I am thinking of trying next on my never ending quest for the ultimate, healthy, high energy, muscle producing, easy to prepare, tasty diet...I am going to try eating a combo of the raw diet and the paleo diet. I will eat all raw veggies and fruit combined with lots of lean protein sources and EFA's (hmm, maybe that IS the paleo diet…although I will be all raw in the veggie dept, not sure if the paleo is all raw, or cooked as well)...I am cutting out all grains and dairy. Should be pretty easy, I haven’t had dairy in years and I think maybe I have a bad reaction to grains, as I just never feel great after eating them. We’ll see how it goes.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by SmellyOrc

First off, one gram of protein has ~ 4 calories, not 9

You are correct, I messed that one up. So it's still only 29 grams needed. So Bananas come really close to meeting those needs. There are other fruits and especially vegetables that would push you well over that number.

Originally Posted by SmellyOrc

Dietary protein requirements and body protein metabolism in endurance-trained men -- Meredith et al. 66 (6): 2850 -- Journal of Applied Physiology
This research suggests you need ~0.94g/kg of bodyweight of protein a day. Sure, that is for endurance-trained athletes, but I bet it won't differ much from the amount of protein sedentary people need.

This is interesting, I have different data. That doesn't make me wrong. Their data (which we only see the abstract of, not the methods) is a little vague. They say that they expected .94g/kg but were only able to determine that the need might be greater than the RDA.

The other thing is that these numbers are for endurance trained athletes who would be getting far more calories than a sedentary person. It would be even easier to get the protein they needed from vegetable sources because they'd be eating maybe twice as many calories.

Originally Posted by escapee

You're assuming 100% absorption and utilization of amino acids for body structure

No I'm not assuming anything. If you read the methods from the book that I linked earlier you will see that this is the amount that these animals had to be fed to obtain their required protein. It doesn't break it down by what is used for energy etc, it is simply how much has to go in to support health.

The quote that you linked is out of context. It is one sentence from an entire book. We don't know any of the factors behind that statement. It is simply in a list of bibliographical references. I can't find a full text so I'll say that one statement out of context is not enough to support an argument.

Originally Posted by escapee

In addition, Gorilla is not human, they can synthesize some of the Amino acids and certain nutrients in their digestive tract where as human cannot . So the total amount of amino acids ( diet + own ) required by the gorilla may not be known. Did i also mention that the chimps love to eat monkeys and kill bunch of ants ?

Documentation please. I didn't say a gorilla was human. I just said gorillas can get their protein form mainly vegetable sources. If I said Cows got their protein from vegetable sources would you accuse me of equating humans and cows?

Also do you really know what chimps love? They have been observed on rare occasion to eat some animal products but are scientifically classified as Frugivore, meaning most of their nutritional needs are met by fruits and tender greens. Please find me a source that says a chimp gets a significant portion of its nutrition form animal sources.

Originally Posted by scotopoly

Here is what I know:
- the people at crossfit are passionate about the zone (30% protein, 40% low glycemic load carms, 30% fat, 0.7-1.0g protein / lb bodyweight). a lot of people say they feel the best ever since going on the zone. and the coaches claim it's gives the best performance of any of their athletes. Their emphasis is on performance in diverse functional movements and endurances.
- "Everyone" says you need protein to build muscles. Even vegan bodybuilders say this.
- when first going on a low protein (usually raw) diet, you lose tons of weight and muscle.
- the only low protein bodybuilding/fitness advocates out there are wackos. No, I mean this endearingly, but they are crazy.

-Well that's what they say. There are many who say that they have the best performance on low fat plan based diets. So i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

-I notice that you put quotes around everyone yourself so I don't really need to touch that. Obviously not everyone agrees on that.

-How do you know you lose muscle? What evidence do you have for this? Don't confuse lean mass with muscle mass. Water is lean. Large amounts of sodium as well as other things tend to retain water. So if you lose water weight you will be losing lean mass, but not muscle.

-So you're a psychiatrist as well as a nutritionist. Well I've read accounts of raw body builders and seen video and they generally seem to be well grounded and motivated people. Does that fact that they disagree with you make them crazy?

You make a lot of broad, general and unfounded statements of "fact." You put people who don't agree with your tightly held beliefs in a category like wacko so you don't have to deal with the conflicting information. They don't think you are crazy, most of them have done their fair share of research on the subject and have come to a different conclusion. Why not try to find out why before you stick a label of wacko on them?

[Joeschmoe]

Did some looking for your information

Pan

P. paniscus


Bonobo or pygmy chimpanzee


Fruit 52% (1-100%), flower 2% (0-7%), seed 3% (0-6%), leaves 14% (0-28%), terrestrial herbaceous vegetation 24% (0-55%), bark or root 2% (0-11%), prey 2% (0-3%), fungus, honey; do not hunt or eat monkeys


Diurnal, arboreal and terrestrial, multimale/ multifemale group size 6-15 foraging parties, communities 50-120 individuals


31-34 kg females, 39 kg male


Badrian et al., 1981; Badrian & Malenky, 1984; Hashimoto et al., 1998; Kano, 1983; Kano & Mulavwa, 1984; Malenky & Stiles, 1991; Nishida a & Hiraiwa-Hasegawa, 1987; Silva & Downing, 1995; Uehara, 1990; Wolfheim, 1983

P. troglodytes


Chimpanzee


Fruit 64% (19-99%), seeds 3% (0-30%); flowers 2% (0-18%), leaves 16% (0-56%) (mostly young), pith, stem, and stalk 7% (0-27%), bark/ cambium 2% (0-26%), gum, gall, root, wood, fungus, miscellaneous 2% (0-41%), and all prey items 4% (0-28%); will eat monkeys


Diurnal; arboreal and terrestrial; multimale/ multifemale group size 7-25 females, 5-16 males, fission-fusion


32-68 kg females, 40-80 kg males


Conklin-Brittain et al., 1998; Galdikas & Teleki, 1981; Ghiglieri, 1984; Goodall, 1996; Hladik, 1973, 1977; Isabirye-Basuta, 1989; Kuroda, 1992; Kuroda, et al., 1996; Matsumoto-Oda & Hayashi, 1999; McGrew et al., 1981; Newton-Fisher, 1999; Peters & O’Brien, 1981; Sabater-Pi, 1979; Sugiyama & Koman, 1987; Suzuki, 1969; Tutin & Fernandez, 1993; Tutin et al., 1984, 1991, 1997; van Lanwick-Goodall, 1968; Wrangham, 1977; Wrangham et al., 1998; Yamagiwa et al., 1992

So Bonobo 2% prey items and chimps 4%. Not enough to meet protien requirements

[scottopoly]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

I didn't say a gorilla was human. I just said gorillas can get their protein form mainly vegetable sources. If I said Cows got their protein from vegetable sources would you accuse me of equating humans and cows?

If you start to make human nutritional claims based on the diets of cows, then yes, you are implicitly equating human nutritional needs to cows' nutritional needs. And since nutrition is a very holistic thing anyway, you could forgive the exaggeration of stating that you are equating gorillas and cows.

If you were just claiming that it's possible to get some protein from veggie sources, then we know that. Look at the vegan bodybuilders who eat 200g+ protein per day.

Why are you guys even arguing over what gorillas/monkeys/whatever eat? First, you need to establish that it's at all relevant to what WE need to eat.

-Well that's what they say. There are many who say that they have the best performance on low fat plan based diets. So i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm arguing about protein not fat. I only bring up crossfit not to say that it is the ONLY way, but that it is A way. That the diet they eat is probably not unhealthy.

-I notice that you put quotes around everyone yourself so I don't really need to touch that. Obviously not everyone agrees on that.

I've cited the only two low-protein bodybuilder/fitness advocates I know. This was my original question on this thread.

-How do you know you lose muscle? What evidence do you have for this? Don't confuse lean mass with muscle mass. Water is lean. Large amounts of sodium as well as other things tend to retain water. So if you lose water weight you will be losing lean mass, but not muscle.

Well, it seems to be a part of the detox period. They do lose a lot of weight. I doubt lean vs muscle weight is the issue. But maybe it's all fat they lost.

-So you're a psychiatrist as well as a nutritionist. Well I've read accounts of raw body builders and seen video and they generally seem to be well grounded and motivated people. Does that fact that they disagree with you make them crazy?

Well, obviously this is a judgement call. I'd like you to read the things they wrote without your agenda (winning your argument) in mind.

But anyway, what I'm referring to was how much they claim belief is a part of it. The Raw Power book guy said most people don't build muscle on low-protein diets because they don't believe. I admit the mind is hella powerful, but I've never heard of a diet needing belief. (I hope this doesn't devolve into a thread on subjective reality) Also read the fruititarian guy's detox article. People going on the zone diet at crossfit also have a "detox" period of a few weeks. I tihnk the work "detox" is horribly optimistic on the part of the raw foods people. It is an adaptation period, as would be needed for any major diet change. He also doesn't believe in science, and sees the whole fruititarian thing as a kind of religion or spiritual thing.

BTW, I linked the wrong detox article above, I meant to link this one.

You make a lot of broad, general and unfounded statements of "fact." You put people who don't agree with your tightly held beliefs in a category like wacko so you don't have to deal with the conflicting information. They don't think you are crazy, most of them have done their fair share of research on the subject and have come to a different conclusion. Why not try to find out why before you stick a label of wacko on them?

"My tightly held beliefs": I'm just calling it as I see it. I'd like to be able to eat very low protein and be healthy, but it doesn't seem it's the best. "Fair share of research": The fruititarian guy at least is rejecting science.

[Joeschmoe]

Actually let's get back to why this argument started in the first place. I said that there is a T-shirt with a gorilla on it saying "I get my protein from fruit." Of course this is a joke, but Gorilla's and all other Apes get most of their protein from plant sources. I think I've proved this by now. the rest of this is just ridiculous.

I didn't make a connection between gorillas and humans. You all did. I posted that as a anecdote then i linked to people who body build and don't get 30% protein. All I was saying is that there are divergent views. Some people don't seem to need 1g/kg of protein. Why is that? Maybe there is a different way to look at it.

I've been there. I've tried high-protein (actually ends up being high fat) diets. I've read the books and research. I get it. So why don't you try to understand where I'm coming from?

Say you are correct about the "Zone" 40/30/30 carbs/protein/fat.
If a really healthy active person eats this way they might need 3000kcal per day. If they are really getting 30% of calories from protein they are getting about 1000kcal of protein or about 250grams a day. Show me where this amount is recommended. Or even healthy?

Say you have the same active healthy man. Gets 10% calories from protein (I think the average for SAD is 16%). If they have 3000kcal per day that would be 300kcal from protein. That is 75grams. This falls far more in line with most literature that I've read on protien requirements. if they guy weighs 180 lbs or 82 kilos. Everything, even the the bigest number i saw says that this person needs .94g/kg. That comes out to 77 grams.

So for a healthy,active person the actual amount needed seems to come in a lot closer to the 10% than the 30%.

[Keith]

I'm increasingly suspecting that the carb/protein/fat percentage model is flawed. It seems okay for average calorie intakes, but seems a bit suss at the extremes. If you're an athlete on 3600 calories a day do you really need 6 tbsp[1] of fat daily? (This assumes 30% fat - at 20% it's a 'mere' 4 tbsp per day). Surely there's a cap on the amount of fat a body needs?

Similarly, protein requirements are generally given in grams per kg of body weight. And while body weight roughly correlates to calorie intake, it's not a 1:1 ratio so calculating protein as a percentage of calories is suss.

And that's not even taking exercise into account - if you're doing strength training, do you need to adjust the percentage of protein? By how much? (That's a trick question - the answer is "it depends on your (lean) weight").

I suspect that, if you're serious about nutrition, any macronutrient percentage breakdown is an oversimplification that ignores critical variables such as exercise and body fat percentage.

[1] Note: I'm using aussie tablespoons - that's 8 US tbsp.

[scottopoly]

I'm still looking for more of these low-protein body builders. That was my original question.

I'm just wondering if diets (such as Steve's raw trial) having 25g protein per day are healthy. Steve got more than that, but he was planning for at least 25g.

I attest that since it is hard to build muscles on that diet, it is probably not optimally healthy.

Say you are correct about the "Zone" 40/30/30 carbs/protein/fat.
If a really healthy active person eats this way they might need 3000kcal per day. If they are really getting 30% of calories from protein they are getting about 1000kcal of protein or about 250grams a day. Show me where this amount is recommended. Or even healthy?

You can read it here. They set protein to be at 0.7-1.0g of protein per pound of lean body mass. It's actually a calorie restricted diet at these levels. But they up the fat intake (beyond 30%) once people get the body fat down. (as far as activity level, crossfit workouts are actually really intense)

[Joeschmoe]

Who says it's hard? Steve actually increased his endurance by quite a bit while on the diet. Look at Dr Graham for more info. foodnsport.com. He's been doing the diet for over 20 years.

Your logic is flawed. You are assuming that easy muscle building is optimally healthy. If that were true you could say that health plan without steroids isn't optimally healthy, becasue it's "hard" to build muscle on.

One more question.
Why would an optimal diet need to be calorie restricted?

[Spirittap]

I personally believe a lot of this protein hype is exaggerated. I have gained muscle in the past perfectly fine without eating even close to 1 gram of protein per pound. From experience i have found it comes down to how you work out. Lift big and let each muscle group rest 1 week.

[Iamsuperman]

Bill Pearl (Mr. Universe) recommended 1/2 g per lb of bodyweight in this seminar:
Bodybuilding.com - Dennis Weis - Bill Pearl's Super Nutrition Seminar!. He's also got the muscle to back it up; 242 lbs at 5'10.

[Spirittap]

I think he has to thank a lot of the products he's taken to build that muscle. He says he takes testosterone boosters, steriods for a small stint, and who knows what else.

Would be nice if no one took all these quick fixes.

[Bodhi]

Here's a link to an excellent article on Humanity's Evolutionary Diet and the diet of Apes.

Humanity's Evolutionary Prehistoric Diet and Ape Diets

I have started a 30 trail of raw foods. I am going to aim for a 40% carb, 30% protein, and 30% fat Macro-nutrient profile. I'll be holding my calories between 2,000 and 2,500 daily.

[Joeschmoe]

Beyond veg is well known to raw foodists and has good information, but it is also largely biased toward the paleo-diet. It deals in shades of gray. Saying things like. Human gut morphology has changed since divergence with apes (true) therefore we are obviously made to eat lots of meat (not true).

If you look at gut morphology of carnivores it's wildly different than that of humans. So while they make a good point they take it far out of context. On the spectrum from "full" carnivore to "full" fructivore. Humans still weigh heavily on the fructivore side. One of the great thing about human being is that we can survive for long enough to reproduce on many different diets. But there is a difference between surviving and thriving.

I'm actually curious what the previous poster is planning to eat to get the 30/30/40 ratio. I've always heard that it's very difficult to keep fat that low with protein that high, on a raw diet.
I'd encourage him to use nutridiary.com and play around with the foods he's planning to eat.

[Bodhi]

Joe,
I plan on eating raw dairy products and rare to raw meat to get my protein. I'm currently adding whey protein to my diet until I finish up the jug I have. My first 30 trial will be a transition diet where 80 to 100% of my diet will be raw. I'm planning on having Steak tartare for supper tonight.

[scottopoly]

Wow, let me know how that raw meat goes! I always thought that would be part of the best diet, but I can't bring myself to eat raw meat and you'd have to be careful to get good meat. Anyway, it's great you're trying it.

Joeschmoe, I answered some of the question you have for me in my earlier posts. And I wasn't implying a calorie restricted diet was necessarily ideal.

As far as low protein bodybuilders, I'm still very not convinced. All the vegan bodybuilders I find online talk about their protein sources, how important it is, and some get quite a lot. Even .5g/lb bodyweight (which is, say, 75g-100g per day) is quite a lot compared to the 25g Steve wanted to get. This still makes me think that the 25g-40g Steve was getting or wanted to get is not the best for him.