[ADULT] Talking about menstruation is gross (was "menstrual cups")

[neilpage]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

ugh, I swear, this is like a car wreck. You want to look away... but...

LOL! true.

I don't mean to laugh but that was funny ...
I'll just say, I will stick with the maxi pads.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by neilpage

LOL! true.

I don't mean to laugh but that was funny ...
I'll just say, I will stick with the maxi pads.

You think maxi-pads aren't gross?? Lemme tell ya...

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

lol cause I was the first one to come into the convo to comment about the topic being hard for me to read.

Okay, I see how that works, now.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

It's just the way the forum software works. The first post in the split-off thread sets the thread "originator". I did put in a big note that the thread was split off, etc. If I could change the "thread starter" I'd do that, but there's no way to change it.

And I did apologise to RussianRocket.

Yes, I see that, now.

There have been threads on circumcision, and on foreskin restoration. If you want to discuss it, feel free to start the thread.

Uh. No thanks.

(But I am curious to see if James startes a "How to field dress a deer" thread. )

[Angela]

I think it's very likely that because of people generously sharing information about new, more effective ways of taking care of ourselves, including things like menstrual cups AND openly talking about our feelings about a function like menstruation that has a profound influence on our lives, free from accepting the old stinky sneaker of someone saying it's disgusting to do so -- people who read even without participating out loud will get lots of value here.

So, no, it's not gross to talk about menstruation - it's wonderful, and I acknowledge you, Faerie Queen and Metamorphing Mama and others, for being a stand for it.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think it's very likely that because of people generously sharing information about new, more effective ways of taking care of ourselves, including things like menstrual cups AND openly talking about our feelings about a function like menstruation that has a profound influence on our lives, free from accepting the old stinky sneaker of someone saying it's disgusting to do so -- people who read even without participating out loud will get lots of value here.

So, no, it's not gross to talk about menstruation - it's wonderful, and I acknowledge you, Faerie Queen and Metamorphing Mama and others, for being a stand for it.

<3

I acknowledge you for helping me learn how to "be a stand" for things, and how to say "no thanks" to those stinky sneakers.

[Angela]

............

[ssandra]

I would like to suggest something.

Since James has (several times now) let us know that he isn't interested in an open discussion or exchange of opinion, just in his own opinion and the reactions that that causes in other people....

Why not stop reacting to him?

personally whenever I see him posting something that used to get me to react, the mental image I get is that of a 4 year old child saying POOP! just to see the reaction of the adults.

Ignore it and it will go away. Or at least, won't bother you and won't drag you into discussions that are completely pointless and useless.

[Agota]

I've only read the first page of this discussion since I'm not that interested in menstrual cups, but..

I've always seen guys who are grossed out by menstruations as immature, the same way that I see girls who are grossed out by male bodily functions as erection or ejaculation as immature. I mean, I get that it might sound disgusting when you're like in 7th grade (although I remember how in 7th grade me and my male deskmate had this deal that he gets to question me everything about my periods and I get to question his everything about erections and such..That was way more interesting than geography lessons ), but I just don't get how people who are adults and have had a decent amount of sexual experiences are still grossed out by it?

I mean, isn't it too awkward to handle living with your boyfriend or girlfriend if you have this kind of attitude? Obviously when you live with a girl, you might wake up in a bloody bed assuming her period started at night or it simply leaked through whatever she is using, you might get blood on various parts of your body assuming her period started while you were having sex and you might simply witness a true bloodbath assuming you two do have sex during period. You might also be required to do an emergency run to the shop in case she ran out of Tampax or Always. How do you deal with all that if you can't stand a normal discussion about menstruations? That just puzzles me

I'm probably so puzzled by this because most men who were close to me were either understanding (the older ones) or curious (the younger ones). I never had a problem discussing this topic with men if needed nor did they had a problem with it. I remember one guy was grossed out by few bloodbath jokes between me and my girlfriends, but we were all like 14 at the time, so it's kind of understandable

[James81]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

So your personal satisfaction and entertainment is more important to you than being respectful of others. And, more tellingly, your personal satisfaction comes from deliberately annoying/upsetting people.

Good to know.

You're free to interpret what I said in that way if you want, but that's not at all how I meant it. Isn't it funny how you all do exactly the thing you accuse me of doing? That is, NOT LISTEN...which I take to mean you just react without checking to see if you understood or not, thus leaving the person you react to scratching your head.

its not just about that amusement. That's just a minor part of it. The major part of it is that we are on a personal development message board, and I, personally, feel that we grow the most from feedback that makes us uncomfortable. Lord knows, I grew in leaps and bounds last year because discussions like this used to make me really uncomfortable, so, rather than blame the people who made me uncomfortable, I would introspect about it.

And I still do that when a discussion or something makes me uncomfortable. (My introspecting isn't over, Cado. ) Unfortunately, this discussion hasn't done that.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I would like to suggest something.

Since James has (several times now) let us know that he isn't interested in an open discussion or exchange of opinion, just in his own opinion and the reactions that that causes in other people....

Why not stop reacting to him?

personally whenever I see him posting something that used to get me to react, the mental image I get is that of a 4 year old child saying POOP! just to see the reaction of the adults.

Ignore it and it will go away. Or at least, won't bother you and won't drag you into discussions that are completely pointless and useless.

Thank you, Sandra. I think this is a good idea.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I would like to suggest something.

Since James has (several times now) let us know that he isn't interested in an open discussion or exchange of opinion, just in his own opinion and the reactions that that causes in other people....

Why not stop reacting to him?

personally whenever I see him posting something that used to get me to react, the mental image I get is that of a 4 year old child saying POOP! just to see the reaction of the adults.

Ignore it and it will go away. Or at least, won't bother you and won't drag you into discussions that are completely pointless and useless.

Let me add to this. Instead of responding to me when something I say upsets you, instead write what you really want to say to me in a word document and delete it. Then ask yourself why some bloke on a message board, who doesn't ever listen to you and doesn't understand you, has caused you to react so. I promise you there'll be some emotionally jarring and surprising stuff come up for you if you do that.

This is a good suggestion, ssandra.

[ZephyrusX]

I was thinking about this yesterday and even thought that it was a good idea for a moment. But then, doesn't that sort of beat the purpose of 'taking a stand'? Who are you taking a stand for? There are plenty of men and women who share James' opinions. Not just on this matter, but on other matters as well. If we simply ignored him, we would not be encouraging people to think differently.

If your purpose is to change James' perspective, yah... you are probably wasting your time, in my honest opinion. But what about the other participants and lurkers? My responses to James are more for the purpose of other readers more so than him. It is really a matter of picking out certain things he says and replying to it in a manner that may be beneficial for other people. Other things can be ignored (i.e the snark).

I think Butterfly Woman took the appropriate mod action. It wasn't right for these side conversation to derail a very helpful thread, but it wasn't right to completely silence this issue either as it is important.

I guess really it depends upon how emotionally involved you are. If you are genuinely angry and really flustered talking to James, it is probably a good idea to stop talking to him.

Originally Posted by ssandra

I would like to suggest something.

Since James has (several times now) let us know that he isn't interested in an open discussion or exchange of opinion, just in his own opinion and the reactions that that causes in other people....

Why not stop reacting to him?

personally whenever I see him posting something that used to get me to react, the mental image I get is that of a 4 year old child saying POOP! just to see the reaction of the adults.

Ignore it and it will go away. Or at least, won't bother you and won't drag you into discussions that are completely pointless and useless.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I was thinking about this yesterday and even thought that it was a good idea for a moment. But then, doesn't that sort of beat the purpose of 'taking a stand'? Who are you taking a stand for? There are plenty of men and women who share James' opinions. Not just on this matter, but on other matters as well. If we simply ignored him, we would not be encouraging people to think differently.

When you take a stand for something with the sole purpose of having people think differently, you defeat the purpose of taking (or being) a stand in the first place.

What you are essentially saying is that you know that lots of people think differently than YOU do, and that you feel you need to take a stand to get people to THINK LIKE YOU.

And that's perfectly ok, but that's going to be a DAMN frustrating perspective to take because people, take me for instance (), can be very stubborn, bullheaded, and tenacious about their points of view. (In my case, I am especially so because most of my beliefs have come from LARGE AMOUNTS of introspection, reading, etc. To change MY mind, you better bring your A-game, because it's very likely that I've seen and heard your argument before. Remember, before this year, I spent 8 years in a dead end job with LOTS of time on my hands.)

That being said, for me it's more effective for ME, to just let other people think what they want to think. If I disagree, sure, I'll throw my perspective out there, but if people don't latch onto my perspective and run with it, I don't *need* them to. I know that they are influenced by the interaction we've had (in the same way that *I* am influenced by the interaction we've had).

Of course, I love the art of debate/discussion, so I'll debate with someone until I'm blue in the face. But I can sit here and go on for pages with all of you on this subject and be perfectly content with you walking away unchanged by my point of view.

If you find yourself reacting to somebody, getting angry with them over their opinion, then THAT, my friend, is YOUR problem. (That's blunt, but it's the truth.) Or, rather, The Truth(TM). (Only *I* can know objective truth. ) (I'm also a third degree green-belt in SNARK. )

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by James81

If you find yourself reacting to somebody, getting angry with them over their opinion, then THAT, my friend, is YOUR problem. (That's blunt, but it's the truth.) Or, rather, The Truth(TM). (Only *I* can know objective truth. ) (I'm also a third degree green-belt in SNARK. )

Careful, though. The resident first-degree black-belt just recently got banned.

[ZephyrusX]

Not really. Let me word it another way. If we were to debate, each of us would be presenting evidence in support for one position, which the audience can then use in order to make his/her position and apply it in real life. Neither one of us has the absolute power to determine what another person thinks. At best, we can just influence the perspectives of other people, and indeed, I am doing that unabashedly as I believe my morality is correct and empowering for men and women. The goal isn't to change your mind; I know that is pointless. It is, however, my intention disempower your opinions in society as I don't feel they serve any higher purpose. Freedom of speech never implied that there shouldn't be conflict over ideas. Nor am I obligated to see the 'truth' as you see it. Indeed, I don't want to see the world as you see it. It is despicable.

If I were to simply ignore you, however, I may gain some benefit out of it, but then, I would be taking one more voice of the table that presents a different view that may be of benefit to another person as they interpret my words, and in reality, I don't think there are many feminist voices left (they all probably get very fed up!) And when it really comes down to it, you actually don't bother me that much. I feel very nonchalant when engaging in these type of discussions (besides the occasional run in with classist things). All it takes for me to 'take a stand' is a few quick replies in order to show other men and women that it is OK to assert your opinions and not to feel ashamed for them.

On the other hand, ignoring you and simply talking about menstrual cycles publicly may have the same effect. It would be encouraging some women to do the very thing they were told not to do; talk about their bodily processes and parts. And it would be giving them the education and advise they need. I'm not sure, to be honest. May be it isn't necessary to talk to you in order to take a political stand.

What do other people think? Does it actually help when someone publicly takes a stand against sexism, classism or racism?

Originally Posted by James81

What you are essentially saying is that you know that lots of people think differently than YOU do, and that you feel you need to take a stand to get people to THINK LIKE YOU.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

What do other people think? Does it actually help when someone publicly takes a stand against sexism, classism or racism?

Yes. It helps because more often than not, there's someone in the room who feels threatened but doesn't know what to say, or is too afraid to say it.

But I think being a stand can also involve not engaging with naysayers. Resounding silence can be as effective as dissent, as long as you keep doing exactly what you want to be doing.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Not really. Let me word it another way. If we were to debate, each of us would be presenting evidence in support for one position, which the audience can then use in order to make his/her position and apply it in real life. Neither one of us has the absolute power to determine what another person thinks. At best, we can just influence the perspectives of other people, and indeed, I am doing that unabashedly as I believe my morality is correct and empowering for men and women. The goal isn't to change your mind; I know that is pointless. It is, however, my intention disempower your opinions in society as I don't feel they serve any higher purpose. Freedom of speech never implied that there shouldn't be conflict over ideas. Nor am I obligated to see the 'truth' as you see it. Indeed, I don't want to see the world as you see it. It is despicable.

Ok, you mostly said what I just said in this part...right up until that last sentence. I am curious as to what parts of "the way I see the world" (quoting that because you can only know the way *I* see the world through YOUR perceptions of what I'm communicating, which is, ultimately, a litmus of things inside of you that cause you to see my particular world as despicable.)....But I am curious, nonetheless, as to what parts of my world as despicable.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

On the other hand, ignoring you and simply talking about menstrual cycles publicly may have the same effect. It would be encouraging some women to do the very thing they were told not to do; talk about their bodily processes and parts. And it would be giving them the education and advise they need. I'm not sure, to be honest. May be it isn't necessary to talk to you in order to take a political stand.

And that's just it, that's the GIANT BUTTON I saw in that discussion that I unabashedly went in there and pushed. It's the notion that discussion period blood is a political issue (namely in the area of perhaps women's rights or something in that arena?)....

You talk about me being unable to see YOUR perspective...but did you see MINE? How many times did I allude to menstrual cycles as being a "natural bodily process" (i.e. comparing it to things like ♥♥♥♥, piss, snot, etc.) Did you at all stop to consider that FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, I wasn't making my comments politically? I was merely making (originally anyway, until I realized that the button I pushed was the "political" button) a comment from the perspective of bodily functions...which are not always pleasant (whether you are a man OR a woman). ♥♥♥♥ stinks...piss stinks...snot is slimey and gross....and whether you want to believe it or not, menstruation has a very naturally not-pleasant side to it as well (odor being one of them....but I bet those cups probably reduce that so YAY for that. ).

And from YOUR perspective, the one that says that some men have this piss-poor image of women, that some men degrade women, that society as a whole still doesn't recognize women as equals (or whatever other political stuff is fueling what you said), what I said probably DOES sound horrible. I can see that if you view the world through the lens that women are being mistreated and invalidated in our society, then what I said can be interpretted as YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE of some narrow-minded ♥♥♥♥head with his invalidating and misogynistic opinions trying to stop a group of women from discussion a very natural bodily function.

AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, you read all of that political stuff in it because the frame of reference you are using (perhaps it's your default mode...the one that makes you feel like you have to take a stand against guys like me ). For me, it was an off-the-cuff comment on a particularly HUMAN body function. YOU were the one to interpret it as some anti-female thing. So it's YOUR interpretation of what you THINK is my world that you are actually seeing as despicable.

In other words, you think you are talking to me but you ARE LOOKING IN A GIANT MIRROR.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Angela

"Vampire rodeo."

I always preferred the term "Shark Week", but maybe that's my inner 12 year-old talking.

[JSB]

Maybe it's just a weird thing with men.

Strangely, I do find myself a little bit grossed reading or listening to discussions about menstruation, but I don't find myself grossed out when I'm actually exposed to menstrual blood or when I get some on me. So, the idea or thought is off putting, but in reality, it's nothing more than: "Oops. Let's put the sheets in the wash."

I don't pretend to understand it.

Originally Posted by Agota

I've only read the first page of this discussion since I'm not that interested in menstrual cups, but..

I've always seen guys who are grossed out by menstruations as immature, the same way that I see girls who are grossed out by male bodily functions as erection or ejaculation as immature. I mean, I get that it might sound disgusting when you're like in 7th grade (although I remember how in 7th grade me and my male deskmate had this deal that he gets to question me everything about my periods and I get to question his everything about erections and such..That was way more interesting than geography lessons ), but I just don't get how people who are adults and have had a decent amount of sexual experiences are still grossed out by it?

I mean, isn't it too awkward to handle living with your boyfriend or girlfriend if you have this kind of attitude? Obviously when you live with a girl, you might wake up in a bloody bed assuming her period started at night or it simply leaked through whatever she is using, you might get blood on various parts of your body assuming her period started while you were having sex and you might simply witness a true bloodbath assuming you two do have sex during period. You might also be required to do an emergency run to the shop in case she ran out of Tampax or Always. How do you deal with all that if you can't stand a normal discussion about menstruations? That just puzzles me

I'm probably so puzzled by this because most men who were close to me were either understanding (the older ones) or curious (the younger ones). I never had a problem discussing this topic with men if needed nor did they had a problem with it. I remember one guy was grossed out by few bloodbath jokes between me and my girlfriends, but we were all like 14 at the time, so it's kind of understandable

[ZephyrusX]

@ James

I do fall in with the camp that thinks that most things in social life are political. But that is sort of irrelevant.

The rest of your post is simply gaslighting. You are focussing upon my psychological state of mind in order to divert attention away from the actual topic at hand and your role in the conversation. It is a classic delegitimatizing technique, but I know better to participate in it. Lets stay on topic.

Gaslighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

@ James

I do fall in with the camp that thinks that most things in social life are political. But that is sort of irrelevant.

The rest of your post is simply gaslighting. You are focussing upon my psychological state of mind in order to divert attention away from the actual topic at hand and your role in the conversation. It is a classic delegitimatizing technique, but I know better to participate in it. Lets stay on topic.

Gaslighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've seen someone else accuse someone of gaslighting on here before. In both cases, the accusation was false, and the accusation might as well be considered gaslighting in it of itself.

[ZephyrusX]

@ James again

In my mind, this is an issue of basic empathy and respect. It is empathetic insofar as you are being asked to consider the historical and environmental spaces that women occupy. We have been told by social and political institutions that are bodily functions are `gross` and `disgusting` with the underlying implication that we shouldn`t speak about such things in public. We are asking for your respect insofar as we don`t want you coming into our threads and telling us that our bodies are gross. Whether or not you think menstrual cycles are gross is irrelevant for the simple reason that this isn`t about you. This is about respecting the historical and environmental spaces that women occupy in relation to their bodies. If for some strange reason you want to speak about how gross menstrual cycles are for you, go do so with people who would appreciate such commentary.

If you can`t do that, don`t speak to us. It really is that simple, but you keep beating the dead horse so to speak. This is disrespect. You lack basic empathy. This sort of behaviour isn`t something women should have to deal with as they do have the right to expect more respectful behaviours from the male figures in their lives. I think essentially, that is the message we want to give female readers. You can expect more respect from the male figures in your life. You know what. I think that is so important that I`ll risk sounding asinine and just say it one more time. You can expect more respect from the male figures in your life.

If it hurts to be told the your body is gross, it is not a laughing matter. It is not a trivial matter that you ought to just brush aside because it is `apolitical` (it is political) or was simply said òff the cuff` or `jokingly'. It is not a joke if it hurts. Don`t let anyone else delegitimize how you genuinely feel. Just tell them to get lost if they are unwilling to respect your feelings.

I think that is pretty much all I have to say on the topic. James, if you make a response, I'll respond to you if you actually address the the topic at hand. If you start drooling out more drivel about 'mirrors', I'm just going to ignore you.

[Criseyde]

Worth repeating:

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

You can expect more respect from the male figures in your life.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

@ James again

In my mind, this is an issue of basic empathy and respect. It is empathetic insofar as you are being asked to consider the historical and environmental spaces that women occupy. We have been told by social and political institutions that are bodily functions are `gross` and `disgusting` with the underlying implication that we shouldn`t speak about such things in public. We are asking for your respect insofar as we don`t want you coming into our threads and telling us that our bodies are gross. Whether or not you think menstrual cycles are gross is irrelevant for the simple reason that this isn`t about you. This is about respecting the historical and environmental spaces that women occupy in relation to their bodies. If for some strange reason you want to speak about how gross menstrual cycles are for you, go do so with people who would appreciate such commentary.

If you can`t do that, don`t speak to us. It really is that simple, but you keep beating the dead horse so to speak. This is disrespect. You lack basic empathy. This sort of behaviour isn`t something women should have to deal with as they do have the right to expect more respectful behaviours from the male figures in their lives. I think essentially, that is the message we want to give female readers. You can expect more respect from the male figures in your life. You know what. I think that is so important that I`ll risk sounding asinine and just say it one more time. You can expect more respect from the male figures in your life.

If it hurts to be told the your body is gross, it is not a laughing matter. It is not a trivial matter that you ought to just brush aside because it is `apolitical` (it is political) or was simply said òff the cuff` or `jokingly'. It is not a joke if it hurts. Don`t let anyone else delegitimize how you genuinely feel. Just tell them to get lost if they are unwilling to respect your feelings.

I think that is pretty much all I have to say on the topic. James, if you make a response, I'll respond to you if you actually address the the topic at hand. If you start drooling out more drivel about 'mirrors', I'm just going to ignore you.

I'll mostly ignore the Gaslighting accusation (that's a pretty serious accusation and is just more illustration of how distorted your view of me is).

In any case, in this post you say you want empathy and respect, and that you want that empathy and respect to take the form of recognizing the various political institutions in place that have essentially told women that their bodies are disgusting or gross because of menstruation. And you're essentially saying (if I read what you said correctly), that anything other than empathy towards THOSE STRUCTURES are unwelcome and deemed rude by females.

I also see where you say that it hurts to be told that your body is gross and that despite whatever manner it may have been delivered in, it still hurts and is a tender issue.

Before I go any further with my response, I want to be sure that I interpreted what you had to say correctly. Is everything I just posted here an accurate (or semi-accurate) description of what you just said?

[ZephyrusX]

I have a wicked desire to just keep saying it, but I suppose that would constitute spamming.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Worth repeating:

[ZephyrusX]

You are free to respond to those structures with something other than empathy, but it is just rude to forcefully impose that interpretation onto women who clearly say 'I don't want to talk to you'. It is equivalent to saying, 'No means no!'. You are free to think that menstrual cycles are gross; just don't come into a place where you are clearly unwelcomed and start talking about it. For what it is worth, I think there are plenty of women who feel the same way you do, so I wouldn't simplify this into a 'man' vs 'woman' thing.

Originally Posted by James81

In any case, in this post you say you want empathy and respect, and that you want that empathy and respect to take the form of recognizing the various political institutions in place that have essentially told women that their bodies are disgusting or gross because of menstruation. And you're essentially saying (if I read what you said correctly), that anything other than empathy towards THOSE STRUCTURES are unwelcome and deemed rude by females.

It depends upon the woman. I am mainly speaking out for the women who do resent being spoken to in this manner, but feel insecure about speaking out. I'm trying to establish a safe place for them to be heard.

I also see where you say that it hurts to be told that your body is gross and that despite whatever manner it may have been delivered in, it still hurts and is a tender issue.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

You are free to respond to those structures with something other than empathy, but it is just rude to forcefully impose that interpretation onto women who clearly say 'I don't want to talk to you'. It is equivalent to saying, 'No means no!'. You are free to think that menstrual cycles are gross; just don't come into a place where you are clearly unwelcomed and start talking about it. For what it is worth, I think there are plenty of women who feel the same way you do, so I wouldn't simplify this into a 'man' vs 'woman' thing.



It depends upon the woman. I am mainly speaking out for the women who do resent being spoken to in this manner, but feel insecure about speaking out. I'm trying to establish a safe place for them to be heard.

Did you just equate his comments to rape, or did I misread that? I hope I misread that.

[ZephyrusX]

How many times did we express dissatisfaction with James choice of words? How many times did he continue to say that our bodily functions were gross despite being clearly told that we didn't want to hear it? What sort of person blatantly ignores other people like that? Someone who is obsessed with his own experience and satisfaction?

I'm mainly alluding to the stark lack of empathy that James is exhibiting.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Did you just equate his comments to rape, or did I misread that? I hope I misread that.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

You are free to respond to those structures with something other than empathy, but it is just rude to forcefully impose that interpretation onto women who clearly say 'I don't want to talk to you'. It is equivalent to saying, 'No means no!'. You are free to think that menstrual cycles are gross; just don't come into a place where you are clearly unwelcomed and start talking about it. For what it is worth, I think there are plenty of women who feel the same way you do, so I wouldn't simplify this into a 'man' vs 'woman' thing.

So it seems that you felt that I was forcefully imposing my interpretation in my replies. I'm also curious about the unwelcome part. Did you feel that that was mostly a female discussion and having guys (like me and russianrocket) interject the gross concept felt like an intrusion? Would there have been a level of participation that we *could* have been involved in this thread?

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

It depends upon the woman. I am mainly speaking out for the women who do resent being spoken to in this manner, but feel insecure about speaking out. I'm trying to establish a safe place for them to be heard.

It's great that you want to be a voice for those women who feel they have no voice (or who are insecure). But I have a question for you that I would like you to entertain for a moment, but first, let me set up the scenario.

Ok, so in my world ("my" as in ME, James81), I have not experienced many of the things you say that women have experienced (bear in mind, I'm not saying that they don't exist, I'm just saying I haven't experienced those things). So, in my world, I am a bit unaware of what issues are areas where women have experienced these politically disturbing things (such as invalidation, repression, etc.).

My question is this...knowing that...that I am what you may call "ignorant" of that empathic nature that you are craving from me....knowing that, do you think that I DELIBERATELY came into that thread just to perpetuate those things you have said that I was perpetuating?

If I was totally ignorant of those issues, how would that be possible?

My next question is this...IF YOU HAD TO TEACH ME that these are sensitive female issues, don't you agree that you have clued me into keeping those paradigms in place? How could I perpetuate a female issue if I am unaware that they are taking place to begin with?

Does that make sense? Could you see how that these paradigms only *truly* exist because you are fighting so hard to keep them in place?

Imagine what might've happened if I came into this thread and the reaction would've been complete humor in response to my post. If I had said "oh man, menstruation is gross" and rather than the response that happened, you interpreted it in the way that, say, momo3bur originally interpreted it (see her response in the other thread). I bet we'd be having a completely different discussion right now.