how to live forever...

[williamhessian]

Originally Posted by songwriter

The artist quote... is was somehow a joke but somehow true because you continue to influence the world after your death.

Okey, but what is immortality? (I love to get the definition of words ).
Is it to "never die"... Dying is... losing your consciousness with no way back or so... so being immortal doesn't means you can not be like almost a plant forever... or even in comma. I think what we want to avoid is damage. If something was "very damaged" but alive... I don't think he would want to live forever... well, maybe yes... but as the damage went bigger...

There's a Greek Gods legend about it... I think some God punished some other or some man, by making an eagle destroy the man's chest and heart and when the man was about to die... the God gave to him a brand new heart then the eagle started again... so forever.

I explained before that i dont actually mean "immortality" in its dictionary defination. but it is the easiest way to generalize the idea of living far longer than we currently do.

and the beauty about the looking at this development as a possibility in the future is that as it seems to be projected, we wiuld have full control of whether we want to continue to become younger or live longer or if we would rather follow old age on its normal course to death.

there wouldn't be any Prometheus' bound to a rock and tortured by an eagle eating at his imperishable liver, because Prometheus could simply select to not continue. At least that's how it works in my glorified view of the future of immortality.

beocming very damaged brings up completely different problems altogether. hopefully by the time we have figure out immortality issues, we would have also figured out incredible advances in medicle science and therefore even "very damaged" would be repairable. but again, thats an optomistic speculation on my part.

first, we need to destroy coorperation.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by persephonevii

I don't think I would want to live forever. But I always thought living for only 70-80 years was a bit of a raw deal, I wouldn't mind living for a few centuries or even millenia before kicking the bucket. I always feel a bit miffed I missed out on historical events and eras, and that I would want to see well into the future too.

And if we lived for centuries we'd get miffed we didn't get to participate in ice ages and epochs. It's all too relative. Trees, dogs, flies and bacteria are interesting lifespans to try out.

I like Viktor Frankl's idea that life has no meaning UNLESS it is finite.

So I'd like to live longer, sure, that's fine. But literally forever?

How about someone lets me get started on the first few hundred years to try it out, and I'll decide later when I'm better informed :-)

[geekchic9]

I would want to live forever, but only if everyone else could, too. Every time I think about extending lifespans and being crynogenically frozen, I remember Faye Valentine in Cowboy Bebop -- so sad....

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by williamhessian

Boring? Wow. I really don't grasp the idea of quitting something as amazing and incredible as life because it is boring. I can't beleive people get bored at all actually. It doesn't seem to hard to search and find new things that are the oppostie of boring. Jim, no offense, but being bored is a lame excuse for not wanting to live forever. On the other hand, your 'all good things come to end' concept makes a lot more sense to me. Even though i disagree.

I didn't say that my life is boring, I just said that the concept of living forever (as in a million years) doesn't entice me. Let me rephrase... my stance is that my life is more interesting precisely because it is relatively short. If I'd have all of eternity ahead of me, that'd just be too many reasons to procrastinate.

If I'd live forever, my choices would loose all of their meaning and power. Instead of carefully picking which books I devote my precious time to, I'd have the time to read them all. Gone is the satisfaction of reading that exceptionally well written novel I chanced upon in the one bookstore I hardly ever visit...

Eternal life would also rob me of the honor of being remembered. Again, the notion of leaving some kind of legacy (big or small) is a great motivator for me.

Jim.

[williamhessian]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I didn't say that my life is boring, I just said that the concept of living forever (as in a million years) doesn't entice me. Let me rephrase... my stance is that my life is more interesting precisely because it is relatively short. If I'd have all of eternity ahead of me, that'd just be too many reasons to procrastinate.

If I'd live forever, my choices would loose all of their meaning and power. Instead of carefully picking which books I devote my precious time to, I'd have the time to read them all. Gone is the satisfaction of reading that exceptionally well written novel I chanced upon in the one bookstore I hardly ever visit...

Eternal life would also rob me of the honor of being remembered. Again, the notion of leaving some kind of legacy (big or small) is a great motivator for me.

Jim.

I am pretty sure you can be remembered without being dead. Hell, you can walk out of the room and the people remaining could remember what you have just said, or just done. Being remembered has nothing to do with death.

I do see your point about procrastination, and thats a valid argument. You might just not be suited for immortality. and there is nothing wrong with that.


I do not agree with choice losing meaning and power, we live to be 60 yrs, that doesnt mean choices we make now dont have any meaning or power simply because we have X amount of time left. Meaning and power holds relevance only in the current timeframe no matter where along the timeline it may occur, nor does it matter how long the timeline might be. Choices are still choices, 'what to do today' is still a question everyone has no matter if they are 5 years old, 50 years old or 500 years old.

I prefer to read the books that i like, and then if i have time to read them again. even with immortality i would still be reading the books i like, and hopefully finding more great books to add to my list.

Jim, you and i have very different outlooks on this subject. I look forward to hearing more from your point of view.

ps. i need to watch more cowboy bepop. i have enjoyed what i have seen so far.

[Mayo]

People are very divided in the question of immortality and the debate about it will be more and more main stream. In my own view the point of spiritual immortality is a fact rather than fiction, i personally have only to test some things in practice (OBE et. al.).

Now about physical immor(t)ality: yes!

Why? The sole reason that i don't want to pass the cycle of rebirth again. Personally i want to continue the flow of memory, thoughts and feelings that i have re-accumulated in this lifetime. To achieve spiritual immortality (continuation of thought) you really need to be able to have a continuous flow of experience and not fragmented and interrupt multiplicity of avatars.

How to achieve this? Clone therapy, hormonal substitution, nanotechnology, ... well it does not matter now if you are in your even in your early 20's if you are of modest financial possibilities. Clone therapy, nano therapy... all of them cost money, and a lot of it, even in 2050. they will cost a lot.

Want to achieve physical immortality? Then get rich and invest in different clone therapy and nano thechnology firms and participate in that companies actively, invest in new promising techniques, supercomputers and scientists.

How not to spend money: don't get your head frozen because then it will be only peace of crap that is only liable to get dumped into trash bin. You will never be able to resurrect dead tissue and esp. the spirit that will be long gone from the carcase, even if the science does get to resurrect dead tissue i don't know if "you" will reappear back in that shell.

[williamhessian]

Originally Posted by Mayo

Why? The sole reason that i don't want to pass the cycle of rebirth again. Personally i want to continue the flow of memory, thoughts and feelings that i have re-accumulated in this lifetime. To achieve spiritual immortality (continuation of thought) you really need to be able to have a continuous flow of experience and not fragmented and interrupt multiplicity of avatars.

good post. especially this paragraph. i agree.

now i need to make money and invest in immortality. smart.

[Sam988]

Answering JimOfferman; I seriously, really, can't grasp this line of thinking at all. Maybe because we're all different and some have more genetic predisposition to want to live forever than others, i don't know.
I'm sure that's the case, while some can admit death, others abhor the idea of having their consciousness/existence finished. I'm obviously in the second group. But there's nothing wrong with being in the first group, because that's just the way you are, people are different and variety is a good thing.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I didn't say that my life is boring, I just said that the concept of living forever (as in a million years) doesn't entice me. Let me rephrase... my stance is that my life is more interesting precisely because it is relatively short. If I'd have all of eternity ahead of me, that'd just be too many reasons to procrastinate.

You see, i'm exactly the opposite. There are so many things that i don't do now that i would love to do if i had unlimited time. I don't do these things now because there are other more urgent/important things to be done. And no matter how much time i have, be it 100 years or a million years, there's always something that i will want to do but won't because there's more urgent/important stuff to do.

If there was no time limit, i wouldn't have to think this way anymore and i would SOOOO much enjoy wasting my time in useless yet enjoyable stuff, since time wouldn't be an issue anymore.

An example would be playing online RPG games (like World of Warcraft, Everquest, Second Life, and others). I would spend like many many years just playing them without any guilt in my consciousness that i should be doing more useful/better things, because i know that i can do them all later and time isn't a problem.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

If I'd live forever, my choices would loose all of their meaning and power. Instead of carefully picking which books I devote my precious time to, I'd have the time to read them all. Gone is the satisfaction of reading that exceptionally well written novel I chanced upon in the one bookstore I hardly ever visit...

As i said before, i also can't grasp this line of thinking. I would be the complete opposite of this; i would so enjoy having limitless time. I would read books, like "that exceptionally well written novel" with so much joy knowing that many decades later when i forgot it i would be able to enjoy it all again.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Eternal life would also rob me of the honor of being remembered. Again, the notion of leaving some kind of legacy (big or small) is a great motivator for me.

Jim.

People can also be famous/acknowledged for what they do/contributed/genious/whatever in their life. There's no need to play the "dead-and-only-then-famous artist"

[Mayo]

BTW i have found a good book on age "reversal", will start reading it tomorrow after work.

The book is "Younger You" by Eric R. Braverman.

[williamhessian]

Originally Posted by Mayo

BTW i have found a good book on age "reversal", will start reading it tomorrow after work.

The book is "Younger You" by Eric R. Braverman.

Mayo, please let me know if it seems to give any good insight into that topic. because if it does i will pick it up as well.

[Mayo]

Ok William

[songwriter]

"Forever young" like the song could be a better desire... or "18 till I die"...
There's a lot of concepts mixed: invulnerability, immortality, longevity, lack of aging, etc.

by the way each day. aprox. there are 250000 births in the world and 150000 deaths. If you think the population is growing... just imagine deleting the deaths... that probably will cause people to have more children... even...

[Jared]

Just think of the compound interest!!

[WanderingOak]

I wouldn't want to live forever. If it were just me, I would get lonely right quick, with everybody else dropping dead from old age etc. If EVERYBODY could live 'forever', then unless we could figure a cheap, non-polluting way off of this rock, we would be heading down the road towards environmental disaster as we exceeded the carrying capacity of our home planet. What would be the point of living forever if you and everybody you knew was starving to death, or dying from thirst? I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I don't want to live in the Monkey House.

Besides, I'm not afraid to die someday. I figure those who are must have lived a bad life...

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by williamhessian

I am pretty sure you can be remembered without being dead. Hell, you can walk out of the room and the people remaining could remember what you have just said, or just done. Being remembered has nothing to do with death.

I wasn't talking about people remembering what I said before I left the room. Yes, in the strictest sense of the word, you'll be remembered. But I was talking about how we remember those who are no longer with us, through stories and sometimes legend. Perhaps you are right that the person being remembered doesn't necessarily have to be dead - but he or she would have to be absent for an extended period of time (specially if all who remember also live forever).

I do see your point about procrastination, and thats a valid argument. You might just not be suited for immortality. and there is nothing wrong with that.

Man was not designed to live forever. Nature could have evolved perfect organisms that never die of old age - but it didn't. We have been purposely programmed to die after a certain amount of time. Life needs death to succeed, so - in my mind - to cheat death is to cheat life.

I don't want to cheat life, I want to enjoy it. Every second of it, while it lasts.

I do not agree with choice losing meaning and power, we live to be 60 yrs, that doesnt mean choices we make now dont have any meaning or power simply because we have X amount of time left. Meaning and power holds relevance only in the current timeframe no matter where along the timeline it may occur, nor does it matter how long the timeline might be. Choices are still choices, 'what to do today' is still a question everyone has no matter if they are 5 years old, 50 years old or 500 years old.

I disagree. Choices are devoid of power and meaning if you have the time to try everything. If you have all eternity, you don't have to choose how to spend your time. You can just use brute force and experience everything there is to experience. The individual experiences then become meaningless... little more than ticks on your "done that" list.

I prefer to read the books that i like, and then if i have time to read them again. even with immortality i would still be reading the books i like, and hopefully finding more great books to add to my list.

Of course, I also prefer to read books I like and, if I have the time, read them again and again. But an important part of the satisfaction of picking up a good book is having to choose from the hundreds, or thousands, or millions even of different books available to me. Out of a million possible choices, I picked the one that made me chuckle at every other line.

Jim, you and i have very different outlooks on this subject. I look forward to hearing more from your point of view.

I think where we differ fundamentally, is that you seem to desire to experience everything there is to experience in the universe. I, on the other hand, am content with the few cherry picked treasures I find on my path from birth to death.

I just don't believe that endless time and endless freedom results in a more meaningful life. Just as creativity needs boundaries to flourish (just compare the brilliance of The Matrix to the relative mediocrity of Matrix: Revolutions), a life needs boundaries - a beginning and an end - to be meaningful.

Jim.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Answering JimOfferman; I seriously, really, can't grasp this line of thinking at all. Maybe because we're all different and some have more genetic predisposition to want to live forever than others, i don't know.
I'm sure that's the case, while some can admit death, others abhor the idea of having their consciousness/existence finished. I'm obviously in the second group. But there's nothing wrong with being in the first group, because that's just the way you are, people are different and variety is a good thing.

I can understand that my line of thinking on this matter may be hard to grasp. Humanity, in particularly our (?) Western culture, has a deeply embedded desire for eternal life. All major religions "lure" you in with some sort of promise of a life eternal. Immortality appears to be a de facto obsession for many of us.

I used to have a mortal fear of death and it has taken me quite some time to accept death as a natural part of life - mine as well as others. Death is the one certainty I have in this life and I've adopted the stance that I better not regret any of it, when death finally arrives. I suppose you could also say that nature is my religion - I see the force of nature (including the super natural) in everything. Nature means life. Nature means death.

If there was no time limit, i wouldn't have to think this way anymore and i would SOOOO much enjoy wasting my time in useless yet enjoyable stuff, since time wouldn't be an issue anymore.

An example would be playing online RPG games (like World of Warcraft, Everquest, Second Life, and others). I would spend like many many years just playing them without any guilt in my consciousness that i should be doing more useful/better things, because i know that i can do them all later and time isn't a problem.

That is precisely what I meant when I said that choice looses its power and meaning. If you had unlimited time, you would not have to choose to spend your time wisely. You could waste millennia playing silly games, since there will always be more time to do the stuff that matters...

If you desire to live forever, or just for an extended period of time, by all means do everything you can to realize that desire. I prefer to enjoy the precious little time I have and make the best use of it - even if that means I'll some times have to skip on a good game, so I can spend some time with my girlfriend instead.

Jim.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

. Choices are devoid of power and meaning if you have the time to try everything. If you have all eternity, you don't have to choose how to spend your time.

I don't see why that would be the case, so long as things continue to change. One moment will always be different from the next, never to be repeated (unless people learn to manipulate time), so taking action at the right moment will still have its merits, and you'll never be able to read EVERY book so long as there are people (and maybe AI) writing more excellent books for eternity. Unless/until you can read them more quickly than they're written, which would be an interesting possibility in itself.

Going beyond books/movies, there will be new forms of entertainment/life experience as the complexity of culture increases. Imagine what Da Vinci might come up with if he had a trillion times the thought power and would never die. Even without mental enhancements, incredible things could occur if the world's most creative people weren't limited to a few decades on Earth.

I don't know if physical immortality/radical healthy life extension will happen or not, but I'd be okay with trying it out. For now, I continue to live in such a way that I could die right now without feeling like I'd missed anything critical.

[williamhessian]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

I wouldn't want to live forever. If it were just me, I would get lonely right quick, with everybody else dropping dead from old age etc. If EVERYBODY could live 'forever', then unless we could figure a cheap, non-polluting way off of this rock, we would be heading down the road towards environmental disaster as we exceeded the carrying capacity of our home planet. What would be the point of living forever if you and everybody you knew was starving to death, or dying from thirst? I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I don't want to live in the Monkey House.

Besides, I'm not afraid to die someday. I figure those who are must have lived a bad life...

i appreciate the vonnegut reference.

lonliness is a problem you would have to solve prior to immortality i would assume. but i do also assume that if you were immortal, your friends and family would have that choice as well. its not like its a random draw or anything, once the breakthrough in science is made then we all have the choice to participate or not.

and over population and living conditions are problems that we have to solve even in our current lifespan, and even moreso if we start living forever. decisions would have to be made. in my opinion, we should already be making those decisions anyways.

environmental disaster is also a huge issue. something that i am very upset about, especially at my US government. again, i want to do something to fix it, and if was told i would live forever, i would feel even more compelled to fix the environment right away. because the world also needs to live forever (or as long as it is able)

[williamhessian]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I wasn't talking about people remembering what I said before I left the room. Yes, in the strictest sense of the word, you'll be remembered. But I was talking about how we remember those who are no longer with us, through stories and sometimes legend. Perhaps you are right that the person being remembered doesn't necessarily have to be dead - but he or she would have to be absent for an extended period of time (specially if all who remember also live forever).



Man was not designed to live forever. Nature could have evolved perfect organisms that never die of old age - but it didn't. We have been purposely programmed to die after a certain amount of time. Life needs death to succeed, so - in my mind - to cheat death is to cheat life.

I don't want to cheat life, I want to enjoy it. Every second of it, while it lasts.



I disagree. Choices are devoid of power and meaning if you have the time to try everything. If you have all eternity, you don't have to choose how to spend your time. You can just use brute force and experience everything there is to experience. The individual experiences then become meaningless... little more than ticks on your "done that" list.



Of course, I also prefer to read books I like and, if I have the time, read them again and again. But an important part of the satisfaction of picking up a good book is having to choose from the hundreds, or thousands, or millions even of different books available to me. Out of a million possible choices, I picked the one that made me chuckle at every other line.



I think where we differ fundamentally, is that you seem to desire to experience everything there is to experience in the universe. I, on the other hand, am content with the few cherry picked treasures I find on my path from birth to death.

I just don't believe that endless time and endless freedom results in a more meaningful life. Just as creativity needs boundaries to flourish (just compare the brilliance of The Matrix to the relative mediocrity of Matrix: Revolutions), a life needs boundaries - a beginning and an end - to be meaningful.

Jim.

Jim, i agree with you there.

the big difference i feel is that my goals are exponential and transcend the normal lifespan of a human being. not to say, that i have grand goals, but i dont limit my goals or desires to one lifespan.

plus, as a