reefs should not have been banned

[wolfgang]

curious what the forum thinks in general

[moonrambler]

Oh boy.

Do you have an opinion you want to put forth in public, wolfgang?

[Wax Frog]

Seriously? I'm asking because this is in Fun and Rec

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

Seriously? I'm asking because this is in Fun and Rec

Yeah, we maybe could move it to Gen & Intro -- wolfgang, what do you think?

Waxy, your av is freaking me out!

[Arcanum]

Reefs was one of most spiritually aware peeps on this forum and from that perspective much is lost to this forum. The least aware are encouraged, as long as they behave themselves, because we love to teach and feel superior, but the most aware refuse to be students and can be difficult to keep in their place, and they frighten us with their ideas. We don't like being frightened so we look for justification to kill the messenger, and of course we find it.

So why do they frighten us? Because the only thing we hate more than those who try to tell us the Truth is the Truth itself. The Truth is what we actually mean when we say God, and so what we hate most is God, and we don't even know it.

TIRED OF SPEAKING SWEETLY

Love wants to reach out and manhandle us,
Break all our teacup talk of God.

If you had the courage and
Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights,
He would just drag you around the room
By your hair,
Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world
That bring you no joy.

Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly
And wants to rip to shreds
All your erroneous notions of truth

That make you fight within yourself, dear one,
And with others,

Causing the world to weep
On too many fine days.

God wants to manhandle us,
Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself
And practice His dropkick.

The Beloved sometimes wants
To do us a great favor:

Hold us upside down
And shake all the nonsense out.

But when we hear
He is in such a “playful drunken mood”
Most everyone I know
Quickly packs their bags and hightails it
Out of town.

~ Hafiz ~

[BillyTheAdult]

I can't rep you again yet Arcanum, but this is pretty much how I feel about it.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Waxy, your av is freaking me out!

Channeling a little too much Beingist, eh?

[wolfgang]

I thought reefs was a fun character.

Thought it might be fun to see as a poll.
Hence the choice of the fun and games sub forum.
But maybe it's not all fun and games.

Move it somewhere if you wish mods, no matter to me.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

And practice His dropkick.

~ Hafiz ~

Did they have dropkicks back in Hafiz' day?

[Beingist]

I can't vote on this poll, because, although I, myself wouldn't have banned him, and although I will miss him now that he's banned, I can kinda see why the mods did it. He pushes buttons. To some of us, that's a good thing, because we understand that sometimes our buttons need to be pushed for us to eliminate our buttons. But not everyone sees things this way.

I'm just kinda sad that it had to happen the way it did.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Reefs was one of most spiritually aware peeps on this forum and from that perspective much is lost to this forum. The least aware are encouraged, as long as they behave themselves, because we love to teach and feel superior, but the most aware refuse to be students and can be difficult to keep in their place, and they frighten us with their ideas. We don't like being frightened so we look for justification to kill the messenger, and of course we find it.

So why do they frighten us? Because the only thing we hate more than those who try to tell us the Truth is the Truth itself. The Truth is what we actually mean when we say God, and so what we hate most is God, and we don't even know it.

TIRED OF SPEAKING SWEETLY

Guess he shouldn't have rolled down the bullet proof windows in the Maserati while riding with the Buddha that someone spotted on the path. Or was it that toe truck?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

curious what the forum thinks in general

The forum in general doesn't have all the information the moderators have -- members don't always see all of the conversations that resulted in the banning. So their opinion in the matter isn't going to be as informed as the opinions of the people who chose to do the banning.

That's what I think, in general.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Reefs was one of most spiritually aware peeps on this forum and from that perspective much is lost to this forum. The least aware are encouraged, as long as they behave themselves, because we love to teach and feel superior, but the most aware refuse to be students and can be difficult to keep in their place, and they frighten us with their ideas. We don't like being frightened so we look for justification to kill the messenger, and of course we find it.

So why do they frighten us? Because the only thing we hate more than those who try to tell us the Truth is the Truth itself. The Truth is what we actually mean when we say God, and so what we hate most is God, and we don't even know it.

That's not it at all. It's much simpler than that.

Let's say you want to play pro football. One of the rules in pro football is that you can't run over to the intended receiver while he's waiting to catch the ball and shove him to the ground. You do that a time or two, and your team gets penalties. Your coach tells you to knock it off. You don't like that rule, so you keep doing it. Your coach tells you to knock it off. You don't like that rule, so you keep doing it.

What is supposed to be accomplished by all this? What's the problem with complying with the rules of the game, which are in place for good reason?

The guidelines here really are not that difficult or restrictive. "No name-calling" is a primary one. I'm sure Reefs could have expressed his thoughts without the regular sniping and snarky comments, and he flat-out refused to stop doing it.

[Wax Frog]

Moony: Like Ndamukong Suh? Be every bit the aggressive and fearsome beast you want, just keep it within the whistles!

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I can kinda see why the mods did it. He pushes buttons.

It's not about pushing buttons. It's about flat-out refusing to follow the forum guidelines.

I'm just kinda sad that it had to happen the way it did.

You and me both. I usually don't talk about my feelings about these situations outside of the mod forum, but I will tell you that banning Reefs made me feel sick to my stomach. I had said I wanted to read through what he had posted overnight after his third warning, and found that he was at it again, making snide remarks about someone as though that person wasn't even there, not even bothering to direct his comments directly to the person.

And Steve said (I trust Steve won't mind my quoting him here), "A well-intentioned member will steer clear of the gray area after a warning. If the member is still strutting through the gray area with impunity after multiple warnings, that's an easy ban."

[Beingist]

Name calling = "pushing buttons", to me.

I understand that name-calling shirks forum guidelines, which is why I understand why he was banned.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

Moony: Like Ndamukong Suh? Be every bit the aggressive and fearsome beast you want, just keep it within the whistles!

Absolutely! That's an excellent way of putting it.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Name calling = "pushing buttons", to me.

They aren't equal. Pushing buttons doesn't have to include name-calling, or making snide remarks about people, or making negative comments about them in the third person.

We had a kerfluffle awhile back about this whole "third-person" business, and I think what it comes down to is while "third-person" commentary isn't a bad thing in itself, it's not so cool when a person or two or three start making condescending, snarky and personal remarks about an individual as though that person isn't even there.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Guess he shouldn't have rolled down the bullet proof windows in the Maserati while riding with the Buddha that someone spotted on the path. Or was it that toe truck?

Or maybe his family could sue Maserati for the failure of the bullet proof glass. After all, we don't know exactly how the hit went down.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Name calling = "pushing buttons", to me.

I understand that name-calling shirks forum guidelines, which is why I understand why he was banned.

I don't think that's all there is to the rule. Name calling will quickly degrade the quality of the conversation, the original topic will quickly be forgotten, and the discussion turns personal and counter-productive. It makes perfect sense to me on a personal development forum to have that rule in place.

Having said that I have no idea what he said or in what thread. I generally appreciated his input, but I don't think that should factor into any mod's decisions. If he really did continue with name calling after being warned, I think that makes the decision to ban him pretty easy.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

They aren't equal. Pushing buttons doesn't have to include name-calling, or making snide remarks about people, or making negative comments about them in the third person.

We had a kerfluffle awhile back about this whole "third-person" business, and I think what it comes down to is while "third-person" commentary isn't a bad thing in itself, it's not so cool when a person or two or three start making condescending, snarky and personal remarks about an individual as though that person isn't even there.

I understand. I'm not questioning the forum rules. True, pushing buttons doesn't have to include name-calling or third person references. To me, that's just Reefs' style--he was kinda rude, to be honest. Such helped me to deal with rudeness. But, again, that's me, and the forum rules need to consider everyone. I got it.

[Wax Frog]

I've tried to make a habit of practicing my "3 Ps" when interacting with others. I try to keep my comments positive, personal and in the present.

The second P is relevant here; if I want to point something out about someone else, rather than going the third person route I might try to use myself as a stand-in, couching my observations in terms of something I see in myself.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

It makes perfect sense to me on a personal development forum to have that rule in place.

Me, too, which is why I can't vote (there's no option for my position).

[MariconesUnited]

What is your position Beingist? My option isn't in there either, so I'm voting ''I have no idea why or how so I can't comment''

[Wax Frog]

This still being F&R, I'm actually more partial to wondering if I should incorporate Wolfgang's avatar into my current one! Maybe turn it into a Midnight-style eyepatch

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

This still being F&R, I'm actually more partial to wondering if I should incorporate Wolfgang's avatar into my current one! Maybe turn it into a Midnight-style eyepatch

You mean, Midnoit?



Edit: ooh, I hope that's not considered name-calling

[ChrisGinsburg]

I too think it was quite a loss to the forum but I also do understand the ban. I'm not sure where the number of warnings turns into a ban but hopefully I'm not next. In any case, even though much of what I talk about these days isn't actually about 'personal development' per se, I can see where someone who ruffles feathers is actually more helpful than a group of people who help folks stay inside their comfy boxes. I don't actually expect a forum run by a private individual to bend their rules though so in the end I suppose I don't actually have anything to say, heh.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Beingist

You mean, Midnoit?



Edit: ooh, I hope that's not considered name-calling

If stuff like that's a bannable offense, I'm in some serious chronological back-debt here!

[ZephyrusX]

I can't vote as I never saw what he did to get warnings and then a ban. I wanted to reply to this though.

Originally Posted by Chris

I can see where someone who ruffles feathers is actually more helpful than a group of people who help folks stay inside their comfy boxes.

I think you can ruffle feathers and push people out of their comfort zones without being condescending and rude. I doubt the mods banned him simply because he had strong opinions.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

If stuff like that's a bannable offense, I'm in some serious chronological back-debt here!

Maybe we should start a "Should Wax Frog Be Banned" thread now, before it's too late?