http://notmilk.com/

[joelyle]

Hi,
This site has been an eye-opener for me. I have recently moved toward a vegetable based diet vs. meat 'n milk. I feel great.

Do you believe this site exaggerates the risks?
I realize there are health issues as well as ethical issues. I would prefer for responses to concentrate on the health issues. Of note to me is having direct experience with some of the issues caused by milk: arthritis (myself as well as family members), autism (my daughter, I discussed the health issues from milk with her, and this of course, has caused her to perseverate on the risk of cow's milk: hence my asking your opinion), prostate cancer (my brother, father and grandfather).

I was a big milk drinker (loved the taste/was comfort food) am loving feeling better; should I keep my decision to myself or become a non-dairy evangelist?

[openeyes]

also check out this link:

http://realmilk.org/

"Back in the 20s, Americans could buy fresh raw whole milk, real clabber and buttermilk, luscious naturally yellow butter, fresh farm cheeses and cream in various colors and thicknesses. Today's milk is accused of causing everything from allergies to heart disease to cancer, but when Americans could buy Real Milk, these diseases were rare. In fact, a supply of high quality dairy products was considered vital to American security and the economic well being of the nation.

What's needed today is a return to humane, non-toxic, pasture-based dairying and small-scale traditional processing, in short . . .

A Campaign for Real Milk"

[joelyle]

I wrote about an eye-opener and the first response came from Openeyes

[escapee]

IMHO, The most obvious culprit for all the medical troubles experienced by modern world are caused by the nutrient deficient processed food loaded with faulty nutrients that human body cannot metabolize.

1) Trans fats
2) Lipid hydroperoxides ( by products of essential fatty acids due to heat processing...)
3) pesticides and other chemicals like heavy metals that have no role in human metabolism

Modern processed food and non-organic food also severly lack ESSENTIAL Minerals. ( Without sufficient minerals, Vitamins will not work! 300+ enzymes depend on the level of MG ! ). Experts estimate that >80% of American are deficient in Magnesium . WHO also estimates that more than 600 million of ppl worldwide are deficient in IRON . the essential nutrient that's required to transport oxygen so you don't feel like zombie all the time. Also making the situation worse was the deficiency of essential fatty acids (Omega 6/3) due to cook/fried food as these delicate fats are sensitive to heat, light and air . Essential fatty acids are the percursor of hormones, the main building block of healthy cellular membrane and etc.

ScienceDaily: Bioengineering To Prevent Iron Deficiency?

The authors say: “Iron deficiency is one of the leading risk factors for disability and death worldwide, affecting an estimated 2 billion people

Magnesium-Deficiency Catastrophe: The Magnesium Web Site
Conditions magnesium may help: Alcoholism thru Chemical Sensitivity

Brian Peskin is Brilliant, Truth about Brian Peskin, Essential Fatty Acids, Basic Essence, and Quantum Nutrition | Home Page | The Truth About Prof. Brian S. Peskin, L.S.E.

If you're to ask me if commercial milk is any worse than vegetarian French fries or vegetarian cookies loaded with damaged fats in causing illness. My answer is no, but that doesn't mean commercial milk is good . Natural whole milk , as with any whole food , is still better choice for anyone looking to improve their health.

Look for clue in Okinawan diet ( Omnivores ).

[Cron]

I have been a vegetarian for 28 years and a vegan for 12.

I would take anything I read on notmilk.com as an invitation to further research. Robert Cohen, the author of the site, has been caught putting up material that contradicts text book science. Nowhere on his site does he mention what his credentials are and I when googling him I see that his many critics ( which include vegan Registered Dietitians and Medical Doctors ) have the same complaint.

There are plenty of scientifically solid reasons to avoid milk.

There isn't any need for Cohen to make things up.

Again, I'm not saying his site is 100% BS, but before you believe anything you read on notmilk.com try looking it up in a second place.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Cron

I have been a vegetarian for 28 years and a vegan for 12.

I would take anything I read on notmilk.com as an invitation to further research. Robert Cohen, the author of the site, has been caught putting up material that contradicts text book science. Nowhere on his site does he mention what his credentials are and I when googling him I see that his many critics ( which include vegan Registered Dietitians and Medical Doctors ) have the same complaint.

There are plenty of scientifically solid reasons to avoid milk.

There isn't any need for Cohen to make things up.

Again, I'm not saying his site is 100% BS, but before you believe anything you read on notmilk.com try looking it up in a second place.

I'm early fifties, I live on milk and milk products. I'm 6 foot 225 lbs. Sometimes, when the surf is really pumping, good enough for me to be really fired up and inspired, I paddle out early morning, get a zillion waves, paddle in at dark, no food or water. Then I drink my milk, whey and hemp oil mix, maybe a handfull of dried blueberries, or some goji's, drive home to my georgeous wife and...its paradise. So to the scientifically solid, registered guy in his white coat and test tube set. Don't call me...and don't worry, I won't call you.

[escapee]

The longest living person in the world drinks milk. I always wonder what sort of milk does he drink. Is it Real milk, whole milk or skim milk ( 99% fat free with low fat soluble VIT). I think some people are putting too much emphasis on the avoidance of certain food group ( milk, meat ) that the real culprits ( as i mentioned ) continue to wreak serious havoc on uninformed individuals.

Tomoji Tanabe, born Sept. 18, 1895, took the title last January after the death of Emiliano Mercado Del Toro, of Puerto Rico, who at 115 was then the oldest human. Tanabe is in good health and drinks milk. He keeps a diary, avoids alcohol and does not smoke. [1] The world's oldest man, who is celebrating his 112th birthday in south-western Japan, has said he wants to live "indefinitely".

[The David]

Originally Posted by escapee

The longest living person in the world drinks milk. I always wonder what sort of milk does he drink. Is it Real milk, whole milk or skim milk ( 99% fat free with low fat soluble VIT). I think some people are putting too much emphasis on the avoidance of certain food group ( milk, meat ) that the real culprits ( as i mentioned ) continue to wreak serious havoc on uninformed individuals.

But does that make it healthy, is the question. That guy probably has some bad habits of his own, or at least has in recent years.

[escapee]

That guy probably has some bad habits of his own, or at least has in recent years.

I dont see that he has any bad habits, The guy doesnt smoke and drink alcohol. I can also guess he eats a well balanced traditional diet (less-processed ) rich in the right macronutrients and micronutrients that all have important roles in human metabolism. The question that really get me curious is what kind of milk does the centenarian drinks.

Some food for thought
How Much Do Hunzas, Vilcabambans, Georgians Cook their Food?

The Hunza

They eat very little meat (due to scarcity), but consume dairy products (including ghee). They don't overcook their food due to lack of fuel.

Vilcabambans

Vilcabambans eat root vegetables, maize, beans (such as soya beans), milk, eggs,

[Cron]

Originally Posted by The David

But does that make it healthy, is the question. That guy probably has some bad habits of his own, or at least has in recent years.

Exactly. Maybe he could have lived even longer or have lived his final years in better shape if he didn't use dairy products.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by Uplift

I'm early fifties, I live on milk and milk products. I'm 6 foot 225 lbs. Sometimes, when the surf is really pumping, good enough for me to be really fired up and inspired, I paddle out early morning, get a zillion waves, paddle in at dark, no food or water. Then I drink my milk, whey and hemp oil mix, maybe a handfull of dried blueberries, or some goji's, drive home to my georgeous wife and...its paradise. So to the scientifically solid, registered guy in his white coat and test tube set. Don't call me...and don't worry, I won't call you.

Amazon.com: Prostate Cancer: Books: Jane Plant

Amazon.com: The No-Dairy Breast Cancer Prevention Program: How One Scientist's Discovery Helped Her Defeat Her Cancer: Books: Jane Plant

Amazon.com: The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-term Health: Books: T. Colin Campbell,Thomas M. Campbell II,John Robbins,Howard Lyman

Good luck. I hope for your sake you are right

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Cron

Amazon.com: Prostate Cancer: Books: Jane Plant

Amazon.com: The No-Dairy Breast Cancer Prevention Program: How One Scientist's Discovery Helped Her Defeat Her Cancer: Books: Jane Plant

Amazon.com: The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-term Health: Books: T. Colin Campbell,Thomas M. Campbell II,John Robbins,Howard Lyman

Good luck. I hope for your sake you are right

Cron, please tell me your kiddin'. Luck? Hope? Whats that? No luck or hope involved. Take control of your life. Be certain. Those sites have got nothing to do with me. Forget biased theories and studies, come and see a real, live, most comprehensive example of nutrition. Chinese what? Is that what those Chinese olympic swimmers ate? Diet didn't quite cut it out of the test tube eh?

The experts told me 30 or so years ago, numerous times, that I wouldn't make it to 30, after they'd just finished testing me and telling me what an awesome speciman I was...when I then gleefully told them what I ate.

Now I'm past fifty and powering. Imagine by the time I'm sixty!



Come for an all day surf in the southern ocean. No problem, I'll shout you a milk and whey smoothie! But, when the pointers come to see who's in their territory, I hope you've got more than luck, hope and some paperbacks.

[joelyle]

...may I have your direct experience and feeling instead of other's experiences and studies? I am loving being almost entirely off of dairy. Stopping for a few days: I can feel a big difference. The way I have been explaining this to others is that a contrast is necessary. In my case, eating dairy was a daily thing since I was a baby. My family ate/eats alot of dairy and this has created issues. We are non-smokers. Obviously there are many ways to hasten the death of our physical bodies; dairy is just one of them.

Thanks for your experience.

[Uplift]

Joelyle, in my case, before I switched to predominantly dairy, I was trying to eat organic nuts, grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables. I was playing national level sport, doing my own weight training and fitness training as well, and surfing 3 -4 times a week. I just couldn't maintain weight, progress in my strength training, and became badly overtrained. Back then I began eating 20-30 eggs a day, meat, milk, cream, butter, a few nuts and grains and bananas. No other fruit and veg. For over 10 years. I felt virtually instantly deluxe, invincible, and it showed. I could train as hard and much as I liked, and began to grow heaps of muscle. Hence my earlier post about doctors tests. I would get comments about my deluxe health and fitness, blood tests etc, and then be told I was going to die when I revealed my diet. Later I changed because of moral reasons, and dropped all animal products, except those derived from milk. It meant upping my milk and milk products consumption dramatically, and took a while to find other ways to mimic the benefits of my other eating style. To get it right in my mind. Thats my unique experience.

I think the main thing was that it really clicked with me, not just physically, but mentally. And on a deeper level. I totally embraced it, deep down, I wanted it to work, and totally trusted my own feelings and results, despite what anyone said. And I still do now. When you know how you feel, and how you are performing, who cares what anyone says. I changed my other diet because despite what any one said, I knew how I felt...not the way I wanted to.

So I would say to you, trust yourself, listen to yourself. While you are feeling so good, you are right. However you choose to eat. Your expression through your mind is a powerfull, miraculous thing. You are happy with your choice, that's what counts, and gifts of this life are uniqueness and difference. I believe we are meant to enjoy, respect and celebrate ours and others. So, keep feeling so good.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by joelyle

Hi,
This site has been an eye-opener for me. I have recently moved toward a vegetable based diet vs. meat 'n milk. I feel great.

Another site is milksucks.com. MilkSucks.com: Got Osteoporosis?. There are quotes and references there, and it looks pretty respectable. I've been vegan for four years now, and to me dairy is even worse than meat on the scale of "things that are bad for your body".

Since you asked about our direct experiences -- after getting off meat and dairy, my digestive system had improved by a few orders of magnitude. As an omnivore, I had problems with constipation. As a vegan that became a distant memory.

[escapee]

Why is milk any worse than meat. Oh my god. Why would people continue to blame the problem on food that actually provide essential nutrients but not the non-nutrient food like Hydrogenated vegetable fats, rancid vegetable oil ( Lipid hydroperoxide ), pesticides and etc that has NO ROLE IN HUMAN METABOLISM. Can someone find a single function in which a human made hydrogenated oil performs on HUMAN BODY ? My answer is Inflammation in your artery (PLAGUE ), your arse, your gum , your breast and so on because your body cannot recognize it as a nutrient !

IMHO, The notion that meat, egg and milk cause cancer and heart disease is the biggest misinformation in the world. Nobody is giving a d**n about cholesterol , animal fats and animal protein until the advent of commercial vegetable oil, hydrogenated vegetable oil and commerical farming using chemical fertilizer (Mineral deficiency in crops and livestock) pesticide and food processing technology (eg: hotdog, processed meat, Refined carbohydrate & low fat ultra pasturised milk ) that denature or discard most of the nutrients. what does that tell us ? Meat still sucks ? It's more like widespread nutrient deficiency + ingestion of non-nutrient toxin like trans fats/Bad fats that are mainly responsible for premature expression of degenerative disease in modern world .

Always feeling tired ? you need more iron and zinc from the bioavailable source like ........ ( Fill in the blank )

Iron Deficiency Alters DMBA-Induced Tumor Burden and Natural Killer Cell Cytotoxicity in Rats -- Spear and Sherman 122 (1): 46 -- Journal of Nutrition

[escapee]

MilkSucks.com: Got Osteoporosis?.

The following site is much better in analyzing the problem of modern milk.

Milk: It Does a Body Good?

[escapee]

Speaking of personal experience, A 3 months experimental vegan diet adversely affect my family health believing that low fat, low protein will make us invincible and free of illness. How foolish was that .

My father partially lost his muscle strength and had muscle cramp/jerking all the time, my sister had a mentrual cycle disturbance , and i had poor blood circulation on my limbs and triggered symptoms that resemble restless leg syndrome. All of which were partially/fully reversed by eating a more healthy and balance omnivore diet (+ some supplementation) devoid of nutrient deficient processed food, sugary drink and deep fried fast food that we used to eat like crazy.

With hindsight, If i were to add in more high fat high protein ORGANIC legumes, nuts, coconuts ( for fat soluble vitamins ) , Use organic vege instead or inorganic vege in the diet perhaps the outcome would have been a little different.

The lesson from my experience? you can get very ill by eating a vegetarian diet that doesnt provide the essential nutrients in sufficient amount that your body needs on a daily basis.

FRANK TALK ABOUT VEGETARIAN, VEGAN & RAW-FOOD DIETS FROM LONG-TIME INSIDERS
Beyond Vegetarianism--Raw Food, Vegan, Fruitarian, Paleo Diets

Failure to Thrive--Six Vegetarian Problem Scenarios

You began your experiment with pure veganism enthusiastically not that long ago, and were thrilled to find that most or all of your previous high-profile health problems melted away like slurpy mango juice running down your chinny-chin-chin. Headaches, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, digestive ailments, respiratory problems, allergies, overweight: All gone. But now you're suddenly confused because all the highs have become lows: You're becoming tired and listless, hungry all the time, your sex drive has evaporated, you have difficulty maintaining weight, and you're no longer emotionally "buoyant" like the "you" you used to know and others used to like. You're wilted lettuce. What happened?

What are essential nutrients ?
Essential nutrient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CoolStuff]

^ That Failure to Thrive was terrible. It wasn't talking about anything, just made up some possible personalities.

Of course you should eat organic, but what other things do vegans or vegeterians have to watch out for? Other than B12.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by CoolStuff

Of course you should eat organic, but what other things do vegans or vegeterians have to watch out for? Other than B12.

I had to learn a lot about in/out, and nutrient availability (that is the amasing power of eggs). Is what you eat taking more out of you, in the effort to obtain nutrition, than what is going in. I prefer maximum nutrition, with minimal effort. Roughage goes through you for a reason. It can't be broken down, despite your body's best efforts. Thermal qualities of foods, also play an important role in metabolism.

[escapee]

but what other things do vegans or vegeterians have to watch out for? Other than B12.

Iron,
Expert estimates that 600 million -2 billion ppl world wide are iron deficient. Those (Omnivores) who consume predominantly white meat are already at risk of deficiency ( only red meat - Lamb , Beef, and maybe salmon containthe most bioavailable form of iron ). So it shouldnt be surprising that practicing veganism place you at greater risk of iron deficiency. Many silent ex-vegetarians i know dropped out of the diet due to extreme fatigue and weakness.

New Vegetarian Tired All The Time, Suspects Iron Deficiency

Zinc : THis is well known

Healthy Fat and fat soluble vitamins : Many vegetarians still think that saturated fats cause heart disease despite the evidence that there is no saturated fat in artery clog. If saturated fats cause heart disease we should all be dead by now due to frequent inflammation cause by fats (saturated ) stored in our body.

The atherosclerotic plaque is composed primarily of glycated LDL cholesterol, glycated proteins, glycated hemoglobin A1C and oxidized (rancid) polyunsaturated omega-6 triglycerides (linoleic fatty acids).

GLycated LDL : A sugar molecule attached to LDL

[Addict]

meat 'n milk

These three words right here sum up what I see as one of the worst mind-sets that is held by so many posters on this forum. It is one of the reasons I started my blog. Why on earth would anyone group dairy with meat as if they were the exact same???

-No other animal on earth drinks milk from another animal.
-We evolved for millions of years without drinking milk after infancy.
-Cheese, yogurt, etc. didn't exist for most of our evolutionary history.
-The majority of people on this planet are lactose intolerant.

I've read over and over accounts of people here that started reading about milk. They started to understand that it isn't good for you, that it isn't necessary, and that it can cause many problems. They read the literature and they finally came to the conclusion .... to become vegan.

What?!?!

I've said it before, but let me say it again: you do not have to become vegan to avoid milk. You have other options.

[sleepthought]

I drink a small amt of reg milk but mostly soy milk...my x3 a day of whey ppowder has enough moo product.

I do think cultured milk (buttermilk,yogurt) provides enough benefits on its own from the probiotics to outweigh most issues (unless you are lactose intolerant)

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Addict

These three words right here sum up what I see as one of the worst mind-sets that is held by so many posters on this forum. It is one of the reasons I started my blog. Why on earth would anyone group dairy with meat as if they were the exact same???

-No other animal on earth drinks milk from another animal.
-We evolved for millions of years without drinking milk after infancy.
-Cheese, yogurt, etc. didn't exist for most of our evolutionary history.
-The majority of people on this planet are lactose intolerant.

I've read over and over accounts of people here that started reading about milk. They started to understand that it isn't good for you, that it isn't necessary, and that it can cause many problems. They read the literature and they finally came to the conclusion .... to become vegan.

What?!?!

I've said it before, but let me say it again: you do not have to become vegan to avoid milk. You have other options.

True. People used to eat megaflora and fauna, and dinosaurs, now they dont. Inuit eat nothing like us, and survived in the harshest of environments. Humans adapt extremely well. It is our hallmark.

There are animals in deep sea that function entirely differently to us, so should we be mimicking them? Pigs are one of the closest animals when it comes to comparing our digestive systems, and they eat anything.

Some people are lactose intolerant, I and my family aren't. Some people are gluten intolerant. Some aren't. Some die eating peanuts, others find them extremely beneficial. Some people fry in the sun, some thrive in it. The problem is when figuring out what works well for you, assuming it must be law for everyone. I don't know for sure, but sometimes I think the whole thing is mental conditioning and choice.

I thrive on milk, I rely on it. As a personal trainer with considerable experience, where diet is a crucial part of the mix, just like exercise, it is important to figure out, and cater to personal difference. Or, just like advising a lactose intolerant person to drink milk, you may be advising a gluten intolerant person to consume gluten, and so on. Be happy with what works for you, and happy with what works for others.

[Addict]

People used to eat megaflora and fauna, and dinosaurs, now they dont.

I'm hoping this is a joke.

There are animals in deep sea that function entirely differently to us, so should we be mimicking them? Pigs are one of the closest animals when it comes to comparing our digestive systems, and they eat anything.

I'm not saying we should mimic any particular animal. We should recognize that we are indeed animals and that our bodies were molded by evolution. It's not something we can easily ignore. People reject natural things because they think they are completely removed from nature. Our bodies need sunlight, sleep, exercise, fresh air, water, and real food. In my view, consuming a food that is designed specifically for the infants of another species just isn't very natural.

Be happy with what works for you, and happy with what works for others.

I'm honestly not sure how different or how similar the dietary needs of humans are as a whole. It's obvious that some people can handle dairy much easier than others, but I have to wonder if it is an ideal food source. It puzzles me to think milk could possibly be the ideal food for anyone. But if it works for you, go for it.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Addict

I'm hoping this is a joke.



I'm not saying we should mimic any particular animal. We should recognize that we are indeed animals and that our bodies were molded by evolution. It's not something we can easily ignore. People reject natural things because they think they are completely removed from nature. Our bodies need sunlight, sleep, exercise, fresh air, water, and real food. In my view, consuming a food that is designed specifically for the infants of another species just isn't very natural.



I'm honestly not sure how different or how similar the dietary needs of humans are as a whole. It's obvious that some people can handle dairy much easier than others, but I have to wonder if it is an ideal food source. It puzzles me to think milk could possibly be the ideal food for anyone. But if it works for you, go for it.

Look at say, Indigenous Australians. They ate mega flora and fauna. They eat crocodiles and sharks...dinosaurs. Masai drink milk. Its integral to them.

I drink milk. I'm over fifty and in awesome health and fitness. I can't remember the last time I was sick. I played national level sport, and still train that way, it is ingrained in me, I love it. To be honest thats my test. That's how I rate eating styles. Ask any top athlete, they'll tell you how diet soon gets the full attention. We are all different, and its what I choose. Honestly, I can surf all day, and come home, do a full on workout, and whatever I like. It would be ridiculous for me to walk around thinking, 'I just surfed all day, I just did an awesome workout, people say I look like an athlete half my age, I drink milk...oh no I must be sick and dying.'

Just like it would be ridiculous for someone like that Mike Mahler guy to say, 'I am in awesome health and fitness, oh no, I don't drink milk, I'll die. He goes through a lot to get his protein though.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Cron, please tell me your kiddin'. Luck? Hope? Whats that? No luck or hope involved. Take control of your life. Be certain. Those sites have got nothing to do with me. Forget biased theories and studies,

You are going to miss out on learning many things in your life that you might find valuable if you judge books before you read them. FYI, none of those books are authored by animal rights activists, but by meat eating scientists.

Come for an all day surf in the southern ocean. No problem, I'll shout you a milk and whey smoothie! But, when the pointers come to see who's in their territory, I hope you've got more than luck, hope and some paperbacks.

Because you are strong now doesn't exclude that you have lifestyle factors which are limiting your from being stronger or setting you up over the long term to get sicker, weaker sooner as you continue to age.

[Lil Chris]

I enjoy my milk from cows injected with tasty Bovine Growth Hormone... Helps me grow big and strong... ;c)