Is Veganism Really the Optimal Choice?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Keith

Changing to a healthy vegan diet requires some nutritional knowledge and planning. I wonder how many of the vegans you've spoken to didn't take that seriously?

A big trap is to just stop eating meat and fail to replace it with sufficient vegetable protein (nuts, seeds, grains & legumes - in combination, preferably).

You can get everything you need (except probably B12) from vegan sources, but it requires a rethink of how you eat. And, at the beginning, you have to start all over at the Unconscious Incompetence stage...

A big trap of stop eating meat? lol

and........

Changing to a healthy vegan diet requires some nutritional knowledge and planning.

LOL

This is just cracking me up.....as if the majority of ominvores on their cancer inducing artery busting western diet of processed gunk sit down and plan their meals, lol.

Oh! I forgot, we have the guidance of the western government food pyramids........groan

[gberardi]

Well, the problem with the standard diet is that people don't plan out their meals, and then they wonder why they have health problems. The problem being described is someone who stops eating meat and doesn't think to eat more than one or two types of fruit or vegetable.

And then the meat-eaters point and say, "See? I knew you couldn't last on that diet", and because this new vegetarian was somehow supposed to be an expert on vegetarian nutrition, the meat-eaters become convinced that a vegetarian diet isn't healthy.

Anytime you do something that puts you in the minority and requires a conscious decision, people question your actions/motives, and they expect you to know all of the answers. Whether you prefer Free/Open Source to proprietary programs or eat a vegan diet, you somehow become THE example to your friends and family of an entire movement or organization. If you can't just answer "simple" questions, your inability becomes proof that you are wrong, or at least that they are right.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Stephen

A big trap of stop eating meat and then not getting enough protein from plant sources? lol
and........
Changing to a healthy vegan diet requires some nutritional knowledge and planning.
LOL
This is just cracking me up.....as if the majority of ominvores on their cancer inducing artery busting western diet of processed gunk sit down and plan their meals, lol.

No they don't plan their meals. And they're hideously unhealthy for it. Do you really want the same for new vegans?

Say someone on your "cancer-inducing artery-busting omnivorous diet of processed gunk" becomes vegan without planning what they're going to eat.

Odds are they just end up eating a cancer-inducing artery-busting vegan diet of processed gunk instead. Then they get just as sick from a fat-rich and sugar-rich diet as the average westerner.

And despite your ridicule, the average omnivore does obtain some vitamins and minerals almost exclusively from meat, fish, eggs and dairy (B12 is a big one).

If they become vegan, and don't figure out how to meet those needs in a vegan context, they risk malnourishment (B12 is, again, particularly insidious because it takes a long time to show).

It is irresponsible and dangerous to mocking the importance of nutrition in a vegan diet (or any other). I find it disturbing that you're more interested in scoring cheap points than in people's health.

P.S. I added back in the important bit of text that you conveniently forgot when you quoted me (in bold).

[escapee]

less meat means longer lives

Those studied were either vegans, who eat no meat, fish, eggs or dairy products, vegetarians, who eat eggs and dairy products, but no meat or fish, and occasional meat eaters.

Across the group, there was an average of 59 deaths for every 100 deaths in that age range in the general population during that period.

But completely avoiding meat was not the healthiest diet, the researchers found.

For every 100 deaths among vegans, there were 66 among vegetarians and 60 among occasional meat eaters.

[escapee]

The study also includes the comparison between smoker and non smokers ,

Amongst smokers, the mortality rate was 70% higher than non-smokers ( Do you believe in this correlation ? ), while those who took the most exercise reduced their mortality rates by more than 30%. Moderate alcohol made no discernible difference to lifespan, the researchers concluded.

Therefore to live a longer and healthier live .. here is my own summary

1 ) Maintain an active daily physical activities

2 ) Predominantly whole food plant based diet with little meat intake (preferably fish?)

3 ) No smoking and no excessive alcohol consumption



Is there anything to add or modify on the list ?

[bix]

Amongst smokers, the mortality rate was 70% higher than non-smokers ( Do you believe in this correlation ? ) ...

It does not matter at all whether or not I believe in it. Intense smoking has been shown not only to correlate with a decreased lifespan but also to cause it. Being vegeterian, as far as I know, has not.

There have been links to articles on this forum which talk about the reverse correlation between being vegeterian and living long years.

So, yes, I think you have been a little too fast with your list.

[escapee]

Likewise , eating a rich vege diet has been linked to decrease in heart disease rate, cancer and various chronic diseases . The proof is every where . and it doesnt matter i believe it or not .

So, yes, I think you have been a little too fast with your list.]

You are a little fast in reading my post .The second list is not a vegetarian diet but i appreciate your comment on my proposed list ..

We are here to share knowledge about ways to promote longevity( yeah putting aside the ethical treatment of animals ) , lets not discuss in way that will increase our blood pressure ( at least to me )

[bix]

You are a little fast in reading my post . Second list is not a vegetarian diet .

No, I am not. I did notice that your item 2 was not for a vegeterian. The reason I think you have been too fast with this item is that it is too vague. Just how dominant do the whole food plants have to be? How much meat is allowed? Noone here disputes the value of eating plants, so telling that in order to live longer you should eat plants is a bit redundant. Similarly, I can not imagine anyone disagreeing with the other two items. So, well, I guess, thanks for the summary...

[escapee]

If that's the case , then # 3 is contentious as well because we dont know how much exercise or alcohol consumption is optimal . As we know , Over exercise kills .

I thought i have made myself clear by using the term "little/less meat" on # 2 like how the research termed it to get the correlation vs Vegan and general population. Oh well , you are more than welcome , it's just summary from a layman.

[escapee]

By the way , one of my favorite nutrition based doctors is MCdougall who treated his heart disease patients with almost or complete vegetarian/vegan diet .
Look at what he says

"The truth is, this study of nearly 50,000 older women, ages 50 to 79 years, has only reinforced the well-known fact that “skinning your chicken” and “drinking low-fat milk” is inconsequential. The Women’s Health Initiative was not the first, nor is it likely to be the last, study to prove that what most people consider to be a “reasonable, moderate or prudent diet” is at best a trivial improvement over the disease-causing, standard American diet.

Proof that the low-fat diet intervention used in this study was ineffective is the report of an average of one pound (0.4 Kg) of weight loss after 8 years of dieting (compared to those not dieting). Furthermore, the women’s blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides, and blood pressures hardly changed after all that effort. Their dietary histories revealed that even though the low-fat diet group received “an intensive behavior modification program that consisted of 18 group sessions in the first year and quarterly maintenance sessions thereafter,” they continued to eat nearly the same amount of fiber, protein, red meat, chicken, fish, and grains. The addition of one more serving of fruits and vegetables daily may have accounted for the 9% reduction in breast cancer observed for the low-fat group.

People worldwide have been, and are still being, betrayed by investigators who spend taxpayer’s dollars on useless dietary research—and they should not be forgiven because they have always known better. Since the 1950s studies have shown that the more plant-foods, and less processed and animal foods, populations consume, the less breast and colon cancer and heart disease they will develop. Furthermore, there is no “safe threshold”—in other words, the lower the fat intake, the less the cancer and heart disease. In fact, long before the Women’s Health Initiative study was conceived, Dr. Ernst Wynder had published extensively on the benefits of the very-low fat (10%), almost vegetarian, Japanese diet for prevention and treatment of breast cancer. So why was a “moderate” diet, instead of the best one, tested?

My nearly 40 years of experience, working with hundreds of influential doctors and scientists, leads me to believe they have a very low opinion of patients and the public in general. They believe we are too stupid and too uninterested in our own welfare to make meaningful changes in our diet—specifically, to follow a plant-food based diet. When I suggest such powerful dietary changes, they respond with, “That’s unreasonable; no one will follow a vegetarian diet.” Even if they were correct, you and I still deserve to know the truth, so that this option for preventing illnesses and premature death is available to us.

You may have heard about the discontent among medical professionals. Many doctors are retiring early, and some are looking for other jobs, even becoming Amway distributors, rather than practice medicine any longer. They blame the paper work, low-pay (not true), and bureaucratic control over their practices for their misery. No doubt these are annoyances, but if they had job satisfaction, these dedicated doctors would not be quitting. If their patients stopped medications, lost weight, lowered their blood pressures, reduced their sugars, cholesterol, and triglycerides, and felt better with each monthly return visit, then every doctor would treasure every day at the office. But, as Jeff Armstrong told us about his doctor, “…out of all of his patients he has only had 3 or 4 that have been able to do what I have accomplished.” Can you imagine succeeding only three or fours times in an entire career spanning decades of hard work?

Now, besides regaining your lost health and appearance, you have a responsibility to show your doctors the true meaning of proper patient care. Help them understand that sick people take drugs and that their duty is to encourage people to become healthy and “drug-free.” If these potions made patients well, then there would be good reason to promote them. Anti-diabetic medications never cured anyone of diabetes and antihypertensive medications never restored to health a single person with high blood pressure – so why continue to place them at the forefront of medical care? Help your doctors, like Jeff and Allison (and may others of you) have, learn that a simple change to a low-fat, plant-based diet, some exercise, and clean habits cures the majority of problems he or she sees everyday in the hospital and in the office. With your assistance, honor, fulfillment, and success can be returned to the profession of medicine.

Any opinion ?

[Reyv]

You know what I don't get? What this obsession with longevity is all about. Everyone (especially the media) is talking about living longer, while I personally couldn't care less about whether I live to be 60, 80, or 100. I'm not afraid of death!

What I do care about is creating my best possible experience in the here and now, and that includes feeling great from a physical standpoint. Being strong, fast, agile, energetic, and so on. I don't really see what difference some extra 10 years will make when I'm 70 if I haven't made the most of my earlier life anyway.

[escapee]

I personally would like to live a fast, energetic, strong and healthy life until 90s .

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Dharma

NEWS FLASH! Meat eating now associated with Hitler, rapists , paedophiles, and mass indiscriminate murder!

ROTFLMAO!

But, but, Hitler was a vegetarian! I always enjoyed that bit of irony.

Gene

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Reyv

You know what I don't get? What this obsession with longevity is all about. Everyone (especially the media) is talking about living longer, while I personally couldn't care less about whether I live to be 60, 80, or 100. I'm not afraid of death!
What I do care about is creating my best possible experience in the here and now, and that includes feeling great from a physical standpoint.

I believe the two are generally linked. People who live to be 100 will do so because they're in good health. That same health should give them the energy and feeling of well-being to enjoy (at least most of) those 100 years.

[escapee]

More "absurd discovery "

McDougall Vegetarian diet stops MS , now does any one here know MCdougall secret recipe & lifestyle plan ? oh wait it's freeeeeeeeeeeeee , help spread it around especially to those who are in the obese category

This instructional material offers you a real opportunity for rediscovering your health and appearance. However, diet is powerful medicine. Do not change your diet or start an intense exercise program if you are seriously ill or on medication unless you are under the care of a physician knowledgeable in nutrition and its effects on health. Do not change medications without professional advice. When appropriate, share this message with your doctor.

The McDougall Program uses a pure-vegetarian diet based around starchy vegetables with the addition of fresh or frozen fruits and vegetables. If you follow the diet strictly for more than three years, or if you are pregnant or nursing, then take a minimum of 5 micrograms (mcg) of supplemental vitamin B12 each day.
Even though this instructional material is quite complete for changing your life, there is much more information to be found here on the McDougall web site in the McDougall books. Altogether with the web site and books you have over 2200 recipes to choose from. One of the most helpful and inexpensive experiences you can have is to view one of the sets of the McDougall DVDs. However, those of you desiring serious change in your health and medical care should consider becoming involved in one of the many programs at the McDougall Health Center. The 10-day live-in McDougall Program is where you become a patient of Dr. McDougall’s. This is the controlled and comfortable environment where you will progress rapidly to become medication-free, feeling great, trim, active, and in excellent health.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Keith

No they don't plan their meals. And they're hideously unhealthy for it. Do you really want the same for new vegans?

Say someone on your "cancer-inducing artery-busting omnivorous diet of processed gunk" becomes vegan without planning what they're going to eat.

Odds are they just end up eating a cancer-inducing artery-busting vegan diet of processed gunk instead. Then they get just as sick from a fat-rich and sugar-rich diet as the average westerner.

And despite your ridicule, the average omnivore does obtain some vitamins and minerals almost exclusively from meat, fish, eggs and dairy (B12 is a big one).

If they become vegan, and don't figure out how to meet those needs in a vegan context, they risk malnourishment (B12 is, again, particularly insidious because it takes a long time to show).

It is irresponsible and dangerous to mocking the importance of nutrition in a vegan diet (or any other). I find it disturbing that you're more interested in scoring cheap points than in people's health.

P.S. I added back in the important bit of text that you conveniently forgot when you quoted me (in bold).

Er Try and read #8 of this thread. You will see that your comments above are irrelevant, as I had already suggested a strong nuritional education in the first couple of lines.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Reyv

You know what I don't get? What this obsession with longevity is all about.

It's just a mental point of justification. "My way is better because blah blah blah." Its purpose is to ignore one's creatorship of one's health by blaming everything on food, when your health is a choice you make in the moment, as is the food you eat. The two choices are not linked, but the game is to link them so you don't see your creatorship.

Then the mind thinks of all these things to justify the linkage instead of seeing the denial (that the choice of food and health are separate).

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Then the mind thinks of all these things to justify the linkage instead of seeing the denial (that the choice of food and health are separate).

This is good. Very very good.

[escapee]

A little story about the fate of a giant in nutritional field - Dr John Mc dougall

Originally Posted by China study

when Dr John McDougall finished his formal medical education , he set up a practice on the hawaiian island of Oahu. He began writting books about nutrition and health and established a national reputation . In the mid-1980 John was contacted by St helena hospital in Napa valley cal, and asked if he would accept a position running its health center . The hospital was a seventh day adventist hospital; If you recall fro chapter seven ,. The seventh day adventists encourage followers to eat a vegetarian diet . It was an opportunity too good to pass up , and John left hawaii and headed for carlifornia.

John had a good home at St helena for number of years . He taught nutition and used nutrition to treat sick patients, which he did with fantastic success . He treated over 2000 very sick patients and over the course
of sixteen years . he has never been sued or even had a letter of complaint . Perhaps more importantly, John saw these patients get well . Throughout this time, He continued his publishing activity, maintaining a national reputation . But as time passed, he realized that thing werent quite the same as when the first arrived . His discontent was growing of those later years he says , " I just didnt think i was going anyplace, the program had150 or 170 people a year and that was it . Never grew . wasnt getting any support from hospital and we had gone through a alot of administrators"

He had small clashes with other doctors at the hospital. At one point , the heart department objected to what john was doing with heart patient. John told them ," i'll tell you what , i will send every one of my heart patients to you for a second opinion if you send'll yours to me" it was quite an offer, but they didnt accept it . On another occasion John had referred a patient to a cardiologist and the cardiologist incorrectly told the patient that he
needed to have bypass surgery. after a couple of these incidents, John had reached the limit of his patience . Finally, after the cardiologist recommended surgery for another one of John patients , John called him and said, "I want to talk with youand the patient about this .
I would like to discuss the scientific literature that causes you to make this recommendation"

The cardiologist said that he wouldnt do that , to which John responded ." why not? you just recommended that this guy have his heart opened!" and you are going to charge him 50000 and 100000 bucks for it . Why dont we discuss it? Dont you think it's unfair to the patient?" The cardiologist declined,
saying that it would confuse the patient . That was the last time he recommended heart surgery for one of John's patient .

Meanwhile , none of the other physicians in the hospitalhad ever reffered a patient to John. Not once .Ohter physicians would send their Own wives and children to see him but they would never refer a patient. The reason , according John :"


They would worried their patients would come to see me , and it happened all the time when patient would come on their own. they'd come to me with heart disease orhigh blood pressure or diabetes. I'd put them on the diet and they'd go back off all their pills and soon their numbers would be normal . THey 'd go to their doctor and say : "why the hell didnt you tell me about this before? Why did you let me suffer , spend all this money, almost die, when all i had to do was eat oatmeal?" The doctor didnt want to hear this ........

[bix]

escapee: A little story about the fate of a giant in nutritional field - Dr John Mc dougall ...

Your point? Do you