Why is childbirth painful?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

Yope. I'm knocked up.

Yippeee! Congrats.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Erki

Interesting. My thought was that it(childbirth) actually doesn't have to be painful at all, we have just forgot the ways we are geared and not working with nature but against it.

You'll find there are people who agree with that view:

Joyous Journeys - Be Inspired!

Bornfree!- Laura Shanley's THE Unassisted Childbirth Page!

"How can I even begin to describe my home birth experience? Of course it was the comfort of husband and home, freedom from harmful medical intervention, joyful, painless labour and the sheer ecstasy of birthing my child into my own hands. But it was so much more than that. It was the most profound spiritual connection I have ever made."

At the very least, I'd recommend any pregnant woman look into local birthing centers, if not home birthing, and water birthing, which helps the muscles relax quite a bit and works with squatting.

Oh, and congrats NotesMaeve, I wish you a joyful pregnancy.

[Lenie]

I found it to be not "painful" at all. But I breathed like a yogi on coffee...It was, however *very* uncomfortable. Sort of like being heavily constipated. Sorry.

[beautyscientist]

It is painful because that is the way we have evolved. Not a comforting or uplifting observation, but a true one.

[Honeywith4bees]

The problem that I have with discussions over whether or not child birthing SHOULD be painful or not, is that it then leaves those of us who did experience pain as feeling like we must not have done it RIGHT. Just another reason for us woman to be shamed into not feeling like we've not done the birthing process correctly.
Hurray to ever woman who's gone through the process assisted, unassisted, medically intervened or not. Hurray to every woman who's decided not to go through with the birth of a child, for what ever reason, and hurray for every man who's been supportive of those choices and the woman who made them.

[8 more years]

@erki: its a differnt bond between father and child than it is between mother and child a father sees the pain his wife or partner goes throu and part of him thinks the child has suffered a pain aswell. this kinda gives more of a protective bond of the father wanting to prevent anything from happening to that child again...a father has to grow that bond over time where as the mother has grown it with the child during gestation maybe ...i dont know im not an expert just theories lol

[Dan.Linehan]

This seemed like a decent link about it.

Lessons I've Learned from Our Babies' Births

Congrats NM!

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Erki

So, evolutionarily speaking, childbirth is wrong?

Evolution doesn't think in terms of "right" and "wrong" (Evolution doesn't think, period). We've developed the ability to feel pain because it's useful to know when we suffer trauma so that we can react. Since it makes little difference evolutionarily whether the mother feels pain or not (they can't cancel the birth at this stage and the pain doesn't seem to deter them from having further children) an exception to the general pain response conferred no evolutionary advantage and wasn't selected for.

Childbirth is very, very "right" in evolutionary terms since without it there's no evolution!

Originally Posted by Lisa McGregor

First of all, Congratulations NM.

Seconded.

Originally Posted by Erki

@8 more years: but men never have to and never can go through such torture - is a bond between them and their children then always unattainable then?

I would say yes, but not because of the pain. Pregnant mothers go through biological changes including hormonal changes to prepare them for motherhood. ie. Nature primes them to care for the baby. Since fathers don't undergo this biological change, their connection to the baby won't be the same.

They can certainly love the baby, but they won't experience it the same way as the mother. I'm not a father though. (Conversely, since I'll never be a father who's also experienced being a mother that doesn't necessarily make a difference).

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

The problem that I have with discussions over whether or not child birthing SHOULD be painful or not, is that it then leaves those of us who did experience pain as feeling like we must not have done it RIGHT. Just another reason for us woman to be shamed into not feeling like we've not done the birthing process correctly.

Oh dear lord, no!!! If you produced a healthy baby (and a healthy mother) then you did it right. (If you didn't, that's not necessarily due to anything you did, either).

If you can find a birthing method that produces a healthy baby and is pain-free that's a bonus, but whether or not you experience childbirth pain is no reflection on your quality or value as a mother.

[Erki]

I'll write more later...

@Keith: evolution seems wrong to me, because I don't want to live in a world/universe indifferent to someone's suffering...

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

The problem that I have with discussions over whether or not child birthing SHOULD be painful or not, is that it then leaves those of us who did experience pain as feeling like we must not have done it RIGHT. Just another reason for us woman to be shamed into not feeling like we've not done the birthing process correctly.
Hurray to ever woman who's gone through the process assisted, unassisted, medically intervened or not. Hurray to every woman who's decided not to go through with the birth of a child, for what ever reason, and hurray for every man who's been supportive of those choices and the woman who made them.

Thanks for pointing this out, I didn't even think of this.
"Just another reason"?? Can you name the other reasons why a mother should be ashamed of herself and her ability of birthing? If you'd rather not write them, that's OK too.
I don't think there's anything that they should feel ashamed of. After all they did something that half of the world's population has no hope of doing, even less being "good at it".
I, on the other hand, feel ashamed that I for some reason am saved from the pain. Why?? I most definitely don't deserve it. And enough of myself anyway, those women who had to feel a lot of pain -- did they deserve it?? Surely not.

I also see that I am being offensive even more. I imagine some women who for one reason or other are unable to have children would go through hell or high water, to have that child. And then there's me spouting prattle about how life shouldn't be painful and bla bla bla bla bla bla bla...

Originally Posted by Keith

Childbirth is very, very "right" in evolutionary terms since without it there's no evolution!

Then why did evolution make childbirth potentially very dangerous? Shouldn't evolution have to play it safe, to ensure as much offspring as possible?

Originally Posted by Keith

I would say yes, but not because of the pain. Pregnant mothers go through biological changes including hormonal changes to prepare them for motherhood. ie. Nature primes them to care for the baby. Since fathers don't undergo this biological change, their connection to the baby won't be the same.

They can certainly love the baby, but they won't experience it the same way as the mother. I'm not a father though. (Conversely, since I'll never be a father who's also experienced being a mother that doesn't necessarily make a difference).

But doesn't it suck that should I ever become a father(not anytime soon), I'm always doomed to be inferior to the mother? I can never be as close to the child, I can never feel as if I "went through anything" with her/him, I can never feel the child as a part of myself, I am never needed as much as the mother -- there's nothing like mother's care.

Heh, at the end of the day(post, rather, he he), look what's left of sensitivity or compassionateness or things - it's all about my selfish self. Idiot.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Erki

@Keith: evolution seems wrong to me, because I don't want to live in a world/universe indifferent to someone's suffering...

The universe isn't obligated to cater to our humanocentric wants (well, unless the Subjective Reality crowd are correct, anyway).

Originally Posted by Erki

Then why did evolution make childbirth potentially very dangerous? Shouldn't evolution have to play it safe, to ensure as much offspring as possible?

Natural selection is a process of ongoing tweaks and local optimisations. It achieves the 'good enough' result, rather than the perfect one.

People often have this idea of 'evolutionary progress' (frequently seeing humanity as the 'pinnacle of evolution'). But natural selection is actually just making it up as it goes along in response to whatever's going on at the time. It's experimenting.

An example is the human blind spot. We have that because our optic nerve 'cable' is routed across part of the retina. Really dumb for a deliberate design, but a good illustration of nature working with what it had at the time to achieve a 'good enough' result (Octopi, incidentally have their nerve cable in a much more sensible place and have no blind spot).

Human childbirth is as dangerous as it is as a side-effect of our upright posture. The trend towards two-legged walking resulted in hip bones that are better suited for locomotion, but less suited for childbirth.

Originally Posted by Erki

But doesn't it suck that should I ever become a father(not anytime soon), I'm always doomed to be inferior to the mother?

Yes, it does indeed suck. But life isn't fair. Be glad we're not one of the species where the female devours the male during conception!

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Keith

The universe isn't obligated to cater to our humanocentric wants (well, unless the Subjective Reality crowd are correct, anyway).

Firstly, I'm not very interested in Subjective Reality and I don't believe in it.
I don't know. Maybe I'm half-believing in a "living" Universe - one that is constantly moving and flowing and evolving and most importantly, caring.

Originally Posted by Keith

Natural selection is a process of ongoing tweaks and local optimisations. It achieves the 'good enough' result, rather than the perfect one.

People often have this idea of 'evolutionary progress' (frequently seeing humanity as the 'pinnacle of evolution'). But natural selection is actually just making it up as it goes along in response to whatever's going on at the time. It's experimenting.

An example is the human blind spot. We have that because our optic nerve 'cable' is routed across part of the retina. Really dumb for a deliberate design, but a good illustration of nature working with what it had at the time to achieve a 'good enough' result (Octopi, incidentally have their nerve cable in a much more sensible place and have no blind spot).

Human childbirth is as dangerous as it is as a side-effect of our upright posture. The trend towards two-legged walking resulted in hip bones that are better suited for locomotion, but less suited for childbirth.

I'm not a big fan of evolution. It seems very crude to me. And how can random mutations be a "progress" anyway? More like a series of lucky accidents.

Originally Posted by Keith

Yes, it does indeed suck. But life isn't fair. Be glad we're not one of the species where the female devours the male during conception!

Yes, indeed I should be more grateful.

But sayings like "life just isn't fair, get used to it" I just cannot stomach, for whatever reason that is.

[Keith]

To any mods reading this: You might want to spin off this part of the thread.

Originally Posted by Erki

Firstly, I'm not very interested in Subjective Reality and I don't believe in it.
I don't know. Maybe I'm half-believing in a "living" Universe - one that is constantly moving and flowing and evolving and most importantly, caring.

The interesting thing about beliefs is that they're adaptive (as Steve so effectively illustrates!). Whether that's true or not, there's benefit in believing it - hence the ongoing popularity of religion.

Originally Posted by Erki

I'm not a big fan of evolution. It seems very crude to me. And how can random mutations be a "progress" anyway? More like a series of lucky accidents.

That little paragraph opens a fairly complex can of worms. In summary:

Yes, evolution is very crude (or simple and elegant as I prefer to think ). It's composed of two elements:
1. Evolution - which defined most broadly just means genetic change in a species over time, be it from mutation or (more commonly) from genetic combinations of different parents. Nature 'rolls the dice' with every individual that is born.
2. Natural Selection aka "survival of the fittest". "Fittest" is a bit of a misleading term. Essentially the term boils down to "the individuals who are most suited to survive is likeliest to survive". So on average, the "fittest" survive and breed and their children inherit the 'proven' genetics (with random variation, of course).

So it is a 'series of lucky accidents' but one that are filtered for by a cyclic natural process. It's pretty easy to see how a randomly generated evolutionary advantage could quickly spread to most of the population within generations.

Note that "Fittest" doesn't mean biggest and baddest - it means whatever works best. eg. In a food-scarce environment it might means scrawniest (and thus needing less food).

"Progress" is a human concept and it assumes that you're going somewhere in particular. Evolution doesn't have a particular goal or destination in mind, it just keeps adapting to the environment (which includes other species, BTW). Species often evolve that are supremely suited to their environment only to be superceded by another species when that environment changes. There is no "top rung of the evolutionary ladder", it's all constantly shifting.

My ability to explain all this stuff is limited. If you're interested this site gives a good coverage of the topic. It's focussed on rebutting evolutionist attacks on evolution so it covers potentially misleading facets of the issue in detail.

Originally Posted by Erki

But sayings like "life just isn't fair, get used to it" I just cannot stomach, for whatever reason that is.

I should clarify: Life isn't intrinisically fair. However, fairness is a value that is important to we humans and we can certainly work to implement it. We just shouldn't expect nature to abide by it.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

The problem that I have with discussions over whether or not child birthing SHOULD be painful or not, is that it then leaves those of us who did experience pain as feeling like we must not have done it RIGHT.

I don't feel that there is one right way of birthing/raising a child for everyone, rather it's simply that a parent does whatever he/she can to make things work out. Though I'm a guy, I've researched birthing methods since my early teens and have occasionally considered being a midwife. At the very least I want to research things for my own family, in addition to sharing what I learn with friends when I can. If/when I have a child of my own, regardless of the birth method, I plan on being there for my (future) wife and child as much as possible (rather than being off somewhere else 50+ hours per week), and already find myself making choices to ensure that.

[MariaIsabel]

This is a great question. I'm enjoying this forum. I'm new here.

I've read that some women don't experience any pain at all giving birth. I even know a woman who said that her childbirth experience was very good and that the final expulsion was similar to an orgasm.

Well, this was not my case, but I did prepare myself for my child's birth with a midwife. In one of the sessions this issue came up and she asked the same question. She said that it didn't necessarilly have to be that way, that a lot of the pain is mental anguish due to fear. So I stopped thinking about pain and replaced that idea with "strong sensations". I thought, why not? Maybe I'd be one of those lucky women! I wasn't going to be scared or worried about the pain.

I read a lot about the process. I prepared myself physically and psychologically. I realized meditation and visualization as to how I wanted the birth experience to be, and the result was that I was very relaxed when the time came. When the labor "sensations" began, I gave thanks, because it meant that I would finally see my child's face.

As the labor progressed the sensation got stronger though and it was like nothing I'd been capable of imagining. Despite my play with semantics, it was very painful. Some people say that labor is like strong menstrual cramps. (They are so wrong!!) I did not use an epidural or any other pain relief as I wanted to have a completely natural childbirth. I wanted to be one hundred per cent present with my child (I'm not saying that people who do use pain killers are not there one hundred per cent. This is just how I wanted to do it.), as I thought he was pushing, and it probably didn't feel good for him either. It was hard work, hard physical work, but it was magical too. I wouldn't change a thing about that beautiful night.

(Sorry for the long post) The upshot is, I think, from my experience, that the pain is relative. I think it depends on how you focus your mind and the meaning you assign to it. For me this was not something negative. Perhaps my next birth experience will be "orgasmic" like my friends, but the pain was not unbearable. We got through. It was my act of pure love, my connection with the life force, my barrier to surpass to bring a wonderful human being to this side. To me, that's the reason why. But again, that's my personal experience.

[Honeywith4bees]

[QUOTE=Erki;155498]Thanks for pointing this out, I didn't even think of this.
"Just another reason"?? Can you name the other reasons why a mother should be ashamed of herself and her ability of birthing? If you'd rather not write them, that's OK too.
[/QUOTE

There seems to always be the perception (although maybe it's only in my own eyes) that a mother must DO certain things to be a GOOD mother. For instance, I always got a lot of praise for the style of parenting I chose which is called attachment parenting. My babies slept in my bed rather than a crib, I breastfed exclusively, I homeschooled for a time when they were younger. Many of the woman that I associated with looked down on mothers who didn't do things the "natural" way. I still hear it today. "Baby Y has an ear infection? Oh it must be because Mommy X doesn't breastfeed!!" *shocked gasps from the crowd*
Now that I am back at work and my kids are in public school, I feel like I have failed my children because I have left the ranks of mothers that spend every moment with their children. Again, maybe this is all my own guilt speaking, but I hear it on this thread too. We all want to make sure every one knows that we didn't take pain killers during our labours (not good for the baby), and that if we did, it was for emergency reasons, or we stopped using the painkillers quickly. Like openeyes said, it should be about whats best for us in our current situation, not what we think we should do , and if we start discussing the idea that childbirth shouldn't be painful, that the pain is merely or own attachments, then I begin to feel uncomfortable with the idea because I'm being told what it should or should not be. Am I making sense?

Another thing, there are many women who can't conceive at all, and for some of them their is a tremendous amount of guilt at not being able to birth at all!

[Erki]

For me there is a tremendeous guilt that I never have to feel that pain. As if I used to have that pain, but relegated it to the women. And now I can't do anything to free them from that pain.

[Trezker]

I saw one person mentioning upright walking as the reason womens hips are less loose than other animals. But another thing is our huge brains. Even though we push out our babies really early in their development compared to other animals, the brain is still really big at that time.

Evolution favoured us because we could still get our babies out in sufficient numbers and the upright walking was such a huge advantage in that era.

I just thought that the board game Go is like evolution. It's a very crude game, the simplest rules you could ever think of. Yet it takes many years of practice to weed out all the mistakes in your play. Lots of mistakes survive for a very long time before you discover them. Even the greatest masters learn about mistakes all the time.

Evolution is not survival of the fittest, Darwin never even used those words. Survival of the fittest is an extremely misleading way to think of evolution, death of the sickest would be a better description. Evolution only weeds out the weakest and lets almost everything survive. Sometimes new features appear and if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Erki

For me there is a tremendeous guilt that I never have to feel that pain. As if I used to have that pain, but relegated it to the women. And now I can't do anything to free them from that pain.

I'm not sure how to respond to this except to point out the fact that it's not your responsibility to take away the pain of everyone else. In fact, you are imprisoning yourself with your feelings of guilt by merely trying. And as one poster pointed out, the pain of childbirth is endured for a reason that for most, has a joyous outcome. We women are strong. We can take the pain. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to deal with the million little heartbreaks that come with mothering. (Not to say there aren't ten million little joys that come with it!)

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Erki

"Just another reason"?? Can you name the other reasons why a mother should be ashamed of herself and her ability of birthing? If you'd rather not write them, that's OK too.

Thought of some more!

Women who end up having cesarean births rather than vaginal ones. You see some posters who are proud to say they had subsequent children vaginally as if the first time they did it "wrong".

Women who bypass the birth process altogether by having abortions. That can, and is for many, an incredibly painful (emotionally) process that leaves alot of guilt and shame.

Yesterday morning, there was a radio program on NPR about Ethiopian women who have obstructed births and as a result of not having the necessary medical interventions, these women become completely incontinent after delivery. Because of the incontinence, they then become shunned from their families and villages. Some of the women, mostly young girls really, end up killing themselves due to the trauma.

I think I'll stop now , I'm starting to feel angry

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

I think I'll stop now , I'm starting to feel angry

Yes, me too..

[teatree]

Part of it is evolution - the human brain is bigger as a proportion of the body weight than in other mammals, and bigger skull means pain on delivery.

However part of it may be down to how unfit modern mothers are. A friend of mine read somewhere that if you walked a lot, the birth was easier, so she was walking miles every day right up to delivery - and the delivery was quick, probably down to very strong pelvic muscles. (I haven't got any children - we are trying for some, but with no luck so far - but yes, sometimes you worry about how much it might hurt and avidly collect all info about how to avoid the pain!)

[so7640]

The pain of childbirth is sort of a necessity. In the womb, the fetus lungs are working, but they are "inhaling" and "exhaling" amniotic fluid. When a normal vaginal delivery occurs, the soft nascent rib cage of the baby is compressed as it moves through the vaginal canal, thus compressing the lungs to some extent (Squeezing some of this fluid out!). When the baby makes it out of the vagina, the rib cage will expand and draw air into the lungs, assisting in the first breath. There is still lots of fluid left in the lung, which will eventually be coughed up or reabsorbed into the interstitial tissues of the lungs. If the baby was just allowed to "slide" out, this would not occur, so the muscles and bony structures of the mother make this a tough process, and the pressure results in some intense pain. So the pain is worthwhile after all!

This is further supported by the fact that a babies born from ceasarian section haver a higher incidence of "transient tachypnea of the newborn" (tachypnea means fast, labored breathing") which means the the newborn has a tougher time breathing for the first while.

Just my two cents...

[gettingskinny]

I didn't read all the responses, but I had 2 c-sections, then had a VBA2C (vaginal birth after 2 c-sections). I will never forget the pain, so whoever says women forget is wrong. However, I will take that pain over healing from a c/s any day! I did this in the hospital though and I think if it were at home it still would have been painful, but not as bad. I instinctually wanted to squat and they freaked out and wanted me on my back. I really hope that next time a home birth will happen so I can again be in tune w/my spirit, with the baby and w/Heavenly Father and do it the way I was meant to.

I did have an epi for 2 hours and like Erin, had them turn it off (they thought I was nuts too) and pushed her out naturally. It was insane. My body just took over. When I wanted to push no longer, it didn't matter, I couldn't help it and I have NEVER screamed like that in my life. I truly felt like an animal instinctually giving birth. It was awesome!

[oberlee]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I thought it was because it was Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, and it is in fact original sin thatcauses pain. Because God is evil and so are women...apparently.

lol!!! I know--gotta love the misogyny of the bible...

I think it's funny that moms never tell you A) how painful childbirth is and B) how uncomfortable pregnancy is. It's like someone does a memory charm on all mothers.

To NotesMaeve, good luck! Apparently the sickness gets better as time goes on.

[Erki]

I guess another way to look at this matter is to look up to human(well actually animal too..) body, what forces it can withstand and what amazing things it can do.





Just too bad that I was dealt the weak body..

[carenkh]

There's a wonderful movie out, The Business of Being Born. Very informative about homebirth, birth choices, etc. If you have a PC and a Netflix account, you can watch it online.

[Erock]

Why is the world flat?

[ken nubo]

Perhaps it's mother nature way to keep the population down. Imagine how many humans there would be if we had babies in eggs.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by carenkh

There's a wonderful movie out, The Business of Being Born. Very informative about homebirth, birth choices, etc. If you have a PC and a Netflix account, you can watch it online.

Thanks.

Still, painful or not, the topic of childbirth for some reason makes me feel very uneasy still.