Detox effects, but no energy increase??

[Kingston]

Last year I experimented with my diet, and I have some questions for the experienced dieticians out here

I did a 30-day trial in as a vegetarian, and another trial without diary products and processed food. After both trials I went back to a standard diet because I did not experience any physical or mental improvement.

I did these trials because I was curious about the effects Steve reported after all his diet changes, so I was surprised that I did not experience benefits.. For instance if I were any bit like him, I would have had large energy increases during these two trials.

I had some mild detox effects, mostly bad breath. So this indicates that it did me some good, but why did I not have any positive effects after the detox period? Either I am missing something, or I am completely different from Steve. Anyone knows what's going on here? Could it be that my optimal diet is a simply a "healthy" version of the standard diet? Seems unlikely..

[Holistic Star]

it's hard to say without specific details of what you were and weren't eating

e.g. if you were eating veggy burgers when you were veggy that might leave you feeling sluggish if they had wheat in for example.

it might just be that you cut out things without ensuring that you were replacing the nutrients you were losing e.g. by drinking green smoothies or almond milk etc.

when you say you didn't eat processed food, do you mean you prepared everything yourself from scratch?

[Kingston]

Hi Holistic,

I appreciate your help. I intuit I miss something important about diet experiments in general, not just about the specific complexities of a particular diet. I hope to reach some workable conclusion.

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

e.g. if you were eating veggy burgers when you were veggy that might leave you feeling sluggish if they had wheat in for example.

Yes, it complicates things when you cut out only one or two things. In this example, I did not eat veggie burgers, so that could not have caused a sluggish feeling to counter the energy. But if I remember correctly, Steve did eat veggy burgers when he was a vegetarian, and reported a significant energy increase. So why am I not feeling it?

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

it might just be that you cut out things without ensuring that you were replacing the nutrients you were losing e.g. by drinking green smoothies or almond milk etc.

I have a varied diet and take supplaments on a day I eat not so varied (which is not often). So I don't think that I miss any nutrient. I'm sure the nutrients in meat are covered by nuts, seeds, veggies like broccoli, and even the B-complexes in beer. Whole civilizations are vegatiarian without a problem. And I think broccoli also replaces the calcium deficiency when you cut out milk. BTW, I never drink milk anyway, and have gone without yoghurt or cheese before, without noticible drawbacks. So going without these could not have countered the energy increase, as far as I can tell...

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

when you say you didn't eat processed food, do you mean you prepared everything yourself from scratch?

With "processed foods" I mean factory produced complete meals or sauces, like canned soup, microwavable meals, and instant sauces. I did buy meat which contains some conservants, and drank beer or whine, which technically are processed. Do you think that is enough to counter all of the energy increase I got from going without dairy and factory food? Seems unlikely to me, I you consider that Steve attributes 80% of his energy increase from vegan to the fact that he doesn't take dairy.

I am very curious about these energy increases that Steve reports, but I am also a bit skeptical. In general there could be a placebo effect explaining some of the increase. But that does not explain all I think, since I belief some diets are better than others, which means that there are subjective and objective energy level differences.

But how different are human bodies from each other? If there is such a wide variety of "good" possible diets, what does that mean for an individual? Take meat for instance. According to some theories man switched to meat when the forest (with nuts and tubers) could not harbor the growing population, and man expanded into the savanna, where hunting made him so mobile he populated entire Africa in no time. The body evolved to handle meat.

If we believe this, than I have a hard time believing that meat is a bad for you. Then, when you try for yourself, and find no energy increase, this confirms for me personally that meat is not bad. But Steve has an energy increase by going vegetarian!! So either Steve is deluding himself, or I am deluding myself, or his body is very different from mine. But we have the same ancestors which roamed Africa long ago, hunting for meat...

This is just an example of me trying to get my head around this. Steve keeps on having these big energy increases from every diet change, even the current one that leaves out cooked foods. If his changes are "real and objective", than the best diet is all-raw foods, like the people ate in the forest before they conquered the savannah. That would mean that meat is only needed when there is nothing else around...

So in short, if we have basically the same body, then why do we have different results?

Sorry this is such a long post, but I really wanted to get this down..

[moire]

bad breath can be a sign of just plain hunger, and since you also reported lack of energy... are you sure you were getting enough calories?

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by moire

bad breath can be a sign of just plain hunger, and since you also reported lack of energy... are you sure you were getting enough calories?

I think I got enough calories, because I did not change quantities of food. I just replaced processed foods with prepared foods, and meat with grains and nuts.

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

when you say you didn't eat processed food, do you mean you prepared everything yourself from scratch?

I ate simply, meaning that getting veggies (and meat) and grains from the store and making an ordinary meal. In general nothing with instructions or ingredients on it. Just "what you see is what you get" kind of stuff.

That included bread, which is technically processed grains, but if you take the brown healthy kind, I consider that unprocessed food.

No jam, peanutbutter ect. Simple stuff. No industrial additives. In Europe, these are coded with numbers preceded with "E", like E217. They are consevators, tasty enhancers, artificial flavors and smell, that are "approved" by European health standards, like the FDA in the US. It basically means they are not a serious health risk, whatever long term effect they may have.

So I don't know who to believe. If my energy is the same, that means subjectively these additives are not harmful to me, and I can trust the food authorities. But if Steve is right they are a bad judge, and I am not feeling better because something is still keeping my energy down. But what?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Kingston

So in short, if we have basically the same body, then why do we have different results?

We have different results in many ways. Some people feel nothing bad when they eat junk food all their life, others feel very bad after one visit to McDonalds. Some people can eat pizza every day and won't put on weight, others eat a banana and gain 2lbs. Some people are able to take the hardest medicine, others have to vomit when they take one aspirin (like me). And so on. We don't have the same body!

Some notice the slightest diet changes and others can eat whatever they want, it doesn't seem to have any impact. I don't know why. Some people are less sensitive than others when it comes to such things. I've always asked myself if it's a matter of sensitivity (which would mean that it harms them just like the others, but they don't notice it) or if they are really stronger (which would mean that it doesn't harm them). I don't know.

Originally Posted by Kingston

I am not feeling better because something is still keeping my energy down. But what?

1) are you sure it's a question of nutrition? Is there something else in your life that could be keeping your energy down? Some negative thoughts or problems or unresolved conflicts or...?
2) There are lots of things some people react negatively to, like meat, dairy, sugar, coffeine, gluten... You tried once without meat and once without dairy and processed foods. Why not combine both and try without meat and dairy? Or without grains? Or without sugar? Or without meat, dairy, grains and sugar?

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

We have different results in many ways. (...) We don't have the same body!

If you put it that way we are all different. It's partly genes, but I think the most differences in how we react to foods depend on what we are used to, and the different interactions. So maybe we have the roughly the same body to begin with, but the habits and experiences accumulate, making us and our reaction unique. So possibly if we start the same diet, the differences in history cause different reactions. So we may even be so complex that not just health studies, but even your own experiments can't tell you about yourself! That would explain my different results to identical experiments.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

1) are you sure it's a question of nutrition? Is there something else in your life that could be keeping your energy down? Some negative thoughts or problems or unresolved conflicts or...?

There is always some challenge happening, but I am very emotionally stable, so I don't think that is it. And that factor is constant on average over a 30 day trial, so I should still be able to feel an energy difference from a diet.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

2) There are lots of things some people react negatively to, like meat, dairy, sugar, coffeine, gluten... You tried once without meat and once without dairy and processed foods. Why not combine both and try without meat and dairy? Or without grains? Or without sugar? Or without meat, dairy, grains and sugar?

Those combinations are interesting, and I have been thinking about that all day now, and things are getting clearer with that. Let me try to put it down how I see things now.

I totally agree that caffeine, sugar, aspertame and artificial flavors and colors are bad for almost anyone. It is easier to research, prove and test this for yourself, because these things are single molucules that are identifiable both in health studies and personal experiments.

I think some grains (or gluten) are bad for some people for genetic reasons, but that doesn't go for me as far as I know. (Hmm, what would happen if I did a now grian trial... Might try that, thanks!)

I am not so sure about meat, diary, and conservation additives. These things are composite things, which interact with itself and many things in the body. Things get complicated. It gets even more nasty if you combine different trials, like quitting processed foods, meat, and dairy in a single trial. Say you feel great after, then you never know which of the three is the good and the bad... I would not want to quit meat eating unless it was absolutely needed to feel better. I did that trial, and it did not improve my energy.

So this is what I know so far, about my body and health, from my own experiments:

BAD: Sugar, caffeine, aspertame, high fat fried food, and most artificial flavors and colors.

GOOD: Fruit, veggies, nuts, seeds, beans etc.

NO EFFECT / UNCERTAIN: Meat, processed foods, conservation additives, grains, dairy.

So I guess I will do a trial of cutting processed foods, and decide whether the benifits justify the extra prep time.

If I go with natural history and human evolution, than it makes no sense that meat could be in the BAD category. Maybe only the growth hormone meat, but that can be solved by eating organic/eco meat. I have a hard time believing the last evolutionary jumb was based on an unhealthy diet change.

To a lesser extent that goes for grains to. Civilition became possible with agriculture, and if grain is BAD we have been eating like fools for 10.000 years. That is bold claim!

I am most in doubt about processed foods and dairy. It comes down to WHICH of the additives is putting them in the BAD category, and than avoiding that. I did not have an energy change from cutting processed foods and dairy, and only one mild detox effect (bad breath). I currently have very little dairy because it is likely just an inefficient way of eating, and most of the planet can go without it. So I attribute my detox effects to the cutting of dairy. But why not eat it if the energy level doesn't change?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Kingston

I think some grains (or gluten) are bad for some people for genetic reasons, but that doesn't go for me as far as I know. (Hmm, what would happen if I did a now grian trial... Might try that, thanks!)

As far as you know. Many people feel bad while eating grains. They don't know that it's the grains. They're not even allergic to gluten, they just have strange symptoms or feel tired. Then they stop eating them and feel like superman. I'm not saying it's the case for you, I don't know, but it's worth trying it, really.

No grains means almost no processed foods too, 'cause you'll have a hard time finding processed foods without wheat.

Another question about grains: do you eat them whole, or refined? If refined, it's clear that you should stop, white bread, white flour, white pasta & pizza, white rice etc IS bad. Again, some people will be more sensitive than others to that, but it's definitely #1 things I would eliminate! Refining grains is a very recent dietary jump btw, about a hundred years...

If you switch from refined grains to whole grains, it could happen that you don't notice any difference, if you don't tolerate grains at all. That's why I would completely cut them off for one month, and then try with whole grains and see if it's better/worse.

Originally Posted by Kingston

If I go with natural history and human evolution, than it makes no sense that meat could be in the BAD category. Maybe only the growth hormone meat, but that can be solved by eating organic/eco meat. I have a hard time believing the last evolutionary jumb was based on an unhealthy diet change.

I haven't. For me meat is bad indeed. I notice that very clearly. It messes with my digestion, prevents me from sleeping and makes me feel very crappy. But that's just me. Maybe I'm genetically still the monkey-like human eating no meat.

Originally Posted by Kingston

To a lesser extent that goes for grains to. Civilition became possible with agriculture, and if grain is BAD we have been eating like fools for 10.000 years. That is bold claim!

Are you afraid of bold claims?

Seriously, maybe some people have genetically adapted to meat, grains, and dairy, and others not. I didn't. You have to find out at which point you stopped adapting

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Another question about grains: do you eat them whole, or refined? If refined, it's clear that you should stop, white bread, white flour, white pasta & pizza, white rice etc IS bad. Again, some people will be more sensitive than others to that, but it's definitely #1 things I would eliminate! Refining grains is a very recent dietary jump btw, about a hundred years...

I just ordered a pizza and I am writing this while waiting.. I know white flower is bad, it is like refined suger, all glucose molecules in the blood at once, causing an insuline response that makes you tired. Except that I go to the gym after dinner, so I will be using about 400 of those carbon calories intantly. This is why diet is so complex. I don't want to give up pizza for a mirage.

I will do a no grain trial in the future to find out. Thanks again for the suggestion!

Do you agree with my story of WHY refined grain is BAD? Or am I missing something? (Assuming I can handle grain in general)

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Are you afraid of bold claims?

Seriously, maybe some people have genetically adapted to meat, grains, and dairy, and others not. I didn't. You have to find out at which point you stopped adapting

I like bold claims! As long as they are true...

I guess I will have to accept these big individual differences. It was such I nice idea that we where all alike.

Another hypothesis is that maybe all foods are equally healthy, and that only wrong consumption like overeating and monotony are BAD. Every thing breaks down to the same aminoacids, carbo-hydrates, minerals and vitamins. So the only BAD thing could be wrong quantities for the body at the time. Like the pizza example. A office worker needs a different dinner than a factory worker.

I research some of the additives on the canned soup I had yesterday. They seemed harmless: pressed seeds, pretty close to natural stuff.

Maybe there are no toxins in normal foods (excluding growth hormones and stuff). In that light the detox effects of a diet change can be explained by the body adjusting to different quantities of building blocks, which are then interpreted as detox effects. Do you think that could be the case? Does anyone else?

I SO MUCH want to believe that it doesn't matter what you eat! Or said differently, I intuit it does not matter, and my trials confirm it for my body so far...

I will find the best diet for me!

EDIT: Oh, it's saturday night, and the gym is closed... I guess I have to go out and have fun then! There are sooo many interesting ways to burn away a pizza!

[MasterD]

Are you overeating too often? Eating out of emotions instead of out of need for food?

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by MasterD

Are you overeating too often? Eating out of emotions instead of out of need for food?

No. I used to overeat on some nutrients, like too much salt and carbo-hydrates, because I was bored with life, not knowing what to do. But I was never overweight, and now I eat just right. I go to the gym often and I am a big guy, so I have the same diet, but more balance.

[Jennihul]

The Blood Type Diet :: Peter D'Adamo

www.genotype.com

This will tell you your ideal diet and foods.

Jennifer

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

This will tell you your ideal diet and foods.

Thank you for the pointer, it looks interesting!

Did you try that diet for yourself? How were your experiences, and did they do controlled studies with it? It looks interesting, but I would like to have some independent testimonials to back up the trust in someone I don't know.

Why is this such a good diet, and how can nutrients turn genes on and off? I know enough about genetics to be a bit skeptical, so I am interested in info on how that happens.

[Jennihul]

I fail pretty miserably trying to explain the complex details behind his research but it's very well-researched and I have had tremendous life and health changes as a result of using this diet. Contrarily, now that I have studied it, I can see how badly my family members are doing who aren't using it and aren't interested in changing.

It's not difficult or very restrictive. For me, type O, it is the most restrictive insofar as it doesn't really let you have dairy, wheat, and anything processed.

The genes being turned on and off is pretty common knowledge with geneticists but we aren't talking about the base genes that come from your mom and dad. There are apparently genes that make you who you are and other genetic material that can change based on current environment, diet and exposure to chemicals and toxins and such.

Jennifer

[eblight]

I've come to some conclusions about the food that I eat. I want it to be as fresh as possible, as organically grown as is possible and as unprocessed as possible. Although I don't eat meat I feel that for many others who enjoy it and get a lot of nutrition from it then buy organic meat. If you are young your body metabolises food much more quickly than by the time you are in your forties and fifties. A life time of bad eating catches up with a person as they get older especially if they haven't kept up high levels of fitness and drunk a lot of alcohol as well.

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

It's not difficult or very restrictive. For me, type O, it is the most restrictive insofar as it doesn't really let you have dairy, wheat, and anything processed.

I will put that book on my wishlist, specially since I'm type O myself, and now I do eat wheat and processed food. I sometimes have dairy, but as little as possible (when I eat pizza for example).

Can you explain simply why type O shouldn't have processed foods? I research some of the additives in processed food, but the ones I checked seemed natural stuff to me, like pressed seeds and things like that.

I will do a no-wheat trial in the future.

Thanks alot!

[Kingston]

Originally Posted by eblight

I've come to some conclusions about the food that I eat. I want it to be as fresh as possible, as organically grown as is possible and as unprocessed as possible. (...) A life time of bad eating catches up with a person as they get older especially if they haven't kept up high levels of fitness and drunk a lot of alcohol as well.

Sounds good. It seems like what everyone "knows" is "healthy", which is a lot better than the standard diet. But I still wonder what the downside is of processed food. I can see why it's bad if that is all you eat, because then you don't get enough fiber and micronutrients. That means its lacks stuff, but that's no problem if you eat enough fresh stuff. So I'm not yet convinced there is anything IN processed food that is bad for you.

[Kingston]

I spent the last few hours researching D'Adomo's genotype diet. Starting at the wikepedia entry and branching out to lectins, anthropology and genetics. I understand his main points and I read some of the criticisms.

I think I may still do a 15 day no wheat trial, but I'm more skeptical now. His critics typecally ha