Is Veganism Really the Optimal Choice?

[Andrew Brunelle]

I had considered converting to a vegetarian/vegan diet until I stumpled upon a couple of websites that stated how many of the people on these types of diets, eating no animal prducts, tend to have deficiencies. I remember Vitamin B 12 and Vitmain D to be two notables. And the question is if a diet that doesn't include essential vitamins and minerals so that we're forced to take a supplement doesn't seem like it's really an optimal diet....so I don't know if it is indeed the optimal diet if it doesn't really meet all the needs necessary for living. How can you have a diet that doesn't supply everything your body needs?? Just food for thought.

[WanderingOak]

I think it really depends on many factors such as an individual's genotype (ie heredity), physical health, lifestyle, evironment, etc. I do not think there is one optimal diet that will work for everybody. One person could be lactose interolerant, another could have nut alergies, while yet a third could hace Celiac Disease. IMHO, all of these factors need to be taken into consideration when determining what an individual's diet should be.

[gberardi]

B-12 comes from topsoil (and eating plants that weren't stripped clean was how we used to get it naturally) and D can be made from the sun if you go outside.

How does one get B-12 or D from any food? They are artificially added these days. Animals just eat them from foods that are artificially fortified with B-12, so eating an animal is getting it artificially second-hand, along with all of the problems that come with eating animal-based food.

We get enough Vitamin D by being out in the sun for 15 minutes every few days.

[Michelle]

I share your thinking, Andrew, which is why I started eating meat again after a 2 month vegetarian experiment. I simply was not getting what my body needs.

[thadroe]

I think the most optimal diet for anyone is simply one that includes large amounts of natural plant food, whether you eat some meat or not.

I find it interesting though...that when most people talk about deficiencies, they tend to talk about vegan or vegetarian diets. However, anyone who centers most of their meals around meat and/or processed foods is going to be far more deficient in nutrients than a vegan/vegetarian diet of mostly plant food.

I'm not just talking about the basic vitamins, like A, C, E etc...I'm talking about all the 1000's, perhaps millions of micronutrients and phytochemicals our bodies desperately crave...the ones only found in plant food. Those are the real nutrients people should be concerned about...flavonids, carotenoids, allyl sulfides, indoles, isoflavones...etc. etc. These are all extremely critical nutrients that most people don't even know exist.

Thad

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by thadroe

I find it interesting though...that when most people talk about deficiencies, they tend to talk about vegan or vegetarian diets. However, anyone who centers most of their meals around meat and/or processed foods is going to be far more deficient in nutrients than a vegan/vegetarian diet of mostly plant food.

Well, personally I am not talking about "centering" my diet around me. Simply, about including it. It is the restrictions which get to me. There must be a reason why so many people eat meat. And I don't think it is because most people are cruel, arbitrary, closed-minded killers.

[thadroe]

Originally Posted by Michelle

Well, personally I am not talking about "centering" my diet around me. Simply, about including it. It is the restrictions which get to me. There must be a reason why so many people eat meat. And I don't think it is because most people are cruel, arbitrary, closed-minded killers.

Hi Michelle,

I wasn't really talking about you specifically. I just make that comment because at least in America, we are at a point where around 50% of the average person's diet is meat......that's a severely deficient diet. Yet those same people tend to see a vegetarian diet as deficient.

As far as why people eat meat. Humans are naturally opportunistic when it comes to concentrated calories, which meat is....we are naturally attracted to seek out concentrated calories for when they are presented. It gives us pleasure. However, the problem in our modern society is that all these concentrated calories are more available than ever before...too available.

Thad

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Michelle

I share your thinking, Andrew, which is why I started eating meat again after a 2 month vegetarian experiment. I simply was not getting what my body needs.

Then you werent eating a balanced diet then.

A vegan diet can be trash. Just think chip sandwiches 24/7 its that easy.

The fact is that people who educate themselves properly on nutrition know what to eat and what to avoid.

I avoid meat primarily for ethical reasons, but also secondarily because as a human I am a herbivore.

Humans just dont have predatory instincts like carnivores.

Take the domestic tabby cat. No matter how long you molly cuddle it and over how many generations, as soon as it sees a sparrow or a mouse it drools at the mouth and is off on a stalk. You cannot domesticate predatory instinct.

Humans on the other hand dont drool at the mouth when they pass a cow or a young lamb in a field. They more likely will go all mushy and think, 'how cute'. Nor would many have the nerve to go up to that lamb and rip its throat with our teeth and eat it raw. Why? Firstly, we dont have the instinct to do that. In fact if we saw that new born lamb being stalked by a couple of crows we would probably try to scare the crows away. Also, our teeth are designed to grind vegetation and pulses, nuts etc: not to rip flesh open.
Our stomachs also cant handle meat very well. We simply dont have the levels of hydrocholric acid that carnivores have in theirs. Our stomachs are designed for a herbivore.


We can be brainwashed as much as we want by Milk/Meat Marketing Boards but the biological and psychological facts of humans betrays the advertising every time.

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Then you werent eating a balanced diet then.

A vegan diet can be trash. Just think chip sandwiches 24/7 its that easy.

The fact is that people who educate themselves properly on nutrition know what to eat and what to avoid.

I avoid meat primarily for ethical reasons, but also secondarily because as a human I am a herbivore.

Humans just dont have predatory instincts like carnivores.

Maybe. I switched to vegetarianism for ethical reasons. However, I must stand on stage for 4 to 5 hours at a time, and have enough stamina to let my body vibrate and resonate within the full capacity of it's power for the duration.

As a vegetarian I had trouble with 30 minutes, and believe me, I was not eating chips and dip.

If I have to choose between an animal's life and my own singing, my singing will come first. I don't care what animal it is.

Also, I believe humans are very predatory. Some are ruthless and will not stop before they get what they want. I love the feeling of "hunting" someone on stage or in the bedroom.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Michelle

There must be a reason why so many people eat meat. And I don't think it is because most people are cruel, arbitrary, closed-minded killers.

I can't resist saying that just because a lot of people do something doesn't make it right. But besides that, eating meat is an evolutionary advantage. It allows humans to survive when there isn't enough plant food available. Many years ago when humans were hunter-gatherers, they didn't always have a reliable source of plant food, or not enough of it, or not year round, etc. so meat came in handy. Humans also can, and have resorted to cannibalism to survive in extreme situations.

These days people eat meat mostly because they were conditioned to do it by society. In the US at least, there's a huge amount of money made by the meat & dairy industries. They have the power to lobby the government to get their way and suppress the truth. Look at the FDA Food Pyramid for instance -- they've had many years to revise it but they don't. Probably because of industry pressure. Compare this to the modern Harvard Food Pyramid. Notice that the FDA pyramid recommends eating 2-3 servings of meat/poultry/fish/eggs, and 2-3 servings of dairy per day. The Harvard pyramid recommends 0-2 servings of fish/poultry/eggs, 1-2 servings dairy or calcium supplement, and red meat and butter are all the way at the top in the "use sparingly" area. The pyramid is not vegan, but it's very close to being vegetarian and it wasn't even developed by people who're pushing a vegetarian/vegan diet.

[cgs]

Michelle, check your calorie intake. If you are eating enough complex carbs, you will feel very energetic. Exercise will also energize you.

[Wanderer]

It seems to me that a great deal of the most sucessful people in life are vegans/vegitarians. I think the best advice that I have ever heard about diet is try it (maybe using a 30 day trial) and then judge how you feel afterwards, as everyones body is different this will be the best way to judge what you should be eating etc.
E.G. I rarely eat chocolate as afterwards I feel lethargic and unenergetic - simple really listen to your body

Originally Posted by Michelle

If I have to choose between an animal's life and my own singing, my singing will come first. I don't care what animal it is.

The last bengali tiger in the world?
An endangered species of insect which could hold the cure to cancer?
A person (were animals too you know)?

How important is your singing to you?

Just my 2 cents
W

[supman]

I'm vegetarian and i am bouncing with energy.
i eat right, i feel right - i haven't even had a cold for 2 years.
i take great pleasure not eating meat which is odd because maybe if meat didn't exist i wouldn't enjoy my food so much; i think meat is ogrish and macabre - i enjoy the relief of not having to eat it but that's my issue

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The last bengali tiger in the world?
An endangered species of insect which could hold the cure to cancer?
A person (were animals too you know)?

How important is your singing to you?

I appreciate the thought provocation, but I don't know when I would ever be in a position to eat the last Bengali tiger. Mainly I can choose between cow and chicken and pig. All good choices, I might add.

You might ask, how important is my singing to the world? A Singer’s Life Blog » Blog Archive » Job Description

If I could find a way to feel so strong and vibrant without meat as I do with meat, there would be no question of my conversion.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Michelle

If I have to choose between an animal's life and my own singing, my singing will come first. I don't care what animal it is.

(Yay! Now there's root chakra to be proud of!)

Did it ever come across anyone's mind that the animal might choose to be part of Michelle's powerful singing or choose to mingle with her body's consciousness? Hmmm.

[thadroe]

...just to add to the issue of energy. I know a lot of people will feel worse before they feel better when making a drastic change to a healthier diet.

I went through this. I almost literally went from eating McDonalds every day to an unprocessed vegan diet overnight (although now I'll eat animal products once every week or so). But initially...I didn't fully notice the positive effects until about 2-6 months into it.

I didn't feel good at first, but over time, I lost 50 lbs, reversed my diabetes, cured my high triglycerides, lowered cholesterol to normal levels, lowered my blood pressure, got rid of my acne, stopped getting cold sores, stopped getting ulcers, and stopped getting sick in general. It didn't happen overnight...it was a slow improvement over many months and I definitely felt worse before things got better.

Thad

[Wanderer]

Michelle
More than a singer you believe you can also be a:
'Toucher of the Soul and Spirit, Joy and Light Bearer, Planet Beautifier, Soother, Relaxer, Life Enjoyer, Fun Lover, Thought Provoker, Pain Reliever, Dream Maker, Entertainer, Inspirer, Hope Instiller, Powerful Vibration Transmitter, Exciter, Hope Giver, Healer, Comedian, Politician, Teacher, Philosopher, Lover'

Personally I think its great that you believe that you can help people and touch peoples lives with your music. Is it right that you should do so at the expense of an animals life? Perhaps I was misled by you saying:

'If I have to choose between an animal's life and my own singing, my singing will come first. I don't care what animal it is.'

Perhaps you will never be in a position to eat the last bengali tiger but the cow that you just ate for dinner, will have had a similar amount of energy as the tiger (I think), and as far as I can tell no-one has the right to take away the life of an animal purely to fulfill your purpose. Hitlers purpose was to create an arean race, to do this he believed that he had to kill inferiors (particularly jews) in their millions. The only real difference between eating meat and killing people is we generally see people as a higher race, but their are many people still alive that Im sure believe they are superior to other races. In no way am I trying to compare you to Hitler, Im just suggesting that maybe the good you are doing with your singing is been counteracted by the evil you are doing when you kill animals for food, when many people testify that vegetables are satisfactory.

Just my 2 cents (hope I didnt offend anyone)
W

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I avoid meat primarily for ethical reasons, but also secondarily because as a human I am a herbivore.
Humans just dont have predatory instincts like carnivores. [...]

Why do people keep forgetting the third option? People aren't genetically carnivores or herbivores - we're omnivores: able to eat whatever's available.

And even [b]three[/]b options is a simplification; there's a whole spectrum of options within 'omnivorous' (from almost carnivorous to almost herbivorous); or for that matter within herbivorous (just grass? primarily fruits? etc.).

Let's not fall into the trap of "either/or" thinking...

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Keith

Why do people keep forgetting the third option? People aren't genetically carnivores or herbivores - we're omnivores: able to eat whatever's available.

And even [b]three[/]b options is a simplification; there's a whole spectrum of options within 'omnivorous' (from almost carnivorous to almost herbivorous); or for that matter within herbivorous (just grass? primarily fruits? etc.).

Lets not fall into the trap of "either/or" thinking...

The only trap that I can see is the trap most people make by never breaking free from the brainwashing that they plastered with morning, noon and night.

Use mother nature as your guide. Humans got along quite fine without vitamin supplements and colonic irrigation until our 'intelligence' designed all these wonderful contraptions that we are slaves to. (All in the last 200 years)

The bottom line for me is this: Mother mature has provided us with an amazing body designed to use the abundance of plants, grains and nuts that used to be so widespread until we in our great wisdom decided that we should clear forests and meadows so that we can graze sheep and cows for our consumption.

I think if you look behind the 'prime beef' and the 'succulent oysters' you will find a fat cat counting his money at the expence of your health and your wealth. If it doesnt taste 'right' in its unprocessed state: be cautious. Try eating a bit of dead pig raw (Oh! thats right- we call it Prime Danish Bacon) Or what about a dead baby calf (Oh! thats right we call it tender veal)

If anyone is dubious about the quality of a vegan diet just look at the next elephant or horse, giraffe or rhino that passes your way. Oh! but where do they get their protein and calcium from....? Groan......

Do yourself, other species and the environment a favour and look around us at the natural world and its creatures.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Michelle

Maybe. I switched to vegetarianism for ethical reasons. However, I must stand on stage for 4 to 5 hours at a time, and have enough stamina to let my body vibrate and resonate within the full capacity of it's power for the duration.

As a vegetarian I had trouble with 30 minutes, and believe me, I was not eating chips and dip.

If I have to choose between an animal's life and my own singing, my singing will come first. I don't care what animal it is.

Also, I believe humans are very predatory. Some are ruthless and will not stop before they get what they want. I love the feeling of "hunting" someone on stage or in the bedroom.

So Michelle what you are saying is that you "switched to vegetarianism for ethical reasons" aka You morally found it unacceptable to kill animals for food. BUT you had a hunch that the dead animals that you consumed gave you the power of strong vocals? Now thats a first.

No matter. What shocks me is that you would disengage from morality for your own benefit.

Is that not what the rapist does when he gives his bodily cravings more priority than the integrity of another human being?

Is that not what the paedophile does?

Is that not what the warlords do when they 'shock and awe' (mass indiscriminate murder) when they have a strategic goal to accomplish to gain a future economic or strategic benefit?

Michelle. If you really did try vegetarianism out for ethical reasons then I hope that you might see that ethics and morality are non-negotiable.

[J1234]

Hi all,
I guess each of us can only talk about our own personal experience; here's mine.

As a teen, my home was full of processed food. I ate bagels and cream cheese every morning, partially hydrogenated pbj with chips and a 'juice drink' for lunch, ice cream or chips as an after school snack and either fast food, left over resturaunt food or a frozen pizza for dinner. I also drank lots of diet soda, ate lots of candy bars and all of the other typically teen things.

In short, like many teens, busy people or people with naggy kids, I wasn't getting much home cooking.

When I moved out, I didn't have very much money. I was forced to make food from scratch. I started with eating raw fruits and veggies and progressed to making more complicated things like quick breads and pasta sauce, but raw fruits and veggies were always my base. I wasn't a vegan or a vegitarian, just an infrequent meat eater.

In a few months, I went from feeling like a 5.3 to feeling like a 7.8.

Since then, I've tried supplements, raw dieting, and daily juicing. I don't think I'd ever really experienced all that much change as when I started cooking for myself from scratch. I think all I really needed was the empowerment in the kitchen to make me feel better in general and better about my body.

I recently read something about how food can carry intention, espcially when it is made from scratch. This may be really vain, but I do think my chicken soup works wonders in my loved ones. Can anyone relate?

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Stephen

The only trap that I can see is the trap most people make by never breaking free from the brainwashing that they're plastered with morning, noon and night.

Then perhaps you should look differently. We humans are nothing like cats, but neither are we anything like cows. To assume we must fall into one of these two extremes is a mental trap.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Use mother nature as your guide. Humans got along quite fine without vitamin supplements and colonic irrigation until our 'intelligence' designed all these wonderful contraptions that we are slaves to. (All in the last 200 years)

Define 'quite fine'. The death and illness rates were a lot higher than they are now.

Your position has some merit, but you are looking at a complex issue in a grossly simplified way. One of the many things mother nature did, was equip human beings with enough reason to study and refine our diet (such as by isolating vitamins).

Nature's tool of choice is trial and error. It's worked admirably, but that doesn't mean a reasoned approach can't optimise it in places.

Originally Posted by Stephen

I think if you look behind the 'prime beef' and the 'succulent oysters' you will find a fat cat counting his money at the expense of your health and your wealth.

Do you really believe that there aren't "fat cats" behind the production of the pesticide-ridden, monoculture-grown, vitamin-poor vegetables on sale at your local supermarket?

"Oh, but you can buy organic vegies!" you cry. Yup, and you can buy organic meat too (as well as meat that is healthier in other ways eg. grass-fed rather than grain-fed).

Originally Posted by Stephen

If anyone is dubious about the quality of a vegan diet just look at the next elephant or horse, giraffe or rhino that passes your way. Oh! but where do they get their protein and calcium from....? Groan......

"If anyone is dubious about the quality of a carnivorous diet just look at the next tiger, seal, hyena or shark that passes your way. Oh! but where do they get their protein and calcium from." indeed! You can't just take the lifestyle of a completely different life form and assume it applies to human beings.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Do yourself, other species and the environment a favour and look around us at the natural world and its creatures.

Let's. Let's look at the closest animal genetically to humans; the chimpanzee. Guess what; it's omnivorous.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I guess you have to try it for yourself. I'm really trying, but every time I try, there's meat shoved in my face...I do eat more plant foods and eliminate most dairy, so I could probably try it for a month or so...

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I guess you have to try it for yourself. I'm really trying, but every time I try, there's meat shoved in my face...I do eat more plant foods and eliminate most dairy, so I could probably try it for a month or so...

I don't think it has to be an absolute leap. I believe Steve made the progression gradually.

If leaping all at once is too challenging, try (eg.) cutting back to one or two serves of meat per week for 30 days. After that you can reevaluate if you want to drop those 1-2 serves...

[Nova]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I had considered converting to a vegetarian/vegan diet until I stumpled upon a couple of websites that stated how many of the people on these types of diets, eating no animal prducts, tend to have deficiencies. I remember Vitamin B 12 and Vitmain D to be two notables. And the question is if a diet that doesn't include essential vitamins and minerals so that we're forced to take a supplement doesn't seem like it's really an optimal diet....so I don't know if it is indeed the optimal diet if it doesn't really meet all the needs necessary for living. How can you have a diet that doesn't supply everything your body needs?? Just food for thought.

Well, check out the harvard healthy eating pyramid. It is basically a summary of the latest research in nutrition.
Healthy eating pyramid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Food Pyramids: Nutrition Source, Harvard School of Public Health
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...thypyramid.gif

Look at it. Most meat eaters have it reversed. The main part of the meal is meat, with vegetables, fruit, nuts and grains as an afterthought. A vegetarian/vegan is closer to the optimal diet, but they still cut of the top of the pyramid. So it is going to be a healthier diet than that of the average meat eater. Yet a more optimal diet would be to add a little bit of meat/fish/dairy.

[Trustme]

great links Nova!
Thanks!
Volkmar

[Dharma]

NEWS FLASH! Meat eating now associated with Hitler, rapists , paedophiles, and mass indiscriminate murder!

ROTFLMAO!

[Andrew Brunelle]

That's what I was saying, it's not that I gorge myself in meat, I just think that you need to include some meat in your diet, at least enough to get sufficient, real B12, and not the fortified or supplemental version. I had a friend who was a vegan and all his teeth fell out. His gums became like a taffy. IT's all because he didn't want to change his way of life, even though it was killing him from the deficiency. So he went to China to study about meats, and he came out okay. Now he wears dentures and still can't eat steak as it will break them. He lost his virginity to a tree, so "tree-hugger" is not an understatement. He enjoyed nature a little too much, but there's nothing wrong with that now that I don't have to go on any more seven-hour nature walks...but he'll be okay...I hope.

[Lonewolf]

Yep it's pretty ridiculous to believe that humans are not designed to consume some meat at least; because primates are omnivorous, because meat has been part of human and pre-human culture for as long as anyone can measure back, because we have canine teeth (though not as big as a dog's). Many Vegans I have spoken to have talked about rapid loss of muscle tissue in their bodies, combined with aneama, lack of concentration and learning ability, physical malaise relating to malnutrition, chronic fatigue, the list goes on and on.
It just doesn't seem feasable for many people to follow such a diet, though fully vegan meals from time to time are probably a healthy idea.
The one great benefit I had from my recent vegan experiment was that I stopped farting and my poo didn't stink any more.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Many Vegans I have spoken to have talked about rapid loss of muscle tissue in their bodies, combined with aneama, lack of concentration and learning ability, physical malaise relating to malnutrition, chronic fatigue, the list goes on and on.
It just doesn't seem feasable for many people to follow such a diet, though fully vegan meals from time to time are probably a healthy idea.

Changing to a healthy vegan diet requires some nutritional knowledge and planning. I wonder how many of the vegans you've spoken to didn't take that seriously?

A big trap is to just stop eating meat and fail to replace it with sufficient vegetable protein (nuts, seeds, grains & legumes - in combination, preferably).

You can get everything you need (except probably B12) from vegan sources, but it requires a rethink of how you eat. And, at the beginning, you have to start all over at the Conscious Incompetence stage...