Question for Steve concerning Soy.

[Spirittap]

Hey Steve.

I was wondering if you noticed any bodily changes since you've become vegan. I'm also wondering how much Soy you are consuming.

The reason i'm asking is because i've read a lot good and bad things on Soy. Bad things such as brain shrinkage and soy killing the libido.

I've been a vegetarian for a month now, but i'm really close to being vegan. I consume 3 glasses of soy milk per day and eat 2 meals of soy simulated meat per day. Personally i've been feeling really good.

[Spirittap]

I did some more research and i didn't realize vegans don't have to eat any soy. I'm all new to this, i figured they were eating fake meats and soy milk all the time (besides vegetables and fruits of course). With anything it should be consumed in moderation. Gonna get a book on this.

You can delete this topic if you want.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Spirittap

Hey Steve.

I was wondering if you noticed any bodily changes since you've become vegan. I'm also wondering how much Soy you are consuming.

The reason i'm asking is because i've read a lot good and bad things on Soy. Bad things such as brain shrinkage and soy killing the libido.

I've been a vegetarian for a month now, but i'm really close to being vegan. I consume 3 glasses of soy milk per day and eat 2 meals of soy simulated meat per day. Personally i've been feeling really good.

I've been wondering the same thing myself. Over the holidays I'll be working through my final course (Vegeterian Diet) for my Nutritionist certificate, but I already believe a vegetarian diet is superior to a meat based one. However, Soy I still don't know about. I too have heard good and bad things.

I do wonder though if the "bad" stuff such us it killing your libido is just propaganda by meat eaters because it's easy to sell and spread a story which says that if you don't eat meat, you're not a "man". It's like images of a caveman tearing into a giant piece of meat and ripping it apart show us what a "real man" should eat, versus a guy sitting at a table and eating a salad.

On a related note, I was watching a UFC match the other day. I can't remember the names of the fighters, but one of the fighters was an American guy born and raised on a farm who was HUGE for his weight and trained on the farm by pulling tractor tires and doing farm related stuff. He was a BIG BOY. He went up against another fighter who was a "city guy" who was vegan, and much smaller than him in size (same weight class though). They were saying that the farmer guy might overpower and obliterate the other guy. The fight ended in the beginning of the first round with the farmer dude losing the fight.

It was just really interesting how the whole thing was portrayed. They almost made it sound like it was the wholesome meat-eating farmer dude, against this vegan guy and how the farmer dude is going to whoop his butt. Except that it didn't end up that way.

I kind of wonder if that is the real bias behind the whole negative Soy thing.

Although, I do know that a lot of Soy is Genetically Modified.

I too would like to hear your opinion on it Steve.

[Spirittap]

I heard about the vegan UFC guy.

Before making the change i was eating meat and consuming dairy products everyday. I was even at a point where i'd drink 2 litres of milk per day. I wasn't eating any vegetables or fruits, but i did drink fruit juices.

I figure if i cut my soy intake in half, it can't be as harmful as the way i was eating before. I do eat a lot of vegetables, fruits, and grains now though.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Spirittap

I heard about the vegan UFC guy.

Before making the change i was eating meat and consuming dairy products everyday. I was even at a point where i'd drink 2 litres of milk per day. I wasn't eating any vegetables or fruits, but i did drink fruit juices.

I figure if i cut my soy intake in half, it can't be as harmful as the way i was eating before. I do eat a lot of vegetables, fruits, and grains now though.

I am 2/3 done through my Nutritionist training. I'm already a Certified Sports Nutrition Consultant as well. I can tell you without any doubt that eating meat and consuming lots of dairy products is not good for you, so it sounds like your new diet is a lot better.

However, making the switch to a vegetarian and vegan diet doesn't guarantee success either. Meaning, technically speaking, eating chocolate bars and drinking Coke all day is vegan, but it's not healthy.

Having said that, I still haven't fully cut out meats out of my diet or dairy products. Although I don't drink milk, I still have dairy in my diet when I have things like sour cream or ice cream or cheese etc. I have cut down my meat consumption significantly over the last few years as well as dairy but haven't made the final leap towards a full vegan diet.

I still eat some meat and dairy, not because they are good for me, but because I'm still addicted to them. That and refined sugar. Sugar is the worst addiction of all in my opinion.

[Erin Pavlina]

Try to eat soy in its most natural state like edamame. That's where the benefits are. Over processed soy like in veggie burgers or fake turkey slices, etc should be eaten in moderation.

Men won't turn into women if they eat soy.

But boys apparently develop breasts if they drink too much cow's milk since it is so high in estrogen. The estrogen in soy is phytoestrogens which don't have the same effect on us as mammalian estrogen.

Concentrate your diet on fruits, veggies, nuts, whole grains, and legumes and you'll be all set.

[Spirittap]

Thanks! I'm glad i didn't develop breasts, lol.

[oakspringer]

I have to say that this whole soy thing and men is a totally bunch of junk. At least for me.

I have been a veg over a year and even eating some of the Products that Erin has mentioned did not affect me.

I have noticed no adverse side affects from soy, and my libido probably increased going from meat to veg.

I've had lots of soy milk, lots of soy products, and just pretty much don't worry about it.

I also work out alot so maybe that helps to balance the unstoppable Estrogenic force from overtaking my entire body! AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

Just kidding

[eblight]

I have been a vego for the past twenty eight years and also long periods of being vegan. I gave up all dairy for a long long time. Now I have moderate amounts of yoghurt. No matter what you're eating it makes sense to eat as organically as possible. I gave up soy products after doing a lot of research into the side effects of long term use of soy. Fermented soy prodcuts seem to be okay. I use rice milk now and find that that suits me much better. I also have plenty of the superfoods like spirulina for protein and barley grass, wheat grass, and chlorella. These foods give me heaps of energy and stabilize my blood sugar so that I don't feel hungry between meals.

[Rose of Cairo]

Nothing killed my libido , but I must say that I don't eat much soy. You don't have to eat soy products all the time as a vegan. There is protein in whole grains, there is protein in vegetables, there is protein in nuts, there is protein in legumes... Don't worry about protein. You don't have to eat soy. But if you do, take organic soy. Most of the conventional soy is genetically modified, and that could have some negative effects indeed.

I also think that the negative soy thing is propaganda. The chinese, who've been eating a lot of soy for thousands of years, are not really childless There is a lot of propaganda against vegan nutrition. However, soy is not a must if you want to get vegan. Eat whole grains, nuts and vegetables, mushrooms and germinated beans, and you'll be fine without soy.

[Savage]

I don't have a strong opinion on soy based on my own experience. Sometimes I've gone more than a month with no soy products, while other times I've eaten soy every day. I didn't notice a major impact either way. I did, however, notice benefits to going raw for a while, but that eliminated a lot more than just soy.

I do enjoy edamame, and so do our kids. I also enjoy tofu with hot sauce.

I don't drink soy milk, since I never liked the taste of it. I prefer rice milk instead.

I suspect much of the controversy around soy is largely driven by financial interests on both sides. It seems like more of a marketing battle than an intellectual one.

[twa2w]

hocolate bars and drinking Coke all day is vegan, but it's not healthy.

I know you were using this to make a point however neither chocolate nor Coke are Vegan.
Both contain sugar which is processed using charred bones from cattle

[Rose of Cairo]

WHAT?! Really?

[martin]

My friend (who is male) developed small breasts and swollen nipples from drinking about 2 gallons of soy milk a week over 6 months. I'm not even kidding. Needless to say he stopped drinking the soy.

[spaceistheplace]

soy is absolute junk, and hard to digest for most people. i even try to make sure the supplements i take are soy free.

[Spirittap]

Originally Posted by martin

My friend (who is male) developed small breasts and swollen nipples from drinking about 2 gallons of soy milk a week over 6 months. I'm not even kidding. Needless to say he stopped drinking the soy.

Your friend drank around 4 cups of soy milk per day for 6 months and developed small breasts and swollen nipples? That's a little hard to believe. Did a doctor tell him that?

I did a little research and several potential causes are steroid use, certain anti-depressants, acid reflux, blood pressure and prostate drugs.

"extensive clinical research shows that neither soyfoods nor isoflavones affect testosterone levels in men."

The Soyfoods Council

[Spirittap]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm thinking of drinking only 2 glasses of soy or rice milk per day and eating simulated meat once a week at most.

[escapee]

Soy should only be eaten in fermented state and it must be NON -GMO, Fermentation destroys most of its anti nutrients that are potentially harmful for human.

Soy Dangers Summarised

High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.

Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.

Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.

Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.

Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body’s requirement for B12.

Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D.

Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.

Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.

Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and added to many soy foods.

Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.

Soy and Estrogen Dominance ( The traditional wisdom largely ignored by modern world )

The soy isoflavone genistein and daidzein are similar to 17 beta-estradiols, but are 100,000 times weaker in estrogenic activity and are therefore weak estrogens. Although these isoflavones are weak estrogens, people who eat a lot of it can have their blood level of isoflavones as mush as 10,000 times higher than those who do not consume soy.

The Chinese and Japanese have known about the toxicity of soy for centuries. Soy contains a variety of toxic chemicals, which cannot be fully metabolized by the body, unless it undergoes a long cooking, or fermentation process. Unfermented soy contains phylates, which acts as an anti-nutrient and blocks the body’s absorption of minerals from the gastro intestinal track. It also contains enzymes inhibitors that reduce protein digestion. Processed soy protein contains carcinogens such as nitrates, lysinoalanine, as well as a large group of anti-nutrients not found in traditional soy consumed in Asia. It also lacks calcium and causes a deficiency of vitamin D, both of which are not conducive for bone building.

The way soy is consumed in Asia is that it is allowed to be fermented first for a long time, from 6 months to 3 years. Only after extensive fermentation is soy being eaten as a condiment and not as a replacement for animal food. Fermented soy includes miso, tempeh, and natto and does not have the negative properties of unfermented soy. Miso is widely used as a soup base in Japan. Natto is a foul smelling fermented soybean preparation that has been consumed in Japan for over 1,000 years. Natto also has a high concentration of vitamin K2, a critical nutrient for bone building. It also has the extraordinary property of dissolving blood clots and keeping our blood vessels clear.

BTW i do not drink both the commericial cow milk and Soy milk .

eating simulated meat once a week at most.

Does it contain MSG or hidden chemical ingredients ?

[Spirittap]

escapee, it doesn't say anything about msg, and i doubt they'd list hidden chemical ingredients if they put some (hehe).

I'm pretty sure drinking 2 glasses of soy milk per day instead of 3-8 glasses of cow's milk is healthier. Good thing is now i have room for more water (i was barely drinking any). Also eating simulated meat once a week instead of eating animal meat everyday is probably healthier too. I'm not really worried.

My natural defense system never went off while i was eating a ton of soy for a month. I still remember eating fries with gravy and i heard a voice say there's animal product in that gravy. I was surprised and shocked at the sametime, went to check it out and it was true. I cried a little while i emptied my plate into the garbage.

[escapee]

I'm pretty sure drinking 2 glasses of soy milk per day instead of 3-8 glasses of cow's milk is healthier.

I have disagree on this commercial soy milk contains high quantity of Aluminium, chemicas and other anti nutrients that aren't destroyed in the process


Soy milk aluminium content - Google Search

Also eating simulated meat once a week instead of eating animal meat everyday is probably healthier too.

Is probably ?

Do you know that the way you cook determine the nutritional value of meat ?

Do you know there is a massive difference in nutritional value between fish in deep sea and fish raised by human ( with deficient feed ) in pond ? The same goes to beef, chicken and etc.

Consumers Beware: Dangerous Levels of Arsenic Found in Non-Organic Chicken

Brand name chicken products sold in American supermarkets and
fast food restaurants are widely contaminated with arsenic, according to
independent test results released today by the Institute for Agriculture and
Trade Policy (IATP).

[Spirittap]

I've read many reports on the benefits of Soy Milk. One side says one thing and the other says another, *shrugs*.

I mainly ate red meat. The risks of red meat are well known.

I didn't make the switch from omni to vegetarian/vegan based on my health, but for the health of animals. Later i realized the Spiritual benefits, which was a nice bonus.

[escapee]

I mainly ate red meat. The risks of red meat are well known.

Do you know what are the causes of the risk ( cancer and heart disease ) in question ?

Are there pesticide, Hormone , burnt protein or the commercial polyunsaturated fat based corn/soy oil used to grilled the red meat ?

Dietary lipid hydroperoxides induce expression of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) in human colorectal tumor cells -- Jurek et al. 19 (1): 97 -- The FASEB Journal

Oxidants from endogenous sources are considered procarcinogenic agents. These include lipid peroxides formed from polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) during (chronic) inflammation. Similar oxidation products may be formed exogenously from PUFA ( vegetable oil ) in dietary fats and oils. Oxidation of dietary lipids is greatly enhanced at higher temperatures during cooking. Consequently, fatty acid hydroperoxides are normal contaminants of our diet. As much as 25% of oxidized polar compounds consisting of hydroperoxides and their split products have been found in oils repeatedly used for frying. Using lipid membranes and tissue culture models, we have shown that such hydroperoxides interact with the lipid bilayer of cell membranes. They induce the formation of lipid radicals that enter the cells and cause toxic damage and disturb regulatory networks.

Myths and Truths About Beef

What about the accusation that beef causes cancer, in particular cancer of the colon? The genesis of this myth involves more than just muddied thinking, but actual skulduggery. In 1965 an influential physician, Ernst Wynder, took the data for the mostly processed vegetable oils, called them animal fat (which they were not) and compared them with worldwide colon cancer mortality.6 The table he produced showed high rates of colon cancer in European countries and low rates of colon cancer in Japan, and concluded that there was a positive effect, in other words, that saturated fat, the kind found in beef, caused colon cancer. What the data actually showed was that consumption of polyunsaturated vegetable oils, not saturated animal fats, was associated with the incidence of colon cancer. And Wynder forgot to mention that Asians have much higher rates than Americans of other types of cancers, particularly cancers of the liver, pancreas, stomach, esophagus and lungs.

Now you know why vegetarian French fries ( larger surface contact with trans fats and oxidized fats ) are more dangerous than deep fried Beef ?

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by twa2w

I know you were using this to make a point however neither chocolate nor Coke are Vegan.
Both contain sugar which is processed using charred bones from cattle

As someone who has been in contact with a lot of vegan ethical experts over the years, the ruling thought on sugar is that it is considered vegan. Here's why. First, tap water is also processed through the same bone char so if we're going to avoid sugar for that reason we'd also have to stop bathing and cooking with tap water. Second, most sugar in the United States is now processed without bone char. Many years ago it was 50% and if you lived east of the Mississippi you were getting beet sugar, not cane sugar which is the one processed through bone char. Nowadays, apparently, even cane sugar is processed through non bone char filters.

The ethical vegan experts have "ruled" that vegans can eat sugar. Now, it's not healthy so you may want to avoid it, but it is considerered vegan. If you look up Joanne Stepaniak on the internet and also look up sugar you'll probably find her stance on it.

[twa2w]

Bone char is used to remove fluoride from water and to filter aquarium water.

It is often used in the sugar refining industry for decolorizing (a process patented by Louis Constant in 1812). This is a concern for vegans and vegetarians, since about a quarter of the sugar in the US is processed using bone char as a filter (about half of all sugar from sugar cane is processed with bone char, the rest with activated carbon). As bone char does not get into the sugar, sugar processed this way is considered parve/Kosher.

From my source - about a 1/4 of cane suger processed in the US uses Bone char but very little cane sugar appears to be processed in the US. over 1/2 the worlds cane suger still appears to be BC processed - most of which is likely sold inthe US as they are the likely the largest consumers of suger.
I wasn't aware the Vegans had Oked sugar -PETA still has this on the website

If you want to avoid all refined sugars, we recommend alternatives such as Sucanat and turbinado sugar, which are not filtered with bone char. Additionally, beet sugar—though normally refined—never involves the use of bone char and Edward & Sons Trading Company has developed a vegan confectioner's sugar which should be available in health food stores soon.

Sounds like some 'ethical' vegans really can't give up their sweets. They won't use wool yet the sheep lives and is usually free roaming and not significantly stressed, and yet they will eat sugar where the cow actually dies. mmm what's wrong with this picture.

If I was a vegan I would think it would be a great reason to cut sugar out of your diet. After all there are alternative natural sweeteners that are clearly vegan.

Cheers
J

[himalaya7]

Originally Posted by martin

My friend (who is male) developed small breasts and swollen nipples from drinking about 2 gallons of soy milk a week over 6 months. I'm not even kidding. Needless to say he stopped drinking the soy.

Glad to hear that when your friend quit drinking 2 gallons/day of hormone-laden milk and switched to 2 gallons of soymilk, his breasts became small!

Seriously now, anecdotal reports, even if accurate, tend to be more misleading than helpful.

[Ecstasy]

I drink soy milk that I make directly from soy beans. Does this avoid some of the harms or not so much?

[laur_454]

sounds like it would! Can you share the process with us on how you make it?

[Ceros]

I consumed quite a lot of soy and soy milk on a daily basis when I tried out veganism.

I gave up soy meat substitutes because they were giving me loose stools, and the milk because after reading that one study on it causing dementia, the risks weren't worth the reward (I'd rather drink more tea, really). I did enjoy the taste, though.

As for the sex drive, consuming all that soy plus spearmint/peppermint tea (also rumored to decrease sex drive) had some effect on my libido, but it was minor and I can't exactly place what it was. It hasn't really disappeared anywhere, though, and I don't really think it even decreased. It was just different than normal.

With this anecdotal evidence in mind, I really don't think that healthy males should be afraid of becoming emasculated from soy products. I'd watch out for that dementia, though.

[dbstraight]

I've always thought of it this way. If any food source becomes over 50% of your calorie intake, you have a problem. I have no doubt that many non-vegetarians who don't watch their diet consume over 50% of their calories in meat and/or simple carbs. The problem is, I also have no doubt that many vegetarians who don't watch their diet consume over 50% of their calories in soy and/or simple carbs. Whether it's healthy or not (and I think that both soy and meat are healthy in moderation), it can't be healthy when you eat that much of it.

It seems to me the way to go is to eat a wide range of foods, balancing fruits, veggies, and whole grains, with small amounts of meat (incl. fish and poulty), dairy, simple carbs, and sweets.

Like someone said, eating nothing but chocolate bars and drinking nothing but Coke is vegan (or at the very least, vegetarian), but it's certainly not healthy. Being a vegan or a vegetarian is not automatically healthy. Eating a sensible diet is.

[Dannyboy1]

I just bought a huge container of Soy Protein Powder! Is this bad for me?