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| | #31 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
and........ Changing to a healthy vegan diet requires some nutritional knowledge and planning. LOL This is just cracking me up.....as if the majority of ominvores on their cancer inducing artery busting western diet of processed gunk sit down and plan their meals, lol. Oh! I forgot, we have the guidance of the western government food pyramids........groan
__________________ The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. (Thoreau) | |
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| | #32 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 229
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Well, the problem with the standard diet is that people don't plan out their meals, and then they wonder why they have health problems. The problem being described is someone who stops eating meat and doesn't think to eat more than one or two types of fruit or vegetable. And then the meat-eaters point and say, "See? I knew you couldn't last on that diet", and because this new vegetarian was somehow supposed to be an expert on vegetarian nutrition, the meat-eaters become convinced that a vegetarian diet isn't healthy. Anytime you do something that puts you in the minority and requires a conscious decision, people question your actions/motives, and they expect you to know all of the answers. Whether you prefer Free/Open Source to proprietary programs or eat a vegan diet, you somehow become THE example to your friends and family of an entire movement or organization. If you can't just answer "simple" questions, your inability becomes proof that you are wrong, or at least that they are right.
__________________ -- GBGames' Blog: An Indie Game Developer's Somewhat Interesting Thoughts Have a Facebook account? Play Sea Friends and protect real coral reefs while you do! |
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| | #33 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 1,130
| Quote:
Say someone on your "cancer-inducing artery-busting omnivorous diet of processed gunk" becomes vegan without planning what they're going to eat. Odds are they just end up eating a cancer-inducing artery-busting vegan diet of processed gunk instead. Then they get just as sick from a fat-rich and sugar-rich diet as the average westerner. And despite your ridicule, the average omnivore does obtain some vitamins and minerals almost exclusively from meat, fish, eggs and dairy (B12 is a big one). If they become vegan, and don't figure out how to meet those needs in a vegan context, they risk malnourishment (B12 is, again, particularly insidious because it takes a long time to show). It is irresponsible and dangerous to mocking the importance of nutrition in a vegan diet (or any other). I find it disturbing that you're more interested in scoring cheap points than in people's health. P.S. I added back in the important bit of text that you conveniently forgot when you quoted me (in bold).
__________________ When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created. When people see things as good, evil is created. When the way is forgotten, 'morality' and 'piety' need to be taught. -Dao De Jing, Chapter 2 Last edited by Keith; 11-20-2006 at 09:03 AM. | |
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| | #34 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
| less meat means longer lives Quote:
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| | #35 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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The study also includes the comparison between smoker and non smokers , Quote:
1 ) Maintain an active daily physical activities 2 ) Predominantly whole food plant based diet with little meat intake (preferably fish?) 3 ) No smoking and no excessive alcohol consumption Is there anything to add or modify on the list ? | |
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| | #36 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17
| Quote:
There have been links to articles on this forum which talk about the reverse correlation between being vegeterian and living long years. So, yes, I think you have been a little too fast with your list. | |
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| | #37 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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Likewise , eating a rich vege diet has been linked to decrease in heart disease rate, cancer and various chronic diseases . The proof is every where . Quote:
We are here to share knowledge about ways to promote longevity( yeah putting aside the ethical treatment of animals ) , lets not discuss in way that will increase our blood pressure ( at least to me ) Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 09:07 AM. | |
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| | #38 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17
| Quote:
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| | #39 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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If that's the case , then # 3 is contentious as well because we dont know how much exercise or alcohol consumption is optimal . As we know , Over exercise kills . I thought i have made myself clear by using the term "little/less meat" on # 2 like how the research termed it to get the correlation vs Vegan and general population. Oh well , you are more than welcome , it's just summary from a layman. Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 09:41 AM. |
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| | #40 (permalink) | ||
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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By the way , one of my favorite nutrition based doctors is MCdougall who treated his heart disease patients with almost or complete vegetarian/vegan diet . Look at what he says Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 10:40 AM. | ||
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| | #41 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Source
Posts: 82
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You know what I don't get? What this obsession with longevity is all about. Everyone (especially the media) is talking about living longer, while I personally couldn't care less about whether I live to be 60, 80, or 100. I'm not afraid of death! What I do care about is creating my best possible experience in the here and now, and that includes feeling great from a physical standpoint. Being strong, fast, agile, energetic, and so on. I don't really see what difference some extra 10 years will make when I'm 70 if I haven't made the most of my earlier life anyway. |
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| | #44 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 1,130
| Quote:
__________________ When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created. When people see things as good, evil is created. When the way is forgotten, 'morality' and 'piety' need to be taught. -Dao De Jing, Chapter 2 | |
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| | #45 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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More "absurd discovery " McDougall Vegetarian diet stops MS , now does any one here know MCdougall secret recipe & lifestyle plan ? oh wait it's freeeeeeeeeeeeee , help spread it around especially to those who are in the obese category Quote:
Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 12:38 PM. | |
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| | #46 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
Er Try and read #8 of this thread. You will see that your comments above are irrelevant, as I had already suggested a strong nuritional education in the first couple of lines.
__________________ The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. (Thoreau) | |
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| | #47 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
Then the mind thinks of all these things to justify the linkage instead of seeing the denial (that the choice of food and health are separate). Last edited by Dharma; 11-20-2006 at 12:33 PM. Reason: spelling | |
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| | #48 (permalink) |
| Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nidau, Switzerland
Posts: 1,179
| This is good. Very very good.
__________________ "It is with flexibility and ease that I see all sides of an issue. There are endless ways of doing things and seeing things. I am safe." Louise L. Hay Free Hugs Switzerland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2kArDKqnjo If what you read resonates with you, feel free to friend me on Facebook |
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| | #49 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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A little story about the fate of a giant in nutritional field - Dr John Mc dougall Quote:
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| | #50 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| | #51 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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Another giant in nutritional field : Dr Esselstyn Quote:
Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 02:56 PM. | |
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| | #52 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
| I was just trying to imply that diet and lifestyle change can be a powerful measure against chronic diseases . This is in addition to my own experience of healing my own prolonged gum disease and mild chest pain with plant based diet and i'm only 28 years old .
Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 03:29 PM. |
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| | #53 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 101
| Quote:
The Food Revolution Best, Joey | |
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| | #54 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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continuing with the story of the fate of Mcdougalll . ( A good story needs a good ending ) Dr swank revolutionary dietary approach against multiple sclerosis Quote:
Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 05:36 PM. | |
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| | #55 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,200
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An ancient story provides the food for thought about the relationship between diet and health Quote:
Last edited by escapee; 11-20-2006 at 07:16 PM. | |
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| | #56 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 1,130
| Quote:
And why quote only half a sentence out of context to create a strawman to laugh at when it agreed with you until you did that? Are you deliberately trolling? [edit] Hmm, looks like my ego got the better of me there. I won't edit what I said because I don't want to be disingenuous, but oops, sorry about that.
__________________ When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created. When people see things as good, evil is created. When the way is forgotten, 'morality' and 'piety' need to be taught. -Dao De Jing, Chapter 2 Last edited by Keith; 12-02-2006 at 11:22 PM. Reason: apologies | |
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| | #57 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The East Village, NYC
Posts: 15
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It is always amazing to me how quickly discussions about veganism can veer into conversations about murder, rate, and specifically Hitler and the holocaust. Fortunately the concept & term "Vegan" was coined in 1944 by Donald Watson, during the holocaust, thereby giving us a convenient cultural touchstone to compare the meat-eating practices that humanity has engaged in for oh, 100,000 or 200,000 years. If the Holocaust hadn't happened, what would vegans compare meat-eating too? I say this as someone who has tried veganism, understands the logic, but also find that eating meat actually does make me feel somewhat healthier. For those who try veganism and find they feel healthier, than they have discovered their own path of eating. But to take a fifty year old philosophy and blow it up into this moral argument that somehow tars all of meat-eating humanity with the brush of murdereres, rapists, and immoral beings, is quite a leap to make. What about people who live in places where meat-eating is a primary source of food, who haven't heard about or discovered veganism? Are they savages, immoral beasts? The whole veganism as "higher morality" smacks to me of the same arguments that the Christian right uses to justify their attacks on gay people for instance - our bible (or in the case of vegans, Donald's ideas, or for some vegans the actual bible serves as the source) can be interpreted to say that sex/marriage should be between a man and a woman for the sake of procreation. Therefore, gay sex/marriage is bad. Our moral code universally says that killing another human for anything other than self-defense is wrong, but it does not automatically follow that killing an animal for nourishment is wrong. Each of us has to find their own moral pathway outside of the handful of basic standards (don't murder people, don't steal, don't lie, etc), but the idea that once you find your own nuanced pathway outside of these basics, you should then hold everyone else to your standard, is illogical and presumptous. Would the world be a better place if everyone was vegan? Maybe. It would also be a better place if everyone spent their days lifitng people out of poverty, stopping the destruction of the environment, and teaching illiterate people how to read. So if you're vegan, or an activist, or a peace worker, that is fantastic and you will find yourself in the position of being a role model or inspiration for others. Attacking others for their opposing viewpoints however, regardless of whether the views seem illogical or wrong to you, won't convert anyone. Dropping bombs on people never changed anyone's mind, but leading by example does. Equating eating a hamburger with the murder of millions of people does no service for the argument for veganism. It's all about your intention, whether your eating meats or plants or whatever you're doing. |
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| | #58 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 101
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Jerry, You make some very good points here. I think the best point is to live as a role model or inspiration for others. Well put, and I try and live by this ideal. However, I would to make some comments on your post. I do not think most vegans would or should claim that we should have always been vegans. Therefore everyone who ate meat prior to 60 years ago would not equate to "savages, immoral beasts." Indeed, animal husbandry practices were far more humane and reasonable until the concept of agribusiness evolved rather recently. The comparison to concentration camps comes more from the concept that animals are now kept in such deplorable conditions that they literally spend their whole existence in unimaginable torture. This would not be true, say, for cows who spend their whole existence roaming freely in the alps until the cows are killed for food. It is not killing animals per se that equates to concentration camps. Second, in the past, we have not had an easy choice to be vegan because there was survival at stake. If we did not eat some meat (at least in most parts of the globe), we could have starved from calorie deficiency. There were certain cultures that were fortunate enough not to need meat to survive because of the vegetation surrounding them, but a lot did. That's fine. But, now we can no longer make the argument that it is necessary to eat meat to get sufficient calories. Indeed, research shows that a plant based diet results in greater longevity and less disease. The choice now is different than it ever has been. The truth is, whether most people wish to see this or not, eating animal foods is now a luxury -- but it is certainly not essential, nor ideal, for long-term survival. Lastly, you said Quote:
I can't say I am in agreement with you that everyone needs to find their own pathway when we promote torture and agony to other living, sentient creatures. I think it is our duty to be custodians of this planet and to care for creatures that we have placed under our control. It is a narrow view that the only "standard" is to treat humans well. For my purposes, I would much rather "lie" than be responsible for the death and torture of another living being. It is also not only about intention, but awareness. Many people do not intend to do harm, but through ignorance they can do harm anyway. One must be aware and informed as well. Just thoughts. Best, Joey | |
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| | #60 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The East Village, NYC
Posts: 15
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Joey, Thanks for your reasoned response to my post. I TOTALLY agree that the conditions most animals are kept in is quite abominable, and that's what I was talking about when I said people have to find their own moral pathway, and that's it all about intention. For some people, they aren't at a point in their own emotional development where the source of their meat matters to them and they'll eat any meat that's offered. For others (such as myself) I am quite a bit more discriminating about what meat I eat, where it's come from, how it's raised, and offering my own version of gratitude for the nourishment. For others, all meat consumption is against their moral standards so they abstain. Racism still exists, as does homophobia, misogyny, nationalism, and speciesism (might not be spelling that last one right, sorry!) I think we agree that no one's mind was ever changed through legislation or berating them. People are unbelievably set in their ways. My issue with the vegan approach of equating meat-eaters with torturers is that it goes from square one to square 100 without giving your audience an opportunity to catch up with what it means. In other words, because a vegan has already gone through your own transformation from meat-eater to conscious-eater (let's call it that for a moment, instead of vegan) they are un-intentionally or perhaps intentionally trying to shock Joe Meat Eater into thinking of himself as a torturer, one shade away from Adolf Hitler, rocket-shooting him from meat-eater to vegan in one fell swoop. All that this kind of resistance does is further entrench the vegan and him in different camps, rather than simply saying, "Listen, I learned a lot of things about where our meat comes from and how it's treated and what it's doing to the environment that are pretty shocking. Can I tell you about some of them?" Meat eating isn't just about survival. There's a pleasure to eating meat that many people don't plan to give up. And before we get into a converstaion about the ethics of murder for pleasure, we should make a complete inventory of every single piece of clothing, furniture, paper, electronics, transportation methods, medicines, cosmetics, packagaing, water sources, etc that we use, to see if any of the comforts and luxuries that we enjoy that have nothing to do with meat might also come from a supply chain that also includes murder, environmental degradation, torture, and agony - and perhaps the murder, torture, and agony might even be of the human variety rather than animal. I was shocked recently to discover how much of the precious gem trade is based on obscene treatment of human slaves, for instance. I had no idea. But I also wonder why we choose to use the treatment of factory raised farm animals as a euphism for the Holocaust when there are very real Holocausts happening all over the globe right now. There's no need for the moral substitution. It just seems to me to be a convenient way to elevate veganism to a position of moral superiority encompassing a much grander view of what not eating meat means, especially for vegans (and here I say carefully I don't know how involved anyone reading this is in world issues, that's my caveat) - especially vegans who aren't actively involved in stopping the human murder, agony, and torture that we all know is going on right now. It's like sitting in a room watching a human being tortured and saying "I'm not going to eat that hamburger because I don't agree with this torture, and so by not eating a murdered animal I am making my statement." Unless that person very very rapidly progresses to being involved in an active way in stopping the torture of the person, the not eating of the meat is really an empty gesture and borders on hypocrisy. The middle ground as I see it is a part of the big conversation that is emerging about the environment - and I'm using environment in the big sense to include physical & spiritual. It's time for people to take more responsibility for the moral and physical harm that is done by this mis-guided notion that we should have tons of meat available at all times (and fresh vegetables in NYC in December, and cheap tee shirts, and cheap computers, etc etc). All of this abundance at such a cheap price has a cost. I believe the day is coming sooner than we think that more people than we can imagine will wake up and realize that maybe they should be more concerned about where their meat (and clothes, and vegetables, and computers, and furniture, etc etc) comes from, that the source and transporation of these things has an effect on our moral/spiritual/physical environment. If 50% of the people in the USA alone started insisting that the meat they eat be raised humanely and slaughtered humanely, that would be a huge reduction in the amount of unnecessary suffering in the world. I also think (and this is a seperate conversation) that there is a direct link between the way we treat the animals we raise for the bulk of the meat eaten in the US and the way we deal with issues of poverty/racism/women's rights. Let's keep talking, this is great. |
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