[ADULT] Talking about menstruation is gross (was "menstrual cups")

[Beingist]

(Wow. Who'd have figured that such a seemingly innocuous topic like menstrual cups would have come to this?)

[James81]

Originally Posted by James81

My next question is this...IF YOU HAD TO TEACH ME that these are sensitive female issues, don't you agree that you have clued me into keeping those paradigms in place? How could I perpetuate a female issue if I am unaware that they are taking place to begin with?

To expand on this particular statement, I am reminded of a situation that happened to me when I was just a kid (about 7 years old). I was staying at my aunt's house after school one day, when I heard a knock on the door. I answered the door and there was her paperboy, who was a little black boy who probably wasn't much older than me. He asked me if my aunt was there, and I said "Yeah, just a second. I'll go get her."

Then, I turned and yelled out "Hey, Betty, this black boy here at the door wants you!"

When I turned back around, he was in my face. Like SERIOUSLY in my face. And he kept saying "Do you have a problem with me because I am black?"

Me? I was STUNNED. Absolutely, 100% totally STUNNED. Because up until THAT POINT in my life, I didn't know racism existed. And up until that point, I didn't have a single racist bone in my body. To me, everybody was the same, we just looked different and acted different.

But I assure you, after that day, I became aware of it in a big way. I became so aware of it that by the time I was in high school, I was one of the biggest racist bigots in school.

It took years for me to unlearn what I've learned on that day. And there's still remnants of it there (if I'm being honest) that I try to work through.

My point is this...I didn't even know how to be racist until I was taught how.

And I don't think that people know how to be any of these terrible things...until we are taught how.

Which interpretation do you prefer? Do you prefer that I become aware that black people might be sensitive to the color of their skin and for me to hold back on how I might describe them so as not to defend them? Or would you rather that I ACT AS IF I don't even know racism exists. I think it's time that we let go of our old pain, and stop teaching people how to hurt us.

[ZephyrusX]

No, Beingist's responses were quite respectful. Again, I wouldn't simplify this to a male vs. female thing. It was the fact that you kept saying that it was gross without seemingly acknowledging our posts concerning the historical and environmental institutions that was disrespectful. To simplify it, I heard people saying this:

James: This is gross!

Others: We don't think so. We find such interjections disrespectful.

James: This is gross!

Others: Are you listening?

James: This is gross!

You could have meaningfully participated in the thread by asking us why we felt that way and no longer making unnecessary interjections.

Originally Posted by James81

So it seems that you felt that I was forcefully imposing my interpretation in my replies. I'm also curious about the unwelcome part. Did you feel that that was mostly a female discussion and having guys (like me and russianrocket) interject the gross concept felt like an intrusion? Would there have been a level of participation that we *could* have been involved in this thread?

I honestly don't know, James. Sometimes it does seem like you deliberately come into threads with the purpose of offending people and then trying to make it seem like the issue is really about them.

Why didn't you acknowledge any of our posts that did touch upon the historical and political institutions that shame women into thinking their bodies are gross? Do you want to learn?

Originally Posted by James81

My question is this...knowing that...that I am what you may call "ignorant" of that empathic nature that you are craving from me....knowing that, do you think that I DELIBERATELY came into that thread just to perpetuate those things you have said that I was perpetuating?

Are you saying that attacking people with problematic attitudes rather than teaching them otherwise only serves to reinforce our social problems?

Originally Posted by James81

Does that make sense? Could you see how that these paradigms only *truly* exist because you are fighting so hard to keep them in place?

The thing is I wouldn't interpret the situation differently given my environmental and political space that I occupy. You might and I expect you to do so as I know you occupy a different space, but I think the cornerstone of empathy is the ability to consider the perspective of the other. To be honest, I don't see you emphasizing with people very often. To tell other people to ignore their environmental space and see the world as you see it... is well... patriarchy.

Originally Posted by James81

Imagine what might've happened if I came into this thread and the reaction would've been complete humor in response to my post. If I had said "oh man, menstruation is gross" and rather than the response that happened, you interpreted it in the way that, say, momo3bur originally interpreted it (see her response in the other thread). I bet we'd be having a completely different discussion right now.

[ZephyrusX]

On an unrelated note, I have a second paper due at midnight, so I won't be responding to any more posts for awhile.

[momo3bur]

I don't get it...I mean I DO get it, but I guess I don't see the big deal.

Granted, yes, it can be offensive for a man to say, "GROSS." But I think what you have to take into perspective is that they are men and they do not have experience with vaginal bleeding from a first person POV...simply because they have no vaginas.

So I think how you interpret the gross is very important. If it's meant to belittle you, call YOU gross, and is a direct attack on your character, femininity, and basically making you feel like a freak purposefully, then yes they deserve Xena to go all PMS on their ass.

However, I think many times (EXCEPT FOR CADO ) for guys this MAY be an uncomfortable area for an indepth discussion simply because they don't understand completely. I feel like many very mature men may get a little queasy by the thought of a period and what all it involves, not want to witness the cup emptying, but still understand it's natural and perfectly normal and also still be supportive in ways that we need them to be.

I do not want my male counterpart to be involved in my period anymore than necessary. That's just where I stand. If I need something and have horrible cramps, I would expect him to be there for me just as I would for him for anything; however, it does not bother me if he doesn't want to learn about my menses as long as he's not stupid and cruel about things (THAT would light the big IDIOT sign across the forehead and be means for relationship termination).

So I guess the silly little, "ewwwww cup full of period blood gross!" doesn't bother me because I understand it's not meant to say I'm a disgusting individual. It's just that it's someone else's bodily fluid. Body fluids gross a lot of people out. But everyone has them and everyone's aware of it, so just because you're disgusted by snot doesn't mean you will view someone as a lesser individual because they have a runny nose for a few days. Not a great example considering having a period is not an illness, but I think it's adequate.

Of course...this thread WAS called menstral cups...so the guys grossed out were either asking for it or just looking for a little entertainment. LOL.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by James81

My question is this...knowing that...that I am what you may call "ignorant" of that empathic nature that you are craving from me....knowing that, do you think that I DELIBERATELY came into that thread just to perpetuate those things you have said that I was perpetuating?

If I was totally ignorant of those issues, how would that be possible?

My next question is this...IF YOU HAD TO TEACH ME that these are sensitive female issues, don't you agree that you have clued me into keeping those paradigms in place? How could I perpetuate a female issue if I am unaware that they are taking place to begin with?

Believe me, you don't need to deliberately attempt to offend a group to be offensive, you have proved it time and again. We live in a racist, sexist, classist, homophobic world and as such we are all (unconsciously, for the most part) racist, sexit, classist and homophobes. The choice you have is to start examining your internalized prejudice and decide how you will deal with it. People pointing out that you just were insensitive, oppressive or ignorant is a good trigger for self examination.

When faced with that trigger, though, your response is systematically a variation of "Since I personally have never experienced as offensive (or demeaning, or sexist, or problematic in any way) the things that you describe as offensive (etc.), I refuse to take your experience into consideration and will keep on deliberately offending you."
That reaction is your choice. But don't be surprised by the consequences it bring onto you with your dealings with women (and other oppressed groups).

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by James81

To expand on this particular statement, I am reminded of a situation that happened to me when I was just a kid (about 7 years old). I was staying at my aunt's house after school one day, when I heard a knock on the door. I answered the door and there was her paperboy, who was a little black boy who probably wasn't much older than me. He asked me if my aunt was there, and I said "Yeah, just a second. I'll go get her."

Then, I turned and yelled out "Hey, Betty, this black boy here at the door wants you!"

When I turned back around, he was in my face. Like SERIOUSLY in my face. And he kept saying "Do you have a problem with me because I am black?"

Me? I was STUNNED. Absolutely, 100% totally STUNNED. Because up until THAT POINT in my life, I didn't know racism existed. And up until that point, I didn't have a single racist bone in my body. To me, everybody was the same, we just looked different and acted different.

But I assure you, after that day, I became aware of it in a big way. I became so aware of it that by the time I was in high school, I was one of the biggest racist bigots in school.

It took years for me to unlearn what I've learned on that day. And there's still remnants of it there (if I'm being honest) that I try to work through.

My point is this...I didn't even know how to be racist until I was taught how.

And I don't think that people know how to be any of these terrible things...until we are taught how.

Which interpretation do you prefer? Do you prefer that I become aware that black people might be sensitive to the color of their skin and for me to hold back on how I might describe them so as not to defend them? Or would you rather that I ACT AS IF I don't even know racism exists. I think it's time that we let go of our old pain, and stop teaching people how to hurt us.

Oh, God, James... okay, I'm not mad at you, so please don't read this like I'm mad at you. I'm just really stunned by this story. I understand what you're saying. You feel like a black person taught you to be racist by reacting really badly to a comment that you made innocently and unknowingly. I get that, especially since you were 7 years old at the time. It's a really nasty feeling, that somebody thinks you're bigoted and horrible just because you didn't know.

But like... okay. Can you understand that the black kid... first of all, that he'd known his race his whole life. That it was never invisible to him the way it was to you? That by the time you're 7-8, when you're a person of color, you've probably already experienced racism? From adults? By that age, I knew I was "different," because when my family would go out together, sometimes, people would give us dirty looks and sometimes they would even say things (mixed race family). The reason you had no concept of race was because you were part of the majority.

I just... please don't blame that kid. I know that you were too young then to have the tools to see that what he did was because he lived in a different WORLD than you did with respect to race. But he didn't put himself in that world.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

. To tell other people to ignore their environmental space and see the world as you see it... is well... patriarchy.

No! This is exactly my point!

To tell people to ignore their environmental space and see the world as I see it is....ignorance, bigotry, simple-mindedness, narrow-mindedness, or any combination of those things.

Why are you choosing "patriarchy"? That's EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Because I have a penis? Because it was a thread about female bodily functions and I am a man?

Why does my comments in a thread like that mean that I have issues with women, that I lack empathy, and all the other things you accuse me of? Why couldn't it just be a simple act of ignorance?

This is why I keep bringing up the "mirror" comments. That's why it's hard for me to take your assessments of me with any real seriousness.

[ZephyrusX]

Ah... It finally clicked. I wish I could taser you sometimes, James!

If we feel ashamed of our bodies, it is because we learn to become ashamed through the material institutions that regulate ideology. There is a reason why there isn't a hell of a lot of free thought in society; it is more or less predictable (or may be I'm just a helpless materialist).

Yes, people can overcome that shame, and consequently, you get people like these great ladies on this forum who are not afraid to speak out about their bodily parts and functions for the sake of others. The thing is though is that they more than likely learned to feel that way due to counter-institutions (i.e the feminist movement, liberal parents, sex education, the internet).

People do not learn to think in vacuums. That is essentially the point I am making in regarding environmental and political spaces that we occupy. If it is your position that we can simply change how we see the world on our own, you are wrong. You have a set range of options you can personal choose from, but essentially, the range is predicated by the environment place that we occupy. I am who I am only because there was a feminist movement, and that, is the reason why I am speaking back to you so vehemently. It is the only way that people will grow to occupy a space that is empowering and loving of their bodies and spirits.

We grow together; it almost seems conceptually wrong to speak of a truly individual human being.


... I really am leaving now...

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Are you saying that attacking people with problematic attitudes rather than teaching them otherwise only serves to reinforce our social problems?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by James81

No! This is exactly my point!

To tell people to ignore their environmental space and see the world as I see it is....ignorance, bigotry, simple-mindedness, narrow-mindedness, or any combination of those things.

Why are you choosing "patriarchy"? That's EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Because I have a penis? Because it was a thread about female bodily functions and I am a man?

Why does my comments in a thread like that mean that I have issues with women, that I lack empathy, and all the other things you accuse me of? Why couldn't it just be a simple act of ignorance?

This is why I keep bringing up the "mirror" comments. That's why it's hard for me to take your assessments of me with any real seriousness.

Because you have a history of belittling, demeaning, mild trolling, gaslighting and stonewalling (=refusal to empathize and hear) when we discuss women's issues. It's not one post. It's one of 12,000 in a clear pattern.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Oh, God, James... okay, I'm not mad at you, so please don't read this like I'm mad at you. I'm just really stunned by this story. I understand what you're saying. You feel like a black person taught you to be racist by reacting really badly to a comment that you made innocently and unknowingly. I get that, especially since you were 7 years old at the time. It's a really nasty feeling, that somebody thinks you're bigoted and horrible just because you didn't know.

But like... okay. Can you understand that the black kid... first of all, that he'd known his race his whole life. That it was never invisible to him the way it was to you? That by the time you're 7-8, when you're a person of color, you've probably already experienced racism? From adults? By that age, I knew I was "different," because when my family would go out together, sometimes, people would give us dirty looks and sometimes they would even say things (mixed race family). The reason you had no concept of race was because you were part of the majority.

I just... please don't blame that kid. I know that you were too young then to have the tools to see that what he did was because he lived in a different WORLD than you did with respect to race. But he didn't put himself in that world.

That's just it...for the longest time I DID blame that kid. And it all culminated into this big old ball of hatred toward a whole RACE of people when I was in high school. It was only when I STOPPED blaming that kid that I moved beyond it.

My point with that story is that we perpetuate our own suffering. This is a what came first kind of thing. What was the first act of racism? I suppose it was for us, as Americans, to bring Africans over here to be our slaves. I have no idea why a whole nation of people thought that was ok, but I suppose a nation of people who were willing to kick Native Americans off their land and believed in things like manifest destiny would do something like that and then call it Freedom.

But that is gunk that is over a hundred years old. I think that parents taught their kids to be racist (both white AND black) and, because of that, the racism perpetuates itself as it sifts down through the generations. We've grown, but it's at a ridiculously slow pace.

You might say that racism still exists, but I would call it "New Car Syndrome." The illusion of racism exists, and people go looking for racism wherever they can so that they can perpetuate their own suffering. Proof? Have you seen any slaves lately? Hello? We have a black president! A black person today, can come from absolutely nothing and can rise to the highest position in our land. I'd say that we, as a nation, have moved beyond racism. But people still see and want to see racism everywhere, so it still exists...mostly in pockets (such as the deep south).

So, no, I don't blame the kid. I blame his parents and his grandparents for holding onto anger for more over three generations. I blame the ♥♥♥♥heads who thought it was a good idea to enslave a nation of people and make them their slaves. And then, I blame anybody who thinks it's a good idea to perpetuate their prejudices and DEMAND that other people be empathic towards them.

The reason why (and finally I can get back on topic ) I don't exhibit a lot of empathy in this area because it's an area (just like racism) that is perpetuated by the people who unconsciously want to keep their suffering in place. Sure, your pain is real, but we've all suffered...we all have our own list of invalidations and injustices and whatever else we've heaped upon ourselves. It's not the world's job to be empathic to you. And, trust me, it's not just WOMEN who get the short end of the stick in our society.

I feel empathy when somebody loses a loved one. I feel empathy for those who are too sick or feeble or old to live a quality live. I feel empathy for anybody who has ever been abused or forced into doing something they don't want to do. I do NOT feel empathy for someone who complete misinterprets a post I make on a message board and then tries to make it out to by MY issue. Sorry, that just doesn't fly with me anymore.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I was thinking about this yesterday and even thought that it was a good idea for a moment. But then, doesn't that sort of beat the purpose of 'taking a stand'? Who are you taking a stand for? There are plenty of men and women who share James' opinions. Not just on this matter, but on other matters as well. If we simply ignored him, we would not be encouraging people to think differently.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

On the other hand, ignoring you and simply talking about menstrual cycles publicly may have the same effect. It would be encouraging some women to do the very thing they were told not to do; talk about their bodily processes and parts. And it would be giving them the education and advise they need. I'm not sure, to be honest. May be it isn't necessary to talk to you in order to take a political stand.

What do other people think? Does it actually help when someone publicly takes a stand against sexism, classism or racism?

For me it is about this; I will always engage anyone in a debate or let them know that they are making wrong assumptions (including James) when they are doing that.

I refuse however to fuel this type of debate that is going on with James right now, sort of a meta discussion about the discussion.

If you look back, I did mention that I wasn't pretending that it wasn't gross. That I really don't find it gross to talk about these things. And that's it.

Done fighting windmills...

[James81]

Originally Posted by aelle

Because you have a history of belittling, demeaning, mild trolling, gaslighting and stonewalling (=refusal to empathize and hear) when we discuss women's issues. It's not one post. It's one of 12,000 in a clear pattern.

Not really. Again, it's a clear pattern of a certain group of people who have that issue with my posts.

You should see some of the PMs and rep comments I get from people who greatly appreciate my posts here and the direct way in which I post. I get them ALL THE TIME. So, in a way, Zephy, I am a voice for those who don't want to speak publicly as well.

[James81]

And, despite all the arguing, I would LOVE for us to find some sort of resolution here. Or else this thread will just die (like the others where we've had this discussion before have) and it'll just crop up again just like it has here.

Bottom line is...everybody posting in here (including myself) has felt like someone hasn't listened to them. (And yes, every single thing you accuse ME of, I see in all of you who've made those accusations.)

If you have a suggestion on how to best resolve this, I'm all ears. My opinions are what they are, and they probably won't change much. My posting style is what it is, and it probably won't change much. Maybe you should just ACCEPT that? And accept that, despite your own personal issues with me, that this is who I am and that this is what I am, and that this isn't going to change and that if you can't handle that then perhaps you need to put me on the ignore list. Last I checked, I wasn't breaking any forum rules (other than perhaps derailing threads ). I never make personal jabs at any of you (but I've had some of you make personal jabs at me...here and on facebook).

Take ssandra's suggestion. Ignore me. Put me on ignore. Phase me out into oblivion. But if you can't do that, if you just CAN'T ignore me, then a big healthy dose of introspection is the key for you.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by James81

Bottom line is...everybody posting in here (including myself) has felt like someone hasn't listened to them.

Um. I don't feel that way.

[Lioness]

James, I did think your initial comments were insulting. I am not sure where you are coming from now.

I want to address the idea of what should not be discussed "in public". Since there is no way to make a thread private, I think your criticism was unfair. As others have pointed out, the subject matter was clearly labeled, and the most graphic posters added warnings. Still you felt the need to say "It's just gross that you publicly discuss it." By this logic, because we can't "close the door" and have a Ladies Only discussion; better that we remain silent and ignorant, than be "gross".

The value of the information in the thread far outweighs the risk of offending anyone's delicate sensibilities IMO. It may not have been your intention, but it certainly seemed mean-spirited and unnecessary to come onto the thread and declare that discussing menstrual issues is "five times more vile and disgusting" than talking about excrement.

We weren't just blabbing away about periods for no good reason. I don't think it's right to make such a condescending judgement about people who are simply trying to help each other.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

Valid point you make here, hope you don't get reemed to bad for making it (or me either for that matter).

There's no reason to be hostile towards anyone for having an opinion either way. I found this discussion, funny, enlightening and natural, yet still kinda gross too, but I don't have to deal with it, so that's probably why it seems gross to me. Don't hate men for that, ladies. Gutting a deer is kinda gross too.

Hey everyone, I think this thread might be close to dead now, but I wanted to quote this post made by Chris because I feel like this might be a more easily received explaination of what could going on with the guys from a guy's point of view. Thanks Chris.

Now y'all would be wise, men, to put your shovels down unless you're enjoying yourselves in a debate you will surely lose (sorry...but very true...we've so got the heads up here), want to play nicely, or want to sit still and listen. This is one of those areas where there is no fair competition between genders and you are sure to leave with a) an extensive understanding of menstration, b) a desire to buy a Diva Cup, or c) confusion and resentment.

[James81]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

b) a desire to buy a Diva Cup,

I gotta admit, I'm kinda curious what it would be like to have this debate with a diva cup on. Do you think it could work as a hat for a penis as well?

[cacheborn]

I don't see what the big deal is. It's a Health section and we have had discussions ranging from how to make feces less solid, bleeding while passing motion and so on. These are the problems that people face in real lives and they are interested to know more about it.

If anyone finds it gross, no one is making you read it at gun point.

[aelle]

It's just the right volume for a shot glass. We should make this thread a drinking game.

(I am wearing mine right now, btw).

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by aelle

(I am wearing mine right now, btw).

Me too! High five

[James81]

Originally Posted by aelle

It's just the right volume for a shot glass. We should make this thread a drinking game.

(I am wearing mine right now, btw).

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Me too! High five

I figured you were.

We'll continue this discussion in 3 to 5 days.

[ZephyrusX]

*jumps on cachy*

I wuv you!

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I don't see what the big deal is. It's a Health section and we have had discussions ranging from how to make feces less solid, bleeding while passing motion and so on. These are the problems that people face in real lives and they are interested to know more about it.

If anyone finds it gross, no one is making you read it at gun point.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by James81

I gotta admit, I'm kinda curious what it would be like to have this debate with a diva cup on. Do you think it could work as a hat for a penis as well?

Hehehe...you'll never know til ya try one on! Hey, the Diva Cups come in all different colors, too. You can get him an entire wardrobe!

I think you just hit on the fashion statement of the year, James.

[James81]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

Hehehe...you'll never know til ya try one on! Hey, the Diva Cups come in all different colors, too. You can get him an entire wardrobe!

I think you just hit on the fashion statement of the year, James.

That's what they look like, no?

To me that looks like a tiny little plunger. And OMFG, the possibilities if it actually WORKED like a tiny little plunger.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by James81

I figured you were.

We'll continue this discussion in 3 to 5 days.

My goodness, man! SMH! I think you enjoy punishment.

Originally Posted by James81

That's what they look like, no?

To me that looks like a tiny little plunger. And OMFG, the possibilities if it actually WORKED like a tiny little plunger.

That's it! LMAO!!! Dare you defile the menstral cup!?

I have officially experienced a wider range of visuals in this thread than any I've ever been in before.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by James81

Its ok that its disgusting. It doesn't make you less attractive or anything. Its just gross that you publicly discuss it.

Stop reading it if you find it gross.

Health section has lots of threads that are disgusting. Our own feces is gross but you discuss it when you have diarrhea and go to a doctor. No one here is claiming that it's dinner table conversation.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Stop reading it if you find it gross.

Health section has lots of threads that are disgusting. Our own feces is gross but you discuss it when you have diarrhea and go to a doctor. No one here is claiming that it's dinner table conversation.

You've never had dinner at my house.

[wanzulfikri]

I wonder what's the real issue here...I can only laugh hearing all the responses lol

[Mounds]

I think the reason a lot of men are uncomfortable with this subject is because of the way it gets treated. A lot of the guys who popped into this thread only did so to express their disgust. With attitudes like that, we'll be having the same discussion in 100 years.

As a man speaking to other men, it's OK. It's part of life and for the sake of the human race, let's hope it doesn't stop. Once the trend is broken, there will be no triggers to fire.

The only empowerment that is currently going on in this thread is win/lose.

The only growth happening here is the distance between the two parties reaching a resolution.

What I think would be cool is if women could talk about menstruation and men could feel comfortable with it. Achievable, but it takes that magic ingredient: flexibility.

-Tim